360 HD-DVD add on at $199 makes Sony's case for them!

[Anthony1]

Ok, before anybody jumps to any conclusions, please read this entire thread and understand what I'm talking about, and then you can tell me that I'm a blundering idiot.


First off, I want to say that I do not, in any way, shape or form consider myself to be a fanboy. I'm not too interested in the companies that make hardware or even the companies that make the games. I'm much more interested in the actual gaming experiences themselves. When it comes to Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft, I don't really have any vested interest in seeing any of these companies come out on top. None of them are paying me any salary, and I don't own stock in any of the 3 companies. so it really doesn't matter to me who get's the No.1 market share this upcoming generation. Having said all of that, I will admit that deep down inside, I'm kinda rooting for Sony to get their ass handed to them. But wait, you just said that you weren't a fanboy, but you are actively rooting against Sony? Well, yeah, I honestly don't consider myself a fanboy, but I'm kinda rooting against Sony because they have been so damn arrogant over the years, thinking they own this industry and they can do no wrong. They've kinda been pissing me off. I honestly wouldn't mind seeing them crash and burn. Anywho, I just wanted to mention that before I get into my take on this, because I don't want people to get the mis-informed idea that I'm secretly a Sony fanboy or something.


Ok, having gotten that out of the way, the thing that I wanted to talk about is the price of the HD-DVD add on for the Xbox 360. Alot of gamers that are also into home theater type stuff have really been wondering how Microsoft is going to price the HD-DVD add on. The reason why there was so much debate about it, is that Microsoft hinted that a 360 and the HD-DVD add on, would still be less than the price of the PS3. Yet, they announce the HD-DVD add on is $199.99. We all know that the premium 360 is $399.99. So you combine the two, and it's 600 smackers. The same price as the higher end PS3. Why is this a big deal? Because Sony has to be smiling for the moment, because if you really compare things head to head, the PS3 looks to get the better of the comparison.


The high end version of the PS3 contains these main features:

7 cores
HDMI output
Blu Ray drive for games and movies
60 gig hard drive
Built in Wi-Fi support
Everything is integrated into one nice (and very ugly) package with no need for add-on's or accesories that need to be tethered to the main console



The 360 + HD-DVD combo contains these main features:

3 cores
component or VGA output
HD-DVD drive for movies only
20 gig hard drive
Wi-Fi adapter available seperately for $99.99



So if you compare them both head to head, they both cost 600 smackers, but if you want to use a wireless router with the 360, you need to spend another $99 for the 360 wireless adapter. That actually makes the 360 combo (360 + HD-DVD + Wireless adapter) $100 more expensive than the higher end PS3. Not only is it $100 more expensive, but it has a 20 gig hard drive instead of a 60 gig hard drive, and it also lacks a HDMI plug. And then of course there is the factor that although you can buy the wireless adapter seperately, and the 360 HD-DVD add on seperately, when you add all those pieces together, you kinda have a hodge-podge of stuff connected to the back of your 360, tethered together, and moving your 360 from one room to another becomes a much more daunting task to undertake. Do you take the HD-DVD unit with you? Do you leave it? If you leave it, then you need to unplug the wireless adapter from the back of the HD-DVD unit, so that you can still go wireless with your 360 in the other room. Or, plug the HD-DVD's usb cable into the front of the 360 to avoid that nightmare, but who the heck wants a usb cable from the HD-DVD drive going into the front of the 360? That would look pretty unsightly. So the advantage of having everything nice and neatly packed into the George Foreman grill is a nice advantage I must admit.


Of course, all of this only matters to gamers that would like to use wi-fi and also have an interest in a next-gen High Def DVD movie format. For those that have no interest in Wi-Fi or High Def movies, this comparison is meaningless. But for the people that are interested in that, this is a pretty interesting deal. If I'm Sony, I'm shouting from the rooftops that hey, we have Wi-Fi built in! You have to pay $100 just for Wi-Fi! We have our high def DVD player built in, you have to tether yours around like a dog on a leash! Our games can actually use our high def DVD storage medium, your stuck with 9 gig DVD's, and so on and so on. Sony can really claim some advantages here.


So what will Microsoft's answer to all this be? I've got two words.

Price


DROP


The 360 will get a price drop this November. At least $50 off the premium and core systems. The Wi-Fi adapter's price will be slashed in half. Those two moves will negate much of Sony's claims. Sony could have claimed that the 360 + HD-DVD + Wireless Adapter is actually $100 more than the premium PS3, but if the Premium 360 drops $50 in price, and the wireless adapter is cut in half, then the price is the same. What about HDMI you say? What about the extra 40 gigs of hard drive space? How does Microsoft answer to that? It's pretty simple. They could cut the price of the premium and Core 360 even more than $50. If they cut it my $100, it would make people forget all about those little differences. Only thing is, cutting the price by $100 would be cause even more losses for that division, I'm not sure they want to deal with that this Xmas, especially with the PS3 in such short supply. Actually, they will probably just stick with the $50 price drop, and then very late in the Spring of 2007, they will release a new version of the Xbox 360. The "Platinum Edition" Xbox 360. The PE Xbox 360, will feature a 200 gig hard drive, HDMI, built in HD-DVD player, etc, etc. And be cheaper than the high end PS3. That is how Microsoft is going to counteract this. But until all this stuff becomes public knowledge, it's going to be interesting to see how Sony spins the $199 HD-DVD price, in relation to their premium PS3 unit.


If I'm Sony, I take advantage of the mismatch while I got it. It will be very short lived. :eek 2:

[Vectorman0]

I'm not going to lie and say I read your post in its entirety when I really didn't, but I could have sworn a price drop was already discussed: Link (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=92481).

I see what you are saying, but I don't think it is nearly a big of a deal as you make it out to be. To me, the wireless isn't of use, so the systems are at the same price, assuming I intend to get a HD-DVD unit. I imagine that alot of other people don't need the wireless adapter either. From what I understand, the HDMI cable isn't included in the box for PS3, which is added cost. And once Microsoft releases theirs, and updates the dashboard with 1080p support, the systems look mighty equal to me. The PS3 might have 40 GB more hard drive space, which is very welcome, but I don't see myself having any trouble with the 360 HD's capacity anytime soon, as long as I delete all of the demos and videos I get on it.

PS - Try to shorten your posts, I promise you will get more and better responses that way.

[Darren870]

If you don't care about companies who make the hardware why do you always seem to post this stuff?

[Andred]

You blundering idiot! Just kidding.

You make some good points about how the PS3 is self-contained and actually cheaper (at the moment) than the 360 with a comparable setup. It definitely has the ease of use factor.

However, my biggest gripe about the PS3 is the fact that, if I decided to buy one, I have no choice whether or not to get a Blue-Ray player to play my movies on my 10 year-old 19" tv. With the Xbox360 I can get the system now and get an HD-DVD drive later on if I ever upgrade my tv. In this case the Blue-Ray player is a waste of my money that is forced upon me if I want to enjoy a PS3.

Then again, the 360 is going to run up against the fact that add-ons NEVER work. Peripherals that are added after the fact just don't get the support they need to succeed because the content developers don't have a guaranteed market. The VAST majority of games on the 360 will NEVER take advantage of the HD-DVD's capacity because only 2 in 10 people that buy a console will also buy the HD-DVD addon. Because of that the PS3 has a huge advantage as far as storage for games goes. 360 is confined to 9GB and PS3 has available 60GB.

It's still hard for me to make a decision on whether the 360 or PS3 is better. I guess it's because they're both just so generic that it's tough to distinguish them (except for PS3's shiny Spider-Man font). All I can say is "Viva la Wii"!

[Andred]

No edit!

Not to mention that Wi-Fi is just about worthless in my experience. Wi-Fi connections drop... alot! Imaging the amount of whining from kids playing Halo3 when they drop their wireless connection and die every 5 minutes. Oooh the horror!

[jajaja]

$199 eh? Is that worldwide? If so, it will cost more than the PS3. The 20gb model is about $400 in Japan atleast. Now, im sure people will come with the "the hd-dvd player is optional" comment, which is true, but still.. If you want to compare the hardware to the price, the hd-dvd player must be included imo.

Its also only a matter of time before games come to hd-dvd and that they announce the 360 with build-in hd-dvd player. Might take 1-2 years, but im sure we'll see it.

[slip81]

Then again, the 360 is going to run up against the fact that add-ons NEVER work. Peripherals that are added after the fact just don't get the support they need to succeed because the content developers don't have a guaranteed market. The VAST majority of games on the 360 will NEVER take advantage of the HD-DVD's capacity because only 2 in 10 people that buy a console will also buy the HD-DVD addon.

The games aren't meant to take advantage of the HD-DVD drive, it will be used for movies only, so companies don't have to worry about supporting it with software.

I can't remember exactly where I read it, but I do remember Moore saying something along the lines of the HD-DVD being for movies only, and that MS will not release a version of the 360 with the drive built in because they don't want to force it on consumers. His theory seemed to be (at the time) that the company didn't want the 360 to have any added stuff that wasn't for gaming.

As for Sony's claim that they have all this extra shit built in, I think I can speak for most of the gaming community when I say, who cares?

Anyone who games online knows that wi-fi isn't all that reliable, and it's not as fast as ethernet, which is a big deal when 16 people are tying to race around the night streets of Tokyo or wherever at 200mph in 1080p, you need all the bandwidth you can get.

And anyone who has even a slight interest in HD knows that Blu-Ray in it's current state is crap, and not nearly as good as HD-DVD. That may change in a few years, but right now, have you ever seen blu-ray? I have at a Sony Style store, and both me, and my girlfriend agreed that it didn't really look that much better than standard DVD.

I think the real fact of the matter is is that most people don't care about all that added crap that the ps3 has. I'm willing to bet that 90% of the people who buy the thing are gonna watch standard dvd's on it, hook it up to a 27" 4:3 SDTV with composite cables, and plug and eternet cord into the back.

Personally I'm glad that the 360 doesn’t have all that extra stuff bundled in. I don't want wi-fi, ethernet works great, why pay extra for something I don't need. Same goes for HD-DVD, I'm interested in it, but right now the two sides are so divided anyone who settles on a format is a fool IMO, because they won't last, and whichever one dies first the other will eventually become light-years better.

I'll probably get the HD-DVD addon, but only if blu-ray fails as a format, because I don't want to have to have TWO high def DVD players just so I can watch Batman and Spider-Man in 1080, and I don't think anyone else does either.

[DonMarco]

Ok, having gotten that out of the way, the thing that I wanted to talk about is the price of the HD-DVD add on for the Xbox 360. Alot of gamers that are also into home theater type stuff have really been wondering how Microsoft is going to price the HD-DVD add on. The reason why there was so much debate about it, is that Microsoft hinted that a 360 and the HD-DVD add on, would still be less than the price of the PS3. Yet, they announce the HD-DVD add on is $199.99. We all know that the premium 360 is $399.99. So you combine the two, and it's 600 smackers. The same price as the higher end PS3.
Combine the two and it's $599.98. Which is "less" than $599.99. Obviously. And the Core 360 + HD DVD player is $500, which is competitive for other HD DVD players on the market. Hopefully it will be a really nice one, like the 360 DVD player.

Try to remember that HD DVDs are not for everyone. You need to buy HD DVDs to use the damn thing. You also need a HD TV, which is still not really all that common everywhere. Some will adopt the format now, or next year, or the year after that. More people, and gamers, are getting into building home theaters. Big screen HD TV sets, PS3s and 360 HD for playing the HD movies and all that. More so that they used the PS2/Xbox as the primary DVD player.


So if you compare them both head to head, they both cost 600 smackers, but if you want to use a wireless router with the 360, you need to spend another $99 for the 360 wireless adapter. That actually makes the 360 combo (360 + HD-DVD + Wireless adapter) $100 more expensive than the higher end PS3.
I have the 360 premium, and a wireless adapter. I'll break down for the HD-player only because I'm really into movie collecting. I would have spent $700 getting all these things, but that's three seperate purchases over a year.


Not only is (the Xbox 360) $100 more expensive, but it has a 20 gig hard drive instead of a 60 gig hard drive, and it also lacks a HDMI plug.
Honestly, the HDMI thing is a selling point for me. The TV I bought last year doesn't have a HDMI port on it. I really didn't care for one, as 1080i is great and 720p is arguably just as good, both of which can be sent via DVI or component cables.


And then of course there is the factor that although you can buy the wireless adapter seperately, and the 360 HD-DVD add on seperately, when you add all those pieces together, you kinda have a hodge-podge of stuff connected to the back of your 360, tethered together, and moving your 360 from one room to another becomes a much more daunting task to undertake. Do you take the HD-DVD unit with you? Do you leave it? If you leave it, then you need to unplug the wireless adapter from the back of the HD-DVD unit, so that you can still go wireless with your 360 in the other room. Or, plug the HD-DVD's usb cable into the front of the 360 to avoid that nightmare, but who the heck wants a usb cable from the HD-DVD drive going into the front of the 360? That would look pretty unsightly. So the advantage of having everything nice and neatly packed into the George Foreman grill is a nice advantage I must admit.
Having to move something the size of George Forman's grill is something worth debating. Assuming you had all those parts and wanted to move then, then fine. It's a mess. Just like moving a PC or entertainment center around. Or a high-end stereo system.


Our games can actually use our high def DVD storage medium, your stuck with 9 gig DVD's, and so on and so on.
I know this won't be the last time I bring this up, but so the fuck what? What DVD game shipped on more than one DVD? The PS2 RPGs like Star Ocean and them Gamecube games like Tiger Woods Golf 2005 or Resident Evil. Every stinking game had tons of room on them, which was filled with hours of pre-recorded audio and pre-rendered video. But as the systems got more powerful, you could script thousands of hours of cinemas using in-game engines versus the thousand of megabytes for only 30 minutes of CGI. See how few next-gen games use the in-game cinematics? Even if you want to argue that there is no room on the DVD for HD video, fine. The trade off, so far has been higher textures and more recorded audio tracks.

Even releasing a game on 4 DVDs would be cheaper than 1 of the next-gen discs.

The only thing you'll see utiliing the dozens of gigs will be pre-rendered video. It won't be as jarringly unlike the in-game graphics as Final Fantasy VII or VIII, which is a good thing, yes.

LASTLY

So far, everything about the PS3 is speculation. How will the games actually look and play? PLAY being the big question. You can have the technical superiority *cough*PSP*cough*, but the system with more fun games will win out. Stop saying "our this" and "our that" when you refer to the PS3. It's not "your" system side any more than it is mine. The technology is copyrighted by someone else and the games were created and published by many someone elses. Also, the fact "you all" don't actually possess the system (see how I didn't say "your system" there?) is pretty sad. But one way you will.

[gepeto]

Microsoft has the overall consumer friendly package. The $400 price tag gets you in the game with a nice price point.

I have yet to see the advantage of blue ray in gaming other than disc space. Microsoft has been very shrewed when it comes to hardware. It knew broadband was the way to go in the xbox forget dialup.

I think it also knew its limitations for the next gen war. Clearly there (still is) no defined winner in the next gen standard for dvd.

They knew dvd would be able to cover them even if it takes multiple disc swapping. I never heard of anyone complain of disc swapping in the psx error. Fear effect , final fantasy ,etc.

I think buy the time developers utilize a full blue ray disc the next gen will be upon us. The ps3 could have and should have had a dvd inside.

Instead they chose to push there format on the public win lose or draw and at 600 it is a lose. I want to believe blueray was the way to go because of piracy but it is clearly a format they want to push.

To sonys credit.
they did cause the dvd media to become mainstream. But there price was alot cheaper than the dvd players on the market.

This time different story 600.00 is not cheap.

[Griking]

There is one advantage to Microsoft's $199 HD-DVD player over the Sony one and it's a major one in my eyes.

Microsoft isn't forcing anyone to buy theirs if they have no interest in it and Sony is.

[diskoboy]

There is one advantage to Microsoft's $199 HD-DVD player over the Sony one and it's a major one in my eyes.

Microsoft isn't forcing anyone to buy theirs if they have no interest in it and Sony is.

AMEN.

Plus Peter Jackson's King Kong will be included at purchase. Even though I'm not a fan, packing in a movie definately helps.....

[business]

There is one advantage to Microsoft's $199 HD-DVD player over the Sony one and it's a major one in my eyes.

Microsoft isn't forcing anyone to buy theirs if they have no interest in it and Sony is.

AMEN.

Plus Peter Jackson's King Kong will be included at purchase. Even though I'm not a fan, packing in a movie definitely helps.....

They are also packing in the universal media remote too!

[grimlock]

There is one advantage to Microsoft's $199 HD-DVD player over the Sony one and it's a major one in my eyes.

Microsoft isn't forcing anyone to buy theirs if they have no interest in it and Sony is.

Actually, 2.

You can also use it for your PC

[Anthony1]

I just wanted to comment real quick on the Wi-Fi. For the first month I had my Xbox 360, I was using a wired setup, and then I got the 360 Wireless adapter when Kmart made a pricing blunder and was selling the wireless adapter for $50. I've been using wireless ever since, and I've never had any problems at all. I've played just about everything online, and I haven't had any issues with drop outs or lag that was specifically related to me using wireless.



Also, I did say:

"Of course, all of this only matters to gamers that would like to use wi-fi and also have an interest in a next-gen High Def DVD movie format. For those that have no interest in Wi-Fi or High Def movies, this comparison is meaningless"


So for alot of you guys that either don't have any interest in Wi-Fi, or any interest in watching High Def movies of course this wouldn't matter at all to you.


Somebody mentioned that Blu-Ray absolutely sucks right now. I totally agree with that. HD-DVD blows it away. But, there is a reason why HD-DVD blows it away. The current crop of Blu Ray movies have been using MPEG2 as the codec, while HD-DVD has been using VC-1. VC-1 is dramatically superior to MPEG2, so that is why HD-DVD looks so much better right now. Also the Blu Ray movies have been single layer, which I think is 25 GB, and the HD-DVD movies have been dual layer, which is 30 GB. Once Blu Ray starts using the 50 gig disks, and switches to VC-1, the Blu Ray movies will start looking just as good as HD-DVD if not better. With the extra 20 gigs of storage, the Blu Ray movies won't have to use as much compression. Supposedly the 50 gig VC-1 Blu Ray movies are going to be arriving later this year. Once that happens, then it's all about Studio support and marketing. I would love to see Blu Ray die a quick and painful death, but unfortunately Fox and Disney aren't going to let that happen. It's going to be a bloody and brutal war. x_x

[Sothy]

If you love Sony So much why dont you marry them?!?!

[jajaja]

The question is, when will the hd-dvd exclusive games come. Then you are "forced" to buy the addon. Its not unlikely. Like you have to buy the mics to play the Singstar games for PS2, the EyeToy camera to play those games and for N64 you have to buy an expansion PAK to play DK64 and ZMM.

[Emuaust]

Listen i have been saying this for months and the fact is that
you guys in the US are lucky in australia the prices look like this(The HD-DVD addon price is the rumoured price here!)

Premium 360 pack $650AUD
Wireless Adapter $170AUD
HD-DVD Addon $350AUD
Total: $1170AUD

Premium PS3 $999.95

Now the thing is the PS3 has 60gig instead of the 360's 20gig
and has much superior backwards compatibility with all of the
360 features like a next gen movie format, HDMI and a WIFI
connection all in one console, I dont care if I sound like a whiny
Sony fanboy but as a Retailer I have to weigh up the pros and
cons of both systems and to me the general public will be opting
for the PS3, I personaly love Xbox Live and my 360 but meh
they need to remedy the storage space issue before they worry
about the HD-DVD addon, Seems like a stupid knee jerk reaction to me.


The flipside I do See is that if MS can drop there price of there
console I think the Wii is screwed outside of the US and JAP,
I mean the Wii retails for $399 here in australia lacks Hi-Def,
Movie Playback and also requires you to fork out more money to
buy another controller to use the VC, something nintendo
are trying to push as a reaon to own there unit.

The 360 core retails for $499 in aus, if they can make that
$399 then all of a sudden big retail giants will push the 360
over the Wii for the simple fact that they will also try and push
a new Hi-Def TV into there purchase as more money for them,
what im trying to say if the Core 360 and Wii are the same price,
Id have to choose the 360 as a better purchase, it is in a way
what the unimformed public will percieve as next gen.


Very Interesting 12 months in gaming coming up, it may, just may
turn out o be a carbon replica of this generation with the 360
maybe getting a bit bigger share of Sony's Dominance with
Nintendo trailing behind once again.

[Andred]

The question is, when will the hd-dvd exclusive games come. Then you are "forced" to buy the addon. Its not unlikely. Like you have to buy the mics to play the Singstar games for PS2, the EyeToy camera to play those games and for N64 you have to buy an expansion PAK to play DK64 and ZMM.

Actually, I don't think the consumer would be "forced" to buy any addons. Addons just don't work because no one can safely develop content that takes advantage of them. The games that do use those addons are VERY few and far between. Sure, if you want to play the handful of games that use a mic or EyeToy then you're "forced" to buy the addon but not many people will do that.

(Please don't say "What about Guitar Hero?". That is a huge exception to this "rule" and the majority of PS2 owners still do not have the required guitar controller.)



Listen i have been saying this for months and the fact is that
you guys in the US are lucky in australia the prices look like this(The HD-DVD addon price is the rumoured price here!)

Premium 360 pack $650AUD
Wireless Adapter $170AUD
HD-DVD Addon $350AUD
Total: $1170AUD

Premium PS3 $999.95

Now the thing is the PS3 has 60gig instead of the 360's 20gig
and has much superior backwards compatibility with all of the
360 features like a next gen movie format, HDMI and a WIFI
connection all in one console, I dont care if I sound like a whiny
Sony fanboy but as a Retailer I have to weigh up the pros and
cons of both systems and to me the general public will be opting
for the PS3, I personaly love Xbox Live and my 360 but meh
they need to remedy the storage space issue before they worry
about the HD-DVD addon, Seems like a stupid knee jerk reaction to me.


The flipside I do See is that if MS can drop there price of there
console I think the Wii is screwed outside of the US and JAP,
I mean the Wii retails for $399 here in australia lacks Hi-Def,
Movie Playback and also requires you to fork out more money to
buy another controller to use the VC, something nintendo
are trying to push as a reaon to own there unit.

The 360 core retails for $499 in aus, if they can make that
$399 then all of a sudden big retail giants will push the 360
over the Wii for the simple fact that they will also try and push
a new Hi-Def TV into there purchase as more money for them,
what im trying to say if the Core 360 and Wii are the same price,
Id have to choose the 360 as a better purchase, it is in a way
what the unimformed public will percieve as next gen.


Very Interesting 12 months in gaming coming up, it may, just may
turn out o be a carbon replica of this generation with the 360
maybe getting a bit bigger share of Sony's Dominance with
Nintendo trailing behind once again.

If the Wii and 360 are the same price I guess it really comes down to what kind of person is shopping for a console.

If a hardcore gamer walks into a store and sees that they are the same price I would agree, they'll probably pick up the 360. If a much more casual gamer walks into that same store, they'll probably walk out with a Wii. That's what Nintendo is shooting for. They're still going to cater somewhat to the hardcore but they're much more concerned with expanding the gamer base. I like it.

Also, I don't think Nintendo (and the rest of the gaming industry) gives two dime-sized loafs about the market outside of the North America and Japan. They know where the majority of their sales come from each generation. I don't want people to think that I have something against other countries. I truly don't. But the markets in Australia or Europe are just much smaller than the ones in North America and Japan.

I do agree though, it's definitely going to be an interesting year in gaming!

[jajaja]

Sure, if you want to play the handful of games that use a mic or EyeToy then you're "forced" to buy the addon but not many people will do that.

(Please don't say "What about Guitar Hero?". That is a huge exception to this "rule" and the majority of PS2 owners still do not have the required guitar controller.)

Actually, alot of people do. Just check Singstar, incredible popular. How many Singstar games are out now, 8-10 (also counting the region releases) ? So if a GREAT game gets released on HD-DVD only many will buy it for sure.

Guitar Hero does not require the guitar to play. Same with Dance Dance Revolution where you dont need the dancemath to use it. Both these games can be played with the controller.

[Andred]

Sure, if you want to play the handful of games that use a mic or EyeToy then you're "forced" to buy the addon but not many people will do that.

(Please don't say "What about Guitar Hero?". That is a huge exception to this "rule" and the majority of PS2 owners still do not have the required guitar controller.)

Actually, alot of people do. Just check Singstar, incredible popular. How many Singstar games are out now, 8-10 (also counting the region releases) ? So if a GREAT game gets released on HD-DVD only many will buy it for sure.

Guitar Hero does not require the guitar to play. Same with Dance Dance Revolution where you dont need the dancemath to use it. Both these games can be played with the controller.

8-10?? There are over 1000 games for the PS2! That's roughly 1 percent of the games. What percentage of Wii games will ultimately take advantage of the Wii-motes "next generation" functions? I'd venture to guess the number is going to be above 90 percent. The reason? Gauranteed base market. That's one of the main factors that these companies use to make their decisions. They only reduce their possible return by limiting their market to those customers that happen to have or are willing to buy the optional addon hardware. No profit-minded company is going to do that. And almost all of them are in it for the money!

[Andred]

I read my previous message again after posting it and it kinda makes me come across as a prick. I really don't want anyone to take things personally though. I just love a good debate! Game On!

[Anthony1]

If you love Sony So much why dont you marry them?!?!



I guess you didn't read this from the original post:


"deep down inside, I'm kinda rooting for Sony to get their ass handed to them. But wait, you just said that you weren't a fanboy, but you are actively rooting against Sony? Well, yeah, I honestly don't consider myself a fanboy, but I'm kinda rooting against Sony because they have been so damn arrogant over the years, thinking they own this industry and they can do no wrong. They've kinda been pissing me off. I honestly wouldn't mind seeing them crash and burn. Anywho, I just wanted to mention that before I get into my take on this, because I don't want people to get the mis-informed idea that I'm secretly a Sony fanboy or something. "

[Anthony1]

The question is, when will the hd-dvd exclusive games come. Then you are "forced" to buy the addon. Its not unlikely. Like you have to buy the mics to play the Singstar games for PS2, the EyeToy camera to play those games and for N64 you have to buy an expansion PAK to play DK64 and ZMM.


I only see one scenario in which there would actually be a 360 game that is put on a HD-DVD disk. Let's say in a few years, we have some Xbox 360 games that actually span a few DVD's. Kinda like some of the RPG's on the PS1. There could possibly be a few 360 games that use 4 DVD's or something like that. I could potentially see them putting that game on one HD-DVD disc, and having that be an option as well. Other than that, I honestly don't think you will see the HD-DVD drive used for games whatsoever. Microsoft is well aware of the mistakes that Sega made with the Sega CD and 32X, in terms of splintering their user base. It's just not a very good idea. It's not worth the benefit. Especially with the compression routines that will be developed over time. Better and better compression routines will be developed, allowing more content to fit on a regular dual layer DVD.

[jajaja]

8-10?? There are over 1000 games for the PS2! That's roughly 1 percent of the games.

I know, but i said Singstar games hehe. It doesnt matter how big presentage of the total games this is, but how many that buys it. I wonder how many that acutally bought the Singstar mics and games, im sure its millions since its damn popular, hence all the Singstar games. To play these you must have the nessessary hardware (the mic) or else you cant play the games, ergo, "forced" to buy it.


Anthony1: I agree that you wont see alot of games for HD-DVD, but its not unlikely that you will see a few. If the HD-DVD addon sells bad i wouldnt be suprised if they make a game only for it to boost sales.

[hezeuschrist]

The number of games you'll see for the X360 HD-DVD addon: Zero.

And I garantee this.

Why? Because there is NO BENEFIT to putting the game on an HD-DVD, vs. 3 DVDs. What could the devs possibly benefit from doing this? As mentioned before, it castrates their potential audience to a retarded degree, because even though these next two systems preach the "HD Era" crap, HD penetration is still very, very low, so at best you're limiting your target audience to everyone with the system with an HDTV, and then further limiting it to everyone with the addon.

This isn't like the SegaCD or the 32x. There were physical performance gains to be had with both of those systems. Disc space is not a physical performance gain.

There is simply not one reason to put games on the HD-DVD disc.

[jajaja]

Because there is NO BENEFIT to putting the game on an HD-DVD.

Sure there is. If a great game only gets released on HD-DVD people must buy it to play, thats the whole idea :) If it will happend is just speculations.

[business]

Because there is NO BENEFIT to putting the game on an HD-DVD.

Sure there is. If a great game only gets released on HD-DVD people must buy it to play, thats the whole idea :) If it will happend is just speculations.

I disagree. I really doubt most people are willing to spend an extra $200 to play x game. This would cut the developers profits way too much.

Let's say Halo 3 is only released on HD-DVD. I know there are the hardcore players out there that would spend an extra $200 to play it. But do you really think most of the casual gamers (a majority of Halo fans) will pay that extra cost? Absolutely not.

[Anthony1]

There is simply not one reason to put games on the HD-DVD disc.



I think that's a little too harsh. I will agree that there isn't a reason to have a game "EXCLUSIVELY" on a HD-DVD disk, but saying there is no reason whatsoever is a little premature. In the Playstation era, there were certain games that spanned multiple CD's. I think there were a few games that were on 4 or 5 disks. Well, I could easily forsee a Xbox 360 game far into the future that would be available in two versions. The regular version would come on 4 or 5 DVD's or whatever, and a HD-DVD version would be on a single disk. But the game wouldn't be any different. It would just be for the convienence factor of not having to keep putting different disks in. That would be the only reason.


The chances of Microsoft releasing an exclusive 360 game only on HD-DVD is pretty much non existant.. But if there are games that span 3 or more DVD's, I could see a special HD-DVD version also being available as well. Again, the only difference would be that you wouldn't have to screw around with multiple disks. This way you are just giving the add-on owners an extra incentive to think about that game, but you aren't screwing the overall Xbox 360 fanbase by making some exclusive HD-DVD only game. Going down that road would lead to dissaster.


Having said all of that, I don't think we will see any 360 games that span multiple DVD's for a few years at least, so I don't think this will even become an issue for debate for a long, long time.

[jajaja]

Because there is NO BENEFIT to putting the game on an HD-DVD.

Sure there is. If a great game only gets released on HD-DVD people must buy it to play, thats the whole idea :) If it will happend is just speculations.

I disagree. I really doubt most people are willing to spend an extra $200 to play x game. This would cut the developers profits way too much.

Let's say Halo 3 is only released on HD-DVD. I know there are the hardcore players out there that would spend an extra $200 to play it. But do you really think most of the casual gamers (a majority of Halo fans) will pay that extra cost? Absolutely not.

If it happends it will be far from now. As you say, no1 will pay $250 to play 1 game, MS know that too. Time will tell.

[jajaja]

$250 = HD-DVD + the game :)

[Garry Silljo]

If you love Sony So much why dont you marry them?!?!



I guess you didn't read this from the original post:


"deep down inside, I'm kinda rooting for Sony to get their ass handed to them. But wait, you just said that you weren't a fanboy, but you are actively rooting against Sony? Well, yeah, I honestly don't consider myself a fanboy, but I'm kinda rooting against Sony because they have been so damn arrogant over the years, thinking they own this industry and they can do no wrong. They've kinda been pissing me off. I honestly wouldn't mind seeing them crash and burn. Anywho, I just wanted to mention that before I get into my take on this, because I don't want people to get the mis-informed idea that I'm secretly a Sony fanboy or something. "

He was kidding. Get over yourself.

[business]

If you love Sony So much why dont you marry them?!?!



I guess you didn't read this from the original post:


"deep down inside, I'm kinda rooting for Sony to get their ass handed to them. But wait, you just said that you weren't a fanboy, but you are actively rooting against Sony? Well, yeah, I honestly don't consider myself a fanboy, but I'm kinda rooting against Sony because they have been so damn arrogant over the years, thinking they own this industry and they can do no wrong. They've kinda been pissing me off. I honestly wouldn't mind seeing them crash and burn. Anywho, I just wanted to mention that before I get into my take on this, because I don't want people to get the mis-informed idea that I'm secretly a Sony fanboy or something. "

He was kidding. Get over yourself.

Please, for fucks sake, let's not make this into another 'we hate anthony' thread.

[Garry Silljo]

If you love Sony So much why dont you marry them?!?!



I guess you didn't read this from the original post:


"deep down inside, I'm kinda rooting for Sony to get their ass handed to them. But wait, you just said that you weren't a fanboy, but you are actively rooting against Sony? Well, yeah, I honestly don't consider myself a fanboy, but I'm kinda rooting against Sony because they have been so damn arrogant over the years, thinking they own this industry and they can do no wrong. They've kinda been pissing me off. I honestly wouldn't mind seeing them crash and burn. Anywho, I just wanted to mention that before I get into my take on this, because I don't want people to get the mis-informed idea that I'm secretly a Sony fanboy or something. "

He was kidding. Get over yourself.

Please, for fucks sake, let's not make this into another 'we hate anthony' thread.

I just wanted him to take his shield down for a second to keep the flames down. Somebody should be able to tell a joke without being accused of not being able to pay attention/read/understand etc. ... There's no way he couldn't of been able to tell this was in jest, after all, it was Sothy. Sothy is the very defintion of refined sarcasm.

[Imstarryeyed]

In reference to the statement that no one would pay $200 for an add on? I paid $200 for Steel Batallions and I loved that purchase. It turns out that Capcom had to make at least 2 runs of it as it sold out real well too.

I do however agree that game developers (I used to work for IGN) often do not like to make games for add ons for the same reasons some of you folks outlined. It is getting harder for them to turn a profit on the crowded market so limiting their potential userbase even more is a lesser road traveled.

[Joker T]

The HD-DVD drive is quite appealing to me, I like that MS isn't forcing a new format on gamers but giving an affordable option.

[kai123]

If a game is released on multiple discs for the 360 everytime you change a disc you would be forced back to the dashboard. It doesn't do like the psx and just sit there. I like having one disc more, just no hassle and doesn't pull you out of the game. Would you want to switch discs while watching a dvd? I know I wouldn't like it at all.

[slip81]

Would you want to switch discs while watching a dvd? I know I wouldn't like it at all.

I had to quite often before they came out with DL DVD's, it didn't bother me much.

[kai123]

Would you want to switch discs while watching a dvd? I know I wouldn't like it at all.

I had to quite often before they came out with DL DVD's, it didn't bother me much.

I had no idea they even released any like that. What movies did they release like that? I just hate the idea of being really into something then to stop over something trivial. Different strokes for different folks. :)

[LAGO]

Would you want to switch discs while watching a dvd? I know I wouldn't like it at all.

I had to quite often before they came out with DL DVD's, it didn't bother me much.

I had no idea they even released any like that. What movies did they release like that? I just hate the idea of being really into something then to stop over something trivial. Different strokes for different folks. :)

Gladiator was one if I am not mistaken.

[Cryomancer]

Laserdiscs did it too. Hell, some LD movies are 2 discs, 2 sides each. It also worked for records.

[Dangerboy]

If words were cut trees we'd have raped the planet dry by now with nothing but hot air to replace the waste.

It doesn't matter.

It seriously doesn't matter. The problem here is that it doesn't matter how clear a movie is if the movie still sucks ass. And most movies out lately I wouldn't pay $6 for, much less $24.99 - 29.99

Between consoles and real players, I have 4 DVD players sitting within arm's reach. One was free, the rest came as bonus items to the GAME SYSTEM I bought.

The trick here is that it's a GAME SYSTEM. I'm pleased that Microsoft kept it a DVD player, and I'm damn pleased that Nintendo took it out of the Wii. The HD DVD add-on for the 360 is brilliant. Why? Because it's a CHOICE.

$199.99 for games, accessories, food, clothing, rent, and HD-DVD at half price...or... forced to spend on a media format that god help me, actually has an old school sandclock loading screen (proven, I was watching the $1,000 Blue Ray player have to load a freaking movie at Best Buy)

Sony isn't giving the choice, but it doesn't matter since the system is nowhere on my radar. Not after seeing through all the smoke and mirrors and lies via Sony and EA...some of which are a whole separate rant entirely.

My $600 is going to a Wii and 6 games with 2nd remote, and I'll eventually get a 360, when the price drops significantly or there's a sweet bundle.

[Push Upstairs]

There were some early DVD's that were "flippers"...meaning half of the movie was on one side and the other half was on the other side (ala laserdiscs) and you had to eject the disc and "flip" it over to watch the whole movie.

I believe today there are some movies that are spread out over a few discs simply because the movie is either too long or there are a bunch of extras that make it impossible to store the movie on a single disc at a decent bitrate.

I believe some of the "Lord of the Rings" directors cuts and "Pearl Harbor" are more recent examples of this.

[business]

$199.99 for games, accessories, food, clothing, rent, and HD-DVD at half price...or... forced to spend on a media format that god help me, actually has an old school sandclock loading screen (proven, I was watching the $1,000 Blue Ray player have to load a freaking movie at Best Buy)

This is exactly how I feel. Microsoft is giving us a choice with this one. They have already stated that they have no plans to create HD-DVD games. So is it forcing you to buy if you already own a 360? No. It's giving you an option to watch High Def movies with your 360 if you so desire.

Unlike Sony who is trying to pimp their ps3 by pushing a whole new format.

http://www.nightmarefactory.com/GC7290.jpg

Sony---^

[jajaja]

Many seems to forget that the BR player in PS3 isnt for movies only. Games for PS3 will also be on BR discs, i cant imagine how to play these without a BR player hehe. Its sorta like complaining about the DS using its own format and that you cant choose.

[Daria]

Many seems to forget that the BR player in PS3 isnt for movies only. Games for PS3 will also be on BR discs, i cant imagine how to play these without a BR player hehe. Its sorta like complaining about the DS using its own format and that you cant choose.

Except the DS cards weren't astronomically expensive.

[Dangerboy]

Games for PS3 will also be on BR discs, i cant imagine how to play these without a BR player hehe. Its sorta like complaining about the DS using its own format and that you cant choose.

The difference here is that the DS is pretty much instant access, and proven technology. Though I forgot to put it in perspective in my original post, another reason for my distaste of the Blue Ray is the loading time (hence the Best Buy comment).

EA, most notorius for load times that are still roughly the same damn length every year, like the newly released NBA Live 07 on the 360 this past week. Having made the simplest selections (play game, choose team, start), the 360 version took forever to load. Granted, they hide this issue behind a mini-game of shooting hoops, but it's annoying as heck. If a BR-DVD has to throw up a load screen for a DVD menu, what is it going to have you do while you stream an entire game level full of high resolution textures and such? Does anyone remember the original batch of PS2 load times?

There's also the small grating issue of the PS3 being a feeder slot...I get at least 1 ps2 a month at the store where the drive has died and we need to pry off the door and tug the tray out to retrieve the customer's game. What happens when your $60+ game is now trapped inside the feeder slot of a $600 system?

There's just too many questions about the system that leave me with either no answers or no good ones. I adore my PSone, but Sony just hasn't won me over with the PS3, much less some of their game choices.

[SamuraiSmurfette]

So what will Microsoft's answer to all this be? I've got two words.

Price


DROP


Um...perhaps you didn't read my comment on the last rant you made. MS is NOT doing a price drop, rather they will be bundling Ghost Recon/live arcade unplugged with it. They'd rather add value to the consumer, then lose more money (like Sony's PSP strategy) However, this IS NOT a rumour. It's fact. wait and see for yourself...

[itobandito]

didn't read the whole post so some one may of said this. PC games have been doing this for a while. Having a CD-Rom Version of a game and a DVD-Rom version of the game. No extra cost. Occasionally the DVD version may have some extras. Its all convienance. I highly doubt they will make any game exlcusive to HD-DVD discs. I wouldn't be suprised if the HD-DVD version of a game that comes out in the future looks better than the DVD Rom version. With HD-DVD you have to do less compression of textures and what not. I heard that this is why the PS3 version of Oblivion will look better. The bigger the space on a disc the less compression has to be done.

[jajaja]

Games for PS3 will also be on BR discs, i cant imagine how to play these without a BR player hehe. Its sorta like complaining about the DS using its own format and that you cant choose.

The difference here is that the DS is pretty much instant access, and proven technology.

True, but the discussion was about choosing. You cant choose what media u want for any consoles. There are no alternatives.


Except the DS cards weren't astronomically expensive.

Afaik know it isnt more expencive to produce a BR disc than a DVD. The production cost for 1 DVD is less than 10 cents. It cost more to produce a DS card.

[Daria]

Except the DS cards weren't astronomically expensive.

Afaik know it isnt more expencive to produce a BR disc than a DVD. The production cost for 1 DVD is less than 10 cents. It cost more to produce a DS card.

Not the disc. The Hardware.

[jajaja]

Thats because its new tech. A ROM reader is ancient. When it was new it was also very expencive :)

[Anthony1]

Um...perhaps you didn't read my comment on the last rant you made. MS is NOT doing a price drop, rather they will be bundling Ghost Recon/live arcade unplugged with it. They'd rather add value to the consumer, then lose more money (like Sony's PSP strategy) However, this IS NOT a rumour. It's fact. wait and see for yourself...


Oh, I see. How long have you been working at Microsoft? Wow, it's cool that we have an actual Xbox employee on these boards.

[hezeuschrist]

There is simply not one reason to put games on the HD-DVD disc.



I think that's a little too harsh. I will agree that there isn't a reason to have a game "EXCLUSIVELY" on a HD-DVD disk, but saying there is no reason whatsoever is a little premature. In the Playstation era, there were certain games that spanned multiple CD's. I think there were a few games that were on 4 or 5 disks. Well, I could easily forsee a Xbox 360 game far into the future that would be available in two versions. The regular version would come on 4 or 5 DVD's or whatever, and a HD-DVD version would be on a single disk. But the game wouldn't be any different. It would just be for the convienence factor of not having to keep putting different disks in. That would be the only reason.


The chances of Microsoft releasing an exclusive 360 game only on HD-DVD is pretty much non existant.. But if there are games that span 3 or more DVD's, I could see a special HD-DVD version also being available as well. Again, the only difference would be that you wouldn't have to screw around with multiple disks. This way you are just giving the add-on owners an extra incentive to think about that game, but you aren't screwing the overall Xbox 360 fanbase by making some exclusive HD-DVD only game. Going down that road would lead to dissaster.


Having said all of that, I don't think we will see any 360 games that span multiple DVD's for a few years at least, so I don't think this will even become an issue for debate for a long, long time.

I don't buy it. I understand that PC games have been making that transition from CD to DVD in recent years, but thats a transition that should have happened years ago.

The penetration rates (as I outlined previously) for the HD-DVD unit won't warrant creating anything for use exclusively with the X360 HD-DVD addon. The movies will of course all be useable in any HD-DVD player. If you do create dual releases (DVD/HD-DVD) you have to develop both versions, you have to physically produce both versions, you have to seperately package both versions, and you have to stock both versions worldwide. From an overhead standpoint past the development cycle, it's like creating two games but only aiming one of them at 2% of the userbase.

The one question you need to ask yourself is this, "If they ONLY release the DVD version, will that prohibit anyone from purchasing it?"

The answer is no. As a publisher, why would you bother going that extra mile for essentially nothing? You'll sell the same number of copies if you offer it on one format or two, so creating the second format just adds completely superfluous costs.