Xploder HDTV for the PS2 [Archive] - Retrogaming Roundtable

RARusk

10-16-2006, 01:09 AM

On a recent trip to the PS2 Scene forums I was turned onto this upcoming product from Xploder which can be found here:

http://www.xploder.net/products/148/Xploder-HDTV-Player.htm

From what I can gather, what these guys did was dig around the hardware and found these hidden resolution modes which can be triggered (kinda like dipswitches). So you can play most any PS2 game in Progressive Scan mode.

This is not the same as upscaling. The picture is formed inside the PS2 in Progressive Scan then sent out as Interlaced Scan. What the Xploder software does is simply tell the PS2 to send the image out as Progressive Scan instead of Interlaced by utilizing these hidden "dipswitches".

Very effective from what I have heard so far. And with a (current) 95% compatability rate which is far more than the Blaze VGA disc that came out a couple of years ago. This will even let you play DVD movies in Progressive Scan even on the older PS2 machines which did not have the feature built-in.

Should be out this month but the various EB Games/GameStops I have visited do not have any info as of yet. Man, I can't wait to try this out on my "Grand Theft Auto" games.....

Anthony1

10-16-2006, 02:09 AM

Wow, I know you know your shit R.A., so now I'm officially curious about this thing. When I first heard about it, I just figured it was some lame software upscaling algorythm thing.

R.A., don't you play games like San Andreas and stuff in analog rgb on your NEC MultiSync? Back when I had a PS2, San Andreas looked amazing in analog rgb on my Commodore 1084S-D1. Sure, it wasn't 480p, but it still looked damn good. I'm still quite skeptical of that thing, but the fact that you actually have an interest in it, means that I should too, lol.

JLukas

10-16-2006, 06:15 AM

Here's IGN's articles on it:

http://gear.ign.com/articles/723/723551p1.html

http://gear.ign.com/articles/723/723025p1.html

Has it been released yet?

RARusk

10-17-2006, 01:08 AM

"Wow, I know you know your shit R.A., so now I'm officially curious about this thing. When I first heard about it, I just figured it was some lame software upscaling algorythm thing.

R.A., don't you play games like San Andreas and stuff in analog rgb on your NEC MultiSync? Back when I had a PS2, San Andreas looked amazing in analog rgb on my Commodore 1084S-D1. Sure, it wasn't 480p, but it still looked damn good. I'm still quite skeptical of that thing, but the fact that you actually have an interest in it, means that I should too, lol."

I think the Blaze VGA deal used those algorythms and I believe the cancelled Codebreaker VGA product before that was doing the same thing. But from what I read in the PS2 Scene forums, the Xploder product does it's thing very differently.

These hidden resolution modes were hinted at within the PS2 Linux pages that I read some time ago. So that's where the Xploder guys dug around and found them. Then they made a program that activates them. Very simple. Doesn't mess up the game software. Just put in the Xploder disc, choose your resolution, and then put in the game or movie. That's it.

And, as you already know Anthony, EVERYTHING looks amazing in RGB. :)

THATinkjar

10-17-2006, 04:06 AM

Forgive my ignorance, RARusk - but this is where I get very confused. Wouldn't choosing a higher resolution seriously effect the framerate? A game such as Shadow of the Colossus would just become unplayable.

Joker T

10-17-2006, 03:46 PM

Gamereviewgod

10-17-2006, 09:49 PM

s1lence

10-17-2006, 10:16 PM

When is it coming out? I haven't seen it for sale yet.

RARusk

10-18-2006, 12:41 AM

If I read things correctly, the picture is formed inside the video memory as a 480p or 525p image but is usually sent out to the AV plug as a 480i or 525i image. So, technically, all games are progressive scan but that images are "dumbed down" to interlaced for standard video after formation. So there shouldn't be any slowdown when progessive scan is activated by the Xploder product.

There are some games that will blow up when using this product but it appears to be about 5% at the moment.

I've also been informed that the Blaze VGA product, which I mentioned earlier as using algorythms, did somethihing similar to the Xploder product. However, the Xploder product is supposed to be a lot better than the Blaze unit.

Now what I need to do is find a solid way to remove sync from green so I can make a decent VGA adapter for my PS2. My MultiSync 3D can do sync-on-green but this will give me an excuse to do research on sync removal (which is much harder than sync separation).

RARusk

10-18-2006, 12:43 AM

Oh, I almost forgot. I keep reading that the product should be released this month but all of the game stores I frequent don't have any info on it. I'll keep trying.

Niku-Sama

10-18-2006, 03:01 AM

i wonder how easily it can be used with the independence exploit and HD loader/Advance

THATinkjar

10-18-2006, 04:25 AM

Oh, I almost forgot. I keep reading that the product should be released this month but all of the game stores I frequent don't have any info on it. I'll keep trying.

I was under the impression that it would only be made available in the UK (possibly Europe as a whole) to begin with. You could always buy it direct from their website, though.

ProgrammingAce

10-18-2006, 05:57 PM

I spoke with the company about this thing, they've already gone to press with them and they'll be shipping out the review copies by the end of the week. They're sending me one, so i'll toss up a review and let you guys know how well it works.

I went digging through the sony paperwork on the PS2 and can't find much info on the rendering pipeline (even in the dev documents).

The only thing I can figure is that the video signal is kept in progressive format until it hits the video encoder, where it's output as interlaced. This product would then disable/bypass the encoder... Problem is, the encoder is also where the system would format it for pal vs. ntsc. And none of this explains how you would end up with 1080i. I *think* PS2 linux is capible of such resolutions, but only with the VGA adapter, and then you're stuck with the Sync-On-Green as stated above...

No matter what, i'm confused.

FAMOUS

10-18-2006, 08:23 PM

Does it say anywhere when its gonna hit the streets?

ProgrammingAce

10-18-2006, 08:46 PM

They're saying it'll be out in october, but i'm not sure if that's only in the UK or worldwide. If they haven't already started shipping them, i find an october release unlikely. I would expect early november, but they haven't put a date on it yet.

Richter

10-18-2006, 11:15 PM

should check to see if it works with the HDLoader (if possible)

RARusk

10-19-2006, 01:06 AM

"I *think* PS2 linux is capible of such resolutions, but only with the VGA adapter, and then you're stuck with the Sync-On-Green as stated above..."

This is the reason I am trying to build my own adapter that will work on all VGA monitors.

First, one needs to get the sync channels (horizontal and vertical) from the green video line. I plan to use the ISL59885 sync chip for this part (I got four samples from Intersil some time ago but haven't used them at this point). This is the easy part.

Second, after acquiring sync from green, the sync needs to be removed from the green video line. This is NOT so easy. I have not mastered the ability to remove sync from video and I need to do research to find ways of doing that. The reason you need to remove sync from green is most monitors will see the sync as some form of brightness signal and you will end up with a nasty green tint.

If I can do sync removal then it is just a matter of putting all of the parts together.

A true VGA adapter would include a cheap upscaler to allow you to see what you are doing when using the Xploder disc then be disabled when the PS2 switches to progressive scan. But I will settle for sync separation and removal since I have a monitor that can do 480i and 480p resolution.

Joker T

10-20-2006, 12:10 PM

Seems its available now.

http://www.xploder.net/products/148/Xploder-HDTV-Player.htm

theshizzle3000

10-21-2006, 11:09 AM

I am sure this thing would make Atari games look bettter

s1lence

10-21-2006, 12:47 PM

I ordered mine this morning from their website. It was 39.95 for the NTSC version plus shipping. I figured why not, if it does anything close to what it says it should be pretty sweet.

NEOFREAK9189

10-21-2006, 01:20 PM

I wanted for game cube or nintendo Wii 720P image

CartCollector

10-21-2006, 02:01 PM

RARusk,

I figured out how to remove the sync from green.
(NOTE: This gets technical.)
If the PS2 outputs 0.3v-0.7v as green, and VGA monitors accept 0v-0.7v, then the function to use would be f(g) = 1.75g - 0.525, where g is the sync-on-green value in volts. If the PS2 values I listed up there are incorrect, then it's not that hard to figure out what the function is, it's a y=mx+b equation.

I don't know exactly how to make the hardware, though. For subtraction, you could use either a resistor or an op-amp with 0.525v going into the - end. Multiplication would be a bit more difficult, but would probably use an op-amp and some extra analog components.

Joker T

10-21-2006, 03:52 PM

I ordered mine this morning from their website. It was 39.95 for the NTSC version plus shipping. I figured why not, if it does anything close to what it says it should be pretty sweet.

Be sure to post your thoughts on it.

s1lence

10-21-2006, 04:00 PM

RARusk

10-26-2006, 11:53 PM

I have done some researching into sync removal but there isn't a whole lot of stuff out there.

There is one page where you can make a sync removal device out of three small chips. I have had a copy of this document for awhile, but it is already outdated. Two of the chips have been replaced with better ones plus the ISL59885 doesn't output the signal the circuit needs to work.

But I did find something called SyncBlaster made by Keene Electronics. It is a small box that will allow you to manipulate sync. It will allow you to split sync, remove it from green, and even put it on green if you want. However, it is a UK product mainly because of the SCART plugs it uses. And I haven't been able to find out how much it costs.

What I would do with it is examine the chips to see if they run off of +5VDC and, if they do, then rig it to work with the PS2's +5VDC so I would not need an external power adaptor. So the SyncBlaster board can be used to remove sync from green and I would also add a small board with the ISL59885 to get sync from green prior to it being removed from the green line. I would also replace the SCART plugs with standard plugs.

NOTE: The ISL59885 auto-syncs itself to whatever sync rate is thrown at it plus it removes the extra sync pulses that the MacroVision copy protection scheme uses (so you can watch DVDs in RGB without your screen getting messed up). The chips inside the SyncBlaster, I believe, don't remove MacroVision and the ISL59885 is the latest sync chip on the market and probably a lot better than the ones inside the SyncBlaster.

RARusk

10-27-2006, 12:16 AM

Okay, I just got back from the Keene Electronics site and looked over their SyncBlaster line. I don't know why I didn't do this before. Well, the SyncBlaster is an expensive piece of electronics - roughly about $100 depending on the exchange rate. But if can do a lot you should expect to pay alot I guess.

At this point I may be better off trying to acquire another Version 3 PS2 motherboard (to replace the one I have damaged due to experimentation) and doing RGB modification to it. On the SCPH-30000 units you can acquire the sync straight off of the motherboard, disable Component Video, and even disable Sync-On-Green (something I haven't tried yet although I have the info on how to do it).

I should probably contact Intersil about their "simple sync removal" circuit and see if they can update it with the ISL59885 in mind. I have been dealing with them off and on for the past five years (they make the best sync separation chips) and maybe I can talk them into doing an update of that circuit for other experimenters.

shadowkn55

10-27-2006, 01:05 AM

Looks promising. Don't expect it to look spectacular past 480p though. PS2 games weren't designed with 720 and higher in mind. It's all upscaling in the higher resolutions. It's even admitted in the mini faq.

I somehow doubt this will work with hdloader. It's a piggyback program just like hdloader so it might be tricky getting it to work. They might be able to integrate this option into the next hdl patch or modchip bios. Swapping in the xploder disc every time will get old real quick.

I had the schematics for a device for using a non-SOG monitor with the linux kit a while back. I'll have to look in my archive for it. I didn't get around to building it since I borrowed a compatible monitor from a friend and I sold the kit after he took it back. But with this, I might have to go dig it up.

For the record, it's spelled algorithm.

marwan

10-27-2006, 04:09 PM

i wonder if it will get rid of the jaggies on the PS2 games.

shadowkn55

10-27-2006, 04:17 PM

i wonder if it will get rid of the jaggies on the PS2 games.

Probably not. That has something to do with the hardware graphics engine. All this thing does is unlock the progressive scan potential.

s1lence

10-27-2006, 08:23 PM

I got my shipping confirmation, should be recieving it in a couple days.

ProgrammingAce

10-27-2006, 09:43 PM

I received mine yesterday, but won't be able to try it out until Sunday. I'll have something up by the end of the weekend...

RARusk

10-27-2006, 11:50 PM

From what I have read on the same topic I started at GamesX, those who have both the Xploder HDTV and HDLoader have reported that you CANNOT use HDLoader with Xpolder HDTV.

As for resolution, the games are made with 480/525 vertical resolution in mind so I don't understand why you would want to go into 720/1080 territory. The images are not going to look that good in 720/1080. I will stick to just doing 480p since that is the maximum for my MultiSync 3D anyway.

s1lence

10-29-2006, 10:50 PM

Mine arrived yesterday but I was heading out of town so I didn't get to try it out...yet. I'll give it a full run down tomorrow.

s1lence

10-30-2006, 05:18 PM

Ok, it arrived on Saturday and I finally had a chance to play around with it. I tried 6 games, all PS2 on it so far and I'll say that it works as advertised. It puts the games into 720p and they run at full speed. I also discovered that it does work with backup copies of games, if your PS2 is chipped.

Now all that being said it does have some faults. One the jaggies are still there and any graphical flaw stands out, big time. Two grainy games still look grainy (see Ico).

Is it worth 50 bucks, well thats hard to say. I'm all for HD so I'm going to lean to the yes side. Granted I still have to monkey with the video settings but so far I would say if you like HD and have the TV that can support it get it.

Slate

10-30-2006, 05:36 PM

Is it worth 50 bucks? That is hard to say. I'm all for HD so I'm going to lean to the yes side. Granted I still have to monkey with the video settings but so far I would say if you like HD and have the TV that can support it get it.

I thought it was $40? Where did you get this $50 figure from? Anyway, I do not have HDTV just yet, But I thought of buying this as I hear PS2 looks like hell on component.

If it does not make a gigantic difference, It would be only worth $20 to me. If that.

Oh, one question: Wich resolution looks better for the PS2? 480P or 720P? I know you haven't messed with the video settings, But when you do, I'd like to know.

s1lence

10-30-2006, 05:44 PM

It was 50 after shipping. :) I wouldnt say its HUGE difference, but it is definately a visable difference. I didnt try it on 480p yet since I was more curious about 720p.

Gamereviewgod

10-30-2006, 06:45 PM

It was 50 after shipping. :) I wouldnt say its HUGE difference, but it is definitely a visable difference. I didnt try it on 480p yet since I was more curious about 720p.

Are there any other options for the video or do you just select a resolution and go?

s1lence

10-30-2006, 07:42 PM

You can chose pal/ntsc , vga modes, hdtv modes and adjust the screen position.

marwan

10-31-2006, 03:22 AM

does it stretch games into widescreen since HDTV is widescreen?

s1lence

11-01-2006, 08:44 AM

Yes, it stretches them into widescreen.

Mr. Smashy

11-01-2006, 12:33 PM

I'm mainly interested in this product for the potential to eliminate lag in PS2 fighting and music games that don't natively support HD video modes. Games like Guitar Hero are largely unplayable on LCD screens that convert everyting to 720p and on other HD sets that convert everything to 480p or 1080i. I'm hoping that this kind of product would fix that.

Damaniel

11-01-2006, 01:20 PM

IGN has posted a review of the Xploder HDTV player. Their conclusion? They weren't particularly impressed -- deinterlacing the 480i signal to 480p worked fine, but upscaling led to strange graphical distortion in some cases. I'm considering getting one at some point to do deinterlacing, but it doesn't look like a solution to getting HD-resolution graphics out of the PS2.

The full review is here:

http://gear.ign.com/articles/742/742965p1.html

s1lence

11-01-2006, 07:06 PM

Mr. Smashy

11-02-2006, 12:23 PM

The full review is here:

http://gear.ign.com/articles/742/742965p1.html

That review is pretty horrible. He didn't even test out music or fighting games. I'm also pretty sure that the reviewer is American, that he doesn't know he's reviewing a British product, and that 576p is pretty much a PAL exclusive HD format.

RARusk

12-19-2006, 11:29 PM

Today I went into a EB Games looking for cool cheap games when I stumbled on the Xploder HDTV package. I wasn't even looking for it. My mind had gotten preoccupied with work and writing a guide for "Bully" (for GameFAQs).

Natuarlly I picked it up. I have only tried it out on five games (in 640x480 VGA) so far.

"Bully" looks fantastic in Progressive Scan. No issues at all.

"Grand Theft Auto III", "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City", "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas", and "Grand Theft Auto: Liberty City Stories" work well but with one minor issue. The main title screens are in FMV and they weren't meant to be used in Progressive Scan. So they crap out a bit while playing. But when you get past the intros they look pretty good with no additional issues (other than the fact the GTA3 looks a little more jaggy due to it's ancient graphics).

Gamereviewgod

12-20-2006, 07:53 AM

Got this a while ago, but the whole board issue prevented me from posting (obviously). My problem with this was the compatibility. None of my obscure titles would play... at all.

Capcom Classics?
Contra?
Neo Contra?
Sega Classics Collection?
Silpheed?
R-Type Final?
Mobile Light Force 2?

Nope, none of them worked. I haven't really tried more since I bought it as this really discouraged me. King of Fighters Maximum Impact was a dramatic improvement I can add, but with such a large portion of my collection unuseable with it, it's really hard to justify what I paid for it.

PDorr3

12-20-2006, 12:44 PM

It should be noted that PS1 games are anything but compatible with this thing, s1lence pointed out to me on another forum that when you try and play one the picture on the TV is like basicaly non existant.

Gamereviewgod

12-20-2006, 02:38 PM