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View Full Version : PS3-Sonys Saturn? 4 reasons why it could be



sabre2922
09-11-2006, 06:53 AM
from Segabase: Kamikaze Console

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Sega was too busy basking in its culture of corporate arrogance, which kept its top management personnel from realizing they had a problem on their hands until it had grown beyond their ability to control. The following is a comprehensive summary of all of the mistakes that Sega committed for the sake of the Saturn. It is a list of which all prospective console vendors should take heed.
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#1.Pricing the system too high for its intended market - You would think that Sega would have learned from Trip Hawkins and the blunders that were made with the 3DO, but instead it almost immediately committed the very same mistake that had doomed the 3DO to failure. Sega priced the Saturn too high for its intended market. Pricing trends that had been developing in the videogame market over the past two decades indicated that the average price for a brand-new, nextgen console should be within the US$200-$350 range. 3DO had been immediately doomed to extinction with its hefty US$800 price tag - a loftily absurd figure that seems ridiculous even now. For Sega to price the Saturn at US$399 was an open invitation to disaster in the minds of many industry analysts both then and now. Of course, there was a very good reason why Sega set the price of the Saturn so high: it was operating under a steadily growing mountain of debt. Even so, Sega should have been more willing to take a hit on the price of the console and instead look for needed funds in software sales, whence the real profits lay. Steven Kent sums up this particular issue as well as anybody in his seminal work The First Quarter when he observes, "[Saturn] was too expensive for the consumer elextronics category. The $399 price point was known to be more of a high-end electronics ticket - something that people might pay for a stereo component, but not for a videogame console. Sega was making the same mistake Trip Hawkins had made with the 3D0."

#2.Alienation of potential system supporters - Sega's once-strong relationship with third-party developers was fraying fast due to the managerial meddling from Sega of Japan. Like Nintendo before it, Sega had began to throw its weight around, dictating to its licensees what they could and could not do, how much and when, and so on. The third parties no more liked this in 1995 than they did in 1985 when Nintendo was pulling the exact same crap. Sega had by now also gained the unenviable reputation of "putting out one hardware unit after another." While Sega of Japan made it perfectly clear that Saturn was and always would be the company's future, many developers remained skeptical - especially after news of the rumored Eclipse 64-bit Saturn upgrade and the all-new Katana and Black Belt console designs leaked out in 1997. With all this confusion going on, it was no wonder that the third party community began to look elsewhere to push its products. They found it in Sony, who was very generous in its licensing terms and offered a console with simple-to-program architecture that yielded incredible results. In contrast, Sega spent a lot of its time pissing off third parties big time, so it was inevitable that they woud turn to Sony instead. It was the exact same thing that Sega had done to Nintendo and Nintendo had done to Atari years before. You would have thought that somebody at Sega saw it coming.

#3.Lack of a system library containing good, diverse software - If there is one lesson that you, the average gamer, should have learned by now, and it is one that I cannot emphasize enough, it is that software sales are the true money train of any given vendor's system. You have can have all the fancy hardware in the world, but if you don't have enough software that properly shows it off to your intended audience, then your system is going to suffer and you right along with it. Sega should have known better than to launch the Saturn the way it did in the U.S. - advance the release date so that there was almost no software for it, let along any good software. The scant handful of titles that were available were obviously and admittedly rushed. Not a good way to get your foot in the door of consumer's homes. Furthermore, the rushed launch meant that the console sat on store shelves for months without any significant software support. By the time it arrived, the opportunity that Sega had hoped to seize with an early launch had already passed and people were now looking at PlayStation instead. Sony may not have had Sega's experience in making videogames, but it had money and lots of it, and as Game Players put it, "Baby, that can buy you all the experience you need." Add to that the simplicity of the PlayStation architecture in comparison to the mess that comprised the Saturn's internals and it was no wonder that the third party community jumped ship as fast as it did. This trend would continue throughout the lifetime of both systems, with Sony's deep pockets enabling it to afford the third-party support and system exclusives that Sega simply could no longer afford as it lost precious market share and profits right along with it. The fact that Sony was able to do such things as launch the system with the backing of the likes of Namco and Konami, wrestle Square away from Nintendo (and the Final Fantasy RPG franchise along with it), get Capcom in its corner with its best programming teams and first go-round on hot titles (do the Street Fighter 2 and Resident Evil franchises ring a bell?), and welcome a disgruntled Working Designs from the Sega fold speaks volumes. Sony had the better and more diverse software library, with few exceptions, because they could afford to pay others to develop it for them. It's that simple.

#4.Shinobu ToyodaTom Kalinske-Refusing the good advice of your peers - The executives at Sega of Japan were hell-bent on making the Saturn work in a market that they knew full well was Sony's for the taking. Since their side of the company was the older and more experienced, or so the common wisdom went, then they supposedly knew what was best for Sega. Nakayama and his allies repeately ignored and overruled the advice of Sega of America president Tom Kalinske and his staff, as well as that of Shinobu Toyoda, their own U.S. market liason, on just about every critical aspect of the rapidly burgeoning 32-bit videogame market. They were going to make the American videogame market fall in love with the Saturn just as it had with the Genesis years earlier. What they forgot was that it was the American side of the business that had endeared Sega to its American fans, not its Japanese senior management. The same was true over in Europe, but Saturn had already flopped there and Sega of Japan was not about to waste any time and effort there. The U.S. was the big money market - the place where the stakes were the highest - and it was there that the Saturn should have succeeded. It did not because Nakayama and his staff were too busy refusing to listen to the good advice of Kalinske, Toyoda, and their fellows. "You're launching the system way too early," Nakayama and his staff were repeatedly warned. "It doesn't have the software base. You're wasting your efforts." Sega of Japan simply would not listen to those who best knew the intended market. It should have surprised no one what happened next.
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and many more reasons why it wont be HERE: http://www.eidolons-inn.net/segabase/SegaBase-Saturn(Part1).html

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jajaja
09-11-2006, 08:11 AM
I thought the main reason why Sega Saturn didnt make it was because that PSX was more powerful and had more and better games. I remember seeing commercials for games like Tekken etc. on TV here (Europe), but i never saw anything with Saturn. Hell, i dont think i heard about Saturn before 2002 or something.

Sony also had huge success with PSX and PS2 so i think people will buy a PS3 because of this. I will atleast, since i have PSX and PS2. I must buy PS3 to have the trioligy hehe ;)

slip81
09-11-2006, 09:12 AM
While a lot of good points are made, you really can't compare the Saturn to the PS3 mainly because the markets ae so different now.

Gone are the days when kids and parents dominated the buying and target demographic. Not the people game companies are after are us, males in their mid to late 20's, with a desire for the newest gadgets and nearly limiteless funds due to full time jobs, multiple jobs, and credit cards.

If the Saturn was released this november with a $399 price it would sell out everywhere simpley because of the fact that it's new.

Back in '95 the idea of lining up hours or days, or getting to a store at midnight for something was unheard of in this country, now it's the norm and happens all the time. There was also no ebay back then, so the idea of getting something that was short supplied just to flip it didn't happen either.

Also the Saturn and the 3DO were videogame systems and nothing more, the Wii's, 360's and PS3's of this generation are game players, media viewers, and high end DVD players, so the higher prices are more justified.

Now I don't thing that Sony is doing everything right, and the extreme high price I think will also mean that it doesn't come out on top (at least not right away), but I also don't think it's going to be a failure like the Saturn, DC, Jaguar, 3DO, etc were.

sega-trader
09-11-2006, 10:58 AM
All in all they were pretty equal in terms of power. The reasons listed in the original post was probably the main reasons for failure.

Also lack of power has nothing to do with failure. Dreamcast was very powerful yet failed. The PS2 is less powerful then the XBox, but it seems to be doing pretty well.


I thought the main reason why Sega Saturn didnt make it was because that PSX was more powerful and had more and better games. I remember seeing commercials for games like Tekken etc. on TV here (Europe), but i never saw anything with Saturn. Hell, i dont think i heard about Saturn before 2002 or something.

Sony also had huge success with PSX and PS2 so i think people will buy a PS3 because of this. I will atleast, since i have PSX and PS2. I must buy PS3 to have the trioligy hehe ;)

Oobgarm
09-11-2006, 11:11 AM
While a lot of good points are made, you really can't compare the Saturn to the PS3 mainly because the markets ae so different now.

Gone are the days when kids and parents dominated the buying and target demographic. Not the people game companies are after are us, males in their mid to late 20's, with a desire for the newest gadgets and nearly limiteless funds due to full time jobs, multiple jobs, and credit cards.

If the Saturn was released this november with a $399 price it would sell out everywhere simpley because of the fact that it's new.

Back in '95 the idea of lining up hours or days, or getting to a store at midnight for something was unheard of in this country, now it's the norm and happens all the time. There was also no ebay back then, so the idea of getting something that was short supplied just to flip it didn't happen either.

Also the Saturn and the 3DO were videogame systems and nothing more, the Wii's, 360's and PS3's of this generation are game players, media viewers, and high end DVD players, so the higher prices are more justified.

Now I don't thing that Sony is doing everything right, and the extreme high price I think will also mean that it doesn't come out on top (at least not right away), but I also don't think it's going to be a failure like the Saturn, DC, Jaguar, 3DO, etc were.

This post is exactly what I would have said.

In addition, the whole 'diverse library of games' argument is moot now since no system really has a library of diverse games. Either cookie-cutter sequels and/or copcat games are being churned out, or companies are resting on their proven series with little to no innovation.

jajaja
09-11-2006, 11:19 AM
Also lack of power has nothing to do with failure. Dreamcast was very powerful yet failed. The PS2 is less powerful then the XBox, but it seems to be doing pretty well.

I know that PSX can handle 3d much better than Saturn, but i dont know much more about it. Dreamcast was released well over 1 year before the PS2 and the Xbox was released about 1½ year after the PS2. The PSX and saturn was released almost at the same time and the price was almost the same. I belive that if people can choose between 2 machines at the same price, most will pick the one thats more powerful so i'd say it have something to do with success or not. They also promote how powerful the machines are etc, so i'd say people do consider these things before they buy.

diskoboy
09-11-2006, 01:54 PM
Saturn Schmaturn.....

I've been comparing it with the Atari 5200.

Sylentwulf
09-11-2006, 06:33 PM
Wow, this looks like the EXACT SAME POST as the "xbox 360 like the Sega Dreamcast" post. O_O

7th lutz
09-11-2006, 07:41 PM
good points, but you can't compare the two systems due to the differents eras.

United States games don't care about if a game is cookie-cutter sequel or a copycat game in 2006. In Japan, it is not the case as much. Systems that are multimedia is more accepted now. The ps2 is a good point of that. The difference is the ps3 has a format that hasn't been out long unlike the dvd in 2000. Dvds first came in 1995. Back in 95, most gamers were anywhere from being college students to kids in grade school. It is nol onger the case now days.

I think the price is a problem for those who don't want use the ps3 as a blu-ray movie player like myself. I think People like me would be going to the 360 or the wii due to the ps3 price and it costs so much due to a format that people like me wouldn't use. I have a dvd player and I have no plans on changing to blu-ray in the next 2 or 3 years at least.

Ps 3 is in a different position then the saturn was. Saturn used a proven format in cd and Blu-ray isn't a proven format. Sega is a video game company only and sony isn't.

7th lutz
09-11-2006, 07:55 PM
Also the Saturn and the 3DO were videogame systems and nothing more, the Wii's, 360's and PS3's of this generation are game players, media viewers, and high end DVD players, so the higher prices are more justified.


The 3do was considered a Multimedia system in its time. The 3do was able to play Audio cd's,CD+G, Photo CD's and VCD's with a MPEG attachment. VCD's was a format that movies were on. Sounds familar now. The 3do can be compared to the ps3 with booth being multimedia. The only difference was the 3do was even more expensive.

It may not be to you, but it was then in 1993 terms. Game magazines even called Multimedia in its times.

Niku-Sama
09-11-2006, 08:35 PM
i can kinda see where this guys commin from how ever if it does wind up being similar to the saturn i am sure sony will correct the problems before its too late, by then prices would have dropped in an effort to move units and then fix their 3rd party devlopment.

at the same time the saturn was kinda in a mid era situation made them selves vulnerable...thats atleast how i see it. and sega wasnt the quickest to realize and fix their problems as we all should know by now.

OdSquad64
09-11-2006, 09:17 PM
Wow, this looks like the EXACT SAME POST as the "xbox 360 like the Sega Dreamcast" post. O_O

Thats exactly what I thought.

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3145154

Although that article seems more like a humor peice and this one is just more Sony-must-fail-this-gen propaganda

Muscelli
09-11-2006, 09:21 PM
nintendo wii like xavix ?? X_x

Nature Boy
09-12-2006, 09:13 AM
... and this one is just more Sony-must-fail-this-gen propaganda

Absolutely.

The article starts by mentioning that pricing trends indicated a brand new console should be $200-$350. Didn't the 360 launch for more than that as well? Is it also a potential Saturn? Doesn't it make sense to take your argument to the next step and, you know, do some actual research on what the market is like *today* so that you can do proper comparisons?

(Especially when we're constantly hearing about the escalating cost of making games today, and how that cost will be passed onto the consumers with this next generation).

I enjoy articles like that but now when they're only half written...

segagamer
09-12-2006, 05:20 PM
I fail to see the analogy between the two systems. The price factor alone does not automatically make the PS3 a failure. The PS3 is a multimedia computer that can play games and Blu-Ray DVDs, in addition to other functions. The Sega Saturn was basically a game playing machine right out of the box. As for software, it is too early to tell how many titles will be available at launch for the PS3. I do, however, agree with your points regarding why the Saturn failed in the US market, but I think Sony will be smarter than Sega back then.

Having said that, I am not going to be buying a PS3, not only due to the high price but I really just want a console to play games and not much more than that. Plus I am waiting for that killer app that is exclusive to the PS3.

segagamer
09-12-2006, 05:27 PM
I meant not buying at launch.

john_soper
09-12-2006, 07:25 PM
The first PS3s will fly off the shelves no matter what the price. Sony can always drop the price after a year like they did with the PS2. It went from $299 to $199 right after my wife bought me one.

Griking
09-13-2006, 01:06 AM
Christ I wish the damn thing would just come out so everyone can stop all of the speculating.