Gaming is failing women?

[Graham Mitchell]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/5271852.stm

This article is linked on the front page of our beloved ww.digitpress.com, and I found it...interesting.

A lot of this article is worth discussing, but I found the most interesting aspect of it to be Gardner's comment that girls wanted games about relationships. "They want to chat", he says.

Now, just so you know, I'm a 28-year-old male, so any comments I make here are simply my observations. However, I've had a few girlfriends over the years, and the games that they have gotten into have been games like Tetris, Columns, Mario, Katamari Damacy, Bubble Bobble, Mr. Driller, Sonic, Zelda, Animal Crossing, Bust-A-Move, etc. Bear in mind, most of these girls didn't play games before meeting me. None of these games were about relationships or chatting. I think the common theme is that they weren't about committing crimes, shooting people, stabbing people, ninjas, metroids, or political/war strategy.

So I'm curious: what do some of the female gamers around here think about this? Are Gardner's ideas bogus crap or do you think he's on to something? Guys, feel free to respond as well.

Thanks in advance!

[Sothy]

broads.....

[evil_genius]

They need more cooking and cleaning simulators.

[NintenDk]

Well I don't know. He might be onto something... some trolling perhaps, though who knows really its not an article written by a woman so I guees that says it and he's from EA, EA people...

Maybe an article like this: "EA is failing gamers" yeah since that hockey game for the genesis I liked :)

[Graham Mitchell]

They need more cooking and cleaning simulators.

Cooking Mama actually looks pretty cool. :D

[Lady Jaye]

Diner Dash seems to get good response too...

Seriously, though, the games that interest most girls are games that are gender-neutral, not too violent (and probably better if it's cartoony violence rather than realistic violence), easy to learn and playable in short periods of time (even though they can lead to long gaming sessions). It probably doesn't hurt if the game is colorful too.

[Daria]

If the average female is interesting in chatting it begs the questions just how popular are MMORPGs with that demographic?

[s1lence]

If the average female is interesting in chatting it begs the questions just how popular are MMORPGs with that demographic?

That is a good question, and what about RPG's as well? You are a female and you love RPG's and those aren't what I would call "chatty" games.

[roxybaby]

I've always liked action games and racing sims the best myself. I don't need to be chatting when I play a game. I think it's fun to play some types of games with friends (or the boyfriend) but some games are just fine alone. I'm not an everyday gamer. I play games for one of two reasons: escape from life's stresses, or to get a sense of accomplishment at something. I think that's pretty gender neutral.

[FantasiaWHT]

My wife was addicted to an MMORPG about 5-6 years ago (I was too) It was actually designed to look like a 16-bit RPG, with combat totally action oriented, and it was a blast. She loved it most not for the combat, but for the relationships with people she made on it, and the extreme social focus of the game (There was a highly advanced political and military system, as well as literally scores of events every day, some GM ran but most PC ran, from poetry readings, plays, and dances to fox hunts, paint-arrow wars, and grand melees, to sporting events, charity celebrity auctions and treasure hunts)

It's still around, it's called Nexus: Kingdom of the Winds, run by Nexon, a Korean company.

[exit]

They need more cooking and cleaning simulators.

Cleaning simulators ey? Now is my chance to publish the "Cleaning of a House" simulator I've been working on and with a tagline "It never ends", just watch as the money comes a pouring.

I guess a "Boyfriend" simulator should be made. It could come with a headset and teenage girls could just talk to him to their hearts content, as he says such phrases as "That's very interesting. Please tell me more!" and "(insert random topic here), WOW I've never thought about it like that!" It would sell millions.

[appaws]

My wife fits the female/casual profile pretty much. Her attention span is pretty long for things that seem repetitive to me (like Sims 2 and Nintendogs) but she is easily frustrated. She was playing NSMB and Yoshi's Island on the DS, but as soon as a level took more than two or three tries to get through, she just gave up and hasn't touched either game since

A couple years ago she got way into City of Heroes, and spent more time playing than I did...most of it chatting with people while standing around that central square area.

She definetly wants me to pick up Cooking Mama and Harvest Moon for the DS, which usually means I get to pick out an equal number of games for myself without getting yelled at! :evil:

[Kuros]

They need more cooking and cleaning simulators.

Cleaning simulators ey? Now is my chance to publish the "Cleaning of a House" simulator I've been working on and with a tagline "It never ends", just watch as the money comes a pouring.

I guess a "Boyfriend" simulator should be made. It could come with a headset and teenage girls could just talk to him to their hearts content, as he says such phrases as "That's very interesting. Please tell me more!" and "(insert random topic here), WOW I've never thought about it like that!" It would sell millions.

Then you could make the sequel to "Boyfriend" called "Husband" where the woman would talk to him and he would say such phrases as "Uh-huh" "Right" "I'll get to it tommorrow" and the ever popular "Come on! I'm trying to watch the game!"

[poloplayr]

They need more cooking and cleaning simulators.

LOL

[j_factor]

I think the article is referring to the popularity of stuff like The Sims with women. However, I would think that men are more into chattiness, since MMORPGs and other online games (not to mention IRC) seem to be male-dominated.

I think women tend to go for more 'arcadey' games, minus the ones with tons of gore and etc. I've played many a female in Street Fighter, but only once or twice have I ever come across the opportunity to play against a chick in a more gory fighting game like Mortal Kombat or something. I think girls tend to really enjoy puzzle games, music games (especially DDR), maze games back when they were current, etc.

But those are just generalizations, of course. I once knew a girl who loved Smash TV. :P

I think women comprise a smaller set of gamers because the industry tends to shine a bright light on "men's games" (for lack of a better term). Gaming really seems like a boys' club when everything's football, FPS, Grand Theft Auto, etc.

[FantasiaWHT]

I think the article is referring to the popularity of stuff like The Sims with women. However, I would think that men are more into chattiness, since MMORPGs and other online games (not to mention IRC) seem to be male-dominated.


All games are male-dominated, so it's really more of a question of if female presence in a certain genre is higher than "the norm" across gaming as a whole

[mailman187666]

My own mother is the one who got me into videogames back in like 1984. She had a Magnavox odysee with the built in sports games. Then she would bring me to arcades around the same time where I would need a stool to be able to see the screen. 22 years later, my mother plays RPGs (mainly turn based) and puzzle games. She also has the occasional sims style games and adventure type games. I'm glad I can talk to my mother about games and it makes it easy for me to buy x-mas and b-day gifts :D

[Daria]

If the average female is interesting in chatting it begs the questions just how popular are MMORPGs with that demographic?

You are a female and you love RPG's and those aren't what I would call "chatty" games.

I'm far from being a good example of the so called "average" female. Besides I play a lot more than RPGs. They're just my favorites. (:

[katchoo]

I'm just drawn to games with an interesting concept and are enjoyable to play. It can be anything from tetris to burnout. Although I have to admit that I'm not big on horror games or GTA types. Although the horror games are out just because I don't do horror movies either.

I would like to see games that focus more on the the story and how one's actions effect the whole plot as a whole. The Indigo Prophecy is an excellent example of "games I'd like to see more of".

[Graham Mitchell]

This has been interesting. The whole reason I started this thread was because I thought Gardner's comments were pretty much just unfair generalizations. So far, it sounds like I was somewhat correct. You all seem to have your own specific interests independent of the stereotypes, just like most of the guys do too. But then again, we need to bear in mind that this is the digital press forums, and the girls frequenting this site are more likely than the average girl to have more defined tastes in gaming. Maybe if we asked this question of random girls at the mall, they'd all say "I love the Sims cuz they date" or something.

Thanks for the responses, ya'll. Keep 'em coming!

[Graham Mitchell]

It probably doesn't hurt if the game is colorful too.

That was the theory behind Centipede, right? The artist who designed it was a woman (can't remember her name), and she wanted to use bright and striking colors to attract more women to play the game.

[GameSlaveGaz]

While there are numerous females that fit the description of the casual gamer that only plays puzzle games, the Sims and the occaisonal platformer, there are still many females who play all kinds of games, even the violent ones. I am one of those. I love platformers, I love puzzle games, I love Animal Crossing and Nintendogs. But I also love bloody, violent action games, RPGs and the occaisonal first person shooter. The only games I never play are sports games, because I'm still a woman and I have to draw the line somewhere LOL.
I mean, the statistics are there for a reason. The article IS true, however there are always exceptions. I'm not the only hardcore chick gamer, but guys always look at me like a novelty. Like when guys my age come into my store and they see my NES belt buckle and I start discussing games with them they're immediate reaction is, "Wow, a hot chick whose into video games!" and I've been hit on a couple times cuz of it. My boyfriend thinks he is blessed and his friends think it's cool that I'll play Halo multiplayer with them. I shouldn't have to feel like a novelty. I'm not the only chick who's not ashamed to admit they own 17 systems and 450 games, watches excessive amounts of anime, Star Trek and Invader ZIM, and listens to heavy metal. At the risk of sounding conceited, I have thought to myself once "How can I be so hot and so geeky at the same time?" And I shouldn't have had to think that. It shouldn't be a surprise that some girls like first-person shooters and violent action games. Geeky shouldn't be automatically associated with unattractive (slightly off-topic to the original article but somewhat related). I mean, I'm not offended by the article's statement or the broad generalization (and the generalization about broads) and I'm never embarrassed when people are shocked to find out I'm a gamer. In fact, I'm usually amused. Someone posted a comment on my myspace about being the perfect girl because I was into video games, Star Trek and Styx. I laughed outloud for 10 minutes.
Sure games need to appeal more to the casual female gamer, and it's starting to come around what with evn more and more expansion packs for Sims 2 and the wonders of the DS such as Nintendogs, Animal Crossing, New Super Mario Bros, Brain Age, and the upcoming Cooking Mama. The hardcore chick gamers are already into the same games as the guys, so the industry doesn't need to try to appeal to them or get their attention. But they do need recognition and to stop being treated like a novelty.

[Aussie2B]

I always find it offensive to some degree when men in the industry think they know what women want from games. Their ideas are usually the most generalized, lowest common denominator, focus group tested conclusions anybody could come up with. It's like the female gamer equivalent of the marketers in the 90s who thought Bubsy would be the ultimate "animal with an attitude" mascot ever because he had a freakin' exclamation point on his shirt.... does that comparison make any sense? o_O


P.S. I love Bubsy 3D!

[Aussie2B]

Grah, that was my boyfriend picking on my hatred for Bubsy. :(

Anyway, if I can still recall the point I was trying to make, why can't they ask what works for women who are actually seriously into games? I don't just mean one or two games that they casually play, but women who have many games they enjoy and regard it as one of their hobbies.

You see, the whole contradiction of this is that they bring up what is working - The Sims and such - and base their conclusions on that for what should be done in the future, yet, at the same time, they point out that most women who play games lose interest within a year. How is it good business to get a woman into one or two games that they'll eventually lose interest in? That's the thing about The Sims, Nintendogs, Animal Crossing, and other similar games. They may not be demanding in skill and offer a lot of socializing possibilities, but that repetitiveness that a woman originally found comforting and enjoyable is eventually going to grow dull to most.

Ideally, the industry wants to acquire the same level of business with women as they have with men, right? For that, they need to create the same kind of gamers. You don't necessarily have to market the exact same kind of games, but you need the same overall strategy. You need to form diehard gamers who will continuously buy new games and not have their interest wane. Sticking with what semi-works now is not going to achieve this. Limiting things to puzzle games, music games, and socializing games are for casual women players, not those who will sink a lot of cash into the industry and stick around for life.

[Graham Mitchell]

Ideally, the industry wants to acquire the same level of business with women as they have with men, right? For that, they need to create the same kind of gamers. You don't necessarily have to market the exact same kind of games, but you need the same overall strategy. You need to form diehard gamers who will continuously buy new games and not have their interest wane. Sticking with what semi-works now is not going to achieve this. Limiting things to puzzle games, music games, and socializing games are for casual women players, not those who will sink a lot of cash into the industry and stick around for life.

Interesting point, but I think that where the industry really needs to hit is young girls in particular. Me and most of my late-20's friends all still play video games because we got hooked on them when we were 8 or 9 years old. Many of the successful games at that time were aimed at males in that age group (particularly anything involving blowing up spaceships or tanks.)

I know some girls who played Pac-Man and Frogger at that age, but they didn't maintain their interest in games much past elementary school. I don't know why. I wonder if it's because the subject matter of most popular games is alienating to young girls, or if there's another reason. I don't think it's fair to say that girls/women are just plain less likely to find video games enjoyable due to differences from males in personality and brain physiology. Most girls I know have enjoyed games at some point, but they just didn't stick with it for some reason.

[Aussie2B]

Well, it's a vicious circle because as long as there aren't many women who are really into games, young girls are going to be apprehensive about taking the hobby seriously. In elementary school, kids are just kids, so girls and boys alike feel comfortable playing games. However, junior high is a whole different world. Puberty hits and kids become obsessed with how others view them, especially the girls. Everybody wants to fit in and being a girl that's really into video games is definitely NOT the way to go about that. You're expected to be into clothes, make-up, gossip, hanging out out the mall, obsessing over boys, that kind of stereotypical stuff. If you're into any male-dominated hobby, you're pretty much screwed socially, and it only gets worse as you get older. I know I started to become distinctively aware that my peers began to think there was something not "right" about me being so into games in junior high, and while I was openly passionate about them for awhile, by high school I became very secretive about my hobby.

[Push Upstairs]

Geeky shouldn't be automatically associated with unattractive.

But Geeky/Nerdy is the new sexy! LOL



I read about these "trying to appeal to the female gamers" and i remember how companies would shoot themselves in the foot by releasing friggin Barbie games.

Games about clothes/shopping/hanging with friends/looking pretty...i'm suprised more female gamers weren't turned away from gaming because of those moronic games.

[Graham Mitchell]

I know I started to become distinctively aware that my peers began to think there was something not "right" about me being so into games in junior high, and while I was openly passionate about them for awhile, by high school I became very secretive about my hobby.

That's unfortunate, to say the least.


Well, it's a vicious circle because as long as there aren't many women who are really into games, young girls are going to be apprehensive about taking the hobby seriously.

You know, it's an interesting cultural phenomenon that socialization/play for junior-high age girls is often centered imitating or rehearsing for what adults (mainly women) do, while boys in the same age group do stuff for fun that's entirely worthless. That phenomenon continues pretty much throughout their lives. I mean, I loved video games and music growing up (hell, I still do) but they didn't prepare for any kind of responsibility I had later in life, either in school, home, or the workplace. Well, maybe they did emotionally, but not in any concretely practical way, anyhow.

And you've probably got a valid point--if more young adult women (particularly those of the glamorous variety) play video games, then more young girls probably will too. Everybody remembers wanting to see a movie because your older brother or sister saw it. The same principal would probably work here to some extent.

[Graham Mitchell]

I know I started to become distinctively aware that my peers began to think there was something not "right" about me being so into games in junior high, and while I was openly passionate about them for awhile, by high school I became very secretive about my hobby.

That's unfortunate, to say the least.


Well, it's a vicious circle because as long as there aren't many women who are really into games, young girls are going to be apprehensive about taking the hobby seriously.

You know, it's an interesting cultural phenomenon that socialization/play for junior-high age girls is often centered imitating or rehearsing for what adults (mainly women) do, while boys in the same age group do stuff for fun that's entirely worthless. That phenomenon continues pretty much throughout their lives. I mean, I loved video games and music growing up (hell, I still do) but they didn't prepare for any kind of responsibility I had later in life, either in school, home, or the workplace. Well, maybe they did emotionally, but not in any concretely practical way, anyhow.

And you've probably got a valid point--if more young adult women (particularly those of the glamorous variety) play video games, then more young girls probably will too. Everybody remembers wanting to see a movie because your older brother or sister saw it. The same principal would probably work here to some extent.

[Wavelflack]

Perhaps it's time to give up on trying to "trick" females into playing games.

For instance:

No matter how many "mushroom cloud" stencils you give me, no matter how much blood red/ black construction paper you give me, no matter how many dick-shaped paper punches you offer me...I'm not going to want to do scrapbooking.

I can already hear the outcry from the handful of "hardcore" videogame loving females on this board. It doesn't matter. They already like existing games. They are the exception to the rule, and are not part of the "target audience" being sought after.

Realize that the "target audience" is apathetic and has only transitory interest in "video games".

[Aussie2B]

There's always a way to make people lose the apathy, and apparently there's enough potential money to be made that the industry thinks it's worth the effort.

There's nothing inherently "male" about video games, so if the industry can change how American society views game players, women will take more interest. Women love movies, TV, and music, and video games are just as diverse as any of those forms of entertainment. In Japan, there is a much higher percentage of female gamers, and that's because female gamers are considered normal. It's the same with how everyone in Japan - both genders and all ages - like animation, but in the US, animation is largely regarded as children's entertainment.

There's nothing wrong with men being into scrapbooking either. :P There's nothing inherently feminine about crafts. Why is it fine for men to be into pottery, but if they're making a scrapbook, everybody assumes they must be homosexual? It's all about society's perspectives on things.

[Wavelflack]

I don't think there is a stigma attached to videogame playing, and there hasn't been in some time. As such, the idea that a social change is in order for women to be "allowed" to play the games is ridiculous.

Apathy is apathy. If you have to invent a trendy culture in order get females to subscribe to gaming, then they aren't really interested in the games to begin with. As evidenced currently...

As for scrapbooking, it has nothing to do with the assigned sexuality impled, but simply because I (and I would bet most males) take a functional view of photography and albums. I'm interested in the photographs for the data they contain, and see no need to adorn the perimeter with various trinkets and such. This not only is inefficient, by wasting enormous amounts of space with artistic flourishes (2-3 pictures per page, instead of 6), but many times the photos themselves are cut, cropped, sliced and diced in the name of "artistry". They are mutilated.

[Aussie2B]

To suggest that there's no stigma placed on women gamers is just plain foolish.

[Wavelflack]

That's a convincing argument.

Can you give me an example?

[retroman]

i still say a good game is a good game...it dont matter what sex u are..

[Graham Mitchell]

I know that women can be very petty towards one another (and towards men) with regards to "fitting in". A lot of women I've met are (irrationally) suspicious of people who don't "run with the herd". My latest ex is a perfect example of that. You wouldn't believe the things that came out of her mouth when she thought someone wasn't dressed "right", or the amount of criticism I recieved because I listened to obscure music. I think Aussie2B has a valid and very real point.

[Push Upstairs]

Graham,

It just sounds like you dated the wrong girl, not dated a example of all females in the world.

I've met women who enjoy obscure music and aren't overly critical of fashion, are these women just as "weird" or "rare" as those who like to play video games?

[Graham Mitchell]

Graham,

It just sounds like you dated the wrong girl, not dated a example of all females in the world.

I've met women who enjoy obscure music and aren't overly critical of fashion, are these women just as "weird" or "rare" as those who like to play video games?

Fair enough, but I still think there are women like that out there, and they do make up a significant portion of the female population.

But this thread is turning into a bad scene...here we are making generalizations about women. This could get ugly.

[Wavelflack]

Stereotypes are always based in reality.

[Daria]

But this thread is turning into a bad scene...here we are making generalizations about women. This could get ugly.

Nah. Most women ARE unreasonable bitches. LOL

[Aussie2B]

That's a convincing argument.

Can you give me an example?

To do so would be rather redundant because if you just scrolled up a little and read my previous posts, you'd see that I already gave an example. Unless you want to try to suggest that I'm lying about my life experiences or making it all up in my head. And that's ignoring all the experiences that I've heard from other women gamers too.

Really, you're in no place to state how women gamers are treated if you're not one yourself. Have you been going around asking women gamers how others react to their strong interest in video games and they all respond that the reaction is just great? Whether you want to believe it or not, my proof is the funny looks, snickers, and rude comments I've gotten since my teenage years. Even if there are some female gamers that have never experienced anything but good things, my experience alone PROVES there is a stigma out there, even if it's not a view that every last person possesses. Plus, I know I haven't just encountered a few bad apples, because this treatment I've received on opposite ends of the country, in big cities and small, from my peers and those who are older, etc.

And make no mistake, it's not just other women who are judgmental. I think men are actually more cruel about it than women. You don't even want to know how many times I've heard from men that chicks who are really into video games must be fat, hideous, tomboys, lesbians, and/or just plain weirdos.

So if you still want to believe that American society accepts female gamers just as well as male gamers, then, well, I don't know what else to tell you.

[Kai]

Every time I purchase games or gaming systems I seem to get some form of the following comments from the clerk.

"Birthday present?"
"Well, someone's getting a good present under the tree!"
"Some kids are going to be happy with you tonight."

Since I'm a girl they assume I couldn't possibly be buying them for myself.

[Aussie2B]

Yeah, I get that kind of stuff too. I find that as I get older, I feel more and more awkward in game stores. I know I stick out like a sore thumb, since girls are rare enough in game stores, let alone ones in their mid-20s. I don't like the feeling of everybody's eyes on me (not that they're necessarily continuously staring, but they do take notice for a moment), and it gets REALLY tiresome having the store clerk instantly walk up to me and bug me because they assume I must have no clue what I'm doing or looking for.

[WanganRunner]

Cooking Mama actually looks pretty cool. :D

I picked it up on Friday, it's actually a lot of fun.

Anyway, my fiance is most definitely not a gamer.

I do think that to a certain extent, some social angle would help her get into it, but I think it would somehow have to involve people she knows IRL. The whole concept of chatting with people on the internet whom you've never met is somewhat foreign to her (i.e. she doesn't do forums, but looooves MySpace).

I think it'd be pretty hard to get her into anything, honestly. I'm certainly not holding out for it, although I think the interactivity provided by the Wii might be my best bet.