RGB for n00bs: a few questions [Archive]

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Oobgarm

08-07-2006, 10:45 AM

So, after all this talk about RGB, I have found myself curious about it. I kinda feel dirty for saying it.

I bought a decent 17" Samsung monitor (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00005RWGR/102-3795188-8354502?v=glance&n=172282) over the weekend at a thrift for a paltry $5. It's a fairly nice monitor, as I've used one before, and I noticed that it has analog RGB input on the back. I'd assume I'd be good to go with it and not have to buy anything else? I'm not wanting to jump off and go with anything more expensive, upscan/etc. It's a cheap monitor and I'd like for it to be a cheap RGB solution.

I'd want to try these machines with it:

Atari 2600
NES
SNES
Genesis
PSX
PS2
TG-16

What's needed to get this things up and going, other than cabling? I don't think a couple of them will do it anyway, but I really don't know what I'm talking about here. :)

Am I really going to notice that much of a difference, honestly?

I'm sure that these questions have all been asked before, but it's a real chore to have to sift through 5+ pages of forum search results to find it, let alone the rest of the intarweb. I did check gamesx.com (http://www.gamesx.com), but it's kinda hard for me to swallow all of that info at once.

I thank you all in advance for your input!

mezrabad

08-07-2006, 11:00 AM

I dont' think you can do it with the Atari 2600 or with the NES. The NES has been done, but it's been through the union of a VS. arcade graphics board and a NES console. There's a thread around here about it.

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=75116&highlight=nes+rgb

I did the Sony monitor thing too (PVM 25") and it is beautiful, only I haven't gotten a single system to work in RGB yet. The S-Video alone has kept me happy for months. (and I've been too busy to make/find/purchase RGB cables.)

Hang in there. If you are able to buy cables from anyone, please let me know as I've hit dead-end and "plan" on making them myself.

Oh and what does your RGB input look like? 25 pins?

Jibbajaba

08-07-2006, 11:03 AM

I can't really answer any set-up questions( I'll leave that to Anthony1), but YES, you will notice the difference. I have been to Mr. 1's house to see RGB first hand, and it is by far the best way to play older consoles. You just need to buy or make the appropriate cables to play your systems.

Atari 2600 <--- I don't think you can RGB mod this.
NES <--- Not sure you can play this in RGB...
SNES <--- LINK (http://www.goatstore.com/info.php?id=221615)
Genesis <--- LINK (http://cgi.ebay.com/Stereo-SEGA-Mega-drive-Genesis-RGB-Scart-megadrive-AV_W0QQitemZ220004003896QQihZ012QQcategoryZ3642QQc mdZViewItem)
PSX <--- LINK (http://www.lik-sang.com/info.php?category=0&products_id=266&PHPSESSID=a6d)
PS2 <--- Newer system, so play it in HD, or try using the RGB cable linked to above.
TG-16 <--- Requires system modding.

Chris

CartCollector

08-07-2006, 11:24 AM

Looks like you're going to need an upscan converter.

A VGA monitor will not work. With only a few exceptions, a VGA monitor will not synchronize with the video signal from a game console. Check your monitor user guide - it will list the supported frequencies. Current VGA monitors have a minimum horizontal scan rate of about 30kHz, where all game consoles output 15kHz.

And that Samsung you've got there has a minimum horizontal scan rate of 30kHz. Check the technical details on the website you've provided.

Your only solution is to get an upscan converter, such as the XRGB2+ (http://www.micomsoft.co.jp/xrgb-2plus_function.htm). By the way, the price listed there is about $265 USD. You might be able to find one on eBay, but don't expect paying below $200. Ask Anthony1 about his experience.

Oobgarm

08-07-2006, 11:34 AM

Oh and what does your RGB input look like? 25 pins?

Turns out I have RGBHV inputs on the monitor.

Does this suck?

Oobgarm

08-07-2006, 11:38 AM

Mayhem

08-07-2006, 11:49 AM

This is why being in Europe is good sometimes. It would almost be cheaper buying a cheap TV from here with RGB scart inputs with a stepup transformer than getting that piece of hardware.

(and most TVs here now support NTSC natively so you wouldn't have any problems using it for almost any console that doesn't need RF)

jajaja

08-07-2006, 11:57 AM

All NES from France have RGB only :)

mills

08-07-2006, 12:01 PM

if I get those snes cables from GOAT can I just plug and play? My TV has RGB input on the back i bought it in 2005.

erehwon

08-07-2006, 01:40 PM

So are there any cheap options for a RGB monitor/TV? I would love to get monitor or TV that could support RGB, but I'm not able to spend a ton right now. I'm thinking I might just have to wait till I have a good job and import a tv from Europe.

By the way, what are the best video options for the snes, genesis, and saturn in the US? I'm gaming currently on a 13" tv in my room with component and svideo inputs. There's probably not a good (and cheap) way to go from RGB to component.

mezrabad

08-07-2006, 04:36 PM

All NES from France have RGB only :)

Wow, and their power requirements are compatible with the US? Damn, that's cool. To hell with the Playerchoice 10 vs. method. I'll import!

fergojisan

08-07-2006, 04:46 PM

Pardon my stupid ignorance here, but...

Does RGB = Composite video? :embarrassed:

NintenDk

08-07-2006, 05:16 PM

Pardon my stupid ignorance here, but...

Does RGB = Composite video? :embarrassed:

composite video is a yellow plug that you see next to a red and white plug/ think RCA or vcr plugs when you think of these.

no RGB is mostly on mostly analog computer monitors and Euro TV sets

jajaja

08-07-2006, 05:35 PM

All NES from France have RGB only :)

Wow, and their power requirements are compatible with the US? Damn, that's cool. To hell with the Playerchoice 10 vs. method. I'll import!

Well.. im not 100% sure if it works to use a US AC adapter on a european NES. Both AC adapters spits out 9v so it should work. I've used my european 220v AC adapter on a US NES toploader without any problems. But try it on your own risk :)

Also keep in mind that this is a PAL console so your TV must be able to take those signals. You also have to make it universal and the US games you run on it might have gfx glitches, sound can be alittle slower and the same with the game itself. I wonder if its possible to rip the RGB stuff out of the machine and insert it to a US NES. The signals will still be PAL i guess..

Here is a pic of the RGB NES (its the only output, no A/V on the side).

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/3012/rgbsi7.jpg

Mayhem

08-07-2006, 05:45 PM

I've used my Megadrive (Genesis) power on a US NES fine as well... as long as the voltage is the same, it's okay.

As long as the transformer is outside the machine, then you're pretty much good to mix and match (eg. SNES, N64, Gamecube, Xbox360). If the transformer is internal (old PS1 and PS2), then DO NOT swop them over ;)

(otherwise things go bang. Quickly!)

CosmicMonkey

08-07-2006, 06:36 PM

All NES from France have RGB only :)

Wow, and their power requirements are compatible with the US? Damn, that's cool. To hell with the Playerchoice 10 vs. method. I'll import!

But it's not true RGB. Yes, the French NES may output an RGB signal, but it's coming from Composite originally. The PPU inside a NES only outputs in Composite, and it's the same PPU that's in any NES. That Composite signal is then transformed internally into RGB in the French NES. The only place inside a NES that true RGB exists is deep inside the PPU chip.

The only way to get true NES RGB is with the PC10 mod, because that PPU does output an RGB signal. But that is also a flawed, difficualt and expensive mod.

Anyhow, what I was going to say:

For you guys in the US who do manage to get a TV/Monitor with RGB get a JOytech AV control Centre 2 (http://www.joytech.net/products.php?section=viewprod&productID=76&lang=1). Then you can just buy standard RGB Scart cables for all your consoles. You'll then just need to get a cable from Scart to whatever RGB connection you have. It'll save the mission of trying to get loads of custom leads made for all your consoles. And there is a cheaper version of the Joytech box that has no LCD and only 4 channels.

rbudrick

08-08-2006, 06:12 PM

The only way to get true NES RGB is with the PC10 mod, because that PPU does output an RGB signal. But that is also a flawed, difficualt and expensive mod.

Flawed? How'sat? What's it do wrong? I remember there were some issues, but if modded correctly it's fine. But, I welcome any correction.

-ROb

jajaja

08-08-2006, 06:34 PM

I cant agree or disagree because i never really compared the RGB with normal antenna cable. I guess you need a good RGB TV to compare it also. The NES i use to play with uses antenna cable, its good enough for me :)

CosmicMonkey

08-08-2006, 09:35 PM

The colour pallete of the Playchoice 10 PPU is slightly off, so some colour aren't correct. I think it's mostly something to do with shades of certain greys. Fine for most games, but a damn lot of work and very expensive.

The NES is the only console I'd be happy running on Composite anyway. There's nowhere to get RGB inside the machine, so that's the way it is.

GaijinPunch

08-08-2006, 11:13 PM

acem77

08-09-2006, 01:03 AM

well worth true rgb !!! 8-)
ill never looked back but i have a 2nd unmodded nes just incase a game does not work. all mine work.

the nes may not have rgb in side from the get go, but the fact the playchoice 10 is rgb is a sign that it is the best way to play it. pixel crawl and bleeding colors is never the way any image was ment to be seen. cost and other factors force those artifacts on the end user.

http://www.greatlakesvista.com/rgb/nes/nes_rgb.jpg

Anthony1

08-09-2006, 01:32 AM

I always love to see gamers discover a little bit about RGB, and get excited and want to see what RGB gaming has to offer. Hopefully, some of my various posts on the subject cause a few gamers to get interested in it. I'm quite evangelical about my love of rgb, and it would be a damn shame if I didn't spur a few DP members to seek out the realm of the holy rgb signal.

Now, on to the business at hand. First thing to understand about RGB for gaming, is that just because you have a TV or monitor that says something about rgb on the back, does not mean that it's going to work with the kind of rgb we are talking about. For video game systems, we are interested in a monitor that can sync with a 15kHz analog rgb signal. Horizontal sync. Like somebody else has already mentioned "most" vga monitors can't sync with 15kHz, however, there is a very small number that can, but the ones that can are extremely rare. There are only a handful that I'm aware of. Some Sony GVM models, some Mitsubishi MegaViews and some of the older NEC MultiSync's. When I say older, I'm talking early 90's. The most recent made monitor I know of that can sync with 15kHz analog rgb is this one Sony PVM that was made in 1997. Wells-Gardner still makes some analog rgb monitors for use with Arcade Cabinets, but that's about it. Normally you are going to have to find a monitor from the very late 80's or very early 90's or maybe mid 90's.

I'll say it once, and I'll say it again, a great starter monitor for RGB is the Commodore 1084S-D1. It is possible to find these monitors locally. Check thrift stores or old computer outlets, or local places that sell old Amiga Equipment and stuff like that. Check stores that sell old computer equipment. Check Craigslist, check Ebay. Normally buying a monitor with the shipping involved isn't the best idea, but with a Commodore 1084, or some of the smaller PVM's, shipping isn't too bad. The most I would pay for a decent, working 1084S-D1, would be about $50. That is delivered with shipping and everything. If you live in a relatively populated area, you should be able to find one on craigslist for like $30 or less. That's the best way to go. Sometimes I see them on Ebay, and with shipping they usually go in the $40 to $60 range.

As for cables, it's best to find a guy on gamesx that will build a cable for a fee. Money talks, bullshit walks. I would advise starting off with just one rgb cable, for like the Genesis or Super Nintendo, and just see one system in rgb on your Commodore 1084S-D1, and then you will understand what RGB gaming is all about. From that point on, you will descend into darkness, and become totally addicted to rgb, and you will be on a unrelenting mission to play all your systems in rgb, if possible. That is typically the way it works. One hit and you are hooked.

But first things first. Get your hands on a Commodore 1084S-D1, or a 13 or 14 inch Sony PVM that has analog RGB inputs. Do Craigslist searches in your area for Sony PVM or Commodore. Find something for under $50, and find a dude that can make you a SNES or Genny cable. Then pop in either Super Ghouls and Ghosts for the SNES or Streets of Rage 2 for the Genesis, and then slowly descend in RGB MADNESS!!!!!

fergojisan

08-09-2006, 09:05 AM

Pardon my stupid ignorance here, but...

Does RGB = Composite video? :embarrassed:

Keeping up with my stupid ignorance here, I meant to type component video, not composite. :frustrated:

I have a Toshiba TV and DVD player, and a Lite-On DVD-REC, all with component video (or Color Stream, as Toshiba calls it, which really confused me at the beginning). I checked the TV manual because I thought that the component video jacks were red green and blue, but they are not. Judging from the Euro NES pic up there, the RGB has nothing to do with RCA jacks and plugs. Am I right in thinking that? And is component better than composite? Thanks. :D

GaijinPunch

08-09-2006, 05:26 PM

and find a dude that can make you a SNES or Genny cable.

Or the other option: Just get someone to make a D-SUB 25-pin to SCART (or JPN 21-pin RGB) converter, and buy the official cables. I know one exists for the SFC. Not sure about MegaDrive/Genesis.

And for the record, I saw an RGB-modded Famicom on Yahoo Japan go for about 45,000 yen a few weeks ago.

CartCollector

08-09-2006, 08:29 PM

To fergojisan:

Component is definitely better than composite. It's actually pretty close to RGB (But not RGB, however). The biggest performance difference between component and RGB is that while component video minimizes the interference often found with composite and S-Video, the colors are compressed. So RGB would produce a picture that is slightly more accurate as far as color goes, but component would be pretty close. Oh yeah, and consoles made before the PS2 don't output component. So you'd have to get an RGB to component converter.

To RGB non-believers - RGB/composite comparisons:
#1 - near the bottom, also a good primer for video novices (http://atarilabs.com/meat/2000/1201_videoprimer.shtml)
#2 - The NES RGB mod thread (the most convincing, IMO) (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=75116&highlight=rgb+svideo+composite)
#3 - RGB on SNES (http://members.home.nl/svinken/RGB.htm)
#4 - RGB on N64 (RGB on left, composite on right) (http://www.students.tut.fi/~tiainen2/rgb.html)

GaijinPunch

08-09-2006, 11:13 PM

I play MAME through an Arcade VGA card on a PVM. It is unbelievable. I play games that I own PCBs to and cannot discern the difference, assuming the emulation is of course done well.

Soviet Conscript

08-11-2006, 02:39 AM

ok this is probibly a pretty dumb question but what exactlly does a XRGB2+ do? i've seen it mentioned alot

does it turn crappy a/v connections into RGB? like if i plugged a snes into it through a composite cable and then plugged the XRGB2+ into a monitor capable of outputing RGB it would display the snes in RGB?

CartCollector

08-12-2006, 06:28 PM

The XRGB2+ allows you to convert RGB signals from your consoles to work on most computer monitors and some HDTVs. You will still have to either buy/modify/make cables for your consoles to get the most benefit from it. You can use it to convert composite and S-Video so they will work on a monitor, but it won't improve the quality of the video.

mezrabad

08-12-2006, 06:32 PM

I did the Sony monitor thing too (PVM 25") and it is beautiful, only I haven't gotten a single system to work in RGB yet.

I've gotten the PS2, DC, Saturn, and my Supergun to work in RGB. The cables are custom made though. As there's nothing close to an RGB standard in the US, they just made their own. Here (http://assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4774) is a thread at Assembler which should give you some good information.

shame on me for not checking this thread earlier. GaijinPunch, your link was exactly what I needed when I was spending Thursday night soldering a cable to go from my SCART connector to my Sony 25 D-sub. Based on the information in the thread, I almost got it right. (Right enough for my Saturn to work in RGB, but, so far, nothing else.)

Did you have to get a chip for your PS2 to work (something to sep'rate the sync from the composit signal?)

Did you have to do anything to get your DC to work?

I've got cables for DC, PS1/2, Saturn and SNES. My SNES is blinking or something, so that's out, but the PS1 almost works (I'm going to have to modify my cable to match the specs in the thread you linked to.). S'frustrating.

Anyway, thanks for the link! Time to go heat up my soldering iron again.

TheRedEye

08-12-2006, 08:45 PM

I play MAME through an Arcade VGA card on a PVM. It is unbelievable. I play games that I own PCBs to and cannot discern the difference, assuming the emulation is of course done well.

I've wanted to do this for quite a while now. What would I need, besides an arcade vga card? Did you have to get a custom cable?

Soviet Conscript

08-12-2006, 09:47 PM

Component is definitely better than composite. It's actually pretty close to RGB (But not RGB, however).

i was wondering this myself and for a good while i was assume they were the same thing. is the diffrence in quality even noticable? if you have a new TV with component connections would it really be worth the time and effort to find a monitor and rig your system for RGB

if i saw two of the same games playing on the same kind of sets sitting right next to eatch other playing one in component and one in RGB would I or most people really even notice a diffrence? or are they so similar its one of those things that you have to have blown up images and be really looking for it to notice?

that being asked i did see a definant quality leap from say composite to S-video, and a slight leap from S-video to componont. although i never noticed a diffrence between RF and composite when i switched many years back untill very recently when a friend played his NES though a RF connection....yuk.

mezrabad

08-13-2006, 12:39 AM

Component is definitely better than composite. It's actually pretty close to RGB (But not RGB, however).

i was wondering this myself and for a good while i was assume they were the same thing. is the diffrence in quality even noticable? if you have a new TV with component connections would it really be worth the time and effort to find a monitor and rig your system for RGB

if i saw two of the same games playing on the same kind of sets sitting right next to eatch other playing one in component and one in RGB would I or most people really even notice a diffrence? or are they so similar its one of those things that you have to have blown up images and be really looking for it to notice?

Yes, it is noticeable. I just got my Saturn working and I can see an improvement over what I had been calling "stunning s-video quality". I didn't have to get close up to the screen to see it.

I had just gotten an HDTV when I learned about RGB (or warm chocolate puddin' as it was being called at the time) and was sad to hear the $2400 I'd just spent on my nice new TV was wasted on anything less than 480p because the line doublers that most tvs come with kind of suck. So $190 later I had a Sony PVM-2530 (and a slightly annoyed wife). Since I'd spent so much on the first TV it seemed stupid not to spend the small percentage more to get one capable of RGB. I just wish we had standard connectors over here. What a pain.

Soviet Conscript

08-13-2006, 06:56 PM

Yes, it is noticeable. I just got my Saturn working and I can see an improvement over what I had been calling "stunning s-video quality". I didn't have to get close up to the screen to see it.

i don't know if i misread your reply or if you misread my question but i was wondering about the quality diffrence between component and RGB. by all accounts i've been told that component is very close to RGB so that would suggest the increase in quality would be negligable to very slight. not enough to warrent a seperate set. as for S-video to component i found a noticable increase in quality but nothing eye poping or at least not to the degree i saw in quality increase with composite to S-video.