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slip81
09-18-2006, 05:54 PM
I was thinking about this the other day while playing my old save on super mario world; how long do you guys think this stuff will last?

I know right now that the battery in games can be replaced, and companies like Sony and Microsoft will repair systems, and parts to fix consoles can easily be found online. But due to the fact that most modern home console equipment has a tendancy to break, do you think we'll al reach a point in say 30 years or so when our PS2 or 360, or NES, or copy of Chrono Trigger shits the bed and it can't be fixed because it's so old?

Darren870
09-18-2006, 06:12 PM
I was thinking about that with cd based games. Why am I collecting when in 20 years it may never work?

God I hope thats not the case, i would hate to have that happen.

Im doubting it will though.

Cirrus
09-18-2006, 06:17 PM
That's one place emulation (or ripping ROMs off of your own cartridges) is helpful. We will never lose a game, entirely. (Well, for the most part.)

Even though many of us will never find a cabinet for many of the old arcade games from the late 70s, we can fire up our neighborhood MAME Cabinet and give them a whirl. Sure, it'll never be quite the same, but at least it's better than nothing.

Still, there's something special about playing the actual cart that would be missed. I can't see us not being able to play any of our games, in our lifetime, though. There will always be someone to repair or restore stuff.

The REAL question is: When and where can I get my hands on some TURTLE PIES?

http://usera.imagecave.com/Cirrus/raph.jpg

No, seriously, I'll pay a lot.

s1lence
09-18-2006, 06:32 PM
You know this question comes up every few months. I woul d be more concerned about keeping a 60 year old 2600 going. Those systems are already 30 years old and they for the most part can always be repaired. Playstations are fairly plentiful, parts for them will be around for quite awhile in my opinion.


I could go for a Turtle Pie. LOL

Synergy
09-18-2006, 06:55 PM
I was thinking about this the other day while playing my old save on super mario world; how long do you guys think this stuff will last?

This is an internal struggle I have when collecting. It's always better to have the actual game instead of a ROM or image, but since ROMs and images are computer files and have no physical form, they can't possibly wear out.

But then you have to put up with the emulator's shortcomings, and playing ROMs and images without a physical copy is illegal anyway.

And around and around we go. x_x But I, for one, keep pressing on to collect because:

A) I only want to collect games in near perfect condition, and I take extra special care of them at all times. So I'm sure I'll die before my games do, save for the rare quirky cartridge that just decides to go kaput out of nowhere.

B)
There will always be someone to repair or restore stuff.

jajaja
09-18-2006, 07:02 PM
I bet cartridge based games will last for like 50-100 years. Newer CD games will most likely last just as long (like TDK CD-R guarantee 100 years of life. I know, it cant be proven 100%, but still). How it is with old CD based games, i dont know. Some day all will be lost tho, but you might be old and burried before it happends.

mquay124
09-18-2006, 07:28 PM
One thing I've wondered about is all the old discrete logic arcade games from the early/mid 70s. They can't be emulated in MAME, and the relative lack of info on them at KLOV seems to indicate that they're scarce. Are these games on the verge of becoming "extinct"?

crazyjackcsa
09-18-2006, 08:08 PM
I think what is often forgotten is that one day these collections will stop being collections of games, and will become collections of antiques. How many 100 year items do you use everyday? Sure they won't work, but they'll still be collectable.

boatofcar
09-18-2006, 08:20 PM
You can still get vintage radios from the 40's and before repaired. I wouldn't worry about your video game systems.

pookninja
09-19-2006, 08:31 AM
That's one place emulation (or ripping ROMs off of your own cartridges) is helpful. We will never lose a game, entirely. (Well, for the most part.)

Even though many of us will never find a cabinet for many of the old arcade games from the late 70s, we can fire up our neighborhood MAME Cabinet and give them a whirl. Sure, it'll never be quite the same, but at least it's better than nothing.

Still, there's something special about playing the actual cart that would be missed. I can't see us not being able to play any of our games, in our lifetime, though. There will always be someone to repair or restore stuff.

The REAL question is: When and where can I get my hands on some TURTLE PIES?

http://usera.imagecave.com/Cirrus/raph.jpg

No, seriously, I'll pay a lot.yeah,i could go for a few turtle pies myself,or any vanilla pudding pie like that.i cant find any in my neck of the woods

heybtbm
09-19-2006, 09:56 AM
I buy doubles of every console I have...usually when the price comes down after a few years. I've spent (as have most people here) tens of thousands of dollars in video game software over the years and will be damned if I won't be able to play certain titles because of a broken system. I have consoles waiting "on deck" so to speak, still new in their box and never used. Luckily, I'm still on my first version of every console (even my '81 2600 still works) but if the need arises in the future...I'm set.

cyberfluxor
09-19-2006, 10:33 AM
Mmm, the day my stuff doesn't work is the day I'm amazed. I've only had problems with 3 things:
1) Plugged a variable AC adaptor into a 2600 that was set too high of a voltage blowing the capacitor. (Can be fixed vary easily.

2) The ultimate blinking screen on the NES. Typical and expected for the toaster, it needs replacement leads but I plan to trade it into a particular store up the road from my house once he gets a top loader in and I pay the difference.

3) A 32x that displayed all layers but the sprites! Even played music and everything. It was used and purchased from a game store and was FUBAR from the start. What a POS, good thing it was $8 with all the wires that do work giving me AVI for my genesis and a spare AC adaptor. :)

So, I'm not too worried about games going bad unless I toss them into a massive EMF or stick them into my game system while it's nearly frozen. Just won't do that at room temperature, and most things aren't exposed to the extent where I need to worry about rust and heavy dust.

tom
09-19-2006, 02:03 PM
My Magnavox Odyssey carts (cards) from 1972/73 still work fine, that just goes to show, Pong will survive.

PingvinBlueJeans
09-19-2006, 02:18 PM
You can still get vintage radios from the 40's and before repaired. I wouldn't worry about your video game systems.
Exactly...I don't why anyone would even ask this question or think that game cartridges are just going to stop working someday. Why would they? All of my systems going back to Atari 2600 still work, and as long as you take care of your stuff, why would yours not continue to work? I think a more relevant question is the question of who is really going to want this stuff in a hundred years...but we won't be around to worry about that.

Haoie
09-19-2006, 04:53 PM
PS style mem cards don't last forever, well nothing does.

I think it's been shown that the longevity of the saves remaining intact depends on the brand of card, its age, its condition, and how many times its been saved on.

Jimmy Yakapucci
09-19-2006, 06:01 PM
My thought about repairing current consoles years from now is this: Will it really be feasiblie to repair them since in our disposable society more and more things are made to work, die, and be replaced instead of repaired. Think about it, how many CD players, telephones, other consumer electronics actually get repaired these days.

cyberfluxor
09-19-2006, 06:42 PM
My thought about repairing current consoles years from now is this: Will it really be feasiblie to repair them since in our disposable society more and more things are made to work, die, and be replaced instead of repaired. Think about it, how many CD players, telephones, other consumer electronics actually get repaired these days.
If it's going to continue use then yes, it gets repaired. But, since things go out of phase real fast in the areas you're talking about there's no point in fixing it up when something better is already available.

Tape players -> CD players -> MP3 players

Just the other week I finally got rid of my CD and Tape players because I just don't need them anymore, but they still worked. There's just better things I have now that made them ancient past and if they were to break on me it'd just be some reason to buy a newer replacement product faster.

Kid Ice
09-19-2006, 08:42 PM
But due to the fact that most modern home console equipment has a tendancy to break

This is a fact?

I don't know what you guys are up to but I have not yet had a game console I've purchased new break.

Less than 1% of the games and consoles that pass through this house (including scracthed up CDs and C64 floppies) fail to work. So I'm not losing any sleep over stuff not working in the future.

jajaja
09-20-2006, 07:12 AM
Statisticly new consoles have a bigger chance to break since its alot more moving parts in them.

GarrettCRW
09-20-2006, 09:39 AM
Statisticly new consoles have a bigger chance to break since its alot more moving parts in them.

If newer consoles break more frequently, it's generally because the manufacturer cuts corners in an effort to cut the costs of the system that they're selling at a loss.

rbudrick
09-20-2006, 10:36 AM
Exactly...I don't why anyone would even ask this question or think that game cartridges are just going to stop working someday. Why would they? All of my systems going back to Atari 2600 still work, and as long as you take care of your stuff, why would yours not continue to work? I think a more relevant question is the question of who is really going to want this stuff in a hundred years...but we won't be around to worry about that.

Well they may still work in your lifetime, but electronic components in game systems WILL fail. Capacitors leak, transformers blow, contacts get worn or oxidated. Systems will all die, especially those with optical drives.

Backwards compatibility is key for newer systems.

-Rob

Zap!
09-22-2006, 12:13 AM
I'd be willing to bet that taken care of reasonably well, the shelf life for a cartridgge or CD game is about 100 years. That likely won't affect any of us here, but what about future genorations? What happens when in 2250, they want to play games from the 80's, 90's, and today? Surely by then, they won't work, and even if they did, the box, instructions, and label would be tainted by the air, unless it's in some sort of airtight chamber. Then again, who knows if there will even be civilization in 2250...

Wavelflack
09-25-2006, 10:15 PM
Gemini posted a thread that was locked and redirected here, but of course his post was not copied and pasted into this thread, which makes it a fucking hassle to actually reply to. So I'll go this route:
[ahem]


Lasers always on them


For the zillionth time--the laser is not going to degrade your CD. The laser has a milliwatt or two of output. Probably less. Your $5 gas station laser pointer has a higher output. Take one of those, and point it at a digital thermometer all night long. See how much it heats it. If you haven't felt sufficiently foolish by this point, silver the end of the thermometer to a mirror finish, and then try the experiment again! You didn't see any temperature change the first time, so you'll have to imagine how much less than nothing you are affecting the thermometer, now that it is reflecting 99.9% of your milliwatt of laser output that didn't do anything to begin with. Now make your thermometer rotate in and out of your laser beam, so that your .0001% of your milliwatt is only present for 100th of a second before it moves out of the way and radiates away the trillionth of a calorie that the thermometer had. Also figure up what the melting point of aluminum is, so that you would have to reach that point to distort that reflective layer. The substrate likely has a lower melting point, but it's transparent, and that doesn't help things much.

Anyway..


You'll have to go here to understand the point of all of this:
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=92982

zektor
09-25-2006, 10:58 PM
I personally think that certain media will last longer than others. CD/DVD based media completely blows IMHO. Maybe they are made better, but it was not too long ago that I broke out a few Turbografx CD's that were completely unreadable. These were store bought by myself, and stored in their cases/boxes, in a cool dry place (a cabinet). I didn;t play them for a few years, and when I finally had some time...bam. Dead discs. What a joke. Disc rot? Who knows...

All I do know is that I have cartridge based games from the 70's that still fire up like a champ. Of course I am a freak about keeping everything preserved and super clean, and my carts are no exception. Still, they are just as old as I am, and still work like I just purchased them.

With my personal experience in thought, I would say that it is my opinion that cart based media will be the one to outlast CD/DVD based media. But this is only my opinion...

As for consoles, surely the ones that have more movable components (disk drives, CD/DVD drives, etc) will be the ones to fail first. The older systems with non-movable components will fail someday as well of course (due to oxidation, dust, whatever), but will certainly outlast the others.

I have a few Atari 800 and 2600 systems that are nearly 30 years old, and work great. Do YOU think your Xbox 360 will be perfectly functional in 2036?

zektor
09-25-2006, 10:59 PM
I personally think that certain media will last longer than others. CD/DVD based media completely blows IMHO. Maybe they are made better now, but it was not too long ago that I broke out a few Turbografx CD's that were completely unreadable. These were store bought by myself, and stored in their cases/boxes, in a cool dry place (a cabinet). I didn;t play them for a few years, and when I finally had some time...bam. Dead discs. What a joke. Disc rot? Who knows...

All I do know is that I have cartridge based games from the 70's that still fire up like a champ. Of course I am a freak about keeping everything preserved and super clean, and my carts are no exception. Still, they are just as old as I am, and still work like I just purchased them.

With my personal experience in thought, I would say that it is my opinion that cart based media will be the one to outlast CD/DVD based media. But this is only my opinion...

As for consoles, surely the ones that have more movable components (disk drives, CD/DVD drives, etc) will be the ones to fail first. The older systems with non-movable components will fail someday as well of course (due to oxidation, dust, whatever), but will certainly outlast the others.

I have a few Atari 800 and 2600 systems that are nearly 30 years old, and work great. Do YOU think your Xbox 360 will be perfectly functional in 2036?

zektor
09-25-2006, 11:00 PM
Oops...didn't mean to quote myself. WHat I say is now *that* important! LOL

Xexyz
09-25-2006, 11:53 PM
I don't know, I'd wager that today's CD and DVD pressed game discs will outlast the old cartridge games. Those EEPROMS are sure to suffer from bit rot sooner or later.

Panzerfuzion
09-29-2012, 02:42 AM
I've wondered this myself about cartridges.

Rickstilwell1
09-29-2012, 02:58 AM
and playing ROMs and images without a physical copy is illegal anyway.



B)


Nobody said your physical copy had to still be working in order for it to count. You can have a broken game and the rom would be ok as long as you kept the plastic that proves you bought it.

kupomogli
09-29-2012, 04:45 AM
and playing ROMs and images without a physical copy is illegal anyway.

Old topic, but I've heard this was a myth and that playing roms and images, regardless if you had the physical copy or not, was illegal. Can't be too illegal. I've never heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. Just warnings to webmasters to take down their companies property from the site.

Rickstilwell1
09-29-2012, 06:49 AM
Old topic, but I've heard this was a myth and that playing roms and images, regardless if you had the physical copy or not, was illegal. Can't be too illegal. I've never heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. Just warnings to webmasters to take down their companies property from the site.

My favorite romsite is based in Russia where these companies can't touch them. They probably don't have jurisdiction or the laws there to do anything to them. Unlike most sites the downloads are unlimited and don't require having to solve capatchas or anything. It's one game preservation site I feel really safe about relying on not being shut down. A lot of the US based romsites have popular franchises taken out of their lists to protect them from getting these notices and included timers etc that make you put more effort than you should need to into it.

duffmanth
10-01-2012, 09:06 AM
I think it'll reach that point some day, but by then all of these retro games will be digital downloads and stored in the cloud, so you can play them on whatever device.

BydoEmpire
10-02-2012, 11:05 AM
My Atari and Intellivision carts are still running strong after 30+ years, I would expect them to keep running a long time.

I hope my disc based games (and consoles) survive another few decades because I've got a lot of PS1 and PS2 RPGs on my retirement list.

jb143
10-02-2012, 11:49 AM
I don't know, I'd wager that today's CD and DVD pressed game discs will outlast the old cartridge games. Those EEPROMS are sure to suffer from bit rot sooner or later.

I know it's an old topic (and post) but I just wanted to point out that most production cartridges don't use EEPROM but use masked ROM instead, which have a much much longer expected lifespan.

This can be a concern with prototypes, which are likely to use EEPROMS, but not most other games. Cartridges are far more likely to fail from physical damage(which can usually be repaired)...in which case they are more durable than disc media(which usually can not be repaired).

Gameguy
10-02-2012, 08:22 PM
Old topic, but I've heard this was a myth and that playing roms and images, regardless if you had the physical copy or not, was illegal. Can't be too illegal. I've never heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. Just warnings to webmasters to take down their companies property from the site.
Basically you're allowed to backup your own games for personal use, but you aren't really allowed to download other copies from online. You're supposed to be backing them up yourself. Since these are mass produced games with identical code, a lot of people are saying you only need to own the actual game and it's fine to download them. I get that argument as there's no major difference with the end result, it's just technically wrong. And as there are actual games that have been released for free including some prototypes from actual developers, there's not really too much enforcement going on.


My Atari and Intellivision carts are still running strong after 30+ years, I would expect them to keep running a long time.

I hope my disc based games (and consoles) survive another few decades because I've got a lot of PS1 and PS2 RPGs on my retirement list.
I have a feeling older cart games are going to outlast newer carts. Once carts start having batteries or flash memory for saving there's more to fail on them, these might not be 100% repairable either if the parts become scarce or if dead batteries start eating through the boards. With CD games it depends on how they were manufactured, some will fail sooner than others. The major problem with CD games are with the hardware to play them or memory cards. Those will fail sooner than the actual discs.

Greg2600
10-02-2012, 09:50 PM
The CD/DVD games are really the question. Though I think most discs are manufactured well enough to last awhile, the systems are another story. Pretty much anything other than SEGA CD or the Playstations use proprietary media formats. Making the playing of them on PC's impossible. Download of the games, of course, would be playable on emulators. There is that Russian guy who made the 3DO IDE adapter for the FZ-10 model. I would expect that we could see more of those in the future, allowing the use of the systems via hard drive, if the disc drives fail.

yanclae
07-15-2013, 03:27 AM
It no longer matters. Good games will last indefinetly. That's why people create discussion forums to be nostalgic and such.

-There is no longer any processing rate issues.
-There is no longer any pixellation issues.

We are even enterring an era wherein every "Menu" will be nearly identical, carrying over essential "intuitive" browse-features that Steve Jobs initiated several years ago.

The overall threshold for change is far to great for any revolutionary platforms. A good game will last, and be compatible with any system.

Gameguy
07-15-2013, 03:41 AM
It no longer matters. Good games will last indefinetly. That's why people create discussion forums to be nostalgic and such.

-There is no longer any processing rate issues.
-There is no longer any pixellation issues.

We are even enterring an era wherein every "Menu" will be nearly identical, carrying over essential "intuitive" browse-features that Steve Jobs initiated several years ago.

The overall threshold for change is far to great for any revolutionary platforms. A good game will last, and be compatible with any system.

"End communication."

http://i40.tinypic.com/2wn036u.png

Gamevet
07-16-2013, 11:52 PM
I'm more concerned with finding a CRT that will work in 20 or 30 years. My light-gun games will become useless, if I don't have a SD CRT to play them on.

Tron 2.0
07-17-2013, 01:30 AM
I'm more concerned with finding a CRT that will work in 20 or 30 years. My light-gun games will become useless, if I don't have a SD CRT to play them on.
Now that is a concern and some thing i thought about as well.Other then the fact,that crt are the ones that have s-video while hd tv do not.

Gameguy
07-17-2013, 02:40 AM
I'm more concerned with finding a CRT that will work in 20 or 30 years. My light-gun games will become useless, if I don't have a SD CRT to play them on.
Here's someone with a restored TV from the 1950's, still fully functional as of 2011.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMWbvVdAFiE

I would think CRTs from the 1990's would still be working 30 years from now, with some proper maintenance. If anything the capacitors would need replacing. Of course now is the time to stockpile spares as everyone is giving them away, it's not that they won't last 30 years but they'll be hard to find as most people will just trash them due to obsolescence.


Now that is a concern and some thing i thought about as well.Other then the fact,that crt are the ones that have s-video while hd tv do not.
I've seen some HDTVs with S-video connections so they do exist, there's a Philips HDTV monitor at a thrift near me with S-video as of yesterday. I didn't buy it because there's no built in tuner.

Tron 2.0
07-17-2013, 02:50 AM
Here's someone with a restored TV from the 1950's, still fully functional as of 2011.
I've seen some HDTVs with S-video connections so they do exist, there's a Philips HDTV monitor at a thrift near me with S-video as of yesterday. I didn't buy it because there's no built in tuner.
Really i usually don't see them on newer hds tv or is s-video just found on older models now ?

Gameguy
07-17-2013, 03:54 AM
Really i usually don't see them on newer hds tv or is s-video just found on older models now ?
I wrote down the model number as I wanted to look it up, it's a 26FW5220. I believe it's a few years old, around 2005 if I'm remembering correctly.

Gamevet
07-17-2013, 09:59 AM
Here's someone with a restored TV from the 1950's, still fully functional as of 2011.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMWbvVdAFiE

I would think CRTs from the 1990's would still be working 30 years from now, with some proper maintenance. If anything the capacitors would need replacing. Of course now is the time to stockpile spares as everyone is giving them away, it's not that they won't last 30 years but they'll be hard to find as most people will just trash them due to obsolescence.

.

A television from the 50's uses tubes, while more modern televisions use integrated circuits. Solid state TVs are not as easy to repair, should a dedicated chip, like the tuner, dies.

Zthun
07-17-2013, 11:28 PM
While not perfect, if carts and batteries do go out, you could always go with a flash cart that plays on the actual hardware. That bypasses emulation all together and you get the original hardware experience. This, of course, only works for old cartridge based systems and handhelds.