Holy Grails of Console Game Collecting (blog/article) [Archive]

Nimrodil

10-11-2006, 02:18 PM

Hi!

New here (well, old lurker :) ), first post. Just red this article on the blog Rocket Boy:

http://www.racketboy.com/retro/raregames.htm

Thought it might interest people here. Fun to read, i liked it, but I am not sure about the lists content. Isn�t Mr Boston more "rare" than Mine Storm 2 (Vectrex)? Why not Darius Alpha or/and Ginga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire (PCE) instead of Rondo of Blood etc.

Read and discuss :) Do you folks have any of the listed games?

smork

10-11-2006, 02:41 PM

It's all subjective and their list is pretty reasonable, so it's hard to be critical. I wil criticize, though :)

I think they have in a few cases gotten their prices a bit confused, along with omitting a few notables. For example, if you are going to include non-production games there are 3 alot rarer than Taromaru for the Saturn (Eyeful Home, Heim Waltz, and Delisoba Deluxe). I'd also wager most of the post-system lifecycle games released on the Dreamcast are in the neighborhood of being as rare as Border Down: LE, (Are there more Baldr Force EXEs or even Under Defeat: LE?), but Border Down is in high demand for its gameplay.

I have no numbers to back it up, but I don't think Metal Slug AES is *that* rare, but is more a victim of the "popular AES game" syndrome (I know more than one person who owns one). I also saw one of those Bangai-O Prize Editions this summer going for around $350, and it wasn't moving at that price as it sat in that shop at least a month (that I saw). Also VB Virtual Bowling and SD Gundam Dimension War can be had for alot closer to $500 than $1000+. And if mentioning import games, why not mention the non-Rebirth edition of Judgement Silversword or Dicing Knight for the WonderSwan? Both are really, really hard to get and $$$$$.

But I do think it's a pretty good list!

50TBRD

10-11-2006, 02:48 PM

First of all, its hard to be an expert at every console. The list seems to contain a lot of mainstream consoles and I wonder if there aren't games for the less popular systems that had had fewer production numbers than whats on there.

Now on to the Vectrex. From what I understand from everthing that I've ever read, being a Vecenthusiasts, Mr Boston is more rare than Minestorm II. There's not a lot of production numbers of any of the Vectrex games so its hard to know but there are supposedly only 2 known copies of Mr Boston out there. In the five years or so that I have been watching Vectrex items on Ebay I have seen a total of one Minestorm cart and a total of zero Mr Boston carts and don't think that the couple know copies are going to be sold off anytime soon. At Buy It Now of 2000USD Minestorm didn't sell. I can only imagine how much Mr Boston would go for.

Here's some links to the VecDB with articles on them.

Minestorm II (http://vgdb.vectrex.com/vec.pl?vgdbcode=VGDB065)

Mr Boston (http://vgdb.vectrex.com/vec.pl?vgdbcode=VGDB070)

And here's a link to the last auction for Minestorm II.

Minestorm auction (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fse arch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle%3D8284062208%26fvi %3D1&item=8284062208&rd=1)

Nimrodil

10-11-2006, 05:07 PM

Nimrodil

10-11-2006, 05:15 PM

Ah, sorry, posted wrong (my text disappeared when I tried to log in again. :embarrassed: .., and it seems not work to edit?)

However, I make it short. Little information about Mr Boston that maybe is interesting for you; I know that the only known (as far as I know, this post sounds silly) Mr Boston was sold for 4200 USD now in august. Think there is one more boxed, but without overlay. Don�t think my "hole" collection is worth so much money :)

50TBRD

10-11-2006, 05:22 PM

Was that on ebay? If so, do you have the auction number?

Nimrodil

10-11-2006, 05:30 PM

It's all subjective and their list is pretty reasonable, so it's hard to be critical. I wil criticize, though :)

/.../

I think they have in a few cases gotten their prices a bit confused, along with omitting a few notables. For example, if you are going to include non-production games there are 3 alot rarer than Taromaru for the Saturn (Eyeful Home, Heim Waltz, and Delisoba Deluxe). I'd also wager most of the post-system lifecycle games released on the Dreamcast are in the neighborhood of being as rare as Border Down: LE, (Are there more Baldr Force EXEs or even Under Defeat: LE?), but Border Down is in high demand for its gameplay.

/.../

But I do think it's a pretty good list!

Yea, I agree. And even if it�s impossible to do lists like this, do most interesting is the discussions when people criticize them :) Always a lot of nice knowledge that comes up.

Do you know who impossible it is to find the three saturn games you mentioned (Eyeful Home, Heim Waltz, and Delisoba Deluxe)? Suppose they not shows up on Ebay? Yahoo Japan maybe? Or just in game shops in Japan? Think I will google around and see what i find :-P

Border Down LE is "funny". I bought two (new/sealed) from http://www.ncsx.com/ just a year ago (well, 18 months maybe) for just 79 USD each and know it�s alreaddy so expencive. Regret I sold one to a friend at once @_@ But I suppose a lot of people buy an extra copy of for instance Under Defeat LE and hope it will raise in the same way (and maybe that means it will not?)

Sweater Fish Deluxe

10-11-2006, 05:35 PM

You guys have to keep in mind that this list is not meant to be anything like a list of the rarest games. It's the most desirable rare games. This whole "holy grail" concept has a lot more psychology in it than it does raw production numbers. This is also why the list more focused on the popular and legendary systems; because those are the ones that have more interest, more collectors and therefore more holy grails.

Seems an okay list. I don't know how "holy grail" I consider the U.S. SMS version of Sonic and the Bangaioh Prize Edition, but maybe there's lots of people out there who do think that that kind of release is the bee's knees and I just don't really know about them.

....word is bondage...

Nimrodil

10-11-2006, 05:38 PM

Was that on ebay? If so, do you have the auction number?

No, outside Ebay. Think many of this kind of monster expencive games sells outside Ebay (don�t really understand why). But I know the buyer (not personally, but we visit the same forum). He has a great collection (all 12 japanese bandai games etc).

Nimrodil

10-11-2006, 05:52 PM

roushimsx

10-11-2006, 06:04 PM

That was a pretty fun read. I had no idea about the Bangai-O Prize Edition...and I doubt I'll ever add it to my collection. I like Bangai-O a lot, but not that much :)

My only complaint is that the print run on Panzer Dragoon Saga is off by about 20,000 copies :( (6k first print run and 2 12k print runs later), and that's a very small and very minor complaint :)

Baldr Force EXE probably won't ever wind up being too high in demand despite the print run because it was such an awful game. Border Down LE will always trump it (2k copies printed total; the normal edition had an initial run of 3k and a second run of 5k). No idea what the print runs were like for Under Defeat... but gosh darn was Border Down awesome. I don't much care for horizontal shmups, but Border Down sucked me in something fierce :)

vintagegamecrazy

10-12-2006, 06:46 PM

I would've added tne Blockbuster cart for Genesis, so many people need that to officially call their collection complete. One other game I may have added even though it ain't on too mainstream of a system is Pachinko for the SG1000. The console is fairly mainstream in other countries but no one knows about it in the states, Pachinko has sold for over $2500 before.

TurboGenesis

10-14-2006, 12:09 PM

Might I suggest a game for this list?

Elemental Gearbolt - Assassins case.

This package was handed out to several attendants at E3 and a couple others were prizes in the Elemental Gearbolt contest. There is a member here who has this and can provide pictures and info on this super rare item. I am currently looking for one as it is really the only thing I need to complete my Working Designs collection.

Jumpman Jr.

10-14-2006, 12:15 PM

Although I don't know if I particularily agree with all of those on that list, I happen to have 7 of them 8-).

DreamTR

10-16-2006, 01:57 AM

I've got 17 out of the 20 games on that list...

I don't agree with SOnic The Hedgehog because you are paying for a UPC Sticker. The PAL game sent here is just that, a leftover with a sticker. Any production house can make that sticker. If I bought 20 PAL copies of that game, and put the exact sticker on the back, no one could tell the difference, so to me, that's a silly game to be on the list.

Kizuna Encounter I agree with being crazy rare, BUT again, this is the case of someone paying for an insert and a manual. The game is exactly the same as the Japanese version when you place it in your Neo Geo. This is not the same thing as a variant with a 60 pin- 72 pin NES/Famicom game with Licensed by Nintendo of America at the title screen, so that's another one that I don't understand the value for.

Air Raid is a bootleg from what I have seen. That is a waste of time and money. The list is not meant to the be the "rarest" games, but the most wanted high value games these days it seems. I do not understand why Bangai-O's contest game in Japan would make that list. If the Blockbuster Genesis cart is not on that list, then Bangai should definitely not be on there as well.

dojosky

10-16-2006, 06:50 AM

I agree with what Jason says !!! i own a few here but there is the reason why i will never pay $500 or trade rare games for a stadium events cartridge am fine with the world track meet cartridge LOL....

rbudrick

10-16-2006, 10:15 AM

He forgot to mention that I proved the existence of at least four more grey NWCs than the 90 originally known (and I own one of those 4, lol), proving beyond 15 years of speculation that there were more than 90 made.

-Rob

jajaja

10-16-2006, 10:37 AM

I saw this site just a few days ago actually :) They say that 2000 copies of SE USA is made, is this true? I also find it wierd that they dont list the Rockman 4 gold cart (only 8 excist) when they mention the Bangai-O: Prize Edition.

Fighter17

10-16-2006, 11:56 AM

Thank god Dracula X and Radiant Silvergun didn't made it to the list because these two games are not RARE at all! Just the demand for the games are so high that only the people who are able to afford it can buy it.

The list was good, but they could add in one game on the list:

Sega Megadrive Tetris: While they were plently of bootleg Tetris copies out there, they were about 5-10 offical pressings of Megadrive Tetris ever made. Adol in the fourm claims to own one of the offical pressings.

roushimsx

10-16-2006, 12:21 PM

Thank god Dracula X and Radiant Silvergun didn't made it to the list because these two games are not RARE at all! Just the demand for the games are so high that only the people who are able to afford it can buy it.

I really wish Dracula X would get the Castlevania Chronicles treatment and get ported to a modern platfrom with a few extras. It was a glorious day when I no longer had to fire up an X68k emulator to play the game and when suddenly everyone else could finally give it a whirl. It give me a warm and fuzzy if the same would happen to Dracula X :(

..and I'll never understand the high demand for the Saturn port of Nocturne in the Moonlight. What a disappointingly rushed and inferior port :(

Fighter17

10-16-2006, 01:06 PM

I really wish Dracula X would get the Castlevania Chronicles treatment and get ported to a modern platfrom with a few extras. It was a glorious day when I no longer had to fire up an X68k emulator to play the game and when suddenly everyone else could finally give it a whirl. It give me a warm and fuzzy if the same would happen to Dracula X :(

..and I'll never understand the high demand for the Saturn port of Nocturne in the Moonlight. What a disappointingly rushed and inferior port :(

People liked those extras in the Saturn version. x_x

Adol

10-16-2006, 02:18 PM

That list is useless...Why mentionning something as "common" as NWC Grey Championship cart (300 or so produced) and not Rockman 4 Gold carts (8 produced)?
Why speaking of NWC Gold Championships carts (26 produced?) and not Nekketsu Dodgeball Tournament SFC Cart, Gradius 2 Sample for PC Engine SCD..?

If they include "not for sale/prize games",then there is way rarer (i didn't say more expensive,but rarer) games than those ones.

and by the way, it is SO USA/Canada oriented :)

Adol

10-16-2006, 02:19 PM

That list is useless...Why mentionning something as "common" as NWC Grey Championship cart (300 or so produced) and not Power League Gold Hucard (200 copies)?

Why speaking of NWC Gold Championships carts (26 produced?) and not Rockman 4 Gold carts (8 produced), or Nekketsu Dodgeball Tournament SFC Cart, Gradius 2 Sample for PC Engine SCD..?

If they include "not for sale/prize games",then there is way rarer games than those ones.

And by the way, it is SO USA/Canada oriented :)

Adol

10-16-2006, 02:22 PM

Just read my second post,i corrected it..this forum needs an edit option! :)

Aswald

10-16-2006, 02:46 PM

I'm surprised that Lord of the Dungeon for the ColecoVision wasn't on the list. Copies do now exist, but there had to be at least one original prototype for the copies to have been made.

Mayhem

10-16-2006, 02:47 PM

It's not just about rarity, it's also about desirability. And I don't think you can argue that for NES collectors (and I bet there's a load more of them out there than PC Engine) that the Championship cartridges are highly sought after.

Though I agree, it's a US article so it's going to be somewhat US centric. They do have some imports in there however.

DreamTR

10-16-2006, 03:22 PM

That list is not ENTIRELY bad, it is what as known as most "desirable."

Yes, it is very US oriented and geared, as it was written by someone in the United States. There should be a Japanese list made of highly sought after games as well, but mostly the PC Engine and Famicom contest items are more desired by Japanese collectors.

Adol: You know it is not based on rarity. By definition, rarity would be geared towards prototypes more than anything. If we placed contest items on there, those were handed out and not sold in stores either, so you would need to include prototypes, which do not NEED to be on the list IMO, but as to your argument, the rarest items are those where 1-2 exist.

As far as Lord of the Dungeon goes, isn't that a repro released at CGE? Why would you place an aftermarket repro based on a Coleco proto on the list? That makes no sense to me. There are more desirable games (boxed) for Coleco than that.

Once again, by definition, the gray NWC is highly sought after (Adol, 300 have not been found. They might have made 300, but only 90 were given to winners, and if you want to be frank, maybe another 30 or so to Nintendo marketing/employees, etc. Total of perhaps 120.) A lot of people want the 1990 NWC, so that has to be on there as it is DESIRABLE as the article is stating, even if it talks about "holy grails", which can be a bit misleading.

The gold NWC, of which 26 were given out, less than 10 have been "discovered" and not lost. That is what you have to understand about the gold NWC. You can probably make a list of everyone that has one, and the others may or may not ever surface.

Granted something like Campus Challenge for NES is much rarer (1 known found copy) but it is not as desirable as the 1990 NWC and not worth as much.

Remember, rarity does not equate to value in video games in some instances. I wish more people realized that because if we specifically went haywire with value as rarity, I'd be a freaking millionaire then by that definition.

VegaNine

10-16-2006, 03:23 PM

A list of gaming Holy Grails will always be subjective, time-intensive, and very, very arguable.

I wrote this article ;) ...and while it's certainly no big deal, my excess of free time will give you some answers...

First, this wasn't a list of the twenty least common games, as most have (thankfully) understood. That would've derived the fun from a theoretical topic. I could've listed 20 one-of-a-kind games, and left the feasibly obtainable ones to the honorable mentions; that wouldn't have been relevant to many readers. Perhaps it is somewhat US centric, but there were a good number of imports listed, and I know European collectors have claimed many of the US titles, the NWC gold included.

If a game was omitted, it was only because there was a title with a similar level of interest that I gave its place to. It was an ascending list of Holy Grails for any collector and of all regard, so a particular game would have only had one or two spots to fit into. I also believe Air Raid is a bootleg, but that belief doesn't seem enough to negate the zeal of many 2600 collectors; which is why Air Raid was nominated over say, Video Life.

The Blockbuster Championships II cart raises a few perplexing questions, I so I instead gave the nod to a "potential(?)" ,Bangai-O PE, to keep the list less convoluted. I thought I'd surprise some collectors with that, and there'd be no harm done. It was just for flavor.

SMS is a great console for new collectors to start with, so for those collectors, deciding on or against Sonic US would be a defining moment on where they'll draw lines. This article certainly wasn't for experienced collectors only, so I included Sonic for that importance and because to some people, it really is something, But hey, I shoved down to the bottom! Stickers and inserts may not change a game's code, but they're certainly enough to sway collectors into believing they need these particular copies.

This wasn't supposed to be the end-all of holy grail lists, just a quiet one-up on the game mag attempts that would have you believe Panzer Saga to be some sort of proto. O_O I've never really seen any articles name more than a few "holy grails", so I thought I'd try my hand at this thing.

Thanks for the compliments, complaints, etc....People sure do love to tear at these things! LOL

VegaNine

10-16-2006, 03:30 PM

That list is not ENTIRELY bad

How sweet of you! LOL

Aswald

10-16-2006, 03:33 PM

I mentioned that there had to be an original prototype of CV LOTD for there to be copies- wouldn't THAT particular one be of some value?

50TBRD

10-16-2006, 03:48 PM

I like your list eventhough there are a lot of games for consoles that I'm not really interested in and don't know anything about.

The Holy Grail is an item of mythic lore which was believed to exist but was unatainable.

So, for beginning collectors, or people with shallow pockets, most of the games on that list are seeming unattainable. However, if your going to shoot for the moon, do it, and shoot for the moon. Which is why I still stand by Mr Boston rather than Minestorm II, but still think that its a nice inclusion on your list. Vectrex could have been totally neglected all together.

rbudrick

10-16-2006, 04:51 PM

Remember, rarity does not equate to value in video games in some instances. I wish more people realized that because if we specifically went haywire with value as rarity, I'd be a freaking millionaire then by that definition.

Well, you would be if you sold your collection! :D LOL

-Rob

DreamTR

10-16-2006, 06:08 PM

VegaNine: I was just emphasizing what others were saying about it, being a bad read and all, I think there are some minor subjective games that should be omitted (like Bangai-O) but other than that it's on target.

DreamTR

10-16-2006, 06:11 PM

Also, Vega Nine: Tips & Tricks is pretty proficient in determining what games really are collectable, they are not on the frenzy of Dracula X being the almighty tough game to find for PC Engine Duo.

Adol

10-16-2006, 06:31 PM

That's what i said,it is a "desireable"list for US/Canadian ppl!

Japanese people won't give a shit about NWC carts!
The same way you don't give a shit about Rockman 4 gold carts, but maybe MORE japanese people want it than US people wantt he NWC Carts...but i'm sure you can't realize that.

DreamTR: Such lists exist and are online, too bad you can't read japanese for checking them,but i do :)
Your NWC Greay Cart theory goes for Power League Gold Hucard as well: 200 were made,but not 200 were found.Not even half of it.
Then Power League Gold Hucard is LESS produced than NWC Grey carts,LESS were found,and maybe MORE ppl is looking for it than NWC Grey Carts (unless you're japanese and know well japanese market,you can't be sure)

Again,your NWC Gold Cart theory apply to Rockman 4 Gold Cart as well:
8 were made,but not 8 were found.Not even half of it.
Then Rockman 4 Gold Cartridge is LESS produced than NWC Gold carts,LESS were found,and maybe MORE ppl is looking for it than NWC Gold Carts (unless you're japanese and know well japanese market,you can't be sure)

DreamTR

10-16-2006, 06:45 PM

The Japanese are a strange bunch, but I can see why they would not care about our contest cart. Europeans do care to an extent because two gold NWCs are sitting in Holland and Norway as we speak.

Gray NWCs that have been "found" I would say hover around 60.

VegaNine

10-16-2006, 06:48 PM

DreamTR: I get ya. ;)

And yes, I'm aware of Tips & Tricks' monthly feature being the exception, I wasn't jabbing at it, but find some other mags who don't keep Chase the Chuckwagon locked away on an island. :)

Adol: I have a hard time believing that any region (let alone one as comparitively small as Japan), would desire a Rockman title more than Westerners would a Mario game, and one with a far heavier history. Have Europeans not acquired two of the "ten" NWC gold carts? I don't see Rockman Gold as being a game that extends much beyond Japanese collectors.

Adol

10-16-2006, 07:25 PM

That's because you're sharing a same language with UK: English. That's it.

If you shared japanese language with Japan, you'd have cared most for Rockman 4 than for Stadium Events,as an example.

But since very few people here knows better about Japanese collectors than US/Canadian ones (which i can understand), i understand why such list exist.
It's just they're not the "most collectables/desireables" games in the world...They're for a part of it.ONLY for a part of it.

Like Japanese "holy grails" are for Japan.

DreamTR:There's less than 60 Power League Gold Hucard found,so that proves again my theory.

And Japanese aren't more a "strange bunch" than US.
I never said they did NOT care about US/Canadian trophies,i said they care LESS than japanese ones.

VegaNine: That's because European NES&USA NES market are so "close"together...same HUGE cartridge size, box, styrofoam, instruction booklet, etc..Between USA& UK NES Games,near only barcodes distinguish them.

If european AND US people wouldn't care about japanese rare stuff,why 80% of Super Mario Game& Watch YM-901 are outside of Japan,mm? Mainly in Europe..

Anyway,all that is relative..It's just bad that because people can't read japanese,they're not "open minded" and only see a "part" of the whole video game history: theirs.

I'm European,and i don't only care about European stuff.

Ps:Sorry for any mistake, English is not my native language.

Adol

10-16-2006, 07:29 PM

DraeamTR: And Europeans do care about japanese collectors,since i own many of them,and i'm European.

In fact,i'm pretty sure that Europeans ppl care more about japanese stuff than US stuff.

In France, we imported TONS of games,pratically every game since 1990 from Japan...and not USA games,because they were already existing in PAL format.

Mainly,SNES imports were for RPGs...nobody imported action or sports games,because we already had those on French Super Nintendo Market.

But we imported tons of SFC games,because they did not exist at all!

In fact,i think japanese video games market is the one other people than Japan on this planet care the MOST besides their own market.

VegaNine

10-16-2006, 08:43 PM

If you shared japanese language with Japan, you'd have cared most for Rockman 4 than for Stadium Events,as an example.

I'm sorry to hear that you think I disregard the Japanese market, but do understand enough of the language, and I'm not naive to their collecting habits. As for Stadium Events, I'm unsure why a parallel has now been drawn between it and Rockman Gold. Of course Rockman would be the more desired of the two, but you had been suggesting Rockman Gold to be the holy grail, regardless of region, and I don't see how you can weigh it to get that result. Because there are fewer copies?

Can you truly say that more Japanese collectors would seek Rockman than US collectors would seek NWC? There are certainly more collectors in NWC's territory...and forgive my assumption, but I'm certain more European collectors would have greater interest in the gold NWC carts than Rockman. Even given that Europeans may be more apt to import Japanese games, I can't see a character-based Famicom cart like Rockman being more significant to that territory than an era representing, Nintendo-themed NES game. It seems two larger regions are against one smaller region in this comparison.

That's because European NES&USA NES market are so "close"together...same HUGE cartridge size, box, styrofoam, instruction booklet, etc..Between USA& UK NES Games,near only barcodes distinguish them.

So NWC would also in size, sense and manner, seem more relevant to the UK market than Rockman.

I'm having trouble seeing the core of this whole discussion. What's the goal here?

Adol

10-17-2006, 05:23 AM

I never said Rockman 4 was "THE holy grail", i said it is rarer and as valuable than NWC Gold Cart,that's it.

Now,concerning your asking, YES i don't think NWC Gold Cart is MORE asked/desireable by US NES fans, than Rockman 4 Gold Cart for Japanese Famicom fans.

And you can have assumptions about what "think" Europeans, but i AM an European.

Too, what i meant to say is that in GENERAL (don't think NES only), retrogaming collectors in Europe are more interested in Japanese games than USA/Canada games.
NES market isn't a good example of the whole retrogaming market in general.
Take Saturn,SNES,Megadrive,Playstation 1 markets and you'll see VERY FEW US games compared to Japanese ones here.

As an example, there are 5 times more japanese games in France than USA/Canada ones. That's pretty significant concerning our interest in Japanese a US games.

Too, letting think that NWC Carts is a "Mario" game is kind of...exagerated IMHO...You can say Super Smash Bros is a Zelda game as well,since Link is in it, as well, then?

Your list spoke about video games in general,not NES only, right?
You speak about Colecovision,etc...this is clearly US/Canada oriented, because there is many MSX games as rare as the ones you mentionned, and you don't speak of them.
Why? Because you're not interested in them.They're Japanese.

That's what i meant to say.

Mayhem

10-17-2006, 07:25 AM

It's for this sort of reason that when I wrote a similar "rare game" piece for Retro Gamer in the past, I gathered entries from all three major regions: Europe (eg. Rodland NES, Kizuna Encounter), US (eg. Video Life 2600, Ultima Escape from Mount Drash Vic20) and Japan (eg. Rakugaki Showtime, Darius Alpha).

Though to use the examples Adol has given, I also wanted to use games that people might have actually heard of. And by "people" that's the potential readers of the magazine, which is not going to cover Japan much (though apparently the magazine is sold there in some form).

So whilst I don't deny the gold Hucard and the Rockman 4 are definitely rare, and probably desired by Japanese collectors, hardly anyone here probably knows of them. Whereas any reasonably informed collector should have heard of all six examples I listed above at the top. And that's partly why they got the nod.

Adol

10-17-2006, 07:28 AM

I fully understand that,but there is no point arguing with what i said: this list is not Worldwide oriented USA/Canada oriented,period.

Besides that,this list is good

Adol

10-17-2006, 07:29 AM

Damn edit option,i miss you!

I meant this list is not Worldwide oriented,but USA/Canada oriented,period.

50TBRD

10-17-2006, 07:29 AM

The article is meant for a US audience, so it can be assumed that most of the readers will mostly have US collections, therefore, the games and systems that are presented in the article are mostly US ones.

It is presumable that if those collectors do collect foreign games, then they do so mostly parttime.

It's a list with something for everyone, but obviously you cannot please everyone. I don't really have a problem with the list as Minestorm is one of the most sought after carts for Vectrex, and the DK Comp and SFSW Comp Carts are the most sought after carts for SNES. A lot of the others I have heard in passing but I'm not as avid a collector of any other system.

VegaNine

10-17-2006, 07:30 AM

I never said Rockman 4 was "THE holy grail", i said it is rarer and as valuable than NWC Gold Cart,that's it.

So why draw a comparison?

Now,concerning your asking, YES i don't think NWC Gold Cart is MORE asked/desireable by US NES fans, than Rockman 4 Gold Cart for Japanese Famicom fans

So you don't "think" it's as desired - that's fine. But it can't be asked "who wants it more - the US for NWC or the Japanese for Rockman?" There is no absolute way to compare the psyche of these collectors. The only definite comparison you could make is in the number of collectors who seek these respective games. In this case, the NWC cart far outweighs the Rockman cart, as the US is simply a much larger territory. If you're looking for percentages from each region, take a poll, but it won't change the more important mass volume.

You say that the NES is not a good representation of Europeans wanting US games over Japanese games, but the NES is the only representation being made here. I'm not trying to argue that Europeans would rather import US games, I'm not European, and they probably wouldn't. This is only regarding the NWC cart - an NES game - and as you've shown, there are more parallels between the US and Euro NES market than there are for the Euro and Japanese Fam/NES market.

As for NWC not being a "Mario" game, I think this may be your instance of misunderstanding other collectors. Now that isn't to say Europeans don't "get" the NWC, because it's proven that some do...it's simply that Rockman is a game central to the Japanese, and NWC (while the event was held in the US) has more global pertainance. If there is something more between European collectors and Rockman 4, please explain, because I'm not finding it as a game more relevant to that market than NWC would be.

And yes, the article was geared mostly to US/CDN collectors, but it wasn't completely US based. It was written in English, and was largely for the regions who speak it. For whatever it's worth, there were numerous European and even Japanese gaming sites who linked to the article, and there hasn't been very much reservation over the top choices.

I'm starting to wonder what exactly is being argued, so forgive me if I bow outta this. x_x

Adol

10-17-2006, 07:30 AM

50TBRD: Actually,this list in on INTERNET.
It can be seen by the whole WORLD, such as me in France, Europe.
That is the point of Internet.

I didn't know it was for "usa/canada readers" only.

Adol

10-17-2006, 07:38 AM

VegaNine: Because your list is a "top20",and then you made a comparaison between those 20 games.You choose 1 game to be numer 1,another to be number 2,etc.

Then why can't i say Rockman 4 Gold Cart is way rarer than your "number 1", if you have the possibility to say it is rarer than your "number 2"?

About your theory,it is plainly wrong.
That's not because USA is a more large territory than Japan,that it makes more ppl seeking for NWC cart than for Rockman 4 Gold Cart (and again Rockman 4 gold cart was just an example,there are others).
If i follow your thoughts,then a rare indian game will be more in demand,because there is 1 billion indians.
Same goes with chinese game market then, since china has 4 times more inhabitants than USA.

YOU "think" NWC is more in demand than Rockman 4, and i think the opposite.Your point of view VS. my point of view,and i don't see why yours will go over mine (and vice versa)..but denying other points of view won't help.

No,NES isn't the only representation made here...you made a top 20 list of all video game systems,not NES only.
Come back to reality, retrogaming market isn't NES only.

I do own Power League Gold Hucard,so does 2 other french people,so "it's proven that some ppl" do own those japanese "grails".

And finally,OUTSIDE of japanese stuff, i'm pretty sure more European collectors desire Kizuna Encounter English cart than NWC Gold Cart...no comparaison between those 2, KE is way more asked in France (and i "think",because nobody can be sure..you,me, or somebody else) than NWC Gold cart (barely known here)

50TBRD

10-17-2006, 07:39 AM

It maybe on the Internet for all readers but it is being mostly circulated and proliferated in US circles or US speaking countries. I don't believe that the article is translated in another page in Japanese, French, Italian, or any other language.

Adol

10-17-2006, 07:42 AM

You can add that one as well:

http://nekofan.free.fr/hucardsampletest.htm
http://nekofan.free.fr/hucardsampletest2.htm

Owned by a french friend of mine,than an "european collector",and this is a japanese holy grail.

First PC Engine Hucard ever created,2 known to exist,1 found.

Adol

10-17-2006, 07:46 AM

Adol

10-17-2006, 07:49 AM

VegaNine

10-17-2006, 07:57 AM

About your theory,it is plainly wrong.
That's not because USA is a more large territory than Japan,that it makes more ppl seeking for NWC cart than for Rockman 4 Gold Cart (and again Rockman 4 gold cart was just an example,there are others).
If i follow your thoughts,then a rare indian game will be more in demand,because there is 1 billion indians.
Same goes with chinese game market then, since china has 4 times more inhabitants than USA.

YOU "think" NWC is more in demand than Rockman 4, and i think the opposite.Your point of view VS. my point of view,and i don't see why yours will go over mine (and vice versa)..but denying other points of view won't help.

"More inhabitants" does not equal more gamers. Since when has the Asian gaming market been as collectively large as it is in the US?

I am not "denying a point of view" anymore than you are, I'm only stating why facts would place the NWC as the more desired of these two games.

No,NES isn't the only representation made here...you made a top 20 list of all video game systems,not NES only.
Come back to reality, retrogaming market isn't NES only.

In reality, we are in a message board where you have been comparing Rockman to NWC; two NES/Fam games. I was speaking of your comparison, not of the list in general. It's being said that one NES game is more desired than another, and in the context of the response, the NES was the only representation being made. I'm not arguing anything else.

And finally,OUTSIDE of japanese stuff, i'm pretty sure more European collectors desire Kizuna Encounter English cart than NWC Gold Cart...no comparaison between those 2, KE is way more asked in France (and i "think",because nobody can be sure..you,me, or somebody else) than NWC Gold cart (barely known here)

Now we're adding Kizuna! @_@ Adol, you've been talking of Rockman 4 vs. NWC, it doesn't matter if Kizuna is more desired in Europe than NWC (I acknowledged that), I'm saying that to the collective world, the Nintendo World Championships Gold is the more relevant of these two grails, not that it dominates every territory outside of Japan.

VegaNine

10-17-2006, 08:10 AM

Adol: My list was far more selective than a list naming hundreds of rare games like that one. I know how many rare Japanese games are out there, but what is being questioned is whether one of them is more desired than the premier US one. If you check that list, the prices that you've been so keen to clamor about favor the NWC over the "more rare" Rockman. Of course, this all has to consider desirabilty, but I'm sure that would have merit to someone who started an argument on the conditions of value and production runs.

Regardless, I never meant this list to be an absolution of European gaming grails.

Adol

10-17-2006, 09:14 AM

Veganine;and what are your solid "criterias" except your "thoughts" that NWC Grey Cart is more in demand than Power League Gold Hucard?

You say that to the collective world, the Nintendo World Championships Gold is the more relevant than Kizuna

What makes you think that?
Which "collective world" are you talking about?

There is no "facts" at all here,only thoughts.

Captain Wrong

10-17-2006, 09:15 AM

Y'know, I read the article before I saw this thread and frankly I think I *got* it. Like you said VegaNine, people love to tear into these things (try writing a greatest games of all time list next. People really get their panties in a twist over those things.)

I also really dug your thoughts on investing in games and reprints, though I'll bet if people here stumbled across those you'd get equally passioned responces. I seem to remember the reprint issue leading to a big ass thread here a while ago.

Oh and welcome to the board. :)

50TBRD

10-17-2006, 09:25 AM

50TBRD:

Such thing like "being mostly circulated and proliferated in US circles or US speaking countries" is non sense.

When it's on the web,it can be seen WORLDWIDE.

I'm in a non-english speaking country,and i read it.
And i understood it. Isn't that incredible? :)

Too bad it isn't translated in other languages,ithat would help ppl knowing about retrogaming "grails".

But i can't hope every people to speak english,french,japanese or other languages (spanish,italian,etc).

It's non-sense to you, because obviously you don't know what the words mean in English, but I understand as you said that it's not you native language. It was put out, or circulated on a US based website, and is being discussed, or proliferated, on another US based website. Though, that's not the true meaning of the words, but only the meaning of the words in this context. And if you have any doubt that these are US based websites, then just look at the URL- .com. It doesn't say .jp, .fr, or .de for Japan, France, or Germany, and therefore is not writen with the Japanese, French, or Germans in mind, but Americans. It's not restricted from them, just had them in mind.

I'm sure that when Veganine/SegaVega wrote the article, he never thought that French or Japanese or whatever would have objections about the ommission of a few games that are native to coutries other than the US. I doubt that he thought that that there would be such a clamour over his article at all, seeing as how it is an opinion. And as an opinion, he is entitled to include or exclude any games that he wishes, which may or may not be foreign.

Though as being opened up for discussion in a forum, everyone is entitled to state their objections.

Adol

10-17-2006, 09:59 AM

"And if you have any doubt that these are US based websites, then just look at the URL- .com."

Since when .com websites are US based?
.fr means they're french websites, .jp japanese..

But .com websites aren't at all US based..?

Adol

10-17-2006, 10:02 AM

Exactly,it is his opinion.

Everybody is free to say their opinion,and i say mine.

What i disagree is that US ppl "think" some stuff about european market/gamers,and disagree when a real european one (me) say the opposite.

Veganine: you said too that "More inhabitants does not equal more gamers.

Then i can reverse this theory: Why do you think USA has more gamers than Japanese? because there is more "inhabitants" and because the country is wider?

VegaNine

10-17-2006, 11:01 AM

Captain Wrong, 50TBRD: Thank you for the defense.

Veganine: you said too that "More inhabitants does not equal more gamers.

Then i can reverse this theory: Why do you think USA has more gamers than Japanese? because there is more "inhabitants" and because the country is wider?

No, because game sales in the US are greater than those of Japan's, the DS love affair aside. I'm not sure there is a single considerate global sales chart that would tell you otherwise.

Veganine;and what are your solid "criterias" except your "thoughts" that NWC Grey Cart is more in demand than Power League Gold Hucard?
You're losing me...I don't know how these comparisons keep getting created. If you're suggesting this because Power League wasn't on the list, than I'll say again that I had the American/English community in mind when I wrote this. It was an ascending list beginning with the lowest of grails -- the ones most of those readers could relate to. It woudn't have been very interesting to that average, non-collecting gamer if all twenty games were Japanese contest prizes. I've heard from numerous people who after reading the list, discovered Starfox Weekend, Magical Chase, even NWC gray and others, hidden away in their basements.

It was for fun and information, mostly for North American gamers who happen to be non-collectors.

You say that to the collective world, the Nintendo World Championships Gold is the more relevant than Kizuna

What makes you think that?
Which "collective world" are you talking about?
Surely, you can't be suggesting Kizuna Encounter is more globally relevant game than NWC Gold...Kizuna is notable for only the most extreme of the extremist collectors: the Neo completists, and only a few of them at that. NWC is significant of an era and an industry triumph, and is on a platform/houses three games which an uncountable number of gamers have become very passionate about. I've not been here long, but I'm sure you'd be quite alone on that belief.

Soma

10-17-2006, 11:26 AM

Veganine:

Check it out:
http://tengokugame.free.fr/dossier_collector/sommaire.html

That's another "list", made by an european collector.

Why 95% of the "grails" mentionned there are japanese stuff?

I think it is not updated for a long time. It is your friend Thibaut site isn't it? I like it lots but think lots of the information is wrong?

Adol

10-17-2006, 11:33 AM

Veganine: "No, because game sales in the US are greater than those of Japan's "

Maybe,but i' not sure sales of US games in the world are greater than sales of Japanese games in the world..do you understand?

About NWC/Kizuna,i'm justs aying that in France,which is an EUROPEAN country, Kizuna is more desireable,rarer,more in demand ( add other words you want) than NWC carts.
For SURE.

VegaNine

10-17-2006, 12:26 PM

Veganine: "No, because game sales in the US are greater than those of Japan's "

Maybe,but i' not sure sales of US games in the world are greater than sales of Japanese games in the world..do you understand?

I wouldn't wager on it, but I was only getting at the answer to this...

"Why do you think USA has more gamers than Japanese? because there is more "inhabitants" and because the country is wider?"

...In which sales suggest that the US has more individual gamers. I understand your argument, but it's not entirely conductive to the belief that Rockman would be more desired than NWC Gold. NWC is more of a metaphor and less of the typical game than Rockman for that to work.

Now, when I said that NWC is more relevant to the world, you defended Kizuna and asked why I thought that...

About NWC/Kizuna,i'm justs aying that in France,which is an EUROPEAN country, Kizuna is more desireable,rarer,more in demand ( add other words you want) than NWC carts.
For SURE.

I agree, and I've said so the entire time. We just did a circle x_x

But Kizuna's desire doesn't extend in the manner the NWC's does, nor does it have a larger core of collectors in its region who are after it.

I think that about does it for this one, is this almost over? LOL @_@

rbudrick

10-17-2006, 01:18 PM

Gray NWCs that have been "found" I would say hover around 60.

Wow, DreamTR, that's being really generous. I would say closer to 30. I probably only have pics of 20 of them. Although a pic of #0262 should be on it's way to me today.

-Rob

Speedy_NES

10-17-2006, 01:25 PM

I don't want to join the discussion too much, and I don't have anything against the holy grail list (nice list, by the way :)). but I just want to drop in and say that the whole belief that Europeans are interested in NWCs is a total misconception. The two collectors in Europe who own a Gold NWC are simply outliers, just like Adol is an outlier by owning a bunch of extremely rare JP games. I visit various EU forums from different countries, and I've seen the NWC brought up off and on on those forums (mostly when the cart is mentioned on a US site or listed on eBay), and the only response they get is, "what the hell is that thing?" Fact is, people only desire what they know is out there, and the NWC is definitely not known around Europe as much as some people seem to think. I'd have to agree with Adol there that Europeans seem to be more into obscure JP stuff than obscure US items, but that's just my opinion. It's true that if everyone around the world was completely aware of all of the holy grails, they may think the NWC is a cooler item than a Rockman gold cart, but the people who actually want these items for their collections and those who would actually pay for them, are also the ones who actually do the research to find out about them...and those type of people (collectors) around Europe definitely seem to be more into JP stuff.

Adol

10-17-2006, 03:14 PM

Speedy_Nes: my point exactly,thanks

Veganine: we're done if you want to...we're just having a "good argue",nothing more,and i think that's productive..
Your list is great and is surely done for US/Canada people..having a "wider" point of view i find it not exactly right,but that's my point of view and ONLY my point of view.

However,in Europe,when we talk about imports, we're more interested into japanese stuff than US one,for SURE.

Then,in Europe,i think we're more enthusiastic for japanese holy grails/rare games,than US ones.
That's why your list doesn't "excite" me much :)
But i understand it does for USA/Canada residents

Have a good day

fishsandwich

10-17-2006, 03:58 PM

Adol, you're English is pretty good. Why don't you write your own list from your perspective?

Adol

10-17-2006, 04:06 PM

I could, but it'd be japanese oriented, since this is the "sector" i know the best about,owning 20 complete sets.

VegaNine

10-17-2006, 04:18 PM

Great, I suppose it's settled then.

I agree NWC's reach doesn't extend very far outside its native continent, and I suppose in most regards, the same can be said of Rockman and Kizuna.

My final thoughts are thus: I believe more collectors, wherever they may be, are actively searching for the NWC carts. I think there's some good evidence to that, so I'll stick to it.

That all, I guess. What a killer fight...some serious fun! :P

And wow, an edit feature would have been handy!