Why so much N64 hate?

[Push Upstairs]

I also do not agree with the "3D" theory. I didn't really dislike the N64 until i worked with/played one in 2003, long after it and the PSX were released.

I doubt (in my case) that "anti-3D" feelings led to my overwhelming disappointment. Lost 3rd party support and wasted potential are more like it.



Who the hell cares if the majority of the system was carried by Nintendo and Rare? Each created some of the greatest games of all time.

Couldn't find 20 games not made by Nintendo/Rare and that were just as good as what they put out?

[jajaja]

Cartridges too expensive? I don't know about where you guys live, but I can find just about any game I want for $5-10.

I think all ment when the games were new in store. Compared to PSX the N64 was crazy expencive, atleast here.

[Snapple]

What jajaja said. The used, tne-year-old cartridges are cheap now, but they were way more expensive than CDs when they were brand new.

[Abman]

I grew up with the Nintendo 64, and it's a system I still enjoy playing from time to time today. But the problem is there just weren't enough good games looking back on it now. I mean I love games like Paper Mario, Super Mario 64, and Conker's Bad Fur Day. But there just wasn't enough greats. Very few RPGs and beat em' ups were produced, which happen to be two of my favorite genres. I also eventually started to dislike collect-a-thon platformers since so many were released on the Nintendo 64.

I have no problem firing up my N64 for a round of Paper Mario or Mario Party, but I really have no interest in collecting for it, and I prefer both the Saturn and Playstation over it nowadays.

It would have been great how ever if companies like Square wouldn't have jumped on the Playstation bandwagon. But who can really blame them, Nintendo really had nothing to show for the 64 when the Playstation was released.

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

What jajaja said. The used, tne-year-old cartridges are cheap now, but they were way more expensive than CDs when they were brand new.
That was entirely my point. This topic is about how people feel about the N64 *NOW* not what they thought ten years ago. It makes no sense at all to base your current opinion of the system on criticisms from a decade ago that are no longer true.

I don't buy the argument that CDs are just a better format for games than cartridge, either. How exactly would N64 games have been better if they were on CDs? The only real arguable advantage I can see to having games on CD is that they can have redbook audio. Of course some people think redbook audio and orchestral soundtracks and crap like that is just the bee's knees, but chiptunes will always sound better to me personally and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way, so CD music is hardly a trump card. The only other thing having N64 games on CD would have meant lots of pre-rendered video, which I hardly think is an advantage. It might impressive grafix kiddie, but it adds nothing to the gameplay and in most cases actually detracts from it.


Trust me N64 fans, there is a reason its library does not satisfy certain folks. It's not an intangible feeling, it's a quantifiable fact: N64 is missing entire genres of gameplay. Whether or not that matters to you is another story.
I can certianly see why the N64 library wouldn't satisfy certain people, that's no mystery toi me or anyone else here, I'm sure. The question was why do people seem to have an active dislike for the system. The fact that there's no good RPGs for it wouldn't explain that in my opinion.

Anyway, here's my list of 20 good N64 games not made by Nintendo or Rare:

Goemon's Great Adventure and Mystical Ninja Goemon
Space Station Silicon Valley
Body Harvest
San Francisco Rush, Rush 2 and Sf Rush 2049
Cruis'n series
Multi Racing Championship
Micro Machines 64
Top Gear Rally 1 and 2
(I could go on with more racers here)
Star Wars Rogue Squadron, Battle for Naboo and maybe Shadows of Empire
Indiana Jones and Infernal Machine
Castlevania and Legacy of Darkness
Harvest Moon 64
Ogre Battle 64
Star Soldier
Hybrid Heaven
Rayman 2
Ready 2 Rumble
Vigilante 8 and Second Offence
Snowboard Kids (not as good as 1080, though)
Tony Hawk series

And justy because I don't think it makes sense to exclude import games from the list (the N64 doesn't even have a lockout chip), here's 10 import games that every N64 owner should have, too:

Custom Robo V1 or V2
Bangaioh (even if you have the DC version, this is different ebough that you should get it)
Sin & Punishment
Dezaemon 3D
Tetris 64 (with pulse rate monitor!)
Irritating Stick
Powerful Pro Baseball series

All of those are fully enjoyable without knowledge of Japanese, but here's three more for people who know some Japanese or who have experience playing through Japanese games:

Wonder Project J2
Nushi Tsuri
Doubutsu no Mori

All that without even getting into Nintendo's or Rare's games, which I'll happily admit are the best games on the system. When you consider how small the N64's library is overall compared to super-popular systems like the NES or Playstation, I think you'll have to admit that N64 has a surprisingly good game quality ratio.

By the way, all this defense of the N64 is coming from someone who never even owned one until 2001 or so. Back in the mid to late-'90s the only systems I was playing were the Sega Master System and Atari 2600, I missed the 32-bit generation entirely and only later did I go back and check them out after I got my Dreamcast and got into more modern games. Maybe that's why I can judge it more objectively.


...word is bondage...

[8-bitNesMan]

Basically the Nintendo boys are just jealous that it is Sony now who has the worlds most (best) selling console, not Nintendo.

The PS2 may be the top-selling console, but the DS is the top-selling system!
Them old boys are doing something right...

[cityside75]

How exactly would N64 games have been better if they were on CDs? The only real arguable advantage I can see to having games on CD is that they can have redbook audio. Of course some people think redbook audio and orchestral soundtracks and crap like that is just the bee's knees, but chiptunes will always sound better to me personally and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way, so CD music is hardly a trump card. The only other thing having N64 games on CD would have meant lots of pre-rendered video, which I hardly think is an advantage. It might impressive grafix kiddie, but it adds nothing to the gameplay and in most cases actually detracts from it.

While I personally like the N64 I have to disagree with this assertion. CD's meant readily available storage for graphic assets such as textures. We all remember how many early and lower budget titles had lots of repeating textures (Shadows of the Empire anyone?) that would have been easily addressed if the developers had more space.

Sure, some developers and Nintendo could splurge for the bigger cart sizes to offset this, but it represented a big expense for them, and it was often passed on to the consumer.

[chicnstu]

Couldn't find 20 games not made by Nintendo/Rare and that were just as good as what they put out?

1. Beetle Adventure Racing
2. Rayman 2: The Great Escape
3. Resident Evil 2
4. Space Station Silicon Valley
5. Turok
6. WipeOut
7. Duke Nukem
8. Star Wars: Rogue Squadron
9. Ogre Battle
10. Harvest Moon
11. Ridge Racer
12. Extreme-G
13. Worms Armageddon
14. Vigilante 8
15. San Francisco Rush
16. Rocket: Robot on Wheels
17. The World is not Enough
18. Spider-Man
19. Bust-A-Move 2 Arcade Edition
20. Goemon's Great Adventure
21. Wetrix
22. Command and Conquer
23. Army Men: Air Combat (One of the higher rated Army Men games)
24. StarCraft
25. Fighter's Destiny
26. Micro Machines (this actually got good reviews)
27. BattleTanx
28. Quake
29. Star Wars: Episode I: Racer (I don't think this counts as a series compared to the other Star Wars game on this list)
30. Cruis'n series
31. Body Harvest
32. Forsaken
33. Winnie the Pooh: Tigger's Honey Hunt (yes, this is good)
34. Killer Instinct
35. Snowboard Kids
36. Shadow Man
37. Mischief Makers
38. Stunt Racer
39. Nuclear Strike
40. Buck Bumble
41. S.C.A.R.S.
42. Gauntlet Legends
43. Glover
44. Hot Wheels: Turbo Racing (Actually good, I used to play this a LOT)
45. Paperboy
46. Gex (I enjoyed this series)

I didn't count sports games, Tony Hawk games, or wrestling games.

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

While I personally like the N64 I have to disagree with this assertion. CD's meant readily available storage for graphic assets such as textures. We all remember how many early and lower budget titles had lots of repeating textures (Shadows of the Empire anyone?) that would have been easily addressed if the developers had more space.

Sure, some developers and Nintendo could splurge for the bigger cart sizes to offset this, but it represented a big expense for them, and it was often passed on to the consumer.
I've seen plenty of boring and repetative textures on CD based systems, too. Textures don't take up much cart space, so there's plenty of room for them on cart games even without going into huge cartridges. Plenty of 128 and 256Mb N64 games have excellent texturing. Maybe it just takes a more creative developer to do it. Shadows of the Empire is a good example of that, in fact, because you can compare it's visuals to the amazing job Factor 5 did with their two Star Wars games on the N64.

So maybe the problem is that cartridges require better developers, but that's okay with me. I think we need better developers in video games anyway. Too many of them are lazy and unimaginative. Maybe they got that way from years of developing for CD-based systems, eh?


...word is bondage...

[chicnstu]

I think we need better developers in video games anyway. Too many of them are lazy and unimaginative.

So. Freaking. True.

Most of them now are ONLY in it for the money. I want developers to enjoy making them like Nintendo, Epic, Silicon Knights, Krome, etc.

[Push Upstairs]

So maybe the problem is that cartridges require better developers, but that's okay with me. I think we need better developers in video games anyway. Too many of them are lazy and unimaginative. Maybe they got that way from years of developing for CD-based systems, eh?

Please.

There were plenty of shitty & unimaginative games for cart based systems too.

[Emuaust]

you see this is what I was getting at, with all the PSX hate here why cant I call
all thoose people Fanboy's?

Simple becuase the you like what you like, I hate N64, you hate PSX, yet you call me
a fanboy and dont look at youself, FFS, reread my posts carefully, everyone can see that.


IMO though the 64 has a very limited amount of titles compared to the PSX,
for the games I like anyway, Fighters, 3d platformers, racing games and Rpg's.
These might not be your genre's, you might like the more multiplayer offerings of the
64, doesnt make you or me a fanboy unless there is blind one sided ramblings.

CRAP POSTS IN THIS THREAD END HERE______________________________________

[Richter Belmount]

I tried looking up some import titles for the systerm , not to impressed ... I mostly saw golfing and fishing titles for the n64 imports.

[fishsandwich]

I still like my N64. I still fire it up once in a while. The graphics don't bother me much. Star Wars Racer, F-Zero, Ogre Battle, and especially Sin & Punishment still get me going. And Hydro Thunder. And Rayman 2. And Virtual Pro Wrestling 2. Damn, I forgot how many N64 games I still enjoy.

My 6 year old nephew is crazy about the thing. I gave him one for his birthday a while back... he's too young to mess with a CD system. It was nice to pass the torch to a younger generation. I bet he grows up to collect for the N64!

My sister has taken away all more violent games and left him with Mario Party 3 and Rayman 2. She even took away his Smash Brothers! Oh, well. I'm giving him Kirby and Mario Party 2 for Christmas.

Anyone notice that loose carts of Smash Brothers and any Mario game still cost over $20? A game store near me had Yoshi's Story (loose) for $29, citing its popularity and "rarity." Tools.

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

Please.

There were plenty of shitty & unimaginative games for cart based systems too.
I was kidding. I suppose I should have used an "emoticon" to indicate that, but I fucking hate those things with an unsurpassed passion. I assumed it would be obvious that I wasn't really blaming the CD format for the low quality of video games, but maybe not.


I tried looking up some import titles for the systerm , not to impressed ... I mostly saw golfing and fishing titles for the n64 imports.
The vast majority of imports for any system are going to be of little interest to most people (more often casino and mahjong games than golf and fishing actually). Looking for interesting imports on the N64, I would recommend starting with the titles I mentioned in my last post, there might be a few more you'd like, but those are the best in my opinion. If you don't mind playing through a heavy story game in Japanese, Wonder Project J2 is really really cool.


...word is bondage...

[sabre2922]

I was kidding. I suppose I should have used an "emoticon" to indicate that, but I fucking hate those things with an unsurpassed passion. I assumed it would be obvious that I wasn't really blaming the CD format for the low quality of video games, but maybe not.


In all respect sweater fish deluxe you seem blinded by this complete hatred of anything CD based.

The fact is that the N64 NEEDED a CD drive to reach its full potential and the decision to stay with the -even then- outdated cartridge format kept MANY AAA third party titles from being produced and developed exclusively for the N64 not the least of wich were FINAL FANTASY and METAL GEAR SOLID 1 wich both originally started out as a N64 exclusive title.

The unsaid truth is this: BOTH of those games went the way of Playstation AFTER Nintendo announced its intensions of making the N64 cartridge based.

Im not biased to CDs hell I grew up on Atari,colecovision and NES so IF anything I should have been right inline with all the other fanboys that were hating on CDs during that transition period of the mid 90's but I wasnt.

the first cd based system I had was the 3DO so that was not a good start but after the Saturn and the Playstation I was amazed at what CD based games could accomplish and provide over cartridge when put into the capable hands of developers like Konami,Capcom and Square.

[Single Player Gamer]

I enjoyed my N-64 and my PSX. I fall more into the camp of liking games as opposed to consoles. I'm willing to deal with different control schemes and whatnot for a good game. I repurchased an N-64 for like 25 bucks and then bought some games for about 50 bucks. The games were WCW v NWO, Mario Kart, Zelda OoT, Conker and Body Harvest. For less than 100 bucks I am totally satisfied with my purchase. Any system I can pick up for under 50 bucks that has at least 3 good games makes it worth while to me. Maybe it wasnt the best back in the day and it might not be the best console now but I can hardly hate this system.

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

In all respect sweater fish deluxe you seem blinded by this complete hatred of anything CD based.
What?!

I said I was kidding. What more do you want from me? How can I atone for my slip of the tongue?

I have no hatred of CD games. Try to believe me. I mean, isn't that a sort of insane suggestion? Who the hell actually hates an entire medium? If I'd known people could take me seriously, I wouldn't have said anything at all. I was kidding. I'm sorry. It won't happen again.

I don't even think this is the right direction for this discussion to be taking anyway. The N64 isn't the Playstation. The Playstation isn't the N64. Shouldn't we be glad that they're different systems? The N64 had games the Playstation didn't have and the Playstation had games the N64 didn't have. That's a good situation for gamers. I'm certainly glad the two systems had different capabilities. It makes things more interesting.

Arguing about whether the N64 could have handled this or that Playstation game and which one was "better" only proves my suspicion that people's feelings about the systems are still too caught up in the marketing war between them even after all these years. Maybe in another 10 years it'll be more possible for people to judge the systems on their own merits.


...word is bondage...

[jajaja]

The PS2 may be the top-selling console, but the DS is the top-selling system!
Them old boys are doing something right...

I doubt DS have sold over 100 million units already. According to Wikipedia its like 27 million units, but thats like 3 months ago. Probly around 30-35 million sold units now.

[chicnstu]

I doubt DS have sold over 100 million units already. According to Wikipedia its like 27 million units, but thats like 3 months ago. Probly around 30-35 million sold units now.

I guess they meant top selling right now.

Top selling instead of top sold.

[Push Upstairs]

I was kidding. I suppose I should have used an "emoticon" to indicate that, but I fucking hate those things with an unsurpassed passion. I assumed it would be obvious that I wasn't really blaming the CD format for the low quality of video games, but maybe not.

I myself am unsure of where the list of "emoticons" are at.

Aside from typing them out like this ;) :D :) there is no real list (that i can find).

[jajaja]

I guess they meant top selling right now.

Top selling instead of top sold.

Ah yes, that might be true :)

[NinjaJoey23]

There are some pretty good games on that non-Rare/Nintendo list...

My girlfriend loves the N64, so I play it often. Sure, it has its problems, but we enjoy it. That joystick is the bane of my existence...

"Hey, babe, try not to pop the joystick."

[fishsandwich]

I tried looking up some import titles for the systerm , not to impressed ... I mostly saw golfing and fishing titles for the n64 imports.

You need to look harder. There are some VERY good imports for the N64. It's not a Saturn, PS1, or SNES when it comes to great imports but it has some awesome (or at least entertaining) choices.


Sin & Punishment- One of the best games ever made for the N64. Period.

Bakuretu Muteki Bangaioh- Better than the Dreamcast port in some important gameplay respects

Virtual Pro Wrestling 2- The BEST wresting game the N64, even better than the US titles

Rukakids- Whimsical 2-D fighting game from Konami. Great fun.

Custom Robo V1 & V2- Better than the Gamecube sequel

Last Legion UX- Pretty good Virtual On clone

Dezaemon 3D- 3 complete shmups PLUS the (hard) ability to make your own shooters.

Doreamon 1, 2, & 3- OK, these are mostly shite Mario 64 clones but #3 is pretty good.

Air Boarder 64- Not so great but it's certainly playable and was listed on US release lists for YEARS as Air Boardin' USA or something.

Uchhannanchan no Honoo Challenge: Denryuu IraIra Bou- Known as Irritating Stick on the PS1 but it's much better on the N64 due to the controller.

[poieo]

Might as well start off with a bang.


Huh? The dual shock d-pad is fine, you will find no such universal agreement. It's definitely not my first choice, but I would actually play technical games on it (fighters, shooters). No fighting fan would dare play a fighter with that chunk of rigid plastic on the 64, but that's a bit unfair since there were no good fighters on the 64 (one of many genres completely missing on the 64; Because again, there were ONLY Nintendo made games, and they don't even do most genres)

The dualshock pad sucked, as it was every bit as rigid as the N64 one. The fact of the matter there is that both Sony and Nintendo boned the deal with their pads; the Saturn D-pad was clearly the only one worth anything for fighting games.


And N64 d-pad vs. Cube is kind of a retard fight. I wouldn't want to be stuck playing a non-analog game on either of them. Let's just say that your comment about d-pad placement is ironic when we're discussing a controller that forced you to move your left hand to an entirely different prong to access it. The Tri-prong setup of the N64 was proven completely pointless when no game actually used the d-pad/analog stick combo that was intended when it was announced... and the dual analog sticks on Sony's analog pad completely co-opted dual control function in a more logical layout that still allows access to right-hand buttons. There's a reason both Microsoft and Nintendo copied the dual analog layout.

It's a HUGE retard fight, and the GameCube pad is more vestigial than anything. However, the mitigating factor for the N64 controller is that everyone was just getting into the whole 3d world paradigm, for which analog is the only suitable control method. Sony themselves got taken a bit by surprise on this as is evidenced by how long it took them to come out with an analog controller, and even after they did it was still not standard. The tri-prong setup of the N64 pad was proven pointless, but that's the thing -- it had to be proven pointless during that generation before everyone caught on.

Actually, what's ironic is that now everyone has moved on except for Sony, who's still beating the dead horse of the overall terrible design of the Dualshock with this Sixaxis bullshit.


Of course people don't usually play that many titles. But only 20 titles from one developer does not provide for any variety. Nintendo gives you platformers, they give you adventures, they give you party titles..... nothing else. If I want one RPG: can't find it on N64. If I want one fighter: can't find it on N64. Hell, if I want one Metroid game: Can't find it on N64!!

A bunch of crap titles doesn't really provide much variety either. Despite being the hardest of hardcore gamers i never really got caught up in console favoritism, so i don't have much ego invested in it all. For that, i tend to think of it as percentages as opposed to hard numbers. That is, the higher number of total games means you're going to have a higher ratio of crap to good games, which i think someone already mentioned. Conversely, i think the N64 ultimately had the same ratio of good to bad, with things evening out in that way.


Basically, look at PS2s library: That's what was expected of Nintendo at the time. They did not deliver. Gamecube wasn't exactly a return to form, but it did correct many N64 mistakes (lack of mature games, RPGs, third party games, Metroid).... this leaves N64 as a black sheep. A console which provided the core Nintendo hits (except Metroid), some Rare surprises, and nothing else. Dreamcast has a library that rivals it, despite being alive for 2 years and then killed off. DS has a much larger and diverse library already........ N64 has a small potatoes library in the grand scheme of things. And no, you really shouldn't be satisfied by an all-Nintendo library unless you're a kid or a fanboy. (and you're talking to a huge Nintendo fan by the way)

That comparison actually makes the Dreamcast look bad, not good. The Dreamcast had hardware that was not only good, but easier to program for than the N64, and Sega also did not alienate developers like Nintendo did during the NES-SNES eras. That basically means it had everything going for it over Nintendo, yet still could only rival the N64. That speaks of the massive mismanagement going on at Sega more than anything else.

Other than that, i'm so sick of hearing this "mature game" bullshit. TODAY'S systems don't have many mature games. What we've always had is what you had back then: a teenager's highly suspect and completely laughable notion of maturity. It's never been videogames that needed to grow up, it's always been the GAMERS.


No one disses the N64 because of 3D. That's really not it. I might as well say that PSX's success was because of 3D. I think it's a non-factor.

Pretty much. Actually, i'll go so far as to say that the PSX was a success despite 3D. While researching my current project, i've noticed a clear split in the quality of graphics in the transition from 2D to 3D. When you think of tiles and textures as being completely similar, the PSX era textures were sent way back to the stone age.


The main issue really is that PlayStation scooped all of Nintendo's third party support. The true successor to the NES and SNES was the PS1, in everything except for Nintendo's titles. At the time, I felt sorry for people who bought a 64 looking for the next version of the SNES. I didn't think they "got the memo". I knew that it was for Mario, Zelda and StarFox only, and whatever new they would come up with during that generation. (at the time that didn't just mean Rare games..... but frankly, tons of crappy motocross and wrestling games). The rest of the NES and SNES legacy had clearly moved on to PlayStation.

I don't think anyone cared about "getting the memo", or was even aware of one. My perspective of that era was that everyone was dazzled by the "Holy Shit!" factor of the possibilities that all 3 systems provided. Most of us back then were not very aware of the behind-the-scenes factors that are common knowledge now thanks to the internet.


On a separate but related point, I just played Treasure/Nintendo's "Sin and Punishment" import for N64 recently. If they had released games like this in North America, there would be almost nothing to bitch about.

Trust me N64 fans, there is a reason its library does not satisfy certain folks. It's not an intangible feeling, it's a quantifiable fact: N64 is missing entire genres of gameplay. Whether or not that matters to you is another story.

It has most genres, save for FF-style RPGs i think. It even had its share of crappy 3D fighters, just like the PSX did. It just didn't have Capcom and its -- irony of ironies -- 2D Street Fighter variants.

I think there's little to bitch about either way, this far removed from that generation of consoles. You can pick up either system and their games for usually pretty cheap. Emulation for both is slowly but steadily coming up to par too. It's just ceased to be an issue on the whole, if it ever was one, and i personally find more reason to take sides NOW -- for the first time in 20 years -- with the situation being that all current players should know their shit.


While I personally like the N64 I have to disagree with this assertion. CD's meant readily available storage for graphic assets such as textures. We all remember how many early and lower budget titles had lots of repeating textures (Shadows of the Empire anyone?) that would have been easily addressed if the developers had more space.

Sure, some developers and Nintendo could splurge for the bigger cart sizes to offset this, but it represented a big expense for them, and it was often passed on to the consumer.

The cart size didn't matter that much. What the PSX offered in storage size, it severely lacked in how much you could access at one time with the paltry 2mb of RAM and 1x CDROM drive. While developers could do some really cool things with compression on the cart, like with the N64 version of Resident Evil 2, there was nothing they could really do about that particular limitation of the PSX. With the N64 having more RAM, no CD access time, and being the clearly more powerful system, i'm not even sure they had the same options for compression with PSX games.

[sabre2922]

Hello there my new friend hate that we have to start off this way but here goes.




The dualshock pad sucked, as it was every bit as rigid as the N64 one. The fact of the matter there is that both Sony and Nintendo boned the deal with their pads; the Saturn D-pad was clearly the only one worth anything for fighting games.

Wrong: the daulshock d-pad was good enough for traditional 2-D fighters and the N64s was completely unworkable for the same games.
I do agree with you that the Saturns D-pad was far superior and great for 2-D fighters.



That comparison actually makes the Dreamcast look bad, not good. The Dreamcast had hardware that was not only good, but easier to program for than the N64, and Sega also did not alienate developers like Nintendo did during the NES-SNES eras. That basically means it had everything going for it over Nintendo, yet still could only rival the N64. That speaks of the massive mismanagement going on at Sega more than anything else.

agreed





Other than that, i'm so sick of hearing this "mature game" bullshit. TODAY'S systems don't have many mature games. What we've always had is what you had back then: a teenager's highly suspect and completely laughable notion of maturity. It's never been videogames that needed to grow up, it's always been the GAMERS.

This is SOOO wrong in SOOO many ways.

first and foremost there are MANY MATURE games that should not be played by younger gamers but of course they are.

second, videogames have evolved from what was looked upon by many for decades as a small-geek enthusiast hobby to the multiBILLIONDOLLAR industry that it is today the gamers have "grown up" and the industry as a whole is HUGE (maybe too much soo) So I completely disagree with you in every way that WE the GAMERS "need to grow up".
The fact is that both the Xbox360 and Playstation 3 are geared toward gamers that are between the ages of 18-35 and the average age for hardcore gamers is around 33 years old.




Pretty much. Actually, i'll go so far as to say that the PSX was a success despite 3D. While researching my current project, i've noticed a clear split in the quality of graphics in the transition from 2D to 3D. When you think of tiles and textures as being completely similar, the PSX era textures were sent way back to the stone age.

This statement just doesnt hold water either way you spin it man.

If you are comparing the 2-D capabilities of the N64 and Playstation one then there really is no comparison the fact is that the N64 could do decent 2-D but was only slightly more powerful 2-D than the SNES.
The Playstation was far outclassed as far as 2-D capabilities when compared to say the SATURN but the N64 had VERY LIMITED 2-D capabilities it simply wasnt designed for those type of games.




I don't think anyone cared about "getting the memo", or was even aware of one. My perspective of that era was that everyone was dazzled by the "Holy Shit!" factor of the possibilities that all 3 systems provided. Most of us back then were not very aware of the behind-the-scenes factors that are common knowledge now thanks to the internet.

Speak for yourself! "back in the day" I read GAMEFAN magazine and that was just about all the INTERNET type of info I needed.
If any gamer bothered to read more than Nintendo power before the internet days then they still had were VERY AWARE of the behind-the-scenes factors and goings ons.



The cart size didn't matter that much. What the PSX offered in storage size, it severely lacked in how much you could access at one time with the paltry 2mb of RAM and 1x CDROM drive. While developers could do some really cool things with compression on the cart, like with the N64 version of Resident Evil 2, there was nothing they could really do about that particular limitation of the PSX. With the N64 having more RAM, no CD access time, and being the clearly more powerful system, i'm not even sure they had the same options for compression with PSX games.

So wrong for soooo long.

As I have stated too many times before the cartridge format practically crippled what the N64 was originally capable of in just about every imaginable way. See one of my above posts as to the old cartridge vs. cd argument if anyone even cares anymore lol.

BTW dont EVEN try the old RE2 on N64 bullcrap the N64 version of RE2 was sooo freaking compressed and was basically an engineering MIRACLE. Many programmers and developers have stated that fact many times over in the years since then.

[Leo_A]

I doubt the 64 was that weak in the 2d department, developers just never pushed it very far.

[Xizer]

I myself am unsure of where the list of "emoticons" are at.

Aside from typing them out like this ;) :D :) there is no real list (that i can find).

User CP -> Edit Options -> Miscellaneous Options -> Message Editor Interface -> Enhanced Interface -> Full WYSIWYG Editing -> Save Changes

:rocker:

[Nature Boy]

I loved the system when it was new. But it's aged *horribly* in my eyes. I'll go back and play PS1 games, but I never use my N64 anymore.

I actually fired up the Master Quest on my GC this week, and the better graphics an controller totally reminded me of this fact. The N64 is to the SNES as the Saturn is to the Genesis in my eyes. Why touch it when I've got something *way* better?

[BocoDragon]

That comparison actually makes the Dreamcast look bad, not good. The Dreamcast had hardware that was not only good, but easier to program for than the N64, and Sega also did not alienate developers like Nintendo did during the NES-SNES eras. That basically means it had everything going for it over Nintendo, yet still could only rival the N64. That speaks of the massive mismanagement going on at Sega more than anything else.

I disagree. Two years of Sega, the struggling underdog, practically equalling 5+ years of Nintendo, the until then undisputed king? The Dreamcast library was a miracle. It definitely doesn't haven't anything along the likes of Mario 64 or the Zeldas, but its secondary library: Jet Set Radio, Skies of Arcadia, Crazy Taxi, etc. handily destroys all the Killer Instinct Golds, Wave Races and Blast Corps of N64s library.

Dreamcast died because of crippling PlayStation 2 hype (basically a vote of popular confidence in PlayStation 1). If Sega had not been in prior financial trouble, I'm sure they would have kept the DC afloat (Microsoft/Xbox style). Had that happened I believe its library would trump the N64 tenfold. As it stands it is almost equal. Pretty impressive for a two year old failed console. I do believe it reflects worse on N64.


Other than that, i'm so sick of hearing this "mature game" bullshit. TODAY'S systems don't have many mature games. What we've always had is what you had back then: a teenager's highly suspect and completely laughable notion of maturity. It's never been videogames that needed to grow up, it's always been the GAMERS.

I agree with you, in principle, about "mature games" being mostly teenager fantasies. But we are talking about a time when a "mature game" meant you were playing as a ninja in a sidescroller instead of as a little boy.

In the day, we didn't have women in videogames (the stir caused by Tomb Raider is embarassing today), we didn't have licensed music in games (Rock n Roll Racing notwithstanding), we didn't have skateboarding/snowboarding, few anime inspired games, few RPGs had gone beyond a Dragon Quest setting aside from the Squaresoft gems of SNES.... and swearing, religious icons, pseudo-philosophy: All the things that would today be referenced on some saturday morning anime for pre-teens, they hadn't yet been seen in videogames.

THIS is what I mean by "mature games". Sony, with its CD format and desire to go after the aging-teenager-that-had-grown-up-on-NES/SNES/Gen market (as opposed to just families and young kids) was eager to smash taboos that Nintendo wasn't, by courting these types of games for PlayStation. N64 had nothing of the sort except for GoldenEye (maybe 1080 snowboarding or something like..... I dunno... Shadowman).

Now that all this stuff is commonplace, it no longer looks mature. Compared to what had come before, though, even a game starring a girl with big tits would seem radical. But Nintendo, alone, would never even push the envelope like this. It was all about Mario in 3D, Zelda in 3D, StarFox in 3D, Donkey Kong in 3D....

Again, my thesis was that only fanboys and kids (and maybe a third catagory: the casual gamer) would love the 64: Who would be talking about Mario or Donkey Kong in 3D? Fanboys; kids. I actually love these types of retro revivals now that I'm a long-time gamer (okay, so I'm a fanboy now), but in the day, what got high schools talking wasn't Donkey Kong 64. It was snowboarding games. Games where you played as a vampire. Games where you fought each other in martial arts battles. Anime plot RPGs....

Yes, they would talk about GoldenEye, and it is a strong exception. Yeah, schools loved that one. I moved from the city to a small town around that era, and lo and behold: instead of everyone owning PS1s, they owned N64s. Their steak was GoldenEye, and their dessert were games like Shadowman, THQ wrestling and motocross games. I wouldn't think that one mature FPS and a handful of crappy secondary titles was enough to enjoy a console, but I see it today in some of my Xbox owning friends.... Halo + forgettable secondary titles = their undying love. (they ignore everything I would like about Xbox) To each their own.


I don't think anyone cared about "getting the memo", or was even aware of one. My perspective of that era was that everyone was dazzled by the "Holy Shit!" factor of the possibilities that all 3 systems provided. Most of us back then were not very aware of the behind-the-scenes factors that are common knowledge now thanks to the internet.

But isn't that exactly my point? Those who didn't care enough to compare the N64 against other consoles thought it was good enough. Those who just played games, but weren't enthusiasts, were perfectly likely to be happy with just the 64. (casuals, kids, and enthuiastic but narrowminded fanboys)

I have friends who claim today that PS2 vs. Xbox is a fair fight. They're both comparable machines that they've played a handful of titles on... it's all the same to them. But I know that if I was trapped on a desert island with a choice between the entire library of either of these two consoles, it would be a choice between 200 excellent games or 20 excellent games. It would be the same choice between PlayStation 1 and N64.

Both are good, one is better (in quantity of good games). I would have to jettison knowlege of the gaming world to make a call otherwise.

And I felt this way back then, by the way. It wasn't pre-internet fandom: It was at the dawn of it, actually, and the word on the lips of the net was thus: PlayStation.

I would always support N64 as the "second console" of the day.... but a main contender? No.

[poieo]

Hello there my new friend hate that we have to start off this way but here goes.

I don't really mind.


Wrong: the daulshock d-pad was good enough for traditional 2-D fighters and the N64s was completely unworkable for the same games.
I do agree with you that the Saturns D-pad was far superior and great for 2-D fighters.

I think the N64 pad actually beat out the dualshock pad for the simple fact that it was an actual cross instead of having that separation like Sony's pads. What the N64 didn't have was a good Capcom or Namco fighter to use it with. It's hard to really see how it did when the only things to test it with are Midway crapfests that surely have shit controls on their own.


This is SOOO wrong in SOOO many ways.

first and foremost there are MANY MATURE games that should not be played by younger gamers but of course they are.

second, videogames have evolved from what was looked upon by many for decades as a small-geek enthusiast hobby to the multiBILLIONDOLLAR industry that it is today the gamers have "grown up" and the industry as a whole is HUGE (maybe too much soo) So I completely disagree with you in every way that WE the GAMERS "need to grow up".
The fact is that both the Xbox360 and Playstation 3 are geared toward gamers that are between the ages of 18-35 and the average age for hardcore gamers is around 33 years old.

Videogames haven't evolved at all on that count. If you look at every single aspect (development practices, advertising, variety and quality of games and gameplay), the industry has gotten bigger but has NOT matured very much at all. E3 was not a display of maturity, and if you want to really see how most people look at games all you have to do is watch abominable crap like the SpikeTV Videogame Awards. That is the pathetic standard of "maturity" most people hold; mediocre WW2 games, the juvenile toilet humor of the GTA series, and glitzy trash like Gears of War. At the same time, games that are truly mature like Silent Hill are few and far between. The videogame industry is the equivalent to some snotnosed kid making tough noises to play himself up bigger than he really is.

What most so-called "gamers" have done is suddenly decide that the very thing they loved growing up has suddenly become "childish" to them. The real hardcore gamers are the ones that realize that simply being bloody and swearing a lot does not equate to "mature". Things with videogames are generally about as mature as early Image Comics or Hollywood action blockbusters. "Hardcore gamer", these days, is not a term for someone with refined tastes or natural fascination. "Hardcore gamers" are now simply people who keep buying shit even though they have every reason not to.



This statement just doesnt hold water either way you spin it man.

If you are comparing the 2-D capabilities of the N64 and Playstation one then there really is no comparison the fact is that the N64 could do decent 2-D but was only slightly more powerful 2-D than the SNES.
The Playstation was far outclassed as far as 2-D capabilities when compared to say the SATURN but the N64 had VERY LIMITED 2-D capabilities it simply wasnt designed for those type of games.

I'm not talking about 2D capabilities. What i'm saying is that, ultimately, textures in 3D games are exactly the same 2D as a tile in a 2D game. They're both flat art, and so there was a marked regression in the quality of that art in the jump to 3D games. All the systems could've carried on with the 2D style just fine, but as far as the jump to 3D goes things started off very simply.

Compare the simple textures of MegaMan Legends with something like Tales of Phantasia. It's truly a separate graphical track, and it's only recently that developers have had hardware that allowed them to push 3D to the relative heights that 2D had begun to reach technique-wise.


Speak for yourself! "back in the day" I read GAMEFAN magazine and that was just about all the INTERNET type of info I needed.
If any gamer bothered to read more than Nintendo power before the internet days then they still had were VERY AWARE of the behind-the-scenes factors and goings ons.

Barely. I don't remember any scathing exposes on Nintendo's business practices. You know why? Because mags have never gone anywhere as deep as they could've or should've. They are mostly fluff, and they know it. Hell, most of them will even tell you as much. I'm not kidding, that's the lame throwaway excuse they all run to when asked why they don't do more investigative stories.


So wrong for soooo long.

As I have stated too many times before the cartridge format practically crippled what the N64 was originally capable of in just about every imaginable way. See one of my above posts as to the old cartridge vs. cd argument if anyone even cares anymore lol.

It didn't cripple it anywhere near as much as some like to go on about. The biggest benefits of the CD were largely used for voice and FMV. Really not that big of a deal, especially when you consider how poorly most PSX games used either of those. I mean, both FMV and expecially voice acting were notoriously bad during that era. It seems like the only people who did anything decent with FMV was Square, which hardly makes it seem worth it. Why else was FF7 pushed so hard? It's not like we looked at FF6 and said "Ah, but this is crappy and shallow", and most other good RPGs for the PSX were still largely 2D (Dragon Warrior 7, Suikoden). Again, it wasn't until the generation AFTER the PSX where anything CD-based started to have merit.

Redbook music wasn't even a huge deal except in very few games, like Symphony of the Night. Afterall, don't most of us still think chiptunes hold up? It's the same old issue: it's not up to those features or lack thereof, it's up to the developers to competently use what they have. When you look at what CDs have done for music today, you basically see that it led to an overabundance of over-produced pseudo-symphonic crap or techno garbage.


BTW dont EVEN try the old RE2 on N64 bullcrap the N64 version of RE2 was sooo freaking compressed and was basically an engineering MIRACLE. Many programmers and developers have stated that fact many times over in the years since then.

But it was possible in the hands of developers who cared enough to really use the system, which is the point. Some RE fans even find the N64 port to be the better one overall, despite all versions having some deficiency or another.



I actually fired up the Master Quest on my GC this week, and the better graphics an controller totally reminded me of this fact. The N64 is to the SNES as the Saturn is to the Genesis in my eyes. Why touch it when I've got something *way* better?

Because GameStop charges a ridiculous $40 for a used copy, whereas the used gold N64 cart was 7 bucks.



Dreamcast died because of crippling PlayStation 2 hype (basically a vote of popular confidence in PlayStation 1). If Sega had not been in prior financial trouble, I'm sure they would have kept the DC afloat (Microsoft/Xbox style). Had that happened I believe its library would trump the N64 tenfold. As it stands it is almost equal. Pretty impressive for a two year old failed console. I do believe it reflects worse on N64.

Not really. You're forgetting that while it didn't succeed in the way the PSX did, it still turned a nice profit for Nintendo. Nintendo screwed up its relations with 3rd party developers, didn't have the glitzy buzzword of CDROM support, and was a bitch to program for, yet it hung in there enough for Nintendo to not feel like it was a waste. Conversely, the Dreamcast had literally EVERYTHING going for it, even being clearly superior to the PS2 (which itself ironically had a lot in common with the N64), yet it wasn't enough. And now it's comparable to the N64. So, like i said, that speaks more about the mind-boggling mismanagement going on at Sega more than anything else.


I agree with you, in principle, about "mature games" being mostly teenager fantasies. But we are talking about a time when a "mature game" meant you were playing as a ninja in a sidescroller instead of as a little boy.

In the day, we didn't have women in videogames (the stir caused by Tomb Raider is embarassing today), we didn't have licensed music in games (Rock n Roll Racing notwithstanding), we didn't have skateboarding/snowboarding, few anime inspired games, few RPGs had gone beyond a Dragon Quest setting aside from the Squaresoft gems of SNES.... and swearing, religious icons, pseudo-philosophy: All the things that would today be referenced on some saturday morning anime for pre-teens, they hadn't yet been seen in videogames.

We did have a few female characters, the most notable today being Samus; licensed music is a blight on gaming; we had Skate or Die and 720, off the top of my head; anime games are not indicative of maturity; and few RPGs today go beyond a DQ setting. All the things we lacked were not, themselves, specifically linked to maturity. It's just that Nintendo had some immature censorship rules that were brought on by a immature societal "norms". As far as questioning morals go, i still haven't seen anything comparable to Planescape: Torment even though today's developers have every option to go for it. Why? Because they still think BANGBANGSHOOTBLOOD sells more. That's not a more mature industry at all.

Compare it to the Japanese market, which obviously didn't suffer from the censorship policies of NOA? Yeah, the industry now isn't even more mature than THAT. The industry has made very little progress in areas that actually matter.


THIS is what I mean by "mature games". Sony, with its CD format and desire to go after the aging-teenager-that-had-grown-up-on-NES/SNES/Gen market (as opposed to just families and young kids) was eager to smash taboos that Nintendo wasn't, by courting these types of games for PlayStation. N64 had nothing of the sort except for GoldenEye (maybe 1080 snowboarding or something like..... I dunno... Shadowman).

Now that all this stuff is commonplace, it no longer looks mature. Compared to what had come before, though, even a game starring a girl with big tits would seem radical. But Nintendo, alone, would never even push the envelope like this. It was all about Mario in 3D, Zelda in 3D, StarFox in 3D, Donkey Kong in 3D....

Well, no. It never WAS mature. They just tried to smash the stupid, nothing taboos, like a child acting out some minor rebellion and puffing up his chest like he did something serious. Also not indicative of a growth in maturity. In fact, that sort of think is remarkably immature, and it's still going on today.

Ultimately, iron-fisted policies notwithstanding, Nintendo did then what they're still doing now, which is focusing on actually making fun games as opposed to focusing on gimmicktits and macho bullshit.


Again, my thesis was that only fanboys and kids (and maybe a third catagory: the casual gamer) would love the 64: Who would be talking about Mario or Donkey Kong in 3D? Fanboys; kids. I actually love these types of retro revivals now that I'm a long-time gamer (okay, so I'm a fanboy now), but in the day, what got high schools talking wasn't Donkey Kong 64. It was snowboarding games. Games where you played as a vampire. Games where you fought each other in martial arts battles. Anime plot RPGs....

See, i never got this. All the gamers in my school weren't system fanboys, they were gamers. I had a TG-16, my friend had a Genesis, and we'd take either one to eachother's house to play both. Then we both ended up getting SNESes. Even the 7800 a friend had, we just didn't care so long as it was a videogame. The more systems you had access to the better, because videogames were fuckin' cool. Ironically, the only scoffs i ever recieved came when i was telling another gamer friend about this new game called Doom.


Yes, they would talk about GoldenEye, and it is a strong exception. Yeah, schools loved that one. I moved from the city to a small town around that era, and lo and behold: instead of everyone owning PS1s, they owned N64s. Their steak was GoldenEye, and their dessert were games like Shadowman, THQ wrestling and motocross games. I wouldn't think that one mature FPS and a handful of crappy secondary titles was enough to enjoy a console, but I see it today in some of my Xbox owning friends.... Halo + forgettable secondary titles = their undying love. (they ignore everything I would like about Xbox) To each their own.

That's what happens when someone has to tell you that gaming is cool instead of being fascinated by it on your own. All sectors of entertainment have those. It's mostly why Quentin Tarantino still has a job.



But isn't that exactly my point? Those who didn't care enough to compare the N64 against other consoles thought it was good enough. Those who just played games, but weren't enthusiasts, were perfectly likely to be happy with just the 64. (casuals, kids, and enthuiastic but narrowminded fanboys)

No. At that point, no one had enough information to really pick sides like they do now. Say what you will, the N64 was nowhere near as much of a fuckup as the 32x, the Xbox 360, or the PS3 were/are. Even the poor Saturn didn't really warrant actual animosity. The only ones who did pick sides were narrowminded jackass wannabe-fanboys, pretty much as you'd expect of the kind of nimrods clinging to Shadowman, wrestling, and motocross games. At most you could reasonably be leery of the Jaguar, and that's purely because of the painfully obvious lack of ANY good games. Cybermorph? Ok, lady.

And that's the crux of it. The Jaguar was a crappy system. The N64 was not, it just suffered from rather factors. Unless you're rich enough to buy absolutely EVERYTHING, it only makes sense to go with whatever system has the most games you want to play. But unless the system's mere existence is detrimental to the hobby of gaming like the 360 and PS3, there's no rational reason to pick a side.


Both are good, one is better (in quantity of good games). I would have to jettison knowlege of the gaming world to make a call otherwise.

And I felt this way back then, by the way. It wasn't pre-internet fandom: It was at the dawn of it, actually, and the word on the lips of the net was thus: PlayStation.

The word on the lips of the 'net back then was ".....Quake....Diablo....". And it's not like tomes of insider knowledge on the gaming industry just popped up back then. It's taken a good while since then for people to share and gather what we know now.


I would always support N64 as the "second console" of the day.... but a main contender? No.

Yeah, but it coulda been. Sony just had a lucky hand, and Nintendo pushed theirs WAY too far.

[sabre2922]

This has been fun and all but alas I digress....right after this quick message.


But it was possible in the hands of developers who cared enough to really use the system, which is the point. Some RE fans even find the N64 port to be the better one overall, despite all versions having some deficiency or another.

Let me put it this way RE2 was the EXCEPTION not THE RULE. That is why the cartridge format DID hamper the N64s capabilities in many ways.


No. At that point, no one had enough information to really pick sides like they do now. Say what you will, the N64 was nowhere near as much of a fuckup as the 32x, the Xbox 360, or the PS3 were/are. Even the poor Saturn didn't really warrant actual animosity.

dude u had my interest and I was TRYING to look at it from your point of view until u made this remark.

the Xbox360 and the PS3 a fuckup ? sure there have been problems for these BRAND NEW systems but thats just pushing it.

[poieo]

Let me put it this way RE2 was the EXCEPTION not THE RULE. That is why the cartridge format DID hamper the N64s capabilities in many ways.

The PSX was hampered by the small amount of onboard RAM and slow disk access speeds. Neither set of limitations were catastrophic errors for either system.


dude u had my interest and I was TRYING to look at it from your point of view until u made this remark.

the Xbox360 and the PS3 a fuckup ? sure there have been problems for these BRAND NEW systems but thats just pushing it.

There have been nothing BUT problems for these consoles.

Both systems have been pushed out far too early, and they've been pushed out simply as a shady means of trying to get the upper hand. The result is that the 360, while being expensive and having no library, has experienced a very significant issue of hardware failure. And to make up for the pathetic lack of games, they've been focusing on cheapshit Live Arcade rehashes. All of this is directly because of the idiotic insistence that we needed the next generation of consoles to start NOW, as opposed to a few years down the line when they've actually got their shit together. This is a crappy practice that gouges the consumer, and very much needs to be stomped out.

What's worse, it's not even necessary to be the first out of the gate against the PS3, given Sony's intent to commit corporate suicide. MS had favor of the devlopers because the dev environment is FAR better than with the PS3, they have Live, and they have a 3rd company that isn't terribly keen on even competing with them. They had every advantage, yet all the 360 has to show for it is gimped harddrive support, hardware failures out the ass, and no respectable library save for 20 year-old arcade titles. All they needed to do was let Sony push their junkbox out early while they got their manufacturing process decent, and give developers enough time to actually make some notable games, and Sony would've just fallen on their own incompetence. It could've been a sparkling generation of consoles where you really might as well buy both of the major systems, given what they do, but instead we're left with an unreliable white brick that still has no games an entire YEAR after it came out.

So, yeah. The 360 is one of the biggest squandering of resources and opportunities that gaming has ever seen. And if you actually need me to explain to you how the PS3 is a giant fuckup, there's no hope for you.

[sabre2922]

The PSX was hampered by the small amount of onboard RAM and slow disk access speeds. Neither set of limitations were catastrophic errors for either system.



There have been nothing BUT problems for these consoles.

Both systems have been pushed out far too early, and they've been pushed out simply as a shady means of trying to get the upper hand. The result is that the 360, while being expensive and having no library, has experienced a very significant issue of hardware failure. And to make up for the pathetic lack of games, they've been focusing on cheapshit Live Arcade rehashes. All of this is directly because of the idiotic insistence that we needed the next generation of consoles to start NOW, as opposed to a few years down the line when they've actually got their shit together. This is a crappy practice that gouges the consumer, and very much needs to be stomped out.

What's worse, it's not even necessary to be the first out of the gate against the PS3, given Sony's intent to commit corporate suicide. MS had favor of the devlopers because the dev environment is FAR better than with the PS3, they have Live, and they have a 3rd company that isn't terribly keen on even competing with them. They had every advantage, yet all the 360 has to show for it is gimped harddrive support, hardware failures out the ass, and no respectable library save for 20 year-old arcade titles. All they needed to do was let Sony push their junkbox out early while they got their manufacturing process decent, and give developers enough time to actually make some notable games, and Sony would've just fallen on their own incompetence. It could've been a sparkling generation of consoles where you really might as well buy both of the major systems, given what they do, but instead we're left with an unreliable white brick that still has no games an entire YEAR after it came out.

So, yeah. The 360 is one of the biggest squandering of resources and opportunities that gaming has ever seen. And if you actually need me to explain to you how the PS3 is a giant fuckup, there's no hope for you.

You got me there friend I guess theres just no hope for me.

I guess its just me and my simple mind that cannot comprehend how you can honestly proclaim the PS3 a "fuck up" when it hasnt even been out for a year yet.
Hey Im no PS3 fanboy and I even I think its an overhyped paperweight -for now- but the games will come .....If you build the system the games will come well unless your the virtual boy,32X or Jag Awww screw it lol u know what I mean fellow gamers.

Face it man the N64 was a GOOD system not GREAT but good it just didnt live up to its full potential in the eyes of many gamers is all maybe not YOURS but many others.

peace out

[BocoDragon]

I think the N64 pad actually beat out the dualshock pad for the simple fact that it was an actual cross instead of having that separation like Sony's pads. What the N64 didn't have was a good Capcom or Namco fighter to use it with. It's hard to really see how it did when the only things to test it with are Midway crapfests that surely have shit controls on their own.

The separation of the Sony d-pad is an illusion. It's not like there is a center button. I suppose one might prefer to have a middle chunk to the d-pad, but its functionally no different. The 64 pad is poor because it has little depth and the pad itself is too rigid.


Not really. You're forgetting that while it didn't succeed in the way the PSX did, it still turned a nice profit for Nintendo. Nintendo screwed up its relations with 3rd party developers, didn't have the glitzy buzzword of CDROM support, and was a bitch to program for, yet it hung in there enough for Nintendo to not feel like it was a waste. Conversely, the Dreamcast had literally EVERYTHING going for it, even being clearly superior to the PS2 (which itself ironically had a lot in common with the N64), yet it wasn't enough. And now it's comparable to the N64. So, like i said, that speaks more about the mind-boggling mismanagement going on at Sega more than anything else.

In terms of profitability, yes, the N64 did better than many consoles. If we're going by that, though, then the Xbox might just be the most failed console of all time.


We did have a few female characters, the most notable today being Samus;

Her femininity was a twist ending in the original game, meant to completely shock you. If that doesn't make girls in games rare, I don't know what does. Even 10 years after Metroid this was true. If you had released Malice in 1996, it would have made it to the cover of Time magazine.


licensed music is a blight on gaming;

At one time it wasn't considered so. At one time, it was considered an amazing step forward for the medium. "You mean you can have real music in this Tony Hawk game? MTV better start paying attention to games!"

10 years later this has become a joke, and serious gamers resent it, but at one time it was progressive and amazing. Without licensed music, the mainstream cool factor would never be a part of it.

It's pretty easy to hate some of this stuff now that it's common.


we had Skate or Die and 720, off the top of my head;

1980s skateboarding: not really the same fad. It was all about kneepads and skate ramps back then. When they finally brought urban skateboarding (that knew what a grind was) and played punk music on the soundtrack, they tapped into street cred that earned PlayStation a name amonst saavy youth (much like GTA years later).


anime games are not indicative of maturity;

Oh yes they are. Another difference between 1996 and 2006: When I say "anime", people have an opinion already, and it's inevitably a saturday morning cartoon view of the word anime. I'm not talking about DBZ and Naruto.

I'm talking about FFVII, Persona, that Ghost in the Shell tank game, Street Fighter Alpha, maybe Tobal, Metal Gear Solid. Anime plotlines. Instead of smiling platforming children and stoic western-safe heroes, we now had crazy-haired youth taking on corporations, having philisophical conversations, and taking on macabre and intelligent villains.

Again, doesn't seem mature today. Easy to say in 2006. When videogames were like Sonic the Hedgehog and Donkey Kong Country, though, anime-inspired plotlines were leagues ahead of anything seen before (look at any Hideo Kojima game for an example: Snatcher and MGS were radical in ways that would seem pedestrian today)


and few RPGs today go beyond a DQ setting.

Sure they do. Final Fantasy, Shin Megamei Tensei: Nocturne/DDS, Dragon Quarter?

It's not as much as I'd like, though, I'll give you that..... but in 1997 we got FFVII and Persona: two RPGs set in a modern world. I'd say we had more envelope pushing RPGs back then.


All the things we lacked were not, themselves, specifically linked to maturity. It's just that Nintendo had some immature censorship rules that were brought on by a immature societal "norms". As far as questioning morals go, i still haven't seen anything comparable to Planescape: Torment even though today's developers have every option to go for it. Why? Because they still think BANGBANGSHOOTBLOOD sells more. That's not a more mature industry at all.
Right, and I've always agreed with you on this. I'm not talking "real" maturity, that might be compared to literary works and such. I'm talking about comparative maturity. I'm talking about the type of maturity that would grab teenagers living in the late 90s... The NES/SNES generation which was entering high school and such, and rejecting the playthings of their youth for the next great thing.

I remember a friend bringing Mario RPG's manual to school. "Mario?" my classmates said "That shit's old!" (ironic in retrospect... Mario 64 is like an old classic now, and this was before that was released)

Nintendo's usual hits weren't going to particularly interest my generation, at that point in time, that much was obvious.



Compare it to the Japanese market, which obviously didn't suffer from the censorship policies of NOA? Yeah, the industry now isn't even more mature than THAT. The industry has made very little progress in areas that actually matter.

Maybe. I don't actually know if the "mature games" advantage for PSone was as big in Japan. That may have been a North American phenomenon. Look at how GTAIII may have been one of the most important games of the generation, but it is just a tiny quirky import in Japan.




Well, no. It never WAS mature. They just tried to smash the stupid, nothing taboos, like a child acting out some minor rebellion and puffing up his chest like he did something serious. Also not indicative of a growth in maturity. In fact, that sort of think is remarkably immature, and it's still going on today.

Sounds to me like you're sick of our current era, where games like Gears of War are supposedly the most "mature" thing on the block, yet they are really just immature war fantasies propped up as the "best" of the industry.

But again, in the late 90s we had none of this. It was this smiling platformer, or this smiling RPG, or this game where you play as a Ninja or a Vampire hunter... all with little story.

And it looked like N64 was happy to continue this trend, by the way, while PlayStation was committed to releasing envelope breaking titles that pushed the limits of storyline and what could be expected in videogames (however insignificant that progression may seem today)


The word on the lips of the 'net back then was ".....Quake....Diablo....". And it's not like tomes of insider knowledge on the gaming industry just popped up back then. It's taken a good while since then for people to share and gather what we know now.

You may want to speak for yourself on this one... I had been following the industry for years as an EGM/Nintendo Power reader: I remember Project reality hype, the Nintendo-Sony split over the "Play Station" CD-Rom, I was a huge Final Fantasy III fan, and when FFVII was announced for PlayStation it was far more interesting to me than any Nintendo title in 3D..... The internet was two years old then and the online gaming community was fully cemented. Perhaps you were not "there", but I was (I ran a website in early 1997), and the industry was definitely shocked by the very obvious and immediate coup against Nintendo domination (Nintendo seemed far more cemented as the leader in that era than Sony does today)


Yeah, but it coulda been. Sony just had a lucky hand, and Nintendo pushed theirs WAY too far.

I do agree that Sony was lucky in a lot of ways.... but scooping series like Final Fantasy, Street Fighter, Megaman, Dragon Quest? Backroom deals may have had a lot to do with it. If FFVII had gone to N64, I promise this industry would look a lot different than it does now.

To sum up, because I don't think we need to continue these huge point-by-point replies anymore (feel free to continue if you want): N64 is a good console. It has a couple A++ games. It was far less than anyone ever expected from Nintendo. That's the short of it.

Oh, and I do find your immediate condemnation of 360 and PS3 interesting. By the time this is all over, the 360 library and the PS3 library could end up many times more interesting than that of the N64. They aren't even as obviously "failures" as N64 was in its day. (except in regard to 360 and Japan: and Blue Dragon is actually selling the thing to the Japanese!)

[poieo]

That's going to be the exact problem with the PS3 -- the games. If you poll game developers, a common complain among them is that all those shiny, big games cost a lot of time, money, and effort. In a nutshell, the big games are on the edge of being too hard to make as it is. So what does Sony do? They learn nothing from the Saturn debacle and come up with a console that makes it even harder (and therefore, more expensive) to program for. That is a fuckup of epic proportions. Compare this to both Nintendo and MS, who have taken steps to make it easier to develop games for their systems. Now if you've only got so much time, are you going to spend years wrangling with the PS3, or are you going to go with the still powerful (but easier to develop for) 360? Or even the innovative Wii?

Then add on top of that the ridiculous price, and the hardware which i'd bet serious money on having failure issues given the shoddy construction of Sony's previous consoles. Total fuckup.

[BocoDragon]

That's going to be the exact problem with the PS3 -- the games. If you poll game developers, a common complain among them is that all those shiny, big games cost a lot of time, money, and effort. In a nutshell, the big games are on the edge of being too hard to make as it is. So what does Sony do? They learn nothing from the Saturn debacle and come up with a console that makes it even harder (and therefore, more expensive) to program for. That is a fuckup of epic proportions. Compare this to both Nintendo and MS, who have taken steps to make it easier to develop games for their systems. Now if you've only got so much time, are you going to spend years wrangling with the PS3, or are you going to go with the still powerful (but easier to develop for) 360? Or even the innovative Wii?

Then add on top of that the ridiculous price, and the hardware which i'd bet serious money on having failure issues given the shoddy construction of Sony's previous consoles. Total fuckup.

I actually agree with most of that. Hopefully this can illustrate a point.

"Why was the N64 hated?"

Mostly for the same reason you've just hated upon the PS3. You know the games, you know the politics, you know the market. PS3 just isn't a very good strategy, and if it underperforms, you will know exactly why.

But it might have 3 or 4 (or 20) excellent games... and in 10 years you might be having a conversation with a kid who loves the old PS3. "How can you hate it?" he asks. And you can say "well, its business model was doomed to failure, and then it didn't do very well."

"What are you talking about? PS3 had 10 great games, and it turned a profit!"

"Yes, but at the time, we expected far better from a PlayStation...."

"That shouldn't matter. I don't care about system politics or fanboys. PS3 gave me some great games and that's all that matters. It was a great system!!"

"yes, but....."

Hopefully I've made my point. How can we hate the N64? For the same reasons you've just hated on the PS3. You know the score, you know what's expected, and if it underperforms, you will consider it a failure. It might turn a profit. It might have some good games..... but you KNOW what a PlayStation success looks like (just as we knew what a successful Nintendo console looked like), and if it doesn't meet that level, it will be a failure in your eyes. The kind of failure that, by the way, neither kids nor casuals will care about.

And actually...... PS3 probably won't be a failure. I really think we'll see a repeat of last gen (post-Dreamcast) with only modest failures (like Gamecube).

[poieo]

Yeah, looks like you're getting tired of all this.


You may want to speak for yourself on this one... I had been following the industry for years as an EGM/Nintendo Power reader: I remember Project reality hype, the Nintendo-Sony split over the "Play Station" CD-Rom, I was a huge Final Fantasy III fan, and when FFVII was announced for PlayStation it was far more interesting to me than any Nintendo title in 3D..... The internet was two years old then and the online gaming community was fully cemented. Perhaps you were not "there", but I was (I ran a website in early 1997), and the industry was definitely shocked by the very obvious and immediate coup against Nintendo domination (Nintendo seemed far more cemented as the leader in that era than Sony does today)

I was indeed there. But i don't remember very many sites that were more than those ghastly Geocities fan deals or online extentions of the shoddy mags.


I do agree that Sony was lucky in a lot of ways.... but scooping series like Final Fantasy, Street Fighter, Megaman, Dragon Quest? Backroom deals may have had a lot to do with it. If FFVII had gone to N64, I promise this industry would look a lot different than it does now.

I don't know about backroom deals, but we do know that Nintendo played really dirty with their 3rd parties. They all had quite enough. This was what really gave companies a chance to slap Nintendo and say "This is what happens without us. Treat us better".


To sum up, because I don't think we need to continue these huge point-by-point replies anymore (feel free to continue if you want): N64 is a good console. It has a couple A++ games. It was far less than anyone ever expected from Nintendo. That's the short of it.

Pretty much.


Oh, and I do find your immediate condemnation of 360 and PS3 interesting. By the time this is all over, the 360 library and the PS3 library could end up many times more interesting than that of the N64. They aren't even as obviously "failures" as N64 was in its day. (except in regard to 360 and Japan: and Blue Dragon is actually selling the thing to the Japanese!)

The 360 library should be, once everyone gets their shit together. Hence my issue being that it simply came out stupidly early. But the PS3 is dead in the water.

[sabre2922]

That's going to be the exact problem with the PS3 -- the games. If you poll game developers, a common complain among them is that all those shiny, big games cost a lot of time, money, and effort. In a nutshell, the big games are on the edge of being too hard to make as it is. So what does Sony do? They learn nothing from the Saturn debacle and come up with a console that makes it even harder (and therefore, more expensive) to program for. That is a fuckup of epic proportions. Compare this to both Nintendo and MS, who have taken steps to make it easier to develop games for their systems. Now if you've only got so much time, are you going to spend years wrangling with the PS3, or are you going to go with the still powerful (but easier to develop for) 360? Or even the innovative Wii?

Then add on top of that the ridiculous price, and the hardware which i'd bet serious money on having failure issues given the shoddy construction of Sony's previous consoles. Total fuckup.

The PS2 was the most difficult-to-design-for console of the last generation initially BUT it eventually became the favorite among many AAA game developers not the least of wich was HIDEO KOJIMA of Konami/Metal Gear Solid fame and Criterion of the Burnout and Black games.

The fact is that as much as I and many other gamers luv the good ol Saturn it was a complete NIGHTMARE as far as its hardware configuration goes and that added to its programming difficulty but comparing the PS3 to the Saturn is just well again ....pushing it.

[poieo]

Yeah, this did cross my mind earlier. Like i said, if i had to guess why i feel differently, it's because Sony really should know better. I despise this new round of consoles because these idiots honestly think that this sort of incompetence is how things are done. And in Sony's case, having gained everything from Nintendo's arrogance... man.

You know what it is? Nintendo fucked up but arguably had some method to their madness. They wanted control. We're better off, FAR better, now that they've been smacked out of that, but there was at least a reason. MS and Sony are just purely incompetent. That's what insults me the most. No plan, no execution, they're just that oblivious. I'm at the point where i entirely resent MS' tactic of survival via bottomless pockets. It's not good for ANYONE, even themselves.


I actually agree with most of that. Hopefully this can illustrate a point.

"Why was the N64 hated?"

Mostly for the same reason you've just hated upon the PS3. You know the games, you know the politics, you know the market. PS3 just isn't a very good strategy, and if it underperforms, you will know exactly why.

But it might have 3 or 4 (or 20) excellent games... and in 10 years you might be having a conversation with a kid who loves the old PS3. "How can you hate it?" he asks. And you can say "well, its business model was doomed to failure, and then it didn't do very well."

"What are you talking about? PS3 had 10 great games, and it turned a profit!"

"Yes, but at the time, we expected far better from a PlayStation...."

"That shouldn't matter. I don't care about system politics or fanboys. PS3 gave me some great games and that's all that matters. It was a great system!!"

"yes, but....."

Hopefully I've made my point. How can we hate the N64? For the same reasons you've just hated on the PS3. You know the score, you know what's expected, and if it underperforms, you will consider it a failure. It might turn a profit. It might have some good games..... but you KNOW what a PlayStation success looks like (just as we knew what a successful Nintendo console looked like), and if it doesn't meet that level, it will be a failure in your eyes. The kind of failure that, by the way, neither kids nor casuals will care about.

And actually...... PS3 probably won't be a failure. I really think we'll see a repeat of last gen (post-Dreamcast) with only modest failures (like Gamecube).

[poieo]

The PS2 was the most difficult-to-design-for console of the last generation initially BUT it eventually became the favorite among many AAA game developers not the least of wich was HIDEO KOJIMA of Konami/Metal Gear Solid fame and Criterion of the Burnout and Black games.

The fact is that as much as I and many other gamers luv the good ol Saturn it was a complete NIGHTMARE as far as its hardware configuration goes and that added to its programming difficulty but comparing the PS3 to the Saturn is just well again ....pushing it.

Not at all. If the PS2 had not been able to coast into the top spot due not only to the death of the Dreamcast AND the good name created by the PSX, it too would've been in the same place the Saturn was. The only thing the PS2 had going for it was momentum and a lack of competition.

Those two things are no longer true; the PS3 now has no momentum and very serious competition.

[BocoDragon]

Yeah, this did cross my mind earlier. Like i said, if i had to guess why i feel differently, it's because Sony really should know better. I despise this new round of consoles because these idiots honestly think that this sort of incompetence is how things are done. And in Sony's case, having gained everything from Nintendo's arrogance... man.

You know what it is? Nintendo fucked up but arguably had some method to their madness. They wanted control. We're better off, FAR better, now that they've been smacked out of that, but there was at least a reason. MS and Sony are just purely incompetent. That's what insults me the most. No plan, no execution, they're just that oblivious. I'm at the point where i entirely resent MS' tactic of survival via bottomless pockets. It's not good for ANYONE, even themselves.

Yeah... I suppose PS3 is Sony shooting themselves in the foot with an obvious flaw (price) in a way that N64 didn't.

N64's comparative failure might have come from the fact that they didn't innovate. At a time when content was begging to be advanced, they focused on updating their usual content in 3D; the expected route. This is all quite ironic, because they are the kings of innovation these days. The whole idea behind the Wii and DS is to avoid the kind of complacance that got them into the N64 and Gamecube situation.

Now it is Sony that is pushing graphically better versions of their old hits, but on top of that, they are doubling the price. Could be a bad combo.

You think PS3 is dead in the water.... but I don't. I think PS3 will be a success. I believe it is now between a modest success (that would humble them: the outcome we probably want) and a breakaway success. The latter would see the industry transformed into a premium-priced high end market, like modifying cars or building gaming PCs or something.... but I think Wii is delivering enough of a spanking to the industry that this will not happen. I hope so.

[poieo]

I'd say they innovated enough. What they did with Mario 64 alone set a major standard for 3D platforming. With the controller itself, even if you didn't like the shape, they were clearly starting to explore simplified concepts in how people used it. To this day, everyone else is just concerned with cramming more buttons in there.

As far as the PS3, no. I've heard plenty of people express doubts or disbelief over what i've said about it, but i've never heard anything to back it up. What worries me is things truly becoming like the PC game industry, where you can have all the evidence in the world that something isn't working, and not only will companies NOT stop doing it, people will keep buying it until that alone becomes the only justification for it. It's the sort of environment where you can complain for years that you want co-op multiplayer, yet the devs will say there's no market for them and (dur) no one buying these non-existent co-op games.

[Rob2600]

Name 20 good games for the N64 that Nintendo/Rare didn't make/release/develope and are not Japanese imports.

41 highly rated third-party games/series for the Nintendo 64:

007: The World Is Not Enough
All-Star Baseball series
BattleTanx series
Beetle Adventure Racing
Body Harvest
Bust-a-Move series
Command & Conquer
Extreme-G
F-1 World Grand Prix series
FIFA '99
Fighters Destiny
Goemon/Mystical Ninja series
Harvest Moon 64
International Superstar Soccer series
Madden NFL series
Mortal Kombat 4
NBA Live series
NFL Blitz series
NFL Quarterback Club '98/'99
NHL '99
Ogre Battle 64: Person of Lordly Caliber
Quake series
Rayman 2: The Great Escape
Ready 2 Rumble Boxing
Resident Evil 2
Rocket: Robot on Wheels
San Francisco Rush series
Space Station Silicon Valley
Spider-Man
Star Wars: Rogue Squadron/Star Wars: Episode I: Battle for Naboo
Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six
Tony Hawk's Pro Skater series
Top Gear Rally series
Turok series
Vigilante 8 series
WCW/NWO/WWF series (Asmik)
WWF series (Iguana)
Wetrix
Wipeout 64
World Driver Championship
Worms Armageddon

[CelticJobber]

I loved the N64 in its heyday. I played it more than any system other than NES and PS2. But I never really got into PS1, its load times were unbearable since I was so used to cartridges at the time. And I was never a big RPG fan, unless you count Zelda games.

But honestly, I can't go back and play most N64 games now because of the slowdown. In my opinion, 2D systems like SNES and Genesis have aged better than the 3D games on PS1/N64.

[mr.soul]

I love the N64 for a couple of reasons. One is that it is one of the earliest systems that can hold my attention span long enough to actually beat a game. I hate to say it, but I find myself switching games with my NES all the time because I can't find the determination to keep doing the same thing over and over.

The second reason is the multiplayer. It's amazing and you know it. Honestly the best system to play with friends ever.

[j_factor]

I have to admit to being an N64 hater myself. A lot of it is for "historical reasons" as someone said, but all in all, I still don't think it had a very good library. A lot of people praised it as a party system, but I found its actual library of multiplayer titles to be far from amazing. Mario Party is a snoozefest, and Bomberman 64 was an abomination. Sure it was nice that you didn't need a multitap, but Playstation and Saturn (Saturn a bit moreso) had better actual games in this area.

IMO, N64 has a very large number of overrated games. It seemed to me at the time that because there were so few major N64 games coming out, every time one decent game was released for the system it was this big event and the game was hailed as the second coming. If Diddy Kong Racing had been a Playstation or Saturn game (minus the characters obviously), nobody would've cared about it. Same goes for the WWF games. I mean come on, pro wrestling games? Really?

I was asked just the other day for my take on the N64 library, to list every game I thought was worthwhile for the system. Not just great games, but everything that's merely worth playing. I scoured through game lists to make sure I didn't forget anything, and I could only come up with 34 titles. Some people would say that 34 good games isn't that bad. To me, that's very weak. Incidentally, that's the number of games I currently own for Wii. And it's way, way smaller than the same list would be for PS2, Xbox, Gamecube, Dreamcast, GBA, DS, PSX, Saturn, SNES, Genesis, Turbo Duo, etc. etc.

Earlier the comparison was made of N64's library to Dreamcast's. In my opinion that comparison isn't even close. If anything, I would say that the N64 library is about equal to that of Sega CD, or 3DO.

[jupitersj]

It's probably people who have always been jealous; their parents bought them the PlayStation because it was popular and they got stuck with a flood of mediocre games while us lucky N64 owners got around 20 incredibly awesome games.

PS1 might have had more games but it sure as hell didn't have more quality.

I love me n64 oh yeaaah :devilish:

...but come on; I can easily name 100 games of quality worth owning EACH on Saturn and Playstation.

[jupitersj]

OBJECTION!
I was under the impression that it was universally agreed upon that the DualShock's d-pad was a piece of shit. There is no way the 64 controller tops that d-pad in terms of crappiness. Also, you're seriously saying it's worse than the GameCube's tiny d-pad placed off in the middle of nowhere? Please tell me you're joking. At least the N64's d-pad is in the primary thumb position; you have to reach over in a strange position and fiddle with a miniature, imprecise d-pad with the GameCube controller.

The N64 had at least 20 superb games. Most gamers do not buy more than 20 games for their system. So what's wrong with this? Well?

Do you honestly play the supposed hundreds of great games available for a system that has that many? You can tell me you've played through hundreds of PlayStation games? If you have, you're one of the few.

It doesn't matter if a system has hundreds of good games, you're probably not going to come anywhere near beating all of them. The N64 should have been by no means a disappointment to the average gamer without thousands of hours to waste playing hundreds of games.

And that's just one console. You probably own a ton of systems. So you've got to find the time to beat hundreds of good PlayStation games and the thousands more good games on all your systems. Quite frankly, few people have this kind of time. Everyone always praises a library with hundreds of great titles, but how many of them play all of those hundreds of titles? I've got hundreds of good games scattered across dozens of systems, but I haven't even beaten half of them.

Like real life, many people have different tastes in games. That 20 drops down significantly based on what kind of games you like to play. Why would or should anyone be stuck with the same exact 20 games? Variety is the spice of life :cheers:

[strassy]

I was under the impression that this was a good feature. Who needs a billion boring, turn-based RPGs filled with monotonous random battles?

The N64 had Paper Mario - that trumped any boring standard J-RPG on the PS1.



This argument doesn't work. I was around in the SNES days, and the N64 was far from a disappointment.

The controller looks and feels like trash compared to its predecessors? Because the SNES controller's gray color scheme and the NES controller's ugly archaic look are so stylin', right?

I don't see how anyone can honestly say the N64 controller is worse than the NES controller. I don't recall ever having my hands hurting because the edge of the controller was cutting into them with the N64 controller. Sharp edges was a frequent issue with the NES controller.

The NES controller also had two main buttons and a d-pad. You couldn't do shit with that. Well, not that you'd need to, as the system was too primitive to handle anything even remotely complex or entertaining.

i realize that i am responding to a post from over a year and a half ago..but i had to

it's interesting that the same person who claims that the N64 ages well claims that the NES has nothing entertaining.

games being made now are essentially more modern versions of things that were made in the N64 era. 3D games, first person shooters. is there anything remotely similar to the original Legend of Zelda out now? maybe games in the same genre or with a similar theme, but they play NOTHING like NES games. games from the modern generation basically improve on what the N64 did, which happened to be the point in video games where the whole concept of what a video game consist of was being reworked.

i challenge anyone to sit through an entire game of Madden 64 and tell me they enjoyed it. you won't, because modern football games do exactly what Madden 64 did, except they have infinitely improved on every facet of the game since then.

there's a reason that there are lots of websites and fan groups for Tecmo Super Bowl. Madden 64 has none. ironic.

that is not to say that there are no good games for N64. there are some...but most of them just look silly nowadays. the NES (and 16 bit systems) provide something that is no longer really available in the video game market.

i think there's something to be said that the original poster was "around in the SNES days", sounds like he wasn't around in the NES days. that is why he can't appreciate the NES. i was alive when the Atari 2600 was popular, but I was never exposed to it until much later. Frankly, I find 2600 games to be very boring (for the most part) but i respect that people are into it, and I'm sure my appreciation for it would be greater had I played video games in the early 80s. This guy just suffers from tunnel vision and a hypocritical perspective.

OK, i'm done...just have to defend the best system ever (and that's a fact :wink 2: )

[FrakAttack]

Had such a love/hate relationship with the N64 in the early years, hated the overpriced carts and comical controller, but nowadays when I sit down to list my all time top 10 faves I find that the list includes more N64 titles than any other console.

So, I've decided to call it love and let it be. http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m112/FrakAttack/smileys/smiley_hearts.gif

[Rogue]

It's probably people who have always been jealous; their parents bought them the PlayStation because it was popular and they got stuck with a flood of mediocre games while us lucky N64 owners got around 20 incredibly awesome games.

PS1 might have had more games but it sure as hell didn't have more quality.

Agreed. And I really know some people like that. =D

[jjgames]

Had such a love/hate relationship with the N64 in the early years, hated the overpriced carts and comical controller, but nowadays when I sit down to list my all time top 10 faves I find that the list includes more N64 titles than any other console.

That about sums it up for me. Games were very expensive and far apart at the time, but now that they are cheaper and all available the system has some awesome games.

[MrSparkle]

i think the n64 was worlds better in regards to graphics over the playstation. Maybe im alone on this but i thought the n64 controller was great. Ill admit the library wasnt the strongest ever but it still had TONS of great games IMO.

[mnbren05]

I've always liked the N64. I enjoyed the games, and had a ton of fun playing against my friends. (Hell we still have tournaments for Mario Kart 64, Super Smash Bros, Goldeneye, Perfect Dark etc) I would (and still will) play my N64 over the PS1 or Jaguar any day of the week.

[DeputyMoniker]

The ******* is "fucking", I didn't want to say it but you made me :)

I thought it was "spinach."