Has modern gaming left Sonic as a relic? Will Sonic & the Secret Rings revive him?

[agbulls]

:roll: :roll: I'm curious as to what you guys think. I'm 26--and have been enjoying the Sonic series (including the Adventure series) since the first title. With few exceptions, most notably Shadow, I think Sega has done an above average job making above average games with an excellent character.

However, the newest title--"Sonic the Hedgehog"-- has received terrible scores across the board. I have this excellent little Sonic miniature that sits in my cube, and he just keeps staring at me. He's saying, "C'mon Adam...you know you've enjoyed MOST of my games. Forget Shadow the Hedgehog. This is a 360 title. Go on out to the EB and buy my new game. Ignore the reviewers and the garbage fanboy posts on gamefaqs."

But, I just can't ignore the problems that people talk about. Furthermore, I thought the demo was decent. Nothing spectacular, but I enjoyed it. So, here I am with a dilmena. Has Sonic really passed his prime? Mario seems to keep on kicking. What do you guys think? Also, for those that have played it, how's the new game? :hmm:

[Joker T]

I hated the demo, can't imagine the game is much better.

But it really comes down to what you like, if you have Xbox Live download the demo and try it yourself. Your own opinion should come first.

[jajaja]

Actually i feel this way with Mario too, when he went 3d. I've heard New SMB is great, but still.. Mario in 3d isnt a true Mario game imo.

Maybe its the same with Sonic too? I dont have any connections to Sonic since i never owned a Sega system when it was popular (now i have most of them). I've always had a problem with the first Sonic games since i find it too hard to see whats going on on the screen. Its too fast and the background blends too much in with the foreground (atleast at some missions).

[agbulls]

Actually i feel this way with Mario too, when he went 3d. I've heard New SMB is great, but still.. Mario in 3d isnt a true Mario game imo.

Maybe its the same with Sonic too? I dont have any connections to Sonic since i never owned a Sega system when it was popular (now i have most of them). I've always had a problem with the first Sonic games since i find it too hard to see whats going on on the screen. Its too fast and the background blends too much in with the foreground (atleast at some missions).

That's an interesting theory Jajaja. But Mario 64 is definetly part of the series in my opinion. Also, I think most Sonic fans tend to like at least Sonic Adventure 1. It just seems that platformers are much more natural in their "native state"---that of 2D. 3D brings in things that are never concerns in a traditional platformer...camera, invisible ledges etc. I'm just curious if you guys think that most modern adult gamers have now officially written Sonic off? After all, it took 3 (or 4?) terrible Tomb Raider games before that series was corrected. Is that what we're looking at now with Sonic?

[dylan0228]

I think if you enjoyed the demo, you`ll probably enjoy the game. That has been the case in the majority of instances i`ve used that strategy. If I like the demo, the game is usually better.

[Jorpho]

I kind of feel that Sonic the Hedgehog has built up too much history at this point. Too many anime series, too many characters, too many gameplay styles. In the first game you found against this weird round guy in red pants and a flying machine and his robots that turned into animals when you hit them. Life was simple. Not so much anymore, I daresay.

Mario is also getting a little burdened with history, but I don't think it has gotten as bad just yet.

[sabre2922]

The root of the problem is this: the SEGA! of old is all but DEAD.

I remember back when anything made by SONIC TEAM was almost certain to be a AAA game but now they keep releasing mediocre to bad games one after the other the Last great game Sega has released was the Genesis collection on PS2 and PSP and thats just a retrocollection a GREAT compilation to be sure.

Sure many of the ppl that made Sonic Team so great back in the Genesis/Saturn and even the Dreamcast days are gone now but it seems that all but the Virtua Fighter development teams have left the building for good and in their place are nothing but "shadows of their former selves" -RE pun intended.

I did enjoy the two Sonic Adventure games especially the first but its sad for an old-time gamer like me to see some of the beloved 2-D characters/franchises tarnished so badly in their recent 3-D makeover/redesigns and even REredesigns.

The good thing is that there still may be hope for Sonic I mean if TOMB RAIDER can comeback to life as it did with legends a very good and solid game then certainly Sonic still has a chance.

I actually surprisingly find myself keeping tabs on the Tomb Raider Anniversary game being made for PS2 and umm psp and I used to revile that series after TR2 so in conclusion there is always hope..even for Sonic.

[Golden Bear]

Sonic the Hedgehog will someday make a comeback!

Don't give up hope, peeps!

[TheRedEye]

If you enjoyed Sonic Heroes, you might enjoy this new game, because it also sucks!

[ProgrammingAce]

or... ew... billy hatcher and the giant egg.....


There just doesn't seem to be a way to drag sonic into 3d (personally i find Sonic Adventure pretty awful too). If there is a way, whoever is left at SEGA has neither the tallent nor the finances to do it. I find it amazing that SEGA can afford to keep throwing millions into the development of these games. Either they're going to figure out they suck, or they'll go bankrupt... i'm leaning towards bankrupt myself.

[TheRedEye]

Yeah, bankruptcy's inevitable, what with Sega-Sammy's 31% increased net profit this year:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=11611

[RCM]

As a long time Sonic fan who still enjoys Sonic's portions of the Adventure series and the flawed but fun Sonic Heroes, I say give this game at least a rent.

Sonic's 3D titles on a whole, as complete games are average at best. When you focus on Sonic's platform areas you get a much better experience.

Sonic 360 has some great moments and a catchy soundtrack. Unfortunately there's so much "non-Sonic" parts that it can put off even the biggest fans (like me).

What Sega needs to do is focus on Sonic and Sonic only. The latest build I saw of Secret Rings looked promising. Hopefully Sega has realized the error of their ways and will finally start bringing out Sonic ONLY Sonic games. How about this for a title of the next 360 game:

THE ONE, THE ONLY - SONIC THE HEDGEHOG

Ha.

[agbulls]

I agree. We don't buy Mario games to play as Toad and we don't buy Sonic games to play as one of the bazillion side chars. Gimme a game with Sonic, just Sonic and ONLY SONIC!!!!!

[Richter]

The good thing is that there still may be hope for Sonic I mean if TOMB RAIDER can comeback to life as it did with legends a very good and solid game then certainly Sonic still has a chance.
part of that is because a completely new developer taking on the games. Sega should follow

[ProgrammingAce]

Yeah, bankruptcy's inevitable, what with Sega-Sammy's 31% increased net profit this year:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=11611


Huh... I couldn't quite figure out how that would work until i read a bit further down:


Sega Sammy CEO and group chairman Hajime Satomi noted in his report that by far the company's success rested on its "unrivaled" development in the pachislot and pachinko business

Glad their pachinko division is pulling them through. Unfortunately they only have 30 titles with an average review score of 90 or above (http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/CompanyDetails.asp?sort=4). That's for the entire history of the company...

[Melf]

Unfortunately they only have 30 titles with an average review score of 90 or above (http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/CompanyDetails.asp?sort=4). That's for the entire history of the company...

All that link shows is the sheer amount of uninformed people out there. Sega's made more classic titles than you can shake a stick at, and it has one of the most prestigious arcade and console pedigrees in the entire industry.

That being said, old Sega > new Sega. Times have changed, key people have left, and the company just doesn't seem as motivated as it was when it had to produce quality software for its consoles. The fact that turds like Shadow the Hedgehog sold over a million copies doesn't help much to get it to change its ways either.

[PapaStu]

Sonic Team has had a hard time dealing with the transition to full 3D. Thats been the problem.

Theres not a ton that can be done to make Sonic still feel speedy and fun in that full 3D environment. The worlds would just have to be ENORMIS and thats not going to happen. What we get are decent attempts at making some new stuff (Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2) and some weird stabs in the dark (Shadow The Hedgehog, Sonic Riders) while they still push the classic Sonics because they can. My personal favorite Sonics of the last 5 years have been the GBA/DS titles though I did enjoy Sonic Adventure/Adventure 2.

[Push Upstairs]

Actually i feel this way with Mario too, when he went 3d. I've heard New SMB is great, but still.. Mario in 3d isnt a true Mario game imo.

Ya know, i feel the same way. I can't really buy Mario 64 as a Mario game because i find the introduction of him punching, kicking, and butt-stomping enemies to be pretty mediocre. There was no real way to translate what made Mario good in 2D to a 3D setting and making Mario a "brawler" seems to have been someones solution.

Sonic really suffers from a similar fate in that his 3D games just aren't as fun as his 2D ones. That and the powers that be decided that his games needed to be some type of ensemble thing, which really kinda sucks.

The only 3D platform/character games i really enjoy are ones that were designed from the ground up for 3D.

[agbulls]

I would have to say this leaves me at a very interesting point of our discussion. We all generally agree that 3D has not been kind to Sonic, and has been average to Mario. Certainly, it has worsened other classics--most notabily Castlevania. Knowing that Castlevania SOTN will be coming to 360 via the arcade service (and the demand is there) is it possible we will see a future shift back to development of 2D on consoles? Or, is 2D the modern day video game equivalent to black & white?

The DS has been a haven for many of us--and with Castlevania: POR showing game design still has places to go 2D clearly has opportunities. I guess services like XB arcade and Wii VC will be places for this "medium." But I want full fleshed out 2D games running in 1080i. Are the corp board rooms really that afraid of taking this kind of chance? Seems so.

Just imagine...Street Fighter 4 with full 1080i in 2D. WoW.

[ubersaurus]

I would have to say this leaves me at a very interesting point of our discussion. We all generally agree that 3D has not been kind to Sonic, and has been average to Mario. Certainly, it has worsened other classics--most notabily Castlevania. Knowing that Castlevania SOTN will be coming to 360 via the arcade service (and the demand is there) is it possible we will see a future shift back to development of 2D on consoles? Or, is 2D the modern day video game equivalent to black & white?

The DS has been a haven for many of us--and with Castlevania: POR showing game design still has places to go 2D clearly has opportunities. I guess services like XB arcade and Wii VC will be places for this "medium." But I want full fleshed out 2D games running in 1080i. Are the corp board rooms really that afraid of taking this kind of chance? Seems so.

Just imagine...Street Fighter 4 with full 1080i in 2D. WoW.

I wouldn't go that far. Mario has had only two full 3d games released so far, and of them, one is widely regarded as fantastic, and the other as sort of average.

3d really only has been bad to sonic because Segas constant pushing of other characters. I understand they do this to lengthen the game, but really, what are the funnest parts of all 3d sonic games? Running through the levels with Sonic. Few people want to fish with Big, or go hunting for emerald shards with Knuckles. It's not even that they aren't sonic-if the other character's game bits are fun, and balanced well with Sonic, there's no problem. But they haven't been yet.

I see no shift back to 2d in the future on consoles, although it's still fine in the handheld realm. It's just as well-the 3d Zelda games and Metroid games have been fantastic. But really most of the older 2d franchises didn't go well into 3d simply because the developers didn't care that much to make something worthwhile. No one can tell me Capcom really put much effort into Final Fight 3D.

[TheRedEye]

Glad their pachinko division is pulling them through. Unfortunately they only have 30 titles with an average review score of 90 or above (http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/CompanyDetails.asp?sort=4). That's for the entire history of the company...

Yeah, and we all know how important enthusiast press reviews are to sales:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=7453

I'm not picking on you, I'm just tired of people screaming "bankruptcy" with absolutely nothing to back it up. Remember all the forums threads about how Nintendo is doomed and Microsoft is going to buy them?

[Nature Boy]

Honestly, no Sonic game has caught my attention like the Genesis ones. Those games were always about speed, and taking Sonic into 3D kinda ruins the game for me.

I've got Sonic Rush for the DS, but like New Super Mario Bros it feels like been there, done that.

I'm not anti 3D at all, I just can't get into a 3D Sonic game. I'll just keep going back to Sonic 2.

(Mind you I am very loyal to the games I absolutely adore. I enjoy the new Civ games, for example, but can't stop playing Civ II. Sames goes for Sonic 2. And Wario Ware).

[lordnikon]

I have been saying this for a while now, and many people here reciprocated this thought in the thread. It is true that the Sega of old is dead. The development teams have been dispersed and Sega is now shopping all of their First Party properties out to third party developers.

There is one very important aspect a lot of people seem to be missing:

Crap sells.

Just look at the majority of pop culture in general (ie music industry). The average consumer is not too bright and will swallow pretty much anything with the right marketing tactics. People do not go to WalMart and start looking for a fun, colorfull, innovative game that runs at a high framerate. They go and see Shadow holding a GUN and say "OMG look you get to shoot things, this might be good." Then they buy it.

Sega went all out with the Dreamcast sacrificing their entire company over the idea that making unique game titles would save them. They pushed for creativity and told their amusement devs to come up with fresh ideas. It was a golden age of new Intellectual Property. The Dreamcast scenario proves that quality games alone do not sell. If you want a repeat example, just look at Capcom, which I consider to be the second golden age of this generation. In the last 3 years Capcom has created more new IP's than any other game company on the market. What happened in the end? The same thing that afflicted Sega. Capcom broke up Clover Studios, and learned that developing creative original titles does not sell games. (Third example: Psychonauts...)

Companies have learned that the Electronic Arts business model is the way to go. Churn out a dirth of sequels, sports games, and muddy textured drab looking ports from year to year, and you are sure to make millions. Just look at Sega and Activision.

Even Yuji Naka left Sonic Team to pursue his own development studio! By purchasing the next generation Sonic the Hedgehog game you are buying a product that was not birthed from Sega's original creative minds. If you are a true Sega Fan looking for new releases, then please track down titles which were developed by original Sega first party teams:

Wii - Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz (Sega's R&D #1 aka Amusement Vision)
PS2 - Shining Force EXA (Co-developed: Neverland + Sega's R&D #1 aka Amusement Vision)*
PS3 - Virtua Fighter 5 (Sega's R&D #2 aka SEGA-AM2)
PS3 - Virtua Tennis 3 (Sega's R&D #2 aka SEGA-AM2)
PS2 - Ryu Ga Gotoku / Yakuza (Sega's R&D #1 aka Amusement Vision)
PS2 - Ryu Ga Gotoku 2 / Yakuza 2 (Sega's R&D #1 aka Amusement Vision)

*Shining Force EXA may be run just by Neverland now, a third party company who originally developed Record of Lodosswar for the Dreamcast. The original Shining Force NEO was co-developed in conjunction with Amusement Vision. However now the torch may have been passed entirely. Not sure yet.

(There are also a variety of arcade games already released on the lindbergh which have no announced console release. I do not know the specific developers off the top of my head, so I am not listing the games.)

So there you have it.

Do not get blinded by the Sega logo! Always investigate to see who is actually developing the games you plan to buy! Be smart!

[agbulls]

Lordnikon, very very well put. However, there is one thing to remember in all of this (and I think you were getting to it)...the videogame industry is no longer an enthusiast run hobby. Whereas we once were able to uniquely drive market trends based upon OUR purchasing decisions, gaming has truly spread to the masses. With this growing adoption, and new "everyone" consoles like the Wii, expect creativey to continue to be sparse. After all, studios strive now for that "EA" model. Ubisoft--even with quality software--aims to churn out the sequels. Now we're already seeing trailers for Ghost Recon 2 on 360.

So, in short, we have slowly become equivalent to the followers of indie films. We have high expectations, require new ideas, dislike most sequels and clearly view our preferred medium as art.

Sadly, the rest of the public views games at kid's toys. I can't wait till I'm older...maybe things will change if we're lucky.

[alec]

Its not modern gaming that has left Sonic as a relic, its Sega who has. A fresh new Sonic game that takes advantage of new hardware, yet has the charm of the Genesis games would be all they need to revive the series.

I think a lot of it has to do with the hedgehog switching genres to 3D platformer. IMO 3D platformers are the absolute worst genre of video games. The only games in this genre I would consider excellent are Mario 64 and Nights, which some only consider 2.5D. Other than that, all 3D platformers I've played are for the most part just barely passable, if that. That being said there are a lot of 3dp games I haven't played, not that I want to, but I might be missing out on some gems, who knows.

[DigitalSpace]

I've been hearing some good things about the upcoming Sonic game on the Wii. Hopefully that's a good sign.

[TheRedEye]

The problem with the console games is that they've painted themselves into a corner by trying and failing to give character and backstory to a simple iconic mascot, and the problem with the portable games is that they don't innovate (with the exception of the tricks system in Rush, which I think is the best Sonic gameplay mechanic since the spindash).

[Melf]

Sonic Team has had a hard time dealing with the transition to full 3D. Thats been the problem

I don't think they've had a problem adjusting to 3D, as games like NIGHTS, Burning Rangers, and Sonic Adventure were all brilliant. What's happened is that Naka and a lot of the people that made ST what it was are now gone, and all you basically have left is the name.

[KingCobra]

Sonic and Mario are just played out IMO, not that a newer game in either series couldn't be done right and in a modern way, but just let'em rest a bit.

Sonic is just to hard at blazzing speeds in a Free-roaming 3D world, plus the spin-off games aren't really Sonic, now are they?

[ManciGames]

I have been saying this for a while now, and many people here reciprocated this thought in the thread. It is true that the Sega of old is dead. The development teams have been dispersed and Sega is now shopping all of their First Party properties out to third party developers.

There is one very important aspect a lot of people seem to be missing:

Crap sells.
<snip the rest of this perfect analysis

Lordnikon, you have just put into words that which I have been thinking almost the entire time I was browsing through this thread. You have hit the nail on the head.

The bottom line is that unless you search out the "true" Sega games (great list there, by the way), you are just going to get the same drivel that the rest of these companies are pushing out.

I was looking at some of 2007's "big titles" and was left feeling very underwhelmed. Including the Wii...though the Wii is where I found the games I was a bit more excited about.

I think the bottom line is that gaming as I know and love it is changing. There will still be the occasional title for current systems that I want (on my Christmas list is Okami and Star Trek: Legacy), but for the most part, I can see myself buying only 6 games or so a year from here on out. I used to buy that many in just a couple of months.

The nice thing about that is that I am saving so much money, that I can afford to buy some more classic games, including those for the Neo Geo.

And I think that is key... The classics will always be there. And there are more games than I will ever be able to play in my lifetime. So, there is that. I am just so disappointed that I have not been able to see classic style games and impressive fantasy worlds created on these new mega-consoles with all of the power at their disposal.

I see games like "Mass Effect", and parts of it look like what I am craving, but then I see the shooter elements pop up, and I get bored. Can't we just have something like "Starfleet" (the old Amiga / Genesis game) with fantastic graphics and unusual worlds full of surprises to explore? Do I always have to SHOOT something?

Okay, sorry about the rambling. To keep on topic, I will just say that if Sega could kick out a 2D / 3D hybrid Sonic (like "Pandemonium" or maybe even the new Mario coming out for Gamecube), I'd be a very happy man.

[swlovinist]

Sonic Rush for the DS has been the last good sonic they have made. As good as Sonic Adventure was, it was not as good as the the originals. I would love for them to make a 2D sonic using current 3D models. I doubt I will ever see it though.

[Iron Draggon]

I think they need to release it for the PC... hopefully they will... Sonic Riders just came out for the PC recently, so there's a good chance Sonic will too...

[Nature Boy]

developing creative original titles does not sell games.

I think this argument is elitest trash. ("I like 'creative/original' games so I'm obviously smarter than you!")

Didn't Katamary Damacy sell well enough that they released a sequel stateside?

I'd consider Grand Theft Auto III be considered creative and original too, and I think most would consider *it* to be a financial success.

Just because Psychonauts failed to do well doesn't prove anything.

[diskoboy]

The DS is the only 'console' that you could say doesn't consider Sonic a relic.

In the past decade, it's been the best Sonic release (Sonic Rush).

[agbulls]

I want to get back to my initial concern I mentioned earlier...and that is the result of "corporate board room titles." And please, don't say EVERYTHING is now. We are getting games like the new Rayman. Even though I think there is a large chance that Sonic in 2D on a modern console would sell well (personal opinion)---corporate board rooms won't allow it. There is just too much financial risk--even with the lower overhead 2D provides. That is why modern 2D is relegated to the likes of XB Live Arcade...low cost of dev, low risk for failure and high potential profit. Poor sales of Ultimate Ghosts n Gobs and Viewtiful Joe isn't helping other companies, like Capcom, be convinced otherwise.

But, we aren't going to get big name games on this type of service. I more than welcome new names and their potential creative designs on XB arcade. Yet, this still isn't going to solve the problems that face companies like Sega and Sonic Team. I don't even know if I would go so far as to JUST blame the current members of Sonic Team. Yes, I think we can all agree they are likely LESS talented than the Sonic Team of old. But, they also have a TON of modern pressures (including the board room mentality, rising dev time, larger dev groups and holiday release windows tightening). I'm not taking them off the hook...believe me. I just wonder how RARE its going to be to see a GREAT title in the "next gen." Even companies with a ton of cash can't seem to make games you think should be easy blockbusters any good----Enter the Matrix anyone??

In short, I agree with what someone said earlier. We are probably going to get less good games in the future. If Sonic is not going to be reliable...what will be?

[MegaDrive20XX]

This is a very good topic. Has the beloved Blue Blurr, turned into nothing more than a Relic? Sure, he's Mario's rival. Yet he hasn't had a ground breaking sequel since...Sonic Adventure 2 I think? The Spin-offs have been coming in nicely, but where is the original gameplay that made Sonic 1-2-3 shine?

Sure we have Sonic Advance series, Sonic Rush, Sonic Rivals....yet nothing can ever achieve the honor of that to, Sonic The Hedgehog 2.

360/PS3 Sonic is pure eye candy by all means, but honestly feels like a remake of Sonic Adventure and Shadow the Hedgehog's guns blended into one.

Imho, the biggest issue with Sonic, is too many side-kicks/partners/etc. After Sonic Heroes, we all need to tell Sega "Hey more than 12 playable characters is overkill"

I just miss the days of just Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, and Dr. Eggman..that's all we need to enjoy the game series, anymore (i.e. SILVER the Hedgehog) would be downright silly.

[Push Upstairs]

I think Sega should have just stuck with Tails and Knuckles as secondary characters and that be the end of it.

The rest are excess baggage.

[Cryomancer]

I was always amused when people complaing about OMG TOO MANY NEW CHARACTERS. Not that I don't think there is merit in saing the new guys suck (they pretty much all do, i'll get into that), but think of it this way...

sonic 2 - tails
sonic 3 - knuckles
sonic cd - amy and metal
chaotix - assload of new characters (two from previous games)

I know for a fact one of the big selling points for sonic 2 and 3 were HOLY SHIT NEW CHARACTER. Maybe not so much on the others (MAYBE Sally. I mean Amy). So, there is a precedent of that being a positive thing.

But yeah, they've gotten out of hand and this point. The robots are ALL THE SAME and thus redundant. Did we really need three bird villians introduced? Couldn't they have used some of the villians they haven't used in ages (ie Nack, Tails Doll)? Why introduce new characters with convoluted origins (Silver, Blaze) when you still have many with NO story whatsoever (Bark, Bean, Ray, the leftover chaotix)? And why the hell did they make Eggman so serious and shit? he's like a generic mad scientist from a superman serial now (from what i've seen, haven't really played the 360 myself).

Why don't they just make an MMO and cash in on the internet's fetish for making recolor fancharacters while they're at it?

[segarocks30]

Yeah....Sega's been screwing up a lot with Sonic lately. I don't get it. They are making great other 3rd party games, but when it comes to their main franchise, they can't get the concept right. I have a feeling Secret Rings is the sonic of old though.......

Oh and AMEN to getting rid of mostly all the side kicks except Knuckles and Tails.

[Nature Boy]

Even though I think there is a large chance that Sonic in 2D on a modern console would sell well (personal opinion)---corporate board rooms won't allow it.

Personally, I think 2D fans are overly concerned with how many dimensions games are and not concerned enough with simply finding games they enjoy.

A 2D sonic game could work if it was done like Gradius V was done (i.e. 2D gameplay but surrounded by 3D graphics). Maybe. But I'd still doubt it. It's not like Gradius V flew off the shelves and I consider it my favourite PS2 game that happens to be 2D.

[cyberfluxor]

I hope Sonic continues to live, otherwise Mario is the last of the great mascotts for todays big companies. If Mario Galaxies bombshells at some point and Sonic fails who will be the next mascott for any company? Microsoft has Halo and GoW but no real platformer. Sony has Square Enix and other big games, but no Crash or anyone that's taken his place. I wonder if one day there will be no mascotts, just licenses being tossed out there for launch titles.

Oh wait, I forgot Link for the Nintendo... So I guess Nintendo still has 2 left from the casualities.

[agbulls]

Personally, I think 2D fans are overly concerned with how many dimensions games are and not concerned enough with simply finding games they enjoy.

A 2D sonic game could work if it was done like Gradius V was done (i.e. 2D gameplay but surrounded by 3D graphics). Maybe. But I'd still doubt it. It's not like Gradius V flew off the shelves and I consider it my favourite PS2 game that happens to be 2D.

No, I can't agree that fans of 2D are just solely concerned with the dimensions the games are played in. Realistically, I think we just want options. Some people like chocolate, some like vanilla. At least you get a choice. We don't have a choice with modern gaming. We JUST get 3D. And don't get me wrong, I love my 3D games. God of War and Rez Evil 4 are easily on my top 5 games of all time. But, with that said---there needs to be some variety. How many FPS games can dev houses churn out? I'm not asking for miracles here. Also, I don't think its fair to compare Sonic to Gradius. After all, Gradius is beyond a niche in terms of customer interest. I love it, but few gamers beyond our board probably even know that game exists. Sonic is a different story entirely.

:band:
In fact, Sonic could be a great way to re-introduce 2D to a whole new audience. If Viewtiful Joe couldn't do it, maybe Sonic's name recognition could...

[lordnikon]

Lordnikon, very very well put.
Thank you!


However, there is one thing to remember in all of this (and I think you were getting to it)...the videogame industry is no longer an enthusiast run hobby. Whereas we once were able to uniquely drive market trends based upon OUR purchasing decisions, gaming has truly spread to the masses. With this growing adoption, and new "everyone" consoles like the Wii, expect creativey to continue to be sparse. After all, studios strive now for that "EA" model. Ubisoft--even with quality software--aims to churn out the sequels. Now we're already seeing trailers for Ghost Recon 2 on 360.

So, in short, we have slowly become equivalent to the followers of indie films. We have high expectations, require new ideas, dislike most sequels and clearly view our preferred medium as art.

Sadly, the rest of the public views games at kid's toys. I can't wait till I'm older...maybe things will change if we're lucky.
Yes you are 100% correct and this is exactly how I feel as well.



Lordnikon, you have just put into words that which I have been thinking almost the entire time I was browsing through this thread. You have hit the nail on the head.
Thanks. I try my best :) I also agree with some of your points added in reply to mine.


I think the bottom line is that gaming as I know and love it is changing. There will still be the occasional title for current systems that I want, but for the most part, I can see myself buying only 6 games or so a year from here on out.
This is exactly where I am at. The next-gen game releases so far do nothing for me. I havn't even thought about getting one of the newer systems. There is no need for me to do so when there are only a handfull of titles I would be buying per year. So my leap to next-gen probobly won't happy for quite a while. Even then, I may only own 10-15 games tops for a specific next-gen system.


The nice thing about that is that I am saving so much money, that I can afford to buy some more classic games, including those for the Neo Geo.
Yea, instead of getting a next-gen console, I got a NEOGEO AES system. Modded with S-Video and Stereo out, as well as 5 complete AES carts.


And I think that is key... The classics will always be there. And there are more games than I will ever be able to play in my lifetime.
This I strongly agree with. The entire industry could go up in flames. The reality is that I own over 600 video games that are amazing titles, most of which are arcade games with near infinite replay value. While I am depressed that games like the Next-Gen Sonic are turning out poorly, I already own a stack of great Sonic titles on my existing consoles. The release of Sonic ont he 360/PS3 does not "break" Sonic Adventure 2. So, I think this is a very important point to remember. The great games still exist.


I am just so disappointed that I have not been able to see classic style games and impressive fantasy worlds created on these new mega-consoles with all of the power at their disposal.
Yea, I know what you mean. It seems to me that the new systems are wasting their potential. Instead of making well crafted creative graphics, the developers are too obsessed with making grass look "just like real grass" or a car that looks "just like a real car". *snoor* boring... This directly correlates to Sonic on the 360/PS3 where developers tried to create environments based on real world objects. Although the seed for this may have been planted with Shadow and even parts of SA2.





developing creative original titles does not sell games.

I think this argument is elitest trash. ("I like 'creative/original' games so I'm obviously smarter than you!")

Didn't Katamary Damacy sell well enough that they released a sequel stateside?

I'd consider Grand Theft Auto III be considered creative and original too, and I think most would consider *it* to be a financial success.

Just because Psychonauts failed to do well doesn't prove anything.
You are making false assumptions about the reasoning behind by comments. I do not play certain games out of insecurity to put myself in a position to belittle others. I play the games I like because I genuinly enjoy them. I do not own 90+ shmups/shooters because of some highbrow elitest philosophy about video game genres. I own them because I like to play them.

The point of my comment was that the average amount of creative, well developed titles that do sell well and make an industry impact, is very low. There are not enough situations like Katamari Damacy. There just isn't enough "artistic" creativity in video games these days.

I took the list of top 32 game releases sold during the Month of November 2006 in the United States.

I then parsed the list seperating the games which feature environments that mimic real-world objects. By this I mean games that intend to model a car just like a real car, or model grass just like real grass, or model buildings based on actual man-made structures.


NDS - Nintendogs (all 4 versions) - 380,000
PS2 - WWE Smackdown vs. RAW 2007 - 348,000
360 - Call of Duty 3 - 332,000
PS2 - Need for Speed Carbon (Regular + Collector's) - 300,000
PS2 - Madden NFL 07 - 250,000
PS2 - Need for Speed Carbon - 236,000
NDS - Nintendogs: Dalmation & Friends - 218,000
360 - Need for Speed Carbon (Regular + Collector's) - 180,000
PS2 - SOCOM: U.S. Navy SEALs Combined Assault - 156,000
PS2 - Scarface: The World Is Yours - 141,000
360 - Need for Speed Carbon - 131,000
XBX - Need for Speed Carbon - 129,000
360 - WWE Smackdown vs. RAW 2007 - 123,000
PS2 - NBA Live 07 - 117,000
360 - Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas - 111,000
PSP - Grand Theft Auto: Vice City Stories - 109,000
Wii - Red Steel - 106,000
PS2 - Call of Duty 3 - 106,000
360 - F.E.A.R. - 103,000
PS2 - Bully - 103,000
PS2 - Tony Hawk's Project 8 - 102,000

Next I pulled out the games which are based on outside intellectual property. Meaning games based on characters from other forms of media. Such as movies, comics, books, or tv shows.


PS2 - Marvel Ultimate Alliance - 174,000
PS2 - LEGO Star Wars II: The Original Trilogy - 106,000
PS2 - Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi 2 - 144,000

Now we are left with the games which feature both artistic / stylistic visuals plus video game originated subject matter.


360 - Gears of War (all versions) - 2,087,000

PS2 - Guitar Hero 2 (all versions) 996,000

PS2 - Final Fantasy XII - 895,000
NDS - Final Fantasy III - 148,000

NDS - New Super Mario Bros. - 141,000
NDS - Yoshi's Island DS - 138,000
Wii - The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess - 411,000
NDS - Pokémon Ranger - 205k

Out of the 8 titles, Gears of War is the only New Intellectual Property. All of the other games are sequels / ports from established franchises. Plus, half of the above are first party Nintendo products, with 2 more from SquareEnix.

I am sure there are people here who have gotten enjoyment out of any number of the above titles. However from an artistic, visual asthetic standpoint, the above list is incredibly depressing. This is what is driving the video game industry forward. It is trends like this that impact many of the franchises we love. Franchises like Sonic the Hedgehog:

THE HORROR... OH THE HORROR...
(http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2006/309/929717_20061106_screen009.jpg)

-Ben

[MarioMania]

talking about the Old Sonic Team..they did a great job on the games on the Genesis/Game Gear/Saturn/Dreamcast

As for the New Sonic Team...blah they messed up the GBA port of Sonic 1..I wish the maker of Sonic(forgot his name) Could take Sonic back

[Push Upstairs]

But yeah, they've gotten out of hand and this point.

That's why I think people are unhappy, the characters have reached a "quantity" instead of "quality" level.

It's "Sonic the Hedgehog" not "Sonic, Amy, Three other Hedgehogs, a Rhino, Two Crocodiles, Three Bat characters, Evil versions of good characters, Knuckles, another Hedgehog, alternate universe Tails, and a Kangaroo".

[agbulls]

Thank you!

THE HORROR... OH THE HORROR...
(http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2006/309/929717_20061106_screen009.jpg):devilish:

-Ben

What the? Why is Sonic holding a 12 year old girl? I want you to picture that scene in 2D and within Sonic 2. Its just wrong I tell you...WRONG!!!

[segarocks30]

What the? Why is Sonic holding a 12 year old girl? I want you to picture that scene in 2D and within Sonic 2. Its just wrong I tell you...WRONG!!!

Sickening. That's the only word for it. In both cases of 2 and 3-d.

[Push Upstairs]

THE HORROR... OH THE HORROR...
(http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2006/309/929717_20061106_screen009.jpg)
-Ben


What the hell is Sonic doing in a Final Fantasy game. :p


Am i the only one who was somewhat disappointed when they started having humans (other than Robotnik) in the games??

[Nature Boy]

No, I can't agree that fans of 2D are just solely concerned with the dimensions the games are played in. Realistically, I think we just want options. Some people like chocolate, some like vanilla. At least you get a choice. We don't have a choice with modern gaming. We JUST get 3D.

And people who loved Text Adventures JUST get graphics these days. Look, some genres die. Doesn't mean the games were bad. Doesn't mean a new game in the genre wouldn't move a few copies. It does mean that you're no longer in the majority, and complaining endlessly that Sony won't release PS3 Text Adventures on a system they're trying to push as next gen is falling on deaf ears (as far as Sony is concerned as well as myself).

You're better off accepting it and adopting new purchasing patterns rather than complaining about it. All you're going to end up doing is pop a vein or something.

[agbulls]

It does mean that you're no longer in the majority, and complaining endlessly that Sony won't release PS3 Text Adventures on a system they're trying to push as next gen is falling on deaf ears (as far as Sony is concerned as well as myself).

You're better off accepting it and adopting new purchasing patterns rather than complaining about it. All you're going to end up doing is pop a vein or something.

Believe me, I know no of us are in the majority. If you read one of my posts up a little earlier, you'll see I mentioned that. I'm just venting really. And no worry about popping a vein. In regards to changing my "purchasing patterns" ... what are you talking about? I already am incredibly picky about what I purchase. Any pickier and I WILL pop a vein. :o

With everything said, the medium has truly evolved. And, in the long run---there is only one winner...the almighty dollar. SIGH.:frustrated:

[lordnikon]

And people who loved Text Adventures JUST get graphics these days. Look, some genres die. Doesn't mean the games were bad. Doesn't mean a new game in the genre wouldn't move a few copies. It does mean that you're no longer in the majority, and complaining endlessly that Sony won't release PS3 Text Adventures on a system they're trying to push as next gen is falling on deaf ears (as far as Sony is concerned as well as myself).

If our comments are falling on your supposedly deaf ears, then why are you even replying? My comments are not meant for Sony. They are meant for these forums so we can discuss this. If agbulls' orginal topic really was falling on deaf ears, the reply count would still be at zero.


You're better off accepting it and adopting new purchasing patterns rather than complaining about it. All you're going to end up doing is pop a vein or something.

The idea that we should shut up, bend over, and take the industry's new agenda balls deep, is completly insane.

[ubersaurus]

If our comments are falling on your supposedly deaf ears, then why are you even replying? My comments are not meant for Sony. They are meant for these forums so we can discuss this. If agbulls' orginal topic really was falling on deaf ears, the reply count would still be at zero.



The idea that we should shut up, bend over, and take the industry's new agenda balls deep, is completly insane.

It's also the only way it's gonna go. Out of the millions of game players, a few thousand people who prefer old style games are a distinct minority that a large company like Sega aren't going to spend a lot of time wooing.

If you think the 3d games suck, don't buy it. Enough people do that, and Sega would have to address the problems in their franchise. Likely this would result with them making good 3d Sonic games. I'm sure it can be done-the Sonic levels from the Adventure games rocked.

[Jorpho]

What the? Why is Sonic holding a 12 year old girl?

And why are his fingers going through her legs?

[lordnikon]

It's also the only way it's gonna go. Out of the millions of game players, a few thousand people who prefer old style games are a distinct minority that a large company like Sega aren't going to spend a lot of time wooing.

If you think the 3d games suck, don't buy it. Enough people do that, and Sega would have to address the problems in their franchise. Likely this would result with them making good 3d Sonic games. I'm sure it can be done-the Sonic levels from the Adventure games rocked.
But I do not think 3D games suck. Nor have I expressed it anywhere in this thread.

You may want to read my previous replies in this discussion:

(1) http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1103210&postcount=23

(2) http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1104806&postcount=43

It is not a matter of dimensional mediums, but a matter of artistic vision and game performance. The problem with Sonic The Hedgehog (X360) is not that it is in 3D. The problem is it's gravitation away from style, and towards unoriginal environment geometry with murky/muddy textures. When you toss in broken gameplay mechanics as well as graphical anomolies, you have a once great franchise ruined by current industry trends. Which I give some evidence to in the latter part of the second link above.

I would also like to clarrify that one of the biggest problems is the propoganda used over the years to culture consumers into thinking 2D graphics and planar scrolling gameplay are somehow obsolete. 2D and 3D are simply different mediums. The concept of "old style" games as you put it is a stereotypical portrayal of certain genres. Take Gradius V on the PS2 for example. This game is not, as some reviewers like to put it, a throwback to a bygone era or a homage to the games of old. It is a video game in its own right, and there is no reason why scrolling games have to ride the back of the bus.

It is because of this bias that Sega would have a hard time making a side-scrolling sonic or streets of rage game using polygons instead of sprites. They won't take the risk.

[ubersaurus]

Nevertheless, Gradius V is looked upon in the mainstream as being "old style" because it's 2d. All 2d games are, simply because 3d gaming more or less superceded it in the mid 90s. The 2d gaming console era is pretty much dead, save for the niche audience that is still willing to give those games a shot, or simply like the genres in question.

Sega won't make a side scrolling brawler or platformer on consoles now, but it's not because of the graphics. It's that the majority of people don't want to play that kind of game anymore. I don't recall Gradius V, or Metal Slug 3 on xbox exactly setting the sales world on fire :P

It's just the nature of the beast. Before 3d games, it was 2d mascot platformers. Before that, it was maze games, and before that, it was space invaders-esque shooters. Some genres just become less popular, and the bulk of people aren't willing to spend the big bucks on em.

[ProgrammingAce]

http://static.flickr.com/91/244469459_db62773e4c.jpg

[agbulls]

It's just the nature of the beast. Before 3d games, it was 2d mascot platformers. Before that, it was maze games, and before that, it was space invaders-esque shooters. Some genres just become less popular, and the bulk of people aren't willing to spend the big bucks on em.

And now our #1 my popular genre is the 1st person death simulator. Yes, oh how the times change. A quick and highly simplified version of our gaming "preferred popular genre" history (dates wild guesses for sake of time):

Before 1970--- Board games -_-
After 1970---Pong and pong clones :monkey:
After 1978---Space Invader clones
After 1981---PacMan clones:roll:
After 1986---Super Mario Bros Clones ROFL
After 1996---Super Mario 64 clones :dance:
After 2001---Halo clones aka death simulators :2gunfire: :texaschain:

[Nature Boy]

If our comments are falling on your supposedly deaf ears, then why are you even replying? My comments are not meant for Sony. They are meant for these forums so we can discuss this. If agbulls' orginal topic really was falling on deaf ears, the reply count would still be at zero.

Not much of a discussion for a forum if I'm not allowed to reply with a contrary opinion.

We've had this discussion about a million times before. "2D games are great, why doesn't anyone make them anymore?" If all you wanted to see was a bunch of people going "hell yeah" then I'm sorry - I simply don't agree with you.

By "new purchasing patterns" I meant to suggest forgoing buying today's consoles that offer little to no 2D games if that's what you want. If that means primarily playing the NDS then so be it.

(BTW: The "why are you even replying" comment is a two way street - I don't mind reading and expressing differing opinions. If you don't like what I'm saying don't bother replying, it's no skin off my back).

[tom]

Title: Has modern gaming left Sonic as a relic?

So, Nintendo's been doing this for years and getting away with it.

[Daria]

And now our #1 my popular genre is the 1st person death simulator. Yes, oh how the times change. A quick and highly simplified version of our gaming "preferred popular genre" history (dates wild guesses for sake of time):

Before 1970--- Board games -_-
After 1970---Pong and pong clones :monkey:
After 1978---Space Invader clones
After 1981---PacMan clones:roll:
After 1986---Super Mario Bros Clones ROFL
After 1996---Super Mario 64 clones :dance:
After 2001---Halo clones aka death simulators :2gunfire: :texaschain:


You forgot the GTA clone.

[agbulls]

Well, I now feel the need to buy Sonic on the 360 and give everyone a fair and balanced unbiased review. Considering I never expected this topic to blow up like it has, I think we all deserve someone's opinion that HAS a long history with this franchise--and can at least put the game into perspective for the series' long history. After all, the large gaming sites have little to say except the negative and the demo isn't all that bad.

And so there you have it. I'm not going to CHANGE my purchasing patterns. I think that notion is silly to be honest. However, we can still vent about a desire to see different forms of our preffered medium. Do you think fans of indie films (on indie film message boards--they gotta exist, right?) have people saying...

"Look Bob, you just need except that "Long Lost Souls" is never going to win an Oscar or be popular. I recommend you start going to more Michael Bay films and really start contemplating your movie going decisions. After all, we can't change the industry by having opinions---so stop having them at all."

Ain't happening. And yes--I very much appreciate your opinion.

[alec006]

It really all depends on what type of gamer you are,the more i see sonic in 3d the less i want to play it. Now dont get me lying,Sonic Adventure 1 and 2,Sonic Jam (the 3d little world) were all good games. I Think one mistake was made when Sega put sonic in our world,why couldnt they just keep him on Mobius? Second,Shadow is great,very nice opponent for Sonic to face,hes fine,Metal Sonic,Great,hes good too,now theres this new silver dude.....yea.....i have no idea who he is but....hmm. Third they changed Dr Robotnic to Eggman......sounds like a kids name...but that was an original name so.....yea...they had to change it.Speaking of kids....the sonic series has become to kid friendly...making it kind of sappy in away. Finally..........Yuji Naka left right...........well if so you know Sonic games are going to get worst now cause of that. Well thats my opinion on it,now im going to go play my fav Sonic game of all time Sonic the Hedgehog 2 on the Sega Genesis ^^

[agbulls]

Alright, I asked for Sonic 360 for Christmas and got it from my mother-in-law. I got home late last night and popped it in with INCREDIBLY low expectations. For those of you wondering why I would have bothered actually asking for this, hit up some of my earlier posts. I will be giving a run down of the entire game, and will post 100% non-biased opinions. Don't think of this as a review per se--but rather of my opinions for other adult gamers who love Sonic.

Early Impressions/Intro:
The game starts with an absolutely beautiful cutscene that is almost reminscent of a Final Fantasy intro. A gorgeous cityscape surrounds a princess about to participate in some sort of ceremony. She has a preminition of a fire engulfing the city and hesitates. However, she goes through with the ceremony and guess what? Flame on baby! The entire city goes up in fire and Eggman (who I will still refer to as Robotnik here forth) shows up and talks about...Chaos Emeralds! Of course! Beyond the introduction of a princess the chaos emeralds are expected Sonic fare. Sonic then shows up and really wows you. The cinema ends with a quick flash to Silver who refers to the "Iblis Trigger."

If you have a recollection of the introduction to Sonic CD (and who can forget that theme song---Sonic Boom, Sonic Boom, Sonic Boom...) then you will at least appreciate the intro cinematic. This is the Blue Blur as you imagine he is suppose to move---crisp, with style and incredibly fast. Needless to say, you are very hyped to start actually playing the game.

You are given control of Sonic in the city after Robotnik steals the Princess. Apart from the most generic storyline since Mario Brothers, a couple things become instantly obvious:
*The first environment feels like Station Square from the Sonic Adventure games. At this point, I truly realized that this game IS and WAS intended to follow the adventure series in gameplay. After playing the first level (which I will go into in a bit) you will truly become totally dumbfounded as to why this game was not titled "Sonic Adventure 3."
*Controls are loose--but not terrible---as they have often been described. A good friend of mine (while playing the demo) put it in a totally different perspective: The controls in Mario 1 felt like you were on ice the entire game, but did you complain? No, you adjusted and got use to them. In fact, we debated a bit and came to the agreement that discussion over controls in games has not become a major issue until recent 3D gaming. We recalled plenty of 8bit and 16bit games with clunky controls. Yet, we accepted the controls as part of the games at that time. Obviously, this is a highly debatable topic. Back to the game...
*Graphics are nice and colors really "pop" on an HDTV. I am playing on a 50" Sony and have no complaints on the look of the game other than the generic looking townfolk. Can it really be that hard to give them some personality? This may be in the spirit of the Sonic Adventure games, but it is NOT the dreamcast Sega!!
*Voice acting appears to be GREATLY improved from Sonic Adventure 1 and 2.

You are instructed to meet up with Tails immediately after gaining control of Sonic. You speak with him, talk to a guy in town to get some shoes (more on this later)--and head off into the first area. This is called "Wave Ocean" if I recall correctly.

Wave Ocean
You get control of Sonic, hit a speed ramp and you're off. The controls continue to be a little loose--but are not a problem as I am not getting use to them. They are VERY similar to the Adventure games. You run in three to four large loops which appear to be very inspired by the intro to Sonic CD. You jump and attack a bunch of robots, hit a few checkpoints, bounce of a couple red springs and realize this isn't so bad. A quick warning---jumping into the water is instadeath. Sonic has never liked water, and this is no different. However, if you are a veteran gamer avoiding the water seems to be a non-issue (at this point). Camera has not caused any deaths so far...

Halfway through the level you grab a ride on a monstrous killer whale. This scene plays out as a remake of Sonic Adventure 1. Do you remember how you ran towards the camera as Sonic and saw the whale destroy the docks behind you? This is THE EXACT SAME SCENE. The only difference is that this looks much better. You still have the "sense" that you are controlling the scene (as you did in Sonic Adventure 1). However, as in the other Adventure games you're often just going along for the ride while Sonic goes into automatic mode. I'm ok with this---as it really does emphasize the character's sense of speed. But, why Sonic Team chose to remake a scene from the first game is way beyond me. Couldn't Sonic run away from ANYTHING else? Maybe this is more of a Sonic Adventure 1 remake...

After running away from the whale, Sonic screams for Tails to close the gate to the ocean. That way the whale can't escape. Why are you trapping the whale? I have no fucking clue. Maybe Sonic hates environmentalism. But, you're suppose to do it.

You gain control of Tails and soon realize his flight controls SUCK. Sonic's controls are acceptable and are in my range of "get use to it." Tails has the ability to fly by tapping and holding "A." But, you don't appear to have the ability to get him to land without running out of flying power. Arghhhhh. :frustrated: This is annoying but not anywhere near as weird as Tails' attack ability. He throws a fake ring box at his enemies. Yes. A fake ring box. That kills the robots. Again, I will ask...why? You are suppose to COLLECT rings. Not throw them. This concept is way beyond me from a logic perspective. So far, this tails segment was the worst thing I've played. I died 4 times trying to find the damn gate switch.

Eventually, I flew up high and found it. Click click. The gate is closed. You have guaranteed the suffering of a killer whale.

Wave Ocean Sonic Speed Rush Section
Howly Crap!!!!!! This is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too fast. I saw these sections referenced in some reviews but really was given a poor concept of how they played. Think of F-Zero on Gamecube with a TON OF OBSTACLES. You are moving WAY to fast to truly react to what is going on. I hit shit left and right, bounced Sonic into multiple enemies and should have died about four seperate times. But I didn't. The weird thing is that when you hit something you don't stop moving. These sections are on rails and NEVER STOP. When you make a mistake (and you will, believe me) Sonic "floats" and keeps moving. It is sort of hard to describe and pretty poorly done. Its almost plays like Space Harrier on crack with too many obstacles. Weird. O_O

From what I've seen, Sonic on the Wii looks a lot like these segments. This is a really great idea as it gets Sonic's speed across to the player. But there is just WAY to much happening. If you feel like driving a non-gamer farther away from gaming, put this in their hand. They will be totally confused and probably pass out from vertigo. Personally, I hope the later speed rush sections are better. This is a great idea that may just take me getting use to it. I definetly sucked at this segment. But I want to try it again.

I finished the first area with a "B" ranking and turned it off for the night. Glitchy? Yes.
Annoying in parts? Yes.
Pretty? Yes, especially the cinemas.
Fun? Yes--if you liked Sonic Adventure 1 or 2.
Potential? Possible. I'm a sceptic at this point. More updates to come. :)

[agbulls]

Bump for my extensive impressions.

[agbulls]

With Sonic coming out on PS3 this coming week, its time to revive the thread! Has anyone heard if bugs were fixed and load times reduced?

[shadowforte]

I did not like it. It just sad what they are doing to the game.

Bring back the Chao's!

[agbulls]

Sonic and the Secret Rings Topic TIME!

Ok! We now officially know two things:
1. Sonic the Hedgehog on the 360 sucks (read my impressions above)
2. Sonic the Hedgehog on the PS3 is just as bad

So, will Sonic and the Secret Rings revive the good old hedgehog? I will say, the extensive videos I've watched actually gives me a lot of hope. The perspective is locked, it JUST has Sonic (as we've all been asking for) and its real fucking fast. Whats not to like?

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict a 8.5 from IGN. Thats a little ballsy--I realize--but it does look that promising. If you don't believe me just watch some of the latest videos.

[theshizzle3000]

I think Sonic still has its place in gaming. I mean those of us that grew up with Sonic will still long for the nostalgia every once in a while and as long as they don't flood the market with crappy Sonic games our blue friend should stand the test of time.

[50s Brawler]

While I still play the Mega Drive originals, namely #1 and #2 (never really cared for #3), I have to say I just couldn't get into the 3-D Sonic games at all. I tried back during the hey day of the DREAMCAST but by Sonic Adventure II I just stopped caring. Super Mario IMO, seemed to make a better transition to 3-D wheras I didn't care for the on-rails-area approach to the 3-D Sonic games, but could see where the programming for something moving at blast processing speed (ha, ha, ha!) would be hard to control in a non 2-D enviroment. By the time "Shadow of the Hedgehog" was released, complete with the guy weilding an M1911 .45 pistol and AK-47 assault rifle... well I knew that it was dead to me.

Honestly I wouldn't mind seeing Alex Kidd or even Psycho Fox making a come back in 3-D as a SEGA mascot character, but seeing as how AK hasn't been seen since the early Mega Drive days and most never even knew about Psycho Fox... I seriously doubt any mainstream gamer would take to it, including the kiddies at that. Bloody shame really, I still play my Sonic and Sonic The Hedgehog 2 simply because that's were it was at for me.

[agbulls]

Anyone pick up Sonic and the Secret Rings today yet? I'm dying to know if its good. Gaming Age gave it an 85% and had some really positive stuff to say.

[Iron Draggon]

what I hate most about all the 3D Sonic games is the way that they change the perspective when you run through the loops... why the hell don't they let you run through the loops in first person? why change the perspective? it's not like a ton of other 3D games haven't allowed you to run through loops in first person before, even as far back as the 16BIT era... so why in this age of ultra advanced 3D technology do they change the perspective in the loops? it's the most retarded thing ever... modern hardware is totally capable of 360 degree rotation in any direction... so it's an insult to change the perspective

[agbulls]

1up has given Sonic a solid 7.5. Here is the review:

Sonic has quietly become videogaming's biggest celebrity train wreck: In his prime, he competed with Mario for game-of-the-year limelight, but these days he's a far cry from the mascot A-list. His waning stardom isn't the result of some explosive Mel Gibson–esque meltdown, but rather a steady decline into near-irrelevance. Sure, the kiddies and loyal fans stick with him through the rough spots (Shadow the Hedgehog comes to mind), but savvy consumers avoid his releases like the latest Michael Jackson record. Recently, Sonic's handlers promised a stunning reinvention with his eponymous Xbox 360/PS3 effort...but that slapdash 3D platformer crashed his 15th birthday with a disappointing thud, continuing a post–Sonic Adventure downward spiral. Luckily, we won't have to stick around to witness a rock-bottom career burnout -- Sonic and the Secret Rings shows a hedgehog who's definitely on the mend.

Secret Rings isn't exactly a triumph, but it's still a clear cut above most of the stuff we've seen on Wii. In the wake of all the recent PS2, PSP, and DS ports, it's encouraging to see that a from-the-ground-up Wii game can look really hot. From a purely technical viewpoint, the textures, polygons, and effects here demonstrate the Wii's step-up-from-GameCube graphical muscle. While nothing here looks like Gears of War or MotorStorm, some stages approach Resident Evil 4–level artistry, thanks to wise aesthetic decisions. Choosing to blanket the entire adventure in an Arabian Nights theme firmly cements the game's setting, lending the stages a cohesive look. You'll be pleasantly surprised, especially by the gorgeous final level. Sadly, the same cannot be said for the vocal-drenched soundtrack, seemingly performed by a local Winger cover band. Actually, had the composer simply stuck to cheesy butt rock it might have been more successful -- instead, each stage attempts a wildly different musical genre, butchering them all equally.

Perhaps all the singing (and we're talking every stage) is forgivable in lieu of the fact that Secret Rings is more fun than any other Sonic in years. The radically deconstructed gameplay has you steering the 'hog by holding the Wii Remote horizontally and tilting it right and left. Sonic's homing attack serves as your main offense, delivered via locking on and thrusting the Wii-mote forward. The controls feel a tad reckless at first -- Sonic's momentum takes some getting used to, and trying to go in reverse is a pain -- but become more natural and fluid as you get acclimated to the fast-paced, twitchy action. It's almost as if you combined a surreal, motion-controlled racing game with the tricky, pinpoint platforming of Super Mario Sunshine. Once you've crested that learning curve, the game's true design shines through: Expert play allows you to pull off long combo strings that send you hurtling through stages at breakneck speed...it's immensely satisfying, breathtaking stuff.

While none of the "normal" stages offer a daunting challenge, many of the game's other missions impose nasty criteria (finish with no rings, without killing any enemies, or without dying) that will surely test your patience. Some of these challenges are purely optional, but many are not...and the epic difficulty spikes they present may weed out the less dedicated players. Stick with it, though: You'll actually want to play through them to unlock a plethora of bonus content, and even the least forgiving challenges become easier once you've spent a few hours steering Sonic with the Wii-mote.

Although Sega deserves praise for Secret Rings' innovative single-player adventure, the less said about the four-player party mode, the better. It's another low-budget Mario Party rip-off that stretches out a few weak gameplay concepts into multiple multiplayer contests. Seriously, the haphazard canoeing mechanic barely works -- why make four different variations of it? A few bright spots (a clever violin-playing contest, catching fruit on skewers) don't make up for the poorly executed whole. Stick with the main game -- you can surely do multiplayer Wii-waggling better elsewhere.

[djsquarewave]

Anyone pick up Sonic and the Secret Rings today yet? I'm dying to know if its good. Gaming Age gave it an 85% and had some really positive stuff to say.
I picked it up today and have put about an hour into it so far. It's not bad, and is definitely more playable than Sonic Heroes was. Haven't played the more recent releases, though, so can't compare to those.

The controls work pretty well once you get used to them. For the most part...