Is Using CD-R's Harmful To Classic Systems?

[norkusa]

Got a few classic CD-bassed systems that don't play much (CD-i, 3DO) mostly because I don't have many games for them. I was going download some games but was wondering if using cd-r's on these systems can damage them.

I don't know much on the subject but I remember reading something on DP from a big LaserActive collector saying it's bad to use them on that system. Wondering if the same applied to other cd-based systems.

I figure using crappy media wouldn't be good for the system, but would using top quality stuff like Verbatim and Taiyo Yuden make a difference? Or is using any kind of cd-r bad?

[Towlie2110]

Cd-r's will not damage the system. More likely the system will damage the cd-r, but it's a cheap cd-r who cares.

You can burn freely and play freely with no worries

[ProgrammingAce]

Depends on the system and how the drive firmware is designed.

The laser in a cd/dvd drive is only rated for a certan number of hours. It'll eventually burn out. Depending on the quality of the media, if the disc is hard to read, the drive firmware may up the voltage on the laser lense. That'll decrease the life of the laser in general.

So it really depends on how the system was designed. Personally, i wouldn't worry about it too much.

[norkusa]

Cd-r's will not damage the system. More likely the system will damage the cd-r, but it's a cheap cd-r who cares.

You can burn freely and play freely with no worries

Is that really true? I just got my PS2 modded and noticed that after a while, the system would have problems reading certain brands of dvd-r media. When I switched to the good stuff though, those problems went away.

The general belief in the PS2 mod community is that your PS2's laser will crap out after a while if you use cheap media to burn your games on (which is true from what I've read). I just wasn't sure if it applied to older systems like SegaCD and 3DO though.

[c0ldb33r]

The general belief in the PS2 mod community is that your PS2's laser will crap out after a while if you use cheap media to burn your games on (which is true from what I've read). I just wasn't sure if it applied to older systems like SegaCD and 3DO though.
With the PS2 - just stick a hard drive in it - with HDDLoader, you've got no worries about your laser :D

[CosmicMonkey]

Yeah, this has sort of bothered me. I have Space Fantasy Zone on a CD-R. I've only had a couple of quick goes because I was worried about caining the CD drive on the Duo-R.

[ProgrammingAce]

Depends on how the system was designed... like xbox, for example, doesn't have this problem (the xbox laser sucks for completely different reasons). The xbox will slow down the speed of the spinning motor if it has a hard time reading data.

As for the ps2, it definately turns up the voltage if it has a hard time reading a disc. The ps2 has no safty limit on the laser lense voltage, which basicly means if you put in a dirty disc (or a cheap burned disc) it can destroy the laser with high voltage off the single bad disc.

off hand, i'm not sure how those systems in particular handle poor data reads...

[scooby105]

burn the cd-rs at the lowest speed possible. 1x is the way to go, but if your drive can't burn that slow, burn at 4x.

[shadowkn55]

Depends on how the system was designed... like xbox, for example, doesn't have this problem (the xbox laser sucks for completely different reasons). The xbox will slow down the speed of the spinning motor if it has a hard time reading data.

As for the ps2, it definitely turns up the voltage if it has a hard time reading a disc. The ps2 has no safty limit on the laser lense voltage, which basicly means if you put in a dirty disc (or a cheap burned disc) it can destroy the laser with high voltage off the single bad disc.

off hand, i'm not sure how those systems in particular handle poor data reads...

Wnile the part about the ps2 the upping the voltage is true, the ps2 does have built in laser lens voltage protection. It is provided by the BA chip in versions up to 7. Version 1-4 have laser problems not related to voltage. Versions 9 and 10 had the BA chip removed for cost cutting reasons which is why the Romeo mod was introduced for V9/10 models that are modchipped. It prevents the laser coil voltage from going too high when reading poor quality media. The v12 slim ps2 was infamously known for bad laser problems. The comsoft v4 was created to fix this laser problem and shuts down the ps2 when the volts get too high. In v13 and above ps2s, Sony added laser protection circuitry to fix this problem. If you are looking to get a ps2, get a v5/7 (fat model) or a v13+ (slim). The v12 is fine if you get the laser fix.

v5 = SCPH 3000x-R
v7 = SCPH 3900x
v12 = SCPH 7000x (with modem)
v13 = SCPH 7000x (without modem)
v14+ = SCPH 75001

To sum it up, use high quality media if you care about your laser. It's easier to read and less prone to problems down the road. I stick with 8x for dvd-r and 16x for cd-r burning. Not a problem for me. I exclusively use Fujifilm media. The media code for cd-r is Taiyo Yuden and dvd-r is Prodisc for the people that like to buy unbranded media.

[ProgrammingAce]

@shadowkn55: Yes, everything you said is true, just far more detail then i was about to go into.

[Richter Belmount]

yeah watch if you have bad burns on pc engine.

[fishsandwich]

burn the cd-rs at the lowest speed possible. 1x is the way to go, but if your drive can't burn that slow, burn at 4x.

This is so, so true. BURN CDR's AT THE SLOWEST POSSIBLE SPEED.

I burned a bunch of games for my CD32 (early CD system) and just burned them at the normal (highest possible) speed.

The games took FOREVER to load if they would load at all. The CD drive just worked and clicked and spun away. Got me worried.

Then I burned a bunch of games at the SLOWEST possible speed and most of them loaded up MUCH quicker. Some of the games that hadn't been able to run started working.

It does make a differance... don't make those older CD drives work harder than they have to!

[vulcanjedi]

Hey

I keep an old CD burner in one of my machines just to burn games for my SegaCD. I have found that even if I slow my main burner down to 2x it still doesn't do as good of a job as my 6 year old creative does. So I would also recommend using as old of a CD burner as you can get.

vj

[c0ldb33r]

My DVD burner will only burn at 4x - is there any way to slow it down further?

I think I've got an old cd burner with a maximum 8x burn speed, I betcha that'll be able to slow down further :D I'll have to dig it out and install it in my PC.

[googlefest1]

i think it may depend on the media

my dvd burner options change with the media

most 8X media it will offer me 4X - 8X - if i change to slower i can get the 2x-4x options and then even slower media (like the samsung beall 1X ) 1X-2X

[rbudrick]

I've heard the Duo and other PCE/TG16 drives are famous for burning out when using CD-Rs.

-Rob

[itobandito]

What do you guys recommend for CDRs and DVDR's I have been usinig Verbatiums for both. I heard those are good, any insight on that?

[norkusa]

What do you guys recommend for CDRs and DVDR's I have been usinig Verbatiums for both. I heard those are good, any insight on that?

Taiyo Yuden is supposed to be the best from what I've read. Don't think any major retail stores carry them though, so you'd have to order them online. Verbatim is the next best and I think that they may actually use Taiyo Yuden's as their own but I'm not sure about that.

I used to think Sony dvd-r's were top of the line because they were so expensive and I used a bunch on my modded PS2 without any problems. Then I bought a 100 pack of them and now every game I've burned with them runs poorly and skips a lot during the cinematic scenes. :roll: So now I just stick to Verbatim and haven't had any problems with those yet.

[chaoticjelly]

Most classic systems which use CD's have common lasers.. so I wouldnt worry too much.. worse comes to worse, just order a new pickup..

[Ed Oscuro]

worse comes to worse, just order a new pickup..
Is that even feasible for something like a handheld CD-i system? I'm curious to know.

[norkusa]

worse comes to worse, just order a new pickup..
Is that even feasible for something like a handheld CD-i system? I'm curious to know.

Yeah, I'd like to know too. I've got a LaserActive with a Genesis module that doesn't read CD's anymore. If it costs a lot to fix (if they even can fix it), there's no way in hell I'm playing any CD-R's in that thing.

[Raedon]

This is why I only collect one CD based system, the Neo-Geo CDZ. From what I've seen cheap media or real games the lasers are all junk and were never ment to last longer then 5 years. only problem I've seen with junk CD-Rs is games that skip.

[Ed Oscuro]

First off it's important to remember that no CD-ROM drive will work forever (even the laser has a maximum life span). I think that CD-Rs *can* 'damage' the drive. Not directly, but if the media is of a type the optical drive isn't meant to handle it might be doing more attempted reads than would normally be necessary. Of course, this would be true of scratched discs as well (I don't know if that'd be a greater or lesser problem).

More attempted reads = more wear and tear on the mechanical parts of the laser assempby and thus a reduced lifespan.

http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/kss361a.gif

I think the main thing you'll find to cause trouble is the motor, or perhaps the plastic gears it drives. Second would be the laser itself; they probably all go bad after a long (long!) period of time and we know that sometimes they blow out (but that would be an instant failure).

[Flack]

I have been playing burned CD-R's on my PSX (5501) for 8 years now. I only use shitty media (whatever's cheapest) and it still works fine. YMMV. I have noticed my launch PS2 is starting to have trouble reading certain discs. I modded it about 10 minutes after mod chips were available.

[Ponyone]

Is the burning at different speeds really that crucial?

I've had my dreamcast for at least 5 years now, and all my DC games were burned at top speeds (48max) and they run smooth and my laser is fine.

Even on older systems. Sometimes if I burned slower, they wouldn't even work.

I guess it doesn't hurt though if you have the time.

[nate1749]

No burning speed is not crucial neccesarily, but it can be - you really need to understand why first. The reason they are suggesting slower burn rates is generally if you burn it slower the laser will have a higher chance of chemically changing that area of the disc more, which would then create a higher reflection rate. If you're burning really fast, it may not change the chemicals as much which can create a lower reflection rate.

What's really important (which seemed to be missed or perhaps I missed it) is what's called reflection rate. Every disc has a reflection rate, pressed CDs have extremely high rates (95%), burn cds have a lower rate let's say 75-85% and cd-rw's have an even lower rate (~35%). This means in order to read the disc, the laser has to be more powerful. Some lasers never change power, some automatically change power (which can lead to a lower life), and some you can actually open up the system and make it more powerful with a twist of a piece of plastic (for instance, you can make your dreamcast read cd-rw's, but this will most certainly lead to an early death).

What determines the reflection rate is the strength of the laser used to burn the disc (this is extremely important) and the type of media used. People mention media, but no one seemd to mention the burner. If the burner you're using (e.g. the cheapest one you could find) can't create a high reflection with any type of media, then it doesn't really matter.

For example, I had a Lite On DVD burner that using any type of media and burning at any speed, created dvds that would skip or lock up in my player. Now in another dvd player I had (where the laser must have been stronger) it would read a lot more of the disc, but still would have some problems. I ultimatley ended up changing the type of burner (bought a pioneer) and all problems were solved.

Now ponyone mentioned that no matter what speed he used to burn, on old systems they wouldn't work. That's because the reflection rate needed in those old systems is very high. For example, if you ever find an old cd player from the early 90s and try to play a burned audio disc in it, chances are it won't work. That's because when it was built it was expecting discs with very high reflection rates, since burned cds offer a lower reflection rate they sometimes don't work at all regardless of burner, speed burned, or media used.

What you essentially want is a burner that has a very powerful laser so it can change the chemicals on the media to a very high reflection, and media that uses the same chemicals throughout the entire disc that will maintain a long life and will allow the burner to create that desired highest reflection rate.

So what burner has the strongest laser to burn, from my experience Pioneer (from my experience burning speed is irrelevant with pioneer), and for media, whatever works for you. I just learned that Memorex DVD-R's have worked fine for me for years, but they're +R-DL discs are awful, so verbatim is way to go for dual layer. It's hard to stick with one brand neccesarily, because in the 8 years I've been burning discs manufacturers seem to change their suppliers often. You may buy a batch of memorex at best buy and it will be made up of one chemcial, go to cirtcuit city and get another batch of memorexes and it will be made up of another chemcial.

What sucks is you have no way of always knowing that you're getting the same product (regardless of labeling) sense it's not labeled. So the batch from BB may give you a reflection rate of 85% where the batch from CC may only give you 75%.

Finally, back to dreamcast and burned games in general. The laser in dreamcast from my experience is great, but what you have to watch for is burned games. A lot of burned games were ripped and then turned directly into ISOs for burning. Problem is, when the ISO was made it put the files in alphabetical order, which is how they will be burned to the disc. This is terrible because the laser will have to jump around the disc all the time to find the files it needs to load parts of the game (when it was pressed the files were strategically placed on the disc to minimize loading times, name of files was irrelevant) and will lead to an early death. Later some groups releasing games realized this and ripped them and created isos in the same way that they were pressed, essentially eliminating this problem.

Hope that all makes sense =)

Nate

[Ed Oscuro]

Yeah, that's very helpful (I hadn't even heard about reflectivity rates). Thanks nate! :D

[Captain Wrong]

I've always been highly skeptical about the CD-R damaging your system claims. I think people forget these things weren't meant to last forever and optical media readers have a multitude of moving parts which can conk out over time versus a ROM cartridge based system.

I mean, how many CD players from the same time period are still working 100% perfectly? There isn't anything really special about the actual drives used in a Sega CD, for instance, versus a typical CD player of the same vintage. I think it's just one of those things where CD based consoles are going to need reconditioning over time that cart based systems don't require.

[Ed Oscuro]

No, CD-Rs don't send out magical death rays to the laser, Cap'n. But as Nate and I said, media the console isn't designed to read may cause the laser to need far more reads (or to switch laser power) than usual. More reads can wear out the motor assembly/pickup. More power through the laser will cause it to burn out more quickly.

You're right, all CD-ROM based systems are destined to need replacement parts, but I'd rather have to do it as few times as possible.

[Pete Rittwage]

For media, I've used RITEK for quite a few years now with no problems. The PS2 is notorius for having trouble reading DVD-R media, but the RITEK's always work.

They have a pink burning surface, though. :)

[googlefest1]

the above post is great and explains alot - i just want to add -- that there is what i would call a sweet spot with burners and media

there is an optimal burning speed for each media and burner

example - a lite-on burner with firmware xxx.xx using xxxx burning software may produce the best results with verbatim 52x manufactured at MCC at a 16x burning speed. So, burning at the slowest posible speed is not always the best bet.

there are disk burning forums that post thier results that would be a great help regaring this - if you dont care to perform your own tests OR if you dont have a burner compatible with certain software that would perform the "quality" tests

CDRINFO.com is a good site to learn about these things - i havent been there in a year but i would expect them to still be the same -- they also had the latest and legacy firmware updates for many drives.

someone mentioned that you cant buy tayo yuden media in the US -- you can. You have to screen brands. All the major brands repackage disks from various manufactures. Fuji brand was manufactued by tayo yuden (best bet would be a package labeled made in japan). There is also free software out there that would help you identify who made the disk. If you have alcholol 120% the feature exists in the software. -- ALSO some of the real cheap media is decent - if you check the manufacturer and the designation is CMC then you know that is the Taiwan subsidiary of tayo yuden that is suposed to make media to tayo yuden standards and dye ( but it isint as good as the disks produced in the main factory - the procces is diferent)


also -- if i hear a drive having a hard time with a a cd-r or dvd-r then i make a new disk burned at a diferent speed. If i still dont like the noise or shake i use the original