Die Platforming, Die!

[pragmatic insanester]

i'm so tired of platformers and platforming elements in non-platforming games. this isn't 1990 anymore, and we live in an age when videogames are approaching the depth of complex movies and novels. why do i still have to hunt for stupid collectables, leap from lousy platforms, and avoid crap like health-sucking lava and spawning enemies? i notice in games like Ninja Gaiden (xbox) that its not a hard boss or difficult array of enemies that keep me stuck for hours at a time - NO - its a fucking multi-angled jump with a timer ticking down! it seems that game developers are too uncreative to make a fun but understably hard battle or though provoking puzzle! no, in order to pump up the rental fees and your power bills, they stick in inane and pointless platforming elements!

when you buy a FPS, you want a first person shooter. not a "find platforms slippery" which turns in to "fucking punched (my) system". yet 3/4ths of FPS these days have poor cameras "guiding" you to hop across a bottomless pit with your save point 10 minutes back and a 3 minute cut-scene you can't skip!

even some of my favorite games have some of these issues (deus ex).

/rant

[chicnstu]

I enjoy the platforming parts. It keeps it interesting to me.

[s1lence]

Im not sick of Platforming, I'm sick of 3d games. Everything is 3d now. The only escape from NEW 3d games is basically on the DS, not including XBLA. 3d games still mean poor camera angles, some are getting better, but there are so many that are SO fucking bad it isnt funny.

Developers MAKE some new 2d games, PLEASE......

[chicnstu]

Seriously. Bring back Klonoa on consoles, make Sonic 2D again. CastleVania in 3D? Ugh...

[s1lence]

Seriously. Bring back Klonoa on consoles, make Sonic 2D again. CastleVania in 3D? Ugh...


Exactly, every Castlevania that is 3d has been mediocre at best.

[stargate]

Im not sick of Platforming, I'm sick of 3d games. Everything is 3d now. The only escape from NEW 3d games is basically on the DS, not including XBLA. 3d games still mean poor camera angles, some are getting better, but there are so many that are SO fucking bad it isnt funny.

Developers MAKE some new 2d games, PLEASE......

amen brother...

[Synergy]

I do have quite a bit of 3D games I love, but I must say...


Developers MAKE some new 2d games, PLEASE......

..QFT!

As far as platformers go, I don't really have a problem with them. It's just that most games today suffer from "sequelatis" and you don't see that many original games anymore.

Enough with the Sims expansions. I want more original stuff. Thanks in advance.

[Ed Oscuro]

That "this isn't 1990" phrase is particularly hateful because I could well say the same about many of the stupid, brainless conventions that cropped up in the last two generations.

Resident Evil was reinvented and that worked really well. You've just got to get rid of what's crap and add elements that use the extent of your format's capabilities.

I just played Delta Force 2 and the sequel Land Warrior over GameTap, and they're very rudimentary shooters by today's standards (DF2 more than LW, though). Shooters are a slightly different story than platformers, though, because it's relatively easy to make a simple shooter that's still fun regardless of its age (Serious Sam, DOOM) - just add lots of monsters.

I enjoyed the N64 CVs, but those don't hold up so well in terms of gameplay because movement is relatively sluggish and the weapon system is rudimentary. Secondary weapons (Reinhardt's sword, Carrie's bracelets, the Cornell's werewolf form) don't effectively complement any character's main attack by providing alternative options in certain circumstances, just weaker or stronger attacks. Finally, the game has no implementation of blocking - Carrie's slide tackle comes the closest, but again that isn't terribly useful.

On the other hand, Ninja Gaiden proved that you can do an action platformer well in 3D while keeping an atmosphere of mystery and exploration.

The interesting thing is that if you were to try to analyze the differences between the N64 CVs and Ninja Gaiden, you'd have to look somewhat deeply. Both games set up zones for fighting, and zones purely for exploration, so that's out. There's more similarities than differences - but those differences (mostly the combo system and weapons) make the game. I question whether the N64 really would have been capable of a set of animations as complete as those available in Ninja Gaiden, but on the other hand the N64 Zeldas had a well-thought out blocking system.

It's even arguable whether the N64 CVs needed (given the hardware) to do anything terribly differently. I can't think of many games that did no-combo combat in 3D as well. The challenge was in dodging and not timed button presses.

I'm all for CV in 3D, myself, but the CV team seems to need to throw away some of their preconcieved notions about what an action game should be in order to create a timeless classic. Lament of Innocence may not have ripped off Ninja Gaiden (they probably had the essentials of the combat system worked out before NG hit shelves, although there was a long stretch of development on LoI after that point - the release dates were early March and late September of 2004, respectively), but simply following its lead is not what most fans seem to want.

As an aside, I've also been playing Prince of Persia via GameTap. It's fun, but that's mostly due to the interesting platforming and the time system. Things have progressed enough that I'm actually finding myself peeved at the limited number of moves available.

[Graham Mitchell]

I agree that 3D platforming blows. It will take a lot to get me to play another 3D Mario game. I'm so damn sick of the collection tasks. It'd be one thing if I could see what I was supposed to get, but all these things are hidden, and exploring is a pain in the ass due to camera angle issues.

After 20 years, I'm pretty good at games. When I go back and play older games, the reasons I die tend to be due to technical issues with the game that make it unfair. For example, I was playing Gumshoe with the Zapper today. I can do that game flawlessly, except that there are times when Stevenson gets towards the bottom of the screen and the gunshots won't register down there for some reason, so he falls instead of jumps.

With newer games, I invariably die 70% of the time because of shitty camera-work. Last week I played PS2 Shinobi for the last goddamn time. Guys come out of nowhere and kill you constantly due the slow camera-angle changes. If you could see them, you could prepare and make short work of them, but you can't see them until they're striking you. Shadow of the Colossus had me swearing at the TV last night too. The 14th colossus knocks you around quite a bit, and every time he does, the camera goes aboslutely apeshit. By the time the camera gets itself out from being stuck inside a pillar or rock, you've got about 1 second to figure out where to run. Chances are it's a moot point becuase here he comes to head butt the crap out of you and you didn't even get a second to prepare for it because the camera was looking at the fine detail in the ceiling tiles, despite any attempts to re-aim it.

I miss in-depth 2D games. Thank God for the DS, eh?

[WiseSalesman]

I agree that platforming in non-platforming games is some bullshit. As much as I completely loved the new Zelda (TP), I am so fucking sick of games that make me jump from platform to platform when I have no control over when, where, or how high I jump.

But, as a point, 3D platforming CAN and HAS been done well. Mario 64 proved that much.

[tom]

personally i like the Pong elements best

[WanganRunner]

I enjoy the platforming parts. It keeps it interesting to me.

+1

Without them, it's just Wolfenstein 3D, lol.

[pragmatic insanester]

the whole 1990 thing was about how most games were just that, games. if they even had a story is was like two paragraphs at the most. in those days you weren't quite as pissed off at getting "congrats! you've beaten so and so!" and the credits rolling as your ending. i'm not bashing older games. some of my favorite games are from 1990-ish. i'm saying that they were still created for the most part as entertaining time wasters, and not interactive works of art. when someone said "video games" people mostly pictured an 8 year old beeping along to super mario brothers.

also, there are still a lot of lazy, unimaginative developers today.

and wolfenstein 3d was a great game. it had more heart and soul and all these modern ww2 shooters and such.

[rbudrick]

3d and FPSs suck balls anyway 95% of the time. Hail platforming and 2d! Long live platforming and 2d!

-Rob

[jajaja]

Im not sick of Platforming, I'm sick of 3d games. Everything is 3d now. The only escape from NEW 3d games is basically on the DS, not including XBLA. 3d games still mean poor camera angles, some are getting better, but there are so many that are SO fucking bad it isnt funny.

Developers MAKE some new 2d games, PLEASE......

So true, every fucking game is 3d now. Bring back old games with 2d gfx. I also enjoy platformers alot :)

[cyberfluxor]

One major reason to buy a DS: Great 2D platformers and puzzlers.

The only 3D platformers I really enjoy are the ones that take place from a side view in a 2D space but 3D characters and environments.

[mailman187666]

I like both 3d and 2d. But I go nuts when a new DS castlevania comes out, and look how well New Super Mario Brothers sold, that should say something too. Valkyrie Profile 2 was a pretty good hybrid platformer/rpg. I want more 2d though.

[WiseSalesman]

On the subject of new 2D platformers, I've been away from the video gaming scene for awhile now (I take several month long breaks from gaming ... and this forum periodically) and I was wondering - has anyone played Drill Dozer (GBA)? That game looked like it was going to be a really solid platformer.

[Ed Oscuro]

Lots of love for the DS, but what about the PSP? Did everybody forget about the newest Ghouls 'n Ghosts?

[AlphaNerd01]

Lots of love for the DS, but what about the PSP? Did everybody forget about the newest Ghouls 'n Ghosts?

Someone mentioned it before I did, but yeah I think the new Ghouls 'n Ghosts is proof that 2D games are still very much alive, and can be just as great as 3D games, if not better. Sonic Rush should also be mentioned, since Sonic is in the spotlight for 3D nextgen style gaming is ruining a once great franchise.

As for the platforming elements, I enjoy them for the most part. Games that take themselves seriously are great, but I don't think that every game should be like a novel. Hell, that's a very scary thought.

So a big "hooray!" for 2D gaming. And a big "hooray!" for platforming elements, if you ask me.

[chicnstu]

Lots of love for the DS, but what about the PSP? Did everybody forget about the newest Ghouls 'n Ghosts?

Yeah, Ghouls 'N Ghosts, but not much else.

[Xizer]

While we're on the subject of genres that need to die, how about RPGs? Especially the turn based ones with random battles.

This isn't the 90s anymore. Technology isn't so primitive that you can't show enemies moving around on the screen. Travelling through fields and caves and having to fight a boring, monotonous turn based battle every few steps is not entertaining. It's annoying.

Developers need to think up a new way to level up in RPGs badly. Fighting a billion rats isn't the way to go and it never should've been in the first place.

Quite frankly the only RPGs I've ever found to be enjoyable was Super Mario RPG, the Paper Mario series, and Elder Scrolls. Those all broke out of the standard, boring random battle design.

The only other time I can stand RPGs is when I use a GameShark/Game Genie/Action Replay/CodeBreaker code to take out the random battles.

Note to developers: It's pretty sad when the people playing your game have to manipulate it with cheat devices before it becomes entertaining, not boring and monotonous.

SUMMARY: :bad-words: random battles :bad-words:

[Cryomancer]

On the subject of new 2D platformers, I've been away from the video gaming scene for awhile now (I take several month long breaks from gaming ... and this forum periodically) and I was wondering - has anyone played Drill Dozer (GBA)? That game looked like it was going to be a really solid platformer.



Solid is probably the proper word. It seems vaugely short, but it's a handheld game so maybe I shouldn't have played it for hours at a time to begin with. I'ts pretty good though, yeah. And hard in places. And the item hunting is optional too.

[pragmatic insanester]

some genres wouldn't work in 2d, though. clock tower (snes/ps1) is probably the only survival horror tower that works in that format. games like silent hill and resident evil demand 3d graphics and camera angles to function properly.

as for rpgs. the only reason i used to play rpgs is for the story, since they seemed to be the only genre that cared at the time about character development. now with our metal gears and such, we can still have action-oriented gameplay without sacrificing good writing.

[Soviet Conscript]

While we're on the subject of genres that need to die, how about RPGs? Especially the turn based ones with random battles.

This isn't the 90s anymore. Technology isn't so primitive that you can't show enemies moving around on the screen. Travelling through fields and caves and having to fight a boring, monotonous turn based battle every few steps is not entertaining. It's annoying.

Developers need to think up a new way to level up in RPGs badly. Fighting a billion rats isn't the way to go and it never should've been in the first place.

Quite frankly the only RPGs I've ever found to be enjoyable was Super Mario RPG, the Paper Mario series, and Elder Scrolls. Those all broke out of the standard, boring random battle design.

The only other time I can stand RPGs is when I use a GameShark/Game Genie/Action Replay/CodeBreaker code to take out the random battles.

Note to developers: It's pretty sad when the people playing your game have to manipulate it with cheat devices before it becomes entertaining, not boring and monotonous.

SUMMARY: :bad-words: random battles :bad-words:

*sigh* well probibly cause a good deal of people (like myself) like those kind of games. i dunno maybe were old fashioned or just plain crazy but turn based random encounter rpg's are my favorite. its not a "inferior" method, only a diffent one. like art styles, or cooking styles some people like some and dislike others. i like action rpg's as well as tactical rpgs i also think oblivion is a breath of fresh air but then afterward i like to go back inside and breath in some turn based goodness. hey, i'll be the first to admit things need to change in rpg's or at least diversify for example

1) the teenage lead hero, i'm 25 now as are alot of gamers give us a lead we can better relate to.
2) the "evil" empire though so far i'm slightly pleased with ff XII in this respect even though there is an empire that is portrayed as "evil" at least it doesn't seem all black and white.....so far.

thats just 2 things...don't want to get way off track

again maybe i'm completly nuts but i like the "grind" in leveling up. take DQ1 for example the constant leveling is a pain in the ass but at least when you beat the game you can get a sence of satisfaction that you beat something that obnoxiously tedious. take that away and don't have much. maybe its just the nostalgia i dunno......turn based/random encounters forever!

[boatofcar]

I've never been a big fan of the 3d platformer on the whole, but I think a well-executed 2d platformer in the same vein of Symphony of the Night would be a breath of fresh air to the industry.

[diskoboy]

If there is one place platforming elements don't belong, it's an FPS. That's my biggest pet peeve in the whole world.

When I hit a platforming segment in a FPS, I wanna break things.

[PDorr3]

I enjoy platformers, I enjoy finding items and such, I mean theres nothing more satisfying than finding stars in super mario 64. I also enjoy 2d platformers, however the 3d platformers are starting to grow on me, as long as the camera is managable (gives an evil eye to the new sonic the hedgehog)

[PDorr3]

I enjoy platformers, I enjoy finding items and such, I mean theres nothing more satisfying than finding stars in super mario 64. I also enjoy 2d platformers, however the 3d platformers are starting to grow on me, as long as the camera is managable (gives an evil eye to the new sonic the hedgehog)

[Emuaust]

The New Sonic? are you talking about the 360 version?
Dude where the hell you been Sonic Camera was fcked when they
went to Sonic Adventure 7 years ago, not really new ;)

[Snapple]

I think there have been great 3D games. There's nothing inherent about moving in three dimensions that makes it automatically inferior to 2D games. It can be good or bad, just like anything else.

The one series that I think was really ruined by platforming was Starfox. Not only did I not enjoy the all-platforming Starfox, but when they teased us by giving us a current-gen Starfox game with flying inserted back in it, then later we discover that the majority of the game is still plaforming. Very lame.

[eightbitonline]

i notice in games like Ninja Gaiden (xbox) that its not a hard boss or difficult array of enemies that keep me stuck for hours at a time - NO - its a fucking multi-angled jump with a timer ticking down! it seems that game developers are too uncreative to make a fun but understably hard battle or though provoking puzzle! no, in order to pump up the rental fees and your power bills, they stick in inane and pointless platforming elements!

I don't entirely disagree with your sentiment, but this part makes me laugh out loud. did you ever play ninja gaiden (1, 2, or 3) for the NES? Despite being a platformer it has the exact same problem: the challenge lies in timing your jumps/strikes because of the platfrom positioning combined with enemy placement. Save for the final bosses the boss battles are rather pedestrian. Ninja Gaiden has always had that problem, long before it went 3D.

To hear anyone saying they want no-frills FPS action with no adventure-game elements is really weird, considering I thought the genre went stale more than a decade ago.

I think it's not so much a matter of what elements of what genre are added, but how well they're integrated. It sounds like your original complaint is that platforming elements are most annoying when they're poorly integrated, and inserted awkwardly with the otherwise balls-to-the-wall action. i think Metroid Prime is a (pardon the pun) prime example of a terrific integration of everything that's good about a lot of different genres (FPS and platforming most heavily included) if you've played Metroid Prime or Echoes you'll see that platforming in FPS games can be done, and done well.

[jcalder8]

I don't mind 3D platforming as long as its called for. Tomb Raider for example needs this because she is going through ruins and some of the stairs should have collapsed by now. But if it is just added to make the game last longer or if it isn't implemented well I can't stand it.

[FantasiaWHT]

While we're on the subject of genres that need to die, how about FPS? Especially the ones where you have to shoot at enemies.

This isn't the 90s anymore. Technology isn't so primitive that you can't show enemies dieing without having to shoot them. Travelling through warehouses and caves and having to shoot boring, monotonous guys with guns every few steps is not entertaining. It's annoying.

Developers need to think up a new way to kill enemies in FPSs badly. Shooting a billion soldiers isn't the way to go and it never should've been in the first place.

Quite frankly the only FPS's I've ever found to be enjoyable was Deus ex, where you could avoid having to shoot enemies a lot of the time.

The only other time I can stand FPSs is when I use a GameShark/Game Genie/Action Replay/CodeBreaker code to make myself invincible so I can run through without shooting most of the enemies.

Note to developers: It's pretty sad when the people playing your game have to manipulate it with cheat devices before it becomes entertaining, not boring and monotonous.

[FantasiaWHT]

Ahhh why make a point when Penny Arcade can make it better

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/09/05

[WiseSalesman]

Well, chalk FantasiaWHT up as "missed the point entirely".

[swlovinist]

I am older and outdated. The games I like are getting harder to find. I prefer 2D games becasue that is what I grew up with. I enjoy new games as well, but playing some of the old franshises in 3D(castlevania and sonic) does not feel right. I speak with my wallet when something good comes out. I normally dont buy a new game, but I could not resist the new DS castlevania, it is that good. As for the sonic games coming out...I am also speaking with my wallet and not buying them. I think that there is a market for 2D games, and some franchises work better in that format. As for 3D platform games, I would gladly buy another Maximo, Super Mario, or even Death Jr if the game is fun. When it comes down to it, if the game is fun, then that is all that matters. Some of us such as myself...like to go down memory lane in 2D because that is what we grew up with. There is something to be said about positive childhood memories...they cannot be replaced or duplicated.

[RegSNES]

Some of my fav platformers have been in 3D: Super Mario 64, Ape Escape.

As for all tthe collecting, I blae Banjo-Kazooie. I did enjoy the bear and bird's first adventure but when I played Donkey Kong 64 where it was "collect all this crap times 10" I had more than enough. Why should anyone have to collect 50 different freaking things as 5 seperate characters just to pass a world? Screw that garbage.

I love me some 2D games but unfortunatly, the hardcore crowd is in the minority and the casual gamer is in the majority. Developers tend to make more 3D games because these are more likely to get the attention of the casual player.

That being said, 2D > 3D. I applaud developers that are still keeping two demensions alive.

[Xizer]

Donkey Kong 64 still ranks up there as one of the best platformers of all time.

It was massive! There were so many places to explore, and things to do. The collecting wasn't tedious either, it simply gave you a reason to actually scope out the levels. It had 50+ hours of gameplay; very impressive.

Psychonauts is another great 3D platformer. Conker's Bad Fur Day is also very memorable. I think 3D platformers are just as good as their 2D counterparts, if not better.

[dbiersdorf]

The platformer genre is the greatest genre of them all. It's a shame that we've seen a huge decline over the years, but so long as we have games like Mario, and the upcoming Banjo-Threeie it will never die.