Can any of your big strong C64 men give a TRS-80'r some love

[courtesi96]

Real briefly...

When I grew up my parents were going to buy me a computer. Pretty much everything was set for me to get a Commodore 64. However my grandmother who at the time worked at a (now defunct) Chicagoland chain of stores called "Venture" told us that Commodore was going out of business. This of course was around 1985 (and untrue!)

So my parents were spooked about buying me a "dead computer." So instead they bought me a TRS-80 Color Computer 2 w/ 64k. You know what? I was grateful at the time but I never stopped wondering how the C64 experience would have been like.

To add fuel to the fire - I stopped by the Commodore expo show held in Lombard Illinois last weekend. I picked up a copy of "Commodork" and after I was done reading it I am hooked again!

So I was curious to know if some of you could assist me in putting together a "rig" for me to start with? I know emulation is there - but something about it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I know it's probably psychological it just isn't the same....


Computer - I'm set on the C64C. Yeah, it's not the uber "original" but I can't help it. My eyes *love* the C64C. So I could pick this up at a fair simple enough w/ power adapter.

Now come the difficult parts...

First, storage...

What do I envision my activities being on this computer? I'd really like to learn assembly language. I have no set goal in mind like writing a game or creating a demo. Although messing and hacking existing games seems appealing to me. I of course would like to watch demos and play games on it.

First off, I've heard bad things about Commodore floppy drives but these might be my only choice at the moment (more on that later). I heard that these may have to be aligned often? Is there a particular model that is better than the others? Is there a good supplier for floppy disks?

CMD / Jiffy DOS is brought up a lot but the problem is the current owner of the company has a 2 month backlog on almost everything. Is this stuff good? Is it compatible with just about everything I'd use it for?

I've also heard of connecting the C64 to a PC for storage?


Next,

The screen

What monitors are available for the C64? I'd rather not use a television if thats possible.



finally, software books!

any recommendations on really good "intro to 64" and assembly language books?

Is there someone in the United States that is selling Protovision stuff?

How can I get disk images off the Internet and on to C64 floppies?
(I have a feeling a PC is involved and I'd like to keep the PC out of it as much as possible)

Thanks in advance guys!!!!!!!

[Ze_ro]

First off, I've heard bad things about Commodore floppy drives but these might be my only choice at the moment (more on that later). I heard that these may have to be aligned often? Is there a particular model that is better than the others? Is there a good supplier for floppy disks?
Well, you'll pretty much HAVE to get at least one Commodore floppy drive if you ever want to play games on the thing. If you're only going to use it for your own programming, then you might be able to suffice with the connect-to-PC thing (more on that later), but if you don't get a drive, you'll have a hard time later on. Don't even bother with tape drives.

As for models, you're best off getting a standard 1541 or a 1541-II... they're basically the same, although the case style of the '41-II will better match the C64C. The 1571 is a nice drive, but it's extra features are mostly only useful on the C-128. There's also the 1581 which uses 3.5" disks, but you're best off just getting a regular 1541, as they're easy to find, cheap, and they'll do pretty much everything you want to do.

Don't worry about aligning the drive. I have a bunch of 20-year old drives that work just fine and have never needed an alignment. It's also worth pointing out that even if your drive is misaligned, you'll still be able to read any disk that you write with that drive, it'll just make it difficult to share disks between drives. In case you ever need to realign the drive, you'll be able to find instructions how to do it on the net.


CMD / Jiffy DOS is brought up a lot but the problem is the current owner of the company has a 2 month backlog on almost everything. Is this stuff good? Is it compatible with just about everything I'd use it for?
Y'know what, don't even bother with the speedup stuff until you have a working system. Once you've fooled around with it a bit, then you can decide on what expansions you want. If you want a cheaper option, you could just get an Epyx Fastload cartridge... if you find anything that doesn't work with it, you can just pull the cartridge out and try again.

From what I've heard though, Jiffy DOS is quite good.


I've also heard of connecting the C64 to a PC for storage?
Yes, you need to use a piece of software called 64hdd (http://www.64hdd.com/index_en.html), and a cable called an X1541 cable (http://sta.c64.org/xcables.html). I did this for a while myself, using an old 386 as a dedicated 64hdd machine. It worked alright, and the 80MB hard drive I was using was practically a bottomless pit as far as the C64 was concerned. I don't really consider this a good option for playing commercial games though, so you should still have a 1541 in order to use real disks.

Some people have also had trouble getting 64hdd to work at all. I don't remember having much trouble with it personally, but your mileage may vary.


What monitors are available for the C64? I'd rather not use a television if thats possible.
Well, the only outputs you have available to you are RF, composite, and something Commodore referred to as "seperated video"... Seperated video is actually the same thing as S-Video, except using two RCA jacks instead of an S-Video jack. So, if you're willing to build your own cable, you can hook it up to a regular S-Video television, and that'll give you the best picture you can get from it.

If you don't want to muck around building cables, pretty much any Commodore monitor will do the trick, as they all had the seperated chroma/luma jacks on the back (except their much-later VGA monitors). The 1702 (http://www.zimmers.net/cbmpics/mecomp.html) monitor is the classic C64 monitor, although the brown housing won't match the C64C very nicely... if this is a concern, you might want to go for one of the newer monitors like the 1902 or 1084S, although these will be harder to find and more expensive.


any recommendations on really good "intro to 64" and assembly language books?
Actually, the best intro book you'll find is the manual that came with the machine to begin with. Back in the 80's, the companies didn't hide anything from you, so you'll find LOTS of information in there, even stuff like what the pins on the user port are for in case you want to build something to plug in there.

As for assembly, you should know that the C64 doesn't have a built-in assembler, so any book you get will likely be based around it's own assembler program. I have one called "The Second Book of Machine Language (http://www.atariarchives.org/2bml/)", written by Compute. The book is based on using the LADS assembler, the source code of which is actually printed in the back of the book so you can type if in if you have no other option. The assembler works not only on the C64, but on the VIC-20, PET, Atari 8-bit's, Apple II. The whole text of the book is available at that link, so you can decide for yourself if the book is any good. There are lots of other ASM books available too.

The 6502 was an immensely popular processor, so there is PLENTY of information about it available online... not all of it is directed at the C64, but most of it will still apply.


How can I get disk images off the Internet and on to C64 floppies?
(I have a feeling a PC is involved and I'd like to keep the PC out of it as much as possible)
The C64 used an unusual disk format called GCR. Normal PC's can't read this disk format. However, there are two options:
Using the aforementioned X1541 cable, hook a Commodore disk drive up to your PC, and use a program like Star Commander (http://sta.c64.org/sc.html) to read/write to the drive. This is what I use, and it works very well.
Individual Computers (http://www.jschoenfeld.de/) makes a device called the "Catweasel". This is a programmable drive controller which you can install in your computer which can actually handle reading and writing Commodore's GCR format. It's also able to handle many other disk formats in case that interests you.
Sorry, but there's no real option for doing this without a PC being involved.

Hope that helps.

--Zero

[Flack]

To add fuel to the fire - I stopped by the Commodore expo show held in Lombard Illinois last weekend. I picked up a copy of "Commodork" and after I was done reading it I am hooked again!
Yay! I hope you enjoyed it!


So I was curious to know if some of you could assist me in putting together a "rig" for me to start with?
I know Zero already covered the basics, but I might as well throw my two cents in as well.

If you've already got a computer, at a minimum you need a floppy drive, a monitor, and a joystick. I'd also highly recommend a Fastload cartridge of some flavor.

I agree with Zero on the drives -- I'd shoot for a 1541 or a 1571 if you can find one. The 1541 I used at Lombard still had the thrift store price written on it ($4.98), and I think I got it on half price day. Point is, drives are still out there. You'll pay a bit more on eBay than if you do the hunting yourself, but they're still findable. Also, 1571 drives (I have heard) had less alignment problems than the '41 did, so if you find one at a reasonable price, don't steer clear of it. The '81 has some nice features but out of 18,000 C64 games I think 2 supported it (I just made those numbers up, but you get the idea).

For monitors, I find old composite monitors in thrift stores all the time. I just picked up two last weekend, one for $10 and another for $5. The C64 is not stereo, so you'll only need one RCA in for video and one RCA jack for audio.

I can't place your face yet so I'm not sure if you're one of the people who asked about my demo, but what you're asking about (converting D64 images to real disks) is what my computer at my table in Lombard was doing. I use the method Zero described (PC connected to a 1541 with an X1541 cable) but there are other methods.

Feel free to drop me a PM anytime if you have any questions!

[courtesi96]

Thanks for getting me up to speed guys!

I also have a last question about these guys: http://www.nishtek.com/cbits/shop.html

Is C-Bits a reliable shop to purchase from? (I don't have a TON of money but I am a huge fan of "one stop shopping."

Flack: I showed up around 11.30AM - right before lunch. I think you told me that the book I was buying was going to get you enough money for lunch :D

Loved all the crazy stuff you did during the BBS days. I think the craziest thing we ever did was buy a box of douches and filled them up with hershey syrup and left it on the door stop of one of our favorite SysOps around midnight. Little did we know at the time that his mom had a gun! @_@

[Dave Farquhar]

I'll add my 2 cents...

You can use any modern TV with composite inputs as a monitor. A Commodore 1702 would be better, but if you already have a 13-inch TV, that'll work until you find a monitor. Or connect your 64 to a 19-incher for real luxury. :)

Commodore drives had alignment issues mostly because of copy prevention on software back in its heyday. Unless you're using a lot of original software you won't have an issue. The 1541s with the drop-down doors were more susceptible to this problem than the later ones with the latch that turned 90 degrees. The later 1541C and 1541-II that match the 64C's color scheme are less likely to have problems.

In retrospect, the 1541 had problems, but really wasn't as bad as its reputation. By now, chances are the worst '41s made have been in landfills for years.

If you can chase down a 1581 drive (3.5-inch), those were nice. Very nice. I loved mine. I understand they usually cost $100 or more now though, which is what I paid for mine (used) in 1989.

I agree that JiffyDOS was nice, but a fastload cartridge is cheaper and easier to find. The Epyx Fast Load was the first really popular one; later ones like Super Snapshot or Final Cartridge were a little faster but can be harder to find. Fast Load was 1541 only (or 1571 in 1541 mode); the later ones worked with the 1571 and 1581 drives.

[Ze_ro]

The '81 has some nice features but out of 18,000 C64 games I think 2 supported it (I just made those numbers up, but you get the idea).
The '81 is great for playing cracked games though. I'm sure all of Remember (http://www.bitte8bit.de/newremember/)'s releases would work nicely off a 720k disk.

If you're looking for a fast loader, you might also want to look into the Retro Replay (http://www.jschoenfeld.de/products/rreplay_e.htm). It's a great little cartridge with a whole host of nice features. I'm very happy to have one. Most of the new C64 stuff can be bought from GGS-Data (http://www.ggsdata.se/)... it's a Swedish retailler, but I've bought stuff from them before, and I highly recommend them. Note that the prices listed on their site include 20% VAT, which only applies to European sales, so us North American types will actually pay less. A Retro Replay would end up running you about $60, but you'd be hard-pressed to get all of it's features for less than that anywhere else!

--Zero

[Mayhem]

Unlike a number of other European util carts, RR does work okay on NTSC machines... correct? :)

(I can't recall offhand you see heh)

[Ze_ro]

The Retro Replay has two banks of flash memory in it, so you can upload whatever ROM you want into it... There are seperate NTSC and PAL ROM's, so whatever you upload into it is what you get... the hardware is universal. You switch banks via a jumper on the cartridge itself.

My Retro Replay has the CyberpunX Retro Replay (http://rr.c64.org/) ROM in one bank, and the Action Replay 5.0 ROM in the other bank (Both NTSC).

--Zero

[icbrkr]

I think everyone in here's covered the basics. I would go for a 1571 drive if I was grabbing any of them due to the alignment and reliability issue. But in all fairness to the mighty 1541, I've only had 1 give up after 6 years of continous use. The 71 won't head crash and freak you out when it encounters a disk error :)

Zero and I have both had the conversation about 64HDD - I tried many, many times and wasn't ever successful. I use a MMC64 to transfer disk images, or disks written to from my Amiga in 1581 format but I know these aren't typical ways. The x1541 cable works most of the time if you have an old 98 or DOS box lying around. Once my RRNet comes in, I'll grab disk images from the net via TCP bay-bee.

[robotriot]

I'd go for the MMC64 route as well, it's by far the easiest and fastest way to transfer files between the PC and C64.

[Ze_ro]

For those of you with MMC64's... how fast can it write a D64 to disk? Is it actually faster than Star Commander?

--Zero