A major blow against the PS3 in the eyes of racing fans [Archive]

njiska

01-05-2007, 12:59 AM

"Sony Computer Entertainment America confirmed that there would be no supported force feedback technology with its PlayStation 3. They told 1UP the following:

All PS3 games are programmed for the SIXAXIS which doesn't have force feedback, therefore the force feedback in the wheels won't be recognized."

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3156211

Lawsuit's a bitch ain't it? GT5 just won't be the same and after the solid first party wheel on the 360 i'm now looking even more forward to Forza.

Lothars

01-05-2007, 01:13 AM

agreed that really hurts sony IMO Forza will be great, especially with the wheel

Emuaust

01-05-2007, 01:21 AM

surely they will support the Driving force pro with GT5?
I mean its a logitech wheel
so royalty fees for the tech whouldnt be an issue shoud it?

njiska

01-05-2007, 01:31 AM

surely they will support the Driving force pro with GT5?
I mean its a logitech wheel
so royalty fees for the tech whouldnt be an issue shoud it?

Yes it would actually. See Sony is being sued by immersion for violating their patents. Sony clearly lost the lawsuit but insists on appealing it till the end (Microsoft settled ages ago). The terms of the judges ruling required Sony to pay something like $74 million and take all PS2's, controllers and lisenced games with vibration and FF off the market.

This is beleived reason why Sony didn't include vibration in the PS3, simplpy because they'd have to stop selling it, by law, if (more likely when) the lose their appeal.

So that means PS3 and PS3 games cannot support forcefeedback. It's all about Immersion, though Sony refuses to admit that.

And before anyone goes off on some wild tangent about frivilous lawsuits like the JPEG Patent or SCO Group, it's important to note that Immersion is a small company, Force Feedback and similar tech are it's bread and butter. They're suing Sony with just cause.

meancode

01-05-2007, 03:06 AM

surely they will support the Driving force pro with GT5?
I mean its a logitech wheel
so royalty fees for the tech whouldnt be an issue shoud it?

Right now, I'm thinking no.

FantasiaWHT

01-05-2007, 07:49 AM

What's stopping a third party developer from making a game that can use, say, an existing force-feedback wheel like one of Logitech's?

s1lence

01-05-2007, 08:37 AM

it's important to note that Immersion is a small company, Force Feedback and similar tech are it's bread and butter. They're suing Sony with just cause.

QFT, Immersion also sued Microsoft for the same features and Microsoft settled with Immersion so they could provide the function. I believe that the amount that Microsoft was liable for was in the neighborhood of 25 million and then they actually bought part of Immersion.

Sony actually lost the lawsuit and has ordered to stop selling PS2's as well as paying Immersion 94 million, but they are able to continue based on an appeal they started with the courts.

I wish Sony would just end it, Immersion has stated that rumble features could be added to the PS3 controllers but Sony refuses to settle.

Ed Oscuro

01-05-2007, 08:44 AM

Too bad Sony didn't pay their dues; now force feedback is gone from their products. Man, I can't really imagine PlayStation games (or anything next gen) without rumble, but there you have it...

hydr0x

01-05-2007, 08:48 AM

njiska

01-05-2007, 04:26 PM

GT without ff? bah, not for me, gotta continue playing GT4 then

what about PS2, games and peripherals? they are allowed to continue selling those, why's that exactly? i haven't followed that lawsuit at all so a short explanation would be appreciated

Beause Sony has appealed the Judges ruling the order to cease and desist selling playstations has not come into effect. That's why they can still sell the PS2. My theory is that Sony has just kept the lawsuit going long enough to get the PS3 into stores so they wouldn't have to pay lisences for future PS2s and could just take them off the market.

FantasiaWHT

01-05-2007, 08:08 PM

The appellate judge ordered a temporary injunction stopping the lower court's injunction against Sony selling PS2's, until the appeal is resolved

PapaStu

01-06-2007, 01:06 AM

Yes it would actually. See Sony is being sued by immersion for violating their patents. Sony clearly lost the lawsuit but insists on appealing it till the end (Microsoft settled ages ago). The terms of the judges ruling required Sony to pay something like $74 million and take all PS2's, controllers and lisenced games with vibration and FF off the market.

Microsoft only settled by buying 25% of the Immersion. They also knew they were going to get hurt negatively (money loss and probable pulling of their games and controllers) by not having the rumble in their controllers so they just bought part of the company and thusly were able to issue Xbox the rights to use the patented rumble parts in their controllers. Sony lost the lawsuit but won't give up the fight because if they do they then have to admit defeat to Microsoft, and if they kept up with the Dualshock controllers would be forced to pay Microsoft to use the rumble in the controllers. Sony just did what made sense to them on a business level, not pay their competition money for a functionality in a controller.

Sony will keep the thing tied up in lawsuits for a long while so they won't have to pay up to that ruling previously made. They won't pull off all the games and controllers made. Any business would do that to not loose everything.

Anthony1

01-06-2007, 01:43 AM

It's not about the small stake in Immersion that Microsoft owns ( I think MS already sold that small stake if I'm not mistaken) that's keeping Sony from paying Immersion. It's just like what Njiska was saying. Sony is going to endlessly string appeals together as long as they can, at least until having the ability to sell PS2 systems is no longer a critical issue. In another 3 years, Sony can afford to end the appeal process, and you will no longer see brand new PS2 systems or controllers on store shelves, but at that point they won't care.

Only problem with all of that is the fact that the PS3 still won't have any rumble, and I think this is the dumbest part of the whole equation. Because of Sony's stupidity, we as gamers are going to get shortchanged during this generation, and have zero rumble or force feedback with the PS3. It's a damn shame, and the fact of the matter is Sony could probably negotiate a full settlement and licensing deal with Immersion for around 200 million, but they won't pay the piper. They just won't do it. I'm thinking 200 million would pay off the settlement, and allow them to license the technology for the PS2, PS3 and a PS4, in addition to having Immersion co-develop with them a Dual Shock 3 which will have the same functionality as the Sixaxis does now, except with the addition of rumble.

p_b

01-06-2007, 03:37 AM

Because of Sony's stupidity, we as gamers are going to get shortchanged during this generation, and have zero rumble or force feedback with the PS3. Well, it's not as if you HAVE to buy a PS3, you know. You could get another console, and if enough people did, I'm sure you'll get plenty of games formerly found on the PS2/3...

Lothars

01-06-2007, 09:02 AM

But that's the thing I really like Sony and want to support them, which I will but I just wish they would get thier act together and settle with Immersion

FantasiaWHT

01-06-2007, 10:05 AM

Is Nintendo's rumble technology from Immersion? If not, doesn't that suggest that Sony would be perfectly able (maybe not capable, heh) to develop and patent their own rumble technology, or hire a third company to do it? I strongly doubt that most gamers would be able to tell the difference between "Immersion" rumble and another tech's rumble.

Porksta

01-06-2007, 10:11 AM

Nintendo also settled out of court.

davidbrit2

01-06-2007, 11:25 AM

So what exactly does Immersion produce, besides patents and lawsuits?

neuropolitique

01-06-2007, 11:35 AM

So what exactly does Immersion produce, besides patents and lawsuits?

http://www.immersion.com/

Iron Draggon

01-10-2007, 08:20 PM

OdSquad64

01-30-2007, 06:34 PM

jajaja

01-30-2007, 07:06 PM

well this seems like good news for PS3 racing fans: http://www.ps3blog.net/2007/01/30/steering-wheel-force-feedback-verified/
I'm not sure how reliable this source is exactly, but it doesn's seem reasonable to lie about something like that

I just read that myself actually :) Here is also a news story thats worth mentioning.

http://www.maxconsole.net/?mode=news&newsid=13952

njiska

01-31-2007, 12:04 AM

Ok the forcefeedback working around Immersions patents is cool, the forcefeedback that potentially infringes on imerrsion technology workingwith it is not so good from a legal stand point.

ProgrammingAce

01-31-2007, 12:09 AM

What's stopping a third party developer from making a game that can use, say, an existing force-feedback wheel like one of Logitech's?

Because sony has to sign off on any code that runs on the system. No signature, no run. If sony says you can't use rumble, a developer isn't going to risk their contract with sony over it.

Captain Wrong

01-31-2007, 08:18 AM

well this seems like good news for PS3 racing fans: http://www.ps3blog.net/2007/01/30/steering-wheel-force-feedback-verified/
I'm not sure how reliable this source is exactly, but it doesn's seem reasonable to lie about something like that

I'm glad someone in the comments mentioned it but force feedback is not the same as rumble. The Immersion patents thing is over rumble, not force feedback. Far too many people (including the media) seem to have these two confused.

AFAIK, they could continue to implement FF in racing games. That's not at issue here.

veronica_marsfan

01-31-2007, 08:27 AM

Yet another reason to NOT buy a ps3
(I am getting really disappointed here)

- too expensive for my poor wallet
- doesn't support vibration
- may or may not support my Logitech wheel

mydjsobad

01-31-2007, 08:28 AM

this is hilarious... Sony is prolly the richest of the big 3 console makers, and yet they're the only ones who still haven't settled out of court... talk about greedy... they deserve to lose this generation to their own blind stupidity...

You're kidding me right? Being number one in the market doesn't equate to being the richest. Microsoft has WAY more money to throw away (not that rumble is useless, I'm just saying in general) than sony ever will. With all of the profit loss they've been seeing in the past year, your statement definitely doesn't hold any water.

The biggest shame in all of this though, MGS4 without rumble. Travesty. I really do hope Konami decides to port it.

njiska

01-31-2007, 08:36 AM

I'm glad someone in the comments mentioned it but force feedback is not the same as rumble. The Immersion patents thing is over rumble, not force feedback. Far too many people (including the media) seem to have these two confused.

AFAIK, they could continue to implement FF in racing games. That's not at issue here.

Actually Captain you're half right. Yes Forcefeed back is not the same is rumble which is what the patent dispute is over, but what you need to remember is that Immersion owns the patent for Forcefeedback as well and they damn well aren't going to lisence that to Sony without settling the rumble dispute.

Nature Boy

01-31-2007, 08:58 AM

njiska

01-31-2007, 10:16 AM

Is it*really* that important? I've played Burnout Legends, both GTAs, and Syphon Filter on my PSP (which doesn't support rumble either) and, to be honest, I haven't missed it in the least.

Which isn't to say I blame somebody for not buying the PS3 because it doesn't support that feature (that's what being a consumer is all about), I just wonder if it *really* matters in the grand scheme of things. If/when Sony sells their millions of machines without the feature, would MS/Nintendo not consider leaving it off their next machine to eliminate a royalty payment?

Is rumble really that important? Solve the solution of how to hide your pitch from player two in a baseball game and i may just beleive you. Personally i think people forget about the many, many uses of rumble besides just simulating direct contact. I know it sure makes lock picking and similar tasks more fun simply because the information you need isn't being conveyed on screen.

As for Forcefeed back, which is what this thread is about, it is infinitely important if you want to race with a wheel.

veronica_marsfan

01-31-2007, 12:46 PM

I just wonder if it *really* matters in the grand scheme of things.

Yes. Playing Gran Turismo or Nascar w/o the "feel" of the road through your steering wheel..... is like watching your videogame through an interference-prone RF connector. It ruins the experience.

TurboGenesis

01-31-2007, 01:16 PM

Is it*really* that important? I've played Burnout Legends, both GTAs, and Syphon Filter on my PSP (which doesn't support rumble either) and, to be honest, I haven't missed it in the least.

It appears that only you and I feel this way.

I guess I am the only one who actually goes into option menus and turns OFF rumble. It never has been a big deal for me. I have and LOVE Gran Turismo 1,2,3,4, & HD - but have never needed rumble/force feedback in it and get this I use digital control! Come now, this is a RETRO gaming forum where we have found maxium enjoyment in NES, Atari and 16-bit gaming and these features were never around then. Sure it may enhance gameplay but it shouldn't be what makes or breaks a game.

jajaja

01-31-2007, 07:07 PM

For me rumble is not really that important. I play PC, no rumble there and i never missed it. I play NES/SNES/Neo Geo, no rumble there and i dont miss it. I played PSX when i came, didnt have rumble, but it was still alot of fun.

Rumble is just something that you get used to, but you can easily get used to no rumble too. Its a nice feature, but its far from a deciding factor if i want to buy a console or a game.

veronica_marsfan

01-31-2007, 10:15 PM

I have and LOVE Gran Turismo 1,2,3,4, & HD - but have never needed rumble/force feedback in it

As I commented, once you have a Steering wheel with force feedback (where you can actually FEEL the road), you don't want to go back to a normal controller. It's like downgrading from Component to fuzzy, interference-prone RF.

norkusa

01-31-2007, 10:41 PM

So true, VMF. I didn't really care about force feedback wheels until I tried a Logitech Driving Force Pro wheel on display at Best Buy with GT4. I was blown away by how realistic it felt. I was expecting to to be something like the Hard Drivin' arcade game but it was way better than that. Like when you are on the dirt roads...your wheel shakes violently when you are going over bumps in addition to the FF. I ended up buying one of the Logitech wheels later that week.

No way I'd ever go back to using a non-ff wheel (or a control pad) for driving games....just doesn't feel right using them any more.

Greg2600

02-01-2007, 12:27 AM

Depends on the game, but force feedback in a pc racing sim is a big advantage to not having it. I never liked the N64 rumble pack, but I cannot live without the FF in the Xbox.

Anthony1

02-01-2007, 02:07 AM

I like rumble when it's subtle. When it's overdone, it cheapens the experience and then I would almost consider turning it off. I was playing the Dreamcast the other day, and either my controller is messed up, or the rumble pak or whatever it's called is messed up, or the rumble just plain sucked on the Dreamcast. I was really irritated by it. But, on the Xbox and Xbox 360, I thought the rumble was very good. Same thing with Dualshock 2. Certain genres just don't seem right sans rumble. I have the import version of Motorstorm, and while I absolutely love the game, the lack of rumble is very much an impediment to the overall experience. It's a great game without rumble, but with rumble, it would have been that much better. It's just kinda sad really.