Paypal chargeback from a NARU'd ebay user?

[Vroomfunkel]

How in the hell is this allowed to happen? Some guy in France bought a Mega CD game from me, I sent it off .. now, several weeks later he has filed a chargeback, claiming that he never received it - although he never once contacted me beforehand. I go to ebay to check the transaction, and his account is suspended, so I have absolutely no comeback at all.

Now, I have no funds in my Paypal account, and I have no intention of uploading any to send off to this little sheister - so presumably my Paypal account is going to be suspended?

Mightily pissed off by this ... why does Paypal allow chargebacks for suspended users?? :angry:

[Darth Sensei]

That sux Vroom.

http://www.paypalsucks.com/graphics/PaypalTerrified.jpg

[jajaja]

The Paypal account isnt hooked upto your Ebay account. If you get deleted from Ebay for some reason you still maintain your PP account, which means you can fill out complaints, since Paypal and Ebay are 2 different things (i know Ebay owns PP, but i guess u know what i mean).

It takes about 10 days for PP to investigate the complaint. Dont you get a chance to explain when u recive a complaint btw? Im sure they will look into why his Ebay account is suspended so its not sure hes guaranteed to get a refund.

[Vroomfunkel]

Yeah, but I can't initiate any kind of contact with him through ebay, as his account is suspended. Nor can I leave any follow-up to my feedback. In short, I am being skanked.

I sent him this following email yesterday - not that I expect it to have any effect. I also sent an email to Paypal customer services to ask why a suspended ebay user should be able to file a dispute. They haven't bothered to reply as yet.

Email to buyer:

I have received notification that you have filed an Paypal dispute for this item. Please note the following:

1) You chose standard airmail postage, not secure postage as you claim in your Paypal dispute. Standard airmail postage is not "secure". If you wanted insured postage then you should have paid for it.

2) You did not attempt to contact me in any way before filing the Paypal dispute. This is discourteous and contrary to my request for buyers to contact me if there are any problems

3) There is currently no money in my Paypal account - you will not be able to obtain a refund through this method.

4) Your eBay account is suspended, which does not encourage me to believe that you are a trustworthy person.

Considering all of this, I suggest the following course of action - if you cancel your Paypal claim, then I am willing to contact Royal Mail and request compensation for the missing package. They offer up to £30 compensation for all lost items of post - more than enough to cover the cost of this game - and I would have been more than happy to do this if you had ever actually bothered to contact me.

If you do not cancel the Paypal claim, I will do nothing. As there is no money in my account, you will receive nothing. I consider this more than appropriate, in view of your false statements, and dubious behaviour.

[walrusmonger]

paypal will give your account a negative amount and then when you get money into it it'll go right back to them.

[Vroomfunkel]

I know. Which is why I won't be using Paypal any more.

Tough shit, Paypal - not only do you not get to give the scammer my money, you also lose any potential future earnings you might have made from future items I sell. I don't take kindly to asshole scammers - nor to any business that helps them out.

Ever since I heard of people getting screwed over by scammers in this way before, I have ensured that I withdraw all funds from my Paypal account as soon as I receive them, in order to protect myself. Looks like it paid off.

Vroomfunkel

[jajaja]

paypal will give your account a negative amount and then when you get money into it it'll go right back to them.

Is this true? I've filled a complaint a few times, but i "always" get "no money on account" reason.

[Hounder]

It's true. Happened to me and it's messed up my account big time because I didn't even know it happened. And now I'm trying to take care of a problem because of this.

Paypal and Ebay both have made me mad lately and my patience has just about run out for both of them in which I will resort to dealing on the forums with people I know I can trust.

[jajaja]

But.. if they give you negative amount on your account, and the buyer doesnt get any money back, where does the money go? :eek 2:

[Vroomfunkel]

I've got the money that was paid for the item. I download my Paypal balances into my bank account regularly, so my Paypal balance is zero.

If the dispute is upheld, Paypal will make my account balance negative £15. After that, if any money is received into the account it will go automatically to cover the negative balance.

If any payment is made from the account, Paypal will add £15 to it to cover the deficit.

Hence my Paypal account is basically out of action for good from now on, because there's no way I am bending over for some two-bit little scam merchant. I've basically done with selling on eBay anyway, so it makes no odds to me. I'm glad I'm out of it too, it's just too full of scammers and rip-off merchants these days.

Everyone wants to charge £10 postage for a CD, and both eBay and Paypal couldn't give a monkeys about small-time sellers any more, they just want to kiss-ass to the high-volume and / or high-value sellers.

Good-bye, and good riddance in my opinion!

Vroomfunkel

[Griking]

I know. Which is why I won't be using Paypal any more.

Tough shit, Paypal - not only do you not get to give the scammer my money, you also lose any potential future earnings you might have made from future items I sell. I don't take kindly to asshole scammers - nor to any business that helps them out.

I hate to say it but I have to...

Yet another International eBay & PayPal transaction gone bad.

That being said, you really don't know that he scammed you, all you really know if that he filed a PayPal chargeback. There's always the possibility that he may not have received the item and had no way to contact you because his account was suspended. Accounts can be suspended for less sinister reasons. It sounds like you should have more of a beef with PayPal & eBay at this point.

[Steven]

paypal = buyer's dream
paypal = seller's (potential) nightmare

'nuff said.

[tornadostormxl]

Should i transfer all my money to my bank account?

[Vroomfunkel]

That being said, you really don't know that he scammed you, all you really know if that he filed a PayPal chargeback. There's always the possibility that he may not have received the item and had no way to contact you because his account was suspended. Accounts can be suspended for less sinister reasons. It sounds like you should have more of a beef with PayPal & eBay at this point.

Well, except that he lied in his Paypal claim, and said that he paid for secure delivery when he actually paid for standard airmail. And he has never emailed me, or replied to any of my emails. If he has access to his Paypal account, he has access to my email address so there's no reason he couldn't contact me.

But Paypal don't give a crap about that sort of thing - there's only three options given in their "resolve" dispute process:

1) Give a full refund
2) Prove that a full refund has been given
3) Prove, with tracking information, that the item was delivered

There's not even an option to give a comment, e.g. to point out that the claimant is lying.

So sod them all. I emailed Paypal, they came back with their bullshit about eBay and Paypal being "separate entities" (yeah, when it suits them).

[Vroomfunkel]

Should i transfer all my money to my bank account?

Yes. Always do this. If someone files a claim against you, and there is money in your Paypal account then 99 times out of 100 that money is as good as gone. All they claimant has to do is say that they received something "substantially different" to what they paid for, and paypal will freeze the money, and then take it from your account.

The only way out is to prove, somehow, that (for instance) you really did put a £200 computer in the box, rather than a toaster. Impossible you say? Welcome to the world of Paypal.

Always take all your money out of Paypal as soon as possible - otherwise you are in serious danger of losing lots of money. Looks like I'll probably lose my account, but at least I keep my money.

Vroomfunkel

[jajaja]

You wont lose your PP account over 1 complaint like this.

[jonjandran]

Just a thought. Paypal will also turn you account over to a credit agency if you don't pay them when you have a negative account.

[Kitsune Sniper]

If you have a negative account, wouldn't they take the money out of your bank account if you don't pay?

[Vroomfunkel]

Just a thought. Paypal will also turn you account over to a credit agency if you don't pay them when you have a negative account.

They can suck it. No credit agency is going to buy a £15 debt - there's nothing in it for them.


If you have a negative account, wouldn't they take the money out of your bank account if you don't pay?

Nope. It's illegal for them to take money from a someone's bank account without their authorisation. If any money is taken, I will call the bank and request them to cancel the transaction.


You wont lose your PP account over 1 complaint like this.

If I don't pay them the £15 my account will be effectively frozen, since I won't be able to send or receive any money without clearing the negative amount.

[jajaja]

Ah yes, thats true :\

[Kitsune Sniper]

If you have a negative account, wouldn't they take the money out of your bank account if you don't pay?

Nope. It's illegal for them to take money from a someone's bank account without their authorisation. If any money is taken, I will call the bank and request them to cancel the transaction.

Then how come eBay can do it?

If I don't pay my monthly fees, they take it out of my bank account WITHOUT my authorization. There is no way to tell the site to not take the money automatically. I almost got overdrawn because of those idiots.

[Griking]

If you have a negative account, wouldn't they take the money out of your bank account if you don't pay?

Nope. It's illegal for them to take money from a someone's bank account without their authorisation. If any money is taken, I will call the bank and request them to cancel the transaction.

Then how come eBay can do it?

If I don't pay my monthly fees, they take it out of my bank account WITHOUT my authorization. There is no way to tell the site to not take the money automatically. I almost got overdrawn because of those idiots.

I was always under the impression that PayPal WOULD most certainly withdraw any money owed from an attached checking account. What other reason would there be to require attaching your PayPal account to a checking account or credit card.

[Vroomfunkel]

I was always under the impression that PayPal WOULD most certainly withdraw any money owed from an attached checking account. What other reason would there be to require attaching your PayPal account to a checking account or credit card.

I don't know what the situation in the US is, but in the UK you have to give a company authorisation before they can take money from your account. If they take an unauthorised payment, you can request that your bank block the transaction. If the company have a beef with that, then it's up to them to contact you and sort it out - but they cannot just take money from your account.

[Kitsune Sniper]

I was always under the impression that PayPal WOULD most certainly withdraw any money owed from an attached checking account. What other reason would there be to require attaching your PayPal account to a checking account or credit card.

I don't know what the situation in the US is, but in the UK you have to give a company authorisation before they can take money from your account. If they take an unauthorised payment, you can request that your bank block the transaction. If the company have a beef with that, then it's up to them to contact you and sort it out - but they cannot just take money from your account.

The thing is, when you give them your bank information (which for some reason is needed to get a seller's account) you HAVE to give them authorization to take money away from you. And there is no way to undo that as far as I can see.

[yok-dfa]

The thing is, when you give them your bank information (which for some reason is needed to get a seller's account) you HAVE to give them authorization to take money away from you. And there is no way to undo that as far as I can see.

I guess you don't have so much consumer protection as we have here in Europe. In Holland it's the same, even if you give someone permission to take money out of your account, you can still cancel the transaction within a month. Just go to your bank and complain. They will get the money back within a few days without any questions asked. Only if you yourself initiated the transaction it can't be reversed.

[Darth Sensei]

I was always under the impression that PayPal WOULD most certainly withdraw any money owed from an attached checking account. What other reason would there be to require attaching your PayPal account to a checking account or credit card.

That's the danger of paying that way. A year ago a local gym was bought out by another group. Because many customers were paying monthly via automatic deductions the new owners were able to steal a ton of money from the owner's accounts when they "went out of business."

There was a huge thing in the local news about it with accompanying warnings of paying that way.

[jajaja]

So if you get negative fees on your PP account, and the buyer get no refund, where does the money go?

[jonjandran]

So if you get negative fees on your PP account, and the buyer get no refund, where does the money go?

What money ? Just because the make your Paypal account negative doesn't mean they get any money. They don't get anything unless you put money in the account.

So there is no money to go anywhere. I still have 4 people that Paypal has made their account negative for over 2 years and still no money. I don't hold out any hope.

[jajaja]

So if you get negative fees on your PP account, and the buyer get no refund, where does the money go?

What money ? Just because the make your Paypal account negative doesn't mean they get any money. They don't get anything unless you put money in the account.

So there is no money to go anywhere. I still have 4 people that Paypal has made their account negative for over 2 years and still no money. I don't hold out any hope.

If a buyer fills out a complaint, lets say $10. Paypal give the buyer the "no money in account" reason and the buyer wont get any refund. Then PP takes $10 from your account, but since its at $0 it will turn to -$10. To use your PP account again you must pay these $10. Who takes these money?

[jonjandran]

So if you get negative fees on your PP account, and the buyer get no refund, where does the money go?

What money ? Just because the make your Paypal account negative doesn't mean they get any money. They don't get anything unless you put money in the account.

So there is no money to go anywhere. I still have 4 people that Paypal has made their account negative for over 2 years and still no money. I don't hold out any hope.

If a buyer fills out a complaint, lets say $10. Paypal give the buyer the "no money in account" reason and the buyer wont get any refund. Then PP takes $10 from your account, but since its at $0 it will turn to -$10. To use your PP account again you must pay these $10. Who takes these money?

Oh "IF" you put the $10 back in to cover the negative then Paypal will give it to the person who filed the complaint.

[jajaja]

Seriously? I have filled complaint before, got no refund due to the emtpy account reason, but the seller is still selling with Paypal. I never got anything back :(

[Kitsune Sniper]

Seriously? I have filled complaint before, got no refund due to the emtpy account reason, but the seller is still selling with Paypal. I never got anything back :(

He probably got another account then.

[jajaja]

Possibly, but thats alot of hassle.

[jonjandran]

Possibly, but thats alot of hassle.

Not really , another checking account is all that's needed. I have 4 checking accounts and can open a new one online in 5 minutes.

[jajaja]

Oh.. thats right, you dont have to hook the account upto the CC.

[Vroomfunkel]

Hmm ... I guess I still have options then. I have three bank accounts and two credit cards, so I guess perhaps I could get another account.

[ChronoTriggaFoo]

I hate the fact that PayPal protects the rights of thieves. They will not disclose ANY of a buyer's information, even after they have been hit with negatives and suspended. They would not tell me why they stopped a deposit into my bank account a couple days into the process, and froze the money from the buyer. They only told me it was possible the individual purchased it with a fraudulent credit card. Other than that, they do whatever they can to cover their asses first which means protecting the thieves who cost everyone money. They actually told me I would need a lawyer to subpoena the information out of them. Out the money and item, with no right to be informed to take action.

[scorch56]

I hate the fact that PayPal protects the rights of thieves. They will not disclose ANY of a buyer's information, even after they have been hit with negatives and suspended.

.. so does eBay though. About 4 weeks ago I had a guy purchase two BINs off me. PayPal said it was an instant payment and I got ready to ship the items off. I noticed when I checked the Zip Code location through eBay.. it didn't match where PayPal was telling me to send the item off to. The zip eB had on record was in NH and the shipping addy was somewhere in the mideast. The buyer had a " .edu " e-mail address so I'm assuming he was college student. The odd thing was that Paypal said this guy's shipping address WAS confirmed and his ID/name was verified. His shipping name was "hobbit brain"! Gimme' a break! So I phoned PP and asked them all about it.. no answers.. they merely informed me that if I DID ship to the listed confirmed address/name (so I actually printed & paid for it through PP.. just to be sure) I would be covered under the "Seller's Protection Policy" should anything happen. BTW.. I forgot to mention the guy was an eBay "newb" icon, but had 2 +'s.. so I didn't think too much of it except for how PP could've verified him so quickly.

Two weeks pass and I check on the guy's shipments and they've been delivered.. but no contact or feedback from him. So I think everything's OK. A few days ago.. I notice (because his buys are still listed in my items sold column in My eBay) that he's suddenly been NARU'ed.. his FB now stands at 8, but has plummeted to <50%; and he's made his FB private (like it matters at that point :roll: )! I had to immediately go to my PP account and withdraw all money (Actually.. I'd just gotten a PP debit card.. so I went downtown and took it out in cash.). So far.. I haven't had anything happen to my account yet.. but I'm just waiting and I have NO idea what's going on. Perhaps daddy just gave college boy his credit card and got wind that he wasn't quite using it for collegiate expenses or something like that.. but I haven't a clue. In an effort to find out what's happening I decided to go into eBay's advanced search and see what else he had bid on "by bidder" or perhaps.. he was buying stuff and reselling before he even got it (his eB ID was " hconsignment2007 "). Ebay comes up with the outright LIE "This feature is temporarily unavailable, please try later." whenever I try to do a search on him. Funny thing is.. I can do those kinds of searches on myself or anybody else.. in the meantime.. just fine.

About the PayPal being able to withdraw money from a US bank account without permission thing.. I've always wondered about that. I've assumed it's true.. but have yet to hear from anyone it's actually happened to. My PP account is linked to my bank account simply because that's how I "instant pay" for my items. Over the years I've thought about making a second account at my bank that I could simply transfer money to online that ISN'T linked to PP.. but quite frankly.. the lack of any "bad experiences" with PP (aside from the fact that they once didn't back ME up in a dispute initiated by me as a buyer) has made me complacent. Maybe it's time to think about that. The PayPal debit card is one way you can get your money quick and in hand. PP charges me a buck for the service and my bank charges me $2.. but in a case like I just had.. I'll pay the $3 to have my money "in hand". You don't HAVE TO link the debit to your credit cards or bank account (I certainly didn't).. so once that money's spent or withdrawn.. they can't touch it obviously.

I've watched people's eBay accounts go "sour" a few times now.. right after they've had a successful transaction with me; but I've never had a chargeback or a PP buyer dispute filed against me.. so I've narrowly avoided disaster a few times. I know it's just a matter of time.. especially now that my eB activity is going to shift from mainly being a buyer to a seller.. but I've been merely lucky so far. Even if you link your PP account directly to your bank.. I keep thinking and hoping that it would be against the law for PP to take out money for anything except a BUY from you.. without permission.. or at least notice of some kind. This is the United States for god's sake.. you'd think we still have SOME rights left. But then again.. I've noticed you CAN'T look up a Europeans buyer/seller's past activity on eB through their search function either. It always comes up and says due to European laws.. that info is confidential.. so maybe you guys DO have more privacy/rights than we do.. I wouldn't be a BIT surprised and I envy you.

[Vroomfunkel]

You can't look up German past bidding / selling information, as they have very strict privacy laws, but I've not had any problem searching completed items for any other European country.

Oh, and the latest update on my situation is - as I suspected - Paypal have ignored my complaint that the buyer lied about his payment, and has been banned from ebay. My account is now suspended.

However I just opened two others, so I guess I'm not quite so shafted as I thought: I don't lose any money, plus the manky little scammer won't get any money out of his devious actions.

The irony is, if he had simply emailed me to say it had never arrived I would have just gone through the standard Royal Mail compensation procedure and got him a full refund - RM compensates up to £30 for all lost items of post. But there's no way I'm handing any money over to someone who doesn't even have the decency to correspond with me, or reply to email queries about their claim.

For the sake of any other unsuspecting souls, here's the guy's details:

Buyer's Name: Cihan KOC
Buyer's Email: snescollec@free.fr

Vroomfunkel