WTF is the deal with Germany? (Crackdown's getting the GoW, Dead Rising, treatment)

[diskoboy]

Seriously people?

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/01/05/crack-down-on-crackdown-germany-refuses-to-issue-rating/

First it was Dead Rising. Then Gears.

How is Crackdown more violent than these two?

Germany.... I'd start getting a little concerned with your government. They're going a bit overboard.

EDIT - And if I were MS, I'd begin double-thinking selling 360's in Germany if they're gonna ban every single game. And BTW.... Did Resistance get banned in Germany? Especially since it deals with WW2? A subject Germany likes to avoid?

[Xizer]

History tends to repeat itself, and Germany's fascist ways are returning.

World War 3 on the way?

[tom]

It's some dopeheads sitting at the German ratings boards. I mean they put River Raid on the 'index', meaning not allowed to be advertised, no sale to 'under 18s',....it's been going on since 1985...

Mind you, at least we didn't have any problems with the 'hot coffee' mod, it was even issued on Gaming magazine CDs (Bravo Screenfun, a gaming magazine for kids) for everyone to enjoy.

[heybtbm]

It's funny someone should bring this up. I work with a PhD. who is married to a German woman and often travels there (he's there right now). Their kids have dual-citizenship between the US and Germany. Anyway, I brought up the subject of Germany's strange censorship rules governing video games and movies.

He explained that Germany has this national attitude of disgust with anything related to violence. The "sins of the past" are still fresh in many German's minds, and they'll do anything to avoid repeating them. While we look back on WWI and WWII with a sense of victory and pride, Germans saw two generations of people simply disappear. They will do anything they can to avoid another world war. They seriously believe another European world war could happen...so they're not going to do anything to get people whipped up into a frenzy (like killing people in a video game). This has nothing to do with fascism or Nazis...it's the exact opposite in their minds. He went on to explain how different the state of mind of the average German is vs. and American. They just want nothing to do with killing.

Even German gun laws are extreme. He said it costs around $3000 to get a gun licence...which you have to re-apply every 6 months. These laws were designed strictly to dissuade the average citizen of owning any firearms (even just for hunting).

On a personal level, I think Germany is going a little overboard. They're eventually going to learn that hiding or suppressing your problems isn't going to make them go away for ever. All in all it's an interesting subject that I could talk about for hours...but I'll end it here.

[jajaja]

Crackdown might not be more violent, but its still a violent game. There was a law suggestion that you would get 1 year in prison for acting violent in a game hehe. A friend said that they only sold 200.000 360s in Germany. Dunno if its true, but if they keep banning the big titles it doesnt sound too unlikely. PS3 isnt out in Europe yet so they havnt banned Resistance, yet. Call of Duty games were released in Germany tho.

[FantasiaWHT]

Europe as a whole has a much dimmer vision of personal liberty than America. Especially in the realms of freedom of religion and speech.

[jajaja]

Europe as a whole has a much dimmer vision of personal liberty than America. Especially in the realms of freedom of religion and speech.

Thats so not true. Europe contains of like 40 countries and it totaly depends on which country you live in. America freaks out because of a little nipple, never heard of that in Europe hehe.

[heybtbm]

Thats so not true. Europe contains of like 40 countries and it totaly depends on which country you live in. America freaks out because of a little nipple, never heard of that in Europe hehe.

The quote you are responding to is talking about personal liberty, which has nothing to do with how different societies view nudity. Two totally different topics.

Americans still tend to hold on to "prudish" views on public nudity, but the average US citizen still has the more personal freedom than any European does. Plus, considering how fat Americans are getting, who the hell wants to see them nude anyway?

[Ed Oscuro]

He explained that Germany has this national attitude of disgust with anything related to violence. The "sins of the past" are still fresh in many German's minds, and they'll do anything to avoid repeating them. While we look back on WWI and WWII with a sense of victory and pride, Germans saw two generations of people simply disappear. They will do anything they can to avoid another world war. They seriously believe another European world war could happen...so they're not going to do anything to get people whipped up into a frenzy (like killing people in a video game). This has nothing to do with fascism or Nazis...it's the exact opposite in their minds. He went on to explain how different the state of mind of the average German is vs. and American. They just want nothing to do with killing.

Even German gun laws are extreme. He said it costs around $3000 to get a gun licence...which you have to re-apply every 6 months. These laws were designed strictly to dissuade the average citizen of owning any firearms (even just for hunting).

On a personal level, I think Germany is going a little overboard. They're eventually going to learn that hiding or suppressing your problems isn't going to make them go away for ever. All in all it's an interesting subject that I could talk about for hours...but I'll end it here.
Well, my concerns are that certain European countries are limiting their ability to deal with foreign policy issues - not that it's a worse view than ours. That's another story, really, but the aversion to violence makes its mark on all sectors of society.

Anyway, that is absolutely true. While of course different individuals have their own convictions and opinions about the validity of censorship and violence over there, I know one German (Schlauchi who visits the #cv channel on the Mandog IRC network) who is very much against real-life violence as a solution to anything.

It's like a nation of real-life Vash the Stampedes, although that can't be a bad thing on the whole. Nice country really.

[Pantechnicon]

But there's is a critical difference worth noting between Germany and America here. In America it's not the government imposing these restrictions. The ESRB in America is an independent review body. But Germany's equivalent - the Unterhaltungssoftware Selbskontrolle - is in fact an organization ran by the German government.

Modern post-Nazi, post-Cold War Germany has a long and proud history of state-imposed censorship of the press and the arts. Apparently the Germans like it that way, or they would have mandated reforms long ago...maybe gotten themselves one of these:

http://www.randomhouse.com/teens/firstamendment/images/FirstAmendment.gif

...which, as Americans know, can come in pretty handy.

Sorry if I'm sounding too much like the ugly self-righteous American here. I just get tired of hearing how sophisticated and enlightened certain Europeans countries are because they let you smoke pot in restaurants and they put tits on billboards, while agencies of the State are still actively censoring undesirable elements (as determined by the government, not you...) in movies, television shows, books, newspapers, videogames etc.


America freaks out because of a little nipple...

...and Germany freaks out because of graphically simulated violence. And both countries are absolutely convinced of the moral superiority of their reasoning.

[jajaja]

The quote you are responding to is talking about personal liberty, which has nothing to do with how different societies view nudity. Two totally different topics.

What do you mean? Both cases are about censorship.


but the average US citizen still has the more personal freedom than any European does.

Give me examples.


...and Germany freaks out because of graphically simulated violence. And both countries are absolutely convinced of the moral superiority of their reasoning.

Both are pretty crazy ye, but the sex thing is way more crazy. OMG a nipple on TV, Apcalypse next! I have much more understanding with the banning of violent games, but now it is alittle too extreme.

[tom]

Didn't Joan Collins quote: Oh I forgot, I am not allowed to say 'I love you' on USA daytime soap. Eh?

Anyway, UK bans books and also UK has a 'no nipple on adult magazine cover' practice,

censorship and banning happens in the USA (Frank Zappa fought against the censorship in music in the USA, some bands are still banned on USA concert stages, a lot of news items are banned or censored in the USA too (and what's worse, the Americans are not even told about this)),

Guns are illegal in Japan (imagine that Mr USA),

it's all over the world, not just Germany

[njiska]

Didn't Joan Collins quote: Oh I forgot, I am not allowed to say 'I love you' on USA daytime soap. Eh?

Anyway, UK bans books, censorship and banning happens in the USA (Frank Zappa fought against the censorship in music in the USA, some bands are still banned on USA concert stages, a lot of news items are banned or censored in the USA too), Guns are illegal in Japan (imagine that Mr USA), it's all over the world, not just Germany

Exactly, just different people find different things objectionable.

[cyberfluxor]

There's a reason I generally point more towards the internet for news, there's more than the government can censor and I'm not confined to 5th grade reading material (usually) like what's found in the paper.

On par with the topic however, it is up to those elected to "run" the country to decide what's best in the views of the people. Also the citizens living there have a choice of being where they are, although I doubt someone will move out of a country over a video game ban. I do agree it's overdone but it's their decision.

[FantasiaWHT]

Give me examples.


First two that came to mind-

France- Banning of students wearing any religious symbols (Cross, Yarmulka, Hijab, for example) in public schools

Germany- Preventing Nazi/Neo-Nazi types from expressing their views publicly, protesting, etc.

I never claimed America was better because of this, but it's helpful to put this recent news story about the video games in Germany in context.

[esquire]

America freaks out because of a little nipple, never heard of that in Europe hehe.

I guess I'd rather live in a country that gets bent out of shape over a nipple, than live in a country that is so concerned that if violence is allowed in a video game, the whole country will start goose stepping their way around Europe resulting in the death of another 62 million people.

Seriously though, that has got to be crazy school of thought to justify that type of censorship. I remember when Carmageddon came out for the PC, and the German version replaced all of the people with zombies, and the blood was changed to some kind of bluish green goo. Back then, I guess it was okay to kill zombies. But if what the OP is saying about Dead Rising is true, I guess zombies are now protected now too.

[jajaja]

I guess I'd rather live in a country that gets bent out of shape over a nipple, than live in a country that is so concerned that if violence is allowed in a video game, the whole country will start goose stepping their way around Europe resulting in the death of another 62 million people.

Seriously though, that has got to be crazy school of thought to justify that type of censorship. I remember when Carmageddon came out for the PC, and the German version replaced all of the people with zombies, and the blood was changed to some kind of bluish green goo. Back then, I guess it was okay to kill zombies. But if what the OP is saying about Dead Rising is true, I guess zombies are now protected now too.

I wouldnt live in either LOL I dont quite understand last WW2 comment there compared with a violent game tho.

Dead Rising is indeed banned in Germany, but its not just because of killing Zombies. It that was the case, Resident Evil wouldnt be allowed either. Soldier of Fortune (one of the most violent FPS games) was also sold in Germany, but sensored with no blood (possible to unlock with a unofficial patch). Violent games are sold in Germany, they dont ban all, but i guess there are different factors in the game that decide if its allowed or not.



First two that came to mind-

France- Banning of students wearing any religious symbols (Cross, Yarmulka, Hijab, for example) in public schools

Germany- Preventing Nazi/Neo-Nazi types from expressing their views publicly, protesting, etc.

I never claimed America was better because of this, but it's helpful to put this recent news story about the video games in Germany in context.

I dont live in France or Germany so i know if its true or not, but thats 2 countries. Europe isnt build up by those 2 countries. If you got to i.e Sweden (which is also in Europe) you can wear what you want. Therefor its wrong to use "Europe" as a synonym to each country thats in Europe. If something fucked up is going on in i.e France, you must say that "France sux", not "Europe sux".

In USA, are you allowed to go around in the streets and scream "heil hitler" and "death to all jews"? If so, its crazy, altho i hardly doubt that. Its not something i would call personal freedom either. In Germany you can say what you mean about the nazis, good or bad things. You dont go to jail for it. I have seen neo-nazi demonstration in Germany (in the news) so it do happend, unfortunatly. I'm not sure its illegal, but its very little of it afaik and that good.

[KeeperBvK]

Who said the Unterhaltungsselbstkontrolle (USK) was run by the government? There's only one guy from a national youth authority involved in rating the games. Alle other people involved in that process have no connection to the government whatsoever.

And the news about Crackdown not being able to get advertised is also just wrong. If a game doesn't get an age rating, it just means that it can only be purchased from the age of 18+ and that it can (CAN!) get banned by the Bundesprüfstelle für jugengefährdende Medien (BPjM). If this happens to Crackdown, it really has to lie behind the counter and any ads for it would become illegal.

As of now, everything's just fine. Stores will have it on the shelves (if they import it) and mags will promote it.

BTW: I think it's kinda funny how Singles 2 and Larry Magna Cum Laude both got an AO in the US...

Edit: Games only very rarely get forbidden in Germany. They "only" get banned, but they're still legal to buy. The only game that has been forbidden here over the last ten years or so is Manhunt...and any game with swastikas in it, so RTCW, COD and stuff just get those symbols replaced by iron crosses.

[eric nintendo]

but the average US citizen still has the more personal freedom than any European does.

Tell that to all my gay friends.

Bottom line, every country has certain issues in certain areas. I don't think the banning of violence is as bad as things like not letting somebody get married because of their orientation (and in essence, being openly hostile towards their way of life).

You could get ahold of a copy of the game if you wanted one bad enough anyway, thanks to the internet. Same with any movies or etc.

[Pantechnicon]

Who said the Unterhaltungsselbstkontrolle (USK) was run by the government? There's only one guy from a national youth authority involved in rating the games. Alle other people involved in that process have no connection to the government whatsoever.

And the news about Crackdown not being able to get advertised is also just wrong. If a game doesn't get an age rating, it just means that it can only be purchased from the age of 18+ and that it can (CAN!) get banned by the Bundesprüfstelle für jugengefährdende Medien (BPjM). If this happens to Crackdown, it really has to lie behind the counter and any ads for it would become illegal.

So the USK is not a government entity (I stand corrected) but the BPmJ is. Does this mean that the USK acts a sort of precursory censoring agency, recommending games to be restricted so that the BPmJ doesn't have to step in? Sounds like it only might be a matter of time in this case.

Bundesprüfstelle für jugengefährdende Medien = "Federal Office for Media Dangerous To Children", right? Ganz interessante. It sounds very, um, reassuring. We have nothing like that in the American government.

(/digs around a bit) http://www.bundespruefstelle.de/bpjm/information-in-english.html

Wow...As we say in America, "Ihre Steuerdollars sind bei der Arbeit hart."

[robotriot]

Seriously though, that has got to be crazy school of thought to justify that type of censorship. I remember when Carmageddon came out for the PC, and the German version replaced all of the people with zombies, and the blood was changed to some kind of bluish green goo. Back then, I guess it was okay to kill zombies. But if what the OP is saying about Dead Rising is true, I guess zombies are now protected now too.

Actually, they were replaced with robots, not zombies (not even humanoid robots). I should know, I played it back in the days. I'd say this is not directly censorship however. It's not government programners who take the violent game and alter it to make it seem more harmless. It's the publishers who don't want to miss out on selling their games on the German market, altering theirs voluntarely to avoid getting "no rating", which would mean less profit because it's more difficult to get ahold of the game for German gamers.

I do think however that the whole discussion going on currently (which was revived after a recent amok run in a school) is going way too far. I think it's ok to sell extremely violent games only to adults, but making it illegal to even own one of these games like some conservative politicians would like it is just ridiculous.

Also check out this video, it's not like the US doesn't care about the topic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIu3JMGxk3Q

[tom]

The most weird censorship had UK:

The BBFC censored Nanchukas, so every Bruce Lee (or any other Kung Fu film) had most of the fighting bits cut out, eg in Way of the Dragon, Bruce Lee's fight from behind the restaurant up to the baddie by the front door of the restaurant (fighting his way through the restaurant), only lasted 2 minutes (normally approx 15 minutes fighting).

Flashback had the table scene removed (Jennifer removes top and says: 'I fucked his brains out')

Spies like us had the Ninja scene totally cut, one minute they are in the woods, next minute the trees are on the ground (as if by magic).

The Exorcist was banned, so was Evil Dead and many more films on video.

Gotta love the BBFC :-)

Also, Pornography was illegal in UK (until the internet rendered this impossible to control), any legally imported Porno movie had all hardcore action removed (yes, weird but true), so a USA Porno movie lasted about 40 minutes or less.

In the UK, PC and Video games (usually PC and PSX), like Resident Evil or Gabriel Knight were cut and had gory bits removed.

[Berserker]

Modern post-Nazi, post-Cold War Germany has a long and proud history of state-imposed censorship of the press and the arts.

Generally, for the press portion of that statement anyway, you will find this true for most all of Europe. Yes, even in the UK. I find it an interesting juxtaposition really -- like there are aspects of standard faire for some of these countries that seem VERY liberal by our American standards, and the source of envy and example by some folks here, as I think you mentioned before.(i.e. "Our country is no longer the most free, THAT one is! *points towards Sweden*)

Yet, the fact of the matter is that if you are an establishment of press in one of these countries, and you print something that the government just absolutely does NOT agree with, they can(and do, and will) raid your offices, and confiscate whatever materials they see fit. For all of the problems I have with this administration, the one thing I hold dear and really the one thing pretty much unique to America, is that this type of thing just does not happen over here, or is not permitted to happen.

Does this mean that America is superior to these countries? Of course not. It's just a difference in the way things work. There are things they treasure about their countries just as there are things we treasure about ours, freedom of speech/press being one of them. The German folk who have spoke up here so far don't really seem to have a problem with it, so I don't really see why I should be getting up in arms, y'know?

[KeeperBvK]

"So the USK is not a government entity (I stand corrected) but the BPmJ is. Does this mean that the USK acts a sort of precursory censoring agency, recommending games to be restricted so that the BPmJ doesn't have to step in? Sounds like it only might be a matter of time in this case."

Since 2003 (or was it 2004? Can't remember) the BPjM (or BPjS as it was called before) cannot ban any game that the USK has given a rating (even if it is an 18+ rating), but even if the USK refuses to grant a rating, the game still doesn't necessarily has to get banned. First of all there has to be somebody actually asking to ban the game (usually some youth protection organisation) and then the BPjM has to decide on whether they ban it or not.
And believe it or not: Both the USK and the BPjM are attacked by politicians and other polemic anti-gaming-activists for being too lenient. Counterstrike for example has been discussed lots of times and quite some people wanted it to get banned, but the BPjM didn't after having listened to the point of view of some active CS-gamers.
God of War is anotehr good example: First the USK refused to rate it, so Sony wouldn't release it in Germany, but then after a year or so (without the game getting banned), Sony tried again and this time the game got an 18+ sticker.

...but well, yeah, I guess Crackdown might get banned. ^^
But please, guys: Don't mistake banned for forbidden. A banned game is still legal to have, buy and sell. Unless any pre-adult can hear/read/see it you can even still advertise it.
And another thing: There's no censorship except for swastikas and the likes (and REALLY sick games like Manhunt). Other games just get banned so advertising a game becomes way more complicated, but neither the state nor any other entity tells any game developer or publisher to change something. Of course the USK or teh BPjM inform them on why they refused a rating or banned a game, so the developer is free to alter the game to possibly reach more (younger) gamers, but if they don't want to, they're still free to sell the game as is.

[FantasiaWHT]

I dont live in France or Germany so i know if its true or not, but thats 2 countries. Europe isnt build up by those 2 countries. If you got to i.e Sweden (which is also in Europe) you can wear what you want. Therefor its wrong to use "Europe" as a synonym to each country thats in Europe. If something fucked up is going on in i.e France, you must say that "France sux", not "Europe sux".


Don't pull that BS. You asked me for examples and then I gave you some. I don't need to sit and list one example from every European country. My characterization of Europe is NOT, as you are implying, based solely on those two examples.

The fact is, that as a whole (although there are of course exceptions) Europe is both more socialist and more restrictive of individual liberties than America. Whether or not you believe that makes Europe better or worse than America is immaterial.

[Push Upstairs]

Spies like us had the Ninja scene totally cut, one minute they are in the woods, next minute the trees are on the ground (as if by magic).

I've never understood why the UK censors had a grudge against Ninjas.

[tom]

Yep, Teenage Mutant HERO Turtles, don't ask....

[jajaja]

Don't pull that BS. You asked me for examples and then I gave you some. I don't need to sit and list one example from every European country. My characterization of Europe is NOT, as you are implying, based solely on those two examples.

The fact is, that as a whole (although there are of course exceptions) Europe is both more socialist and more restrictive of individual liberties than America. Whether or not you believe that makes Europe better or worse than America is immaterial.

Er.. bullshit? My point was that many people in USA think that Europe is like USA, one big country. You gave examples for 2 countries, not for Europe.

Europe = Every country in the continent.
France = A country in Europe.

Actually you do need to list one example from each european country of you want to "Europe" as an example, else you must use the specific countries. If you say that 2 countries count for all of Europe you are pulling every country over 1 comb. The things you mentioned are localized. If you want to use Europe as an example you must find a thing that common in basicly every country here.

I'm not here to say that Europe is better than USA, im only questioning what was said earlier that people had more personal freedom in USA. Giving examples for 2 countries wont count for all of Europe.

[tom]

if Adolf would have had it his way, ONE country would be all of Europe :-)

[jajaja]

lol ye.

[Push Upstairs]

Yep, Teenage Mutant HERO Turtles, don't ask....

I guess in the UK, ninjas can't be heroic?


US: "He was a black ninja, seeking justice for those who killed his family".

UK: -CENSORED-

[jajaja]

US: "He was a black ninja, seeking justice for those who killed his family".

UK: -CENSORED-

Haha LOL

I also wonder why they changed Ninja to Hero. Its called TMHT all over Europe. You did have other ninja games here like Bad Dudes VS Dragon Ninja and Joe & Mac - Caveman Ninja (both came out in UK too).

[Lozza]

Europe as a whole has a much dimmer vision of personal liberty than America. Especially in the realms of freedom of religion and speech.

That is so untrue it's funny! America is the most uptight nation in the world aside from Korea & Muslim controlled countries. Germany is facsist and paranoid because of their history, but as a whole Germany is far more open as a society to homosexuality, sexuality, nudity, realism etc. America is a society of repression and degredation in more than a million ways. I remember when GTAIII etc. was very close to being banned. What do you expect from a country run and populated by fools and christians?

I've been to germany several times and lived in the UK for most of my teenage life and life in general is more "free" and "unrepressed" than America is every form such as Art, media, lifestyle. America just has guns.

Sorry if I'm offending some, but if so that's just proving my point.

[njiska]

That is so untrue it's funny! America is the most uptight nation in the world aside from Korea & Muslim controlled countries. Germany is facsist and paranoid because of their history, but as a whole Germany is far more open as a society to homosexuality, sexuality, nudity, realism etc. America is a society of repression and degredation in more than a million ways. I remember when GTAIII etc. was very close to being banned. What do you expect from a country run and populated by fools and christians?

I've been to germany several times and lived in the UK for most of my teenage life and life in general is more "free" and "unrepressed" than America is every form such as Art, media, lifestyle. America just has guns.

Sorry if I'm offending some, but if so that's just proving my point.

Actually you're just proving to be as foolish as the yanks. We're talking personal liberaty, as in what the individual has a right to do. America is traditionally more accepting of personal liberty not only in terms of gun ownership, but also acts of personal violence, criminal punishment, traffic legislation. Many parts of Europe are traditionally more repressive of these elements (especially traffic law) then the US, but more liberal in terms of sexuality and expression.

Every country on this planet has an opinion on what is acceptable and what isn't. In the first world it's unfair to claim anyone country is more liberial then another, because it's simply not that black and white. Different countries are more liberal on different issues, (Gay marriage, Religous involvement in state, traffic legislation, violence, executions, treatment of prisoners, dipiction of nudity, dipitcion of death, dipitiction of traditionally unsavoury elements, etc.) and that's just how it is.

Now stop this penis measuring over who is more liberal, USA or European countries because it's poiintless.

Oh an to make a point on something stated earlier, Europe may not be a nation, but EU memberstates do have to meet certains standards set forth by the Union and while that in no way works like a countries government, it does have an influence on policies of a large number of European countries.

[tom]

>>>>>jajaja said: I also wonder why they changed Ninja to Hero. Its called TMHT all over Europe. You did have other ninja games here like Bad Dudes VS Dragon Ninja and Joe & Mac - Caveman Ninja (both came out in UK too).<<<<<


Yes, for some reason, the BBFC never touched the 80s gaming media eg tapes, disks, carts (Speccy, C64, VCS, NES, SMS etc...), so Ninja's were perfectly alright in 'The Last Ninja' for example. Even featured Nanchukas.

[FantasiaWHT]

Actually you do need to list one example from each european country of you want to "Europe" as an example, else you must use the specific countries. If you say that 2 countries count for all of Europe you are pulling every country over 1 comb. The things you mentioned are localized. If you want to use Europe as an example you must find a thing that common in basicly every country here.


In that case, I now forbid you from ever mentioning "America" as a monolithic unity. You must now provide examples from each of the 50 states and the District of Columbia if you wish to prove any point about the United States.

[Berserker]

The only thing that keeps me from locking this outright is that there's actually a pertinent discussion going on above the fray about strange censorship practices.

So please, stop the trolling. Now. Don't force me to disservice a decent conversation because of you.

Take it to PMs or something.

[Magnum]

I remember when GTAIII etc. was very close to being banned. What do you expect from a country run and populated by fools and christians?The power of christ is insignifficant to that of the supreme courts. GTA would never have been officially banned. And if it were, the order wouldn't have lasted 3 months.


I've been to germany several times and lived in the UK for most of my teenage life and life in general is more "free" and "unrepressed" than America is every form such as Art, media, lifestyle. America just has guns.Almost all media is graded for content, but only public displays (which includes network television) are censored by law. Public indoor exibits may draw controversy on the grounds of hate speech or indecency but are rarely subject to government interference, and those cases are almost never constitutional. Nothing and I mean NOTHING for private home use gets censored by the government, with the exception of any child pornography that depicts individual children.

Anything repressive is purely decided by a diverse society. Sex devices were illegalized or were at least attempted to be illegalized in a southern state recently. But some forms of marijuanna usage and public frontal nudity are legal in a few counties, cities and metropolitans across the country.


Sorry if I'm offending some.please show it in the future

[tom]

i remember EGM complaining about Snatcher (Sega CD) being censored for the USA market, so it happens there too.

The US government censors TV, you're just not being told about this (I was told this by a UK person visiting the USA, he was watching the news (something about UK involvment in the IRAQ war), and he could not believe how the untruth about it was being told on USA television). So either it's censored or they lie to you in a big way, which is worse?

[Magnum]

i remember EGM complaining about Snatcher (Sega CD) being censored for the USA market, so it happens there too.U.S. citizens aren't governed by Konami of America


The US government censors TV, you're just not being told about thisThanks for the tip


(I was told this by a UK person visiting the USA, he was watching the news (something about UK involvment in the IRAQ war), and he could not believe how the untruth about it was being told on USA television). So either it's censored or they lie to you in a big way, which is worse?ignorance/opinion on the part of US media. A fact of life written in gospel

Take notice that 99.9999% of american liberals blame all of life's woes on FOX News and not censorship. I'll admit that I don't have a degree on the subject but the only concrete case of censorship I can think of that pertained to the war was when footage of flag draped coffins were not allowed to be shown on TV, and that was rather controversial. Yeah it's true there are always attempts by the military to sweep things under the rug whenever drunken teenagers are in wartime service. But if you ever watched Link TV you'd be inclined to agree that the government has no control over what information is released on television.

[jajaja]

In that case, I now forbid you from ever mentioning "America" as a monolithic unity. You must now provide examples from each of the 50 states and the District of Columbia if you wish to prove any point about the United States.

You are right that the 50 states have different laws, but USA is one nation. There is 1 president, 1 goverment, 1 constitution, 1 military, 1 flag etc. etc. This is not the case in Europe. Every country got its own constitution, president or king, flag, laws and so on.

If Bush does something, its something that USA does. Like, USA is in war with Iraq, its not Texas and Washington thats in war with Iraq, its USA. If Jacques Chirac (french president) does something, its France that does something, not Europe.

[tom]

>>>>>Magnum said: Thanks for the tip<<<<<

You are very welcome :-)

[Magnum]

http://www.nohomers.net/images/smilies/pac-man.gif

[smork]

I think there's alot of confusion going on in this thread between the term "censorship" and "items not being sold by major retailers" or "news not reported in mainstream media". The latter aren't examples of censorship (caveat: UNLESS the media outlets are the only way to receive news, which ain't true in an internet-enabled world, except perhaps in China) -- you are allowed in the USA to create the most violent or pornographic movie or game imaginable, just don't expect see it for sale at a big box retailer. In other countries this is obviously not the case, but I can't think of too many cases where censorship is completely dire.

For example, I'm living in Malaysia right now, which is a Muslim country. The officially licensed media (and yes, newspapers MUST have a license to print or else the publisher can and will be sent to jail) censores items constantly in the name "harmony between cultures and religions" or "preserving the morality of the state." BUT -- the internet isn't blocked at all -- things i can't read about Malaysia in a newspaper I sure can on the internet. In effect, the net is a very liberalizing force where the government tries to restrict.

Likewise with games and movies -- many are censored or banned, but you sure can get a pirate copy anywhere, or have them shipped from overseas, and customs cares not at all.

My point is, in our globalized world it's had to call anything truly "censored", or anything actually "banned", as in most cases it's easy for someone to get around such crude blocks on what you want to purchase.

And really, it's kind of ludicrous for anyone in the US or a European country to cry censorship when there is very little that can even nominally be called "banned content." I'm sure in Germany it's perfectly easy to ring up an importer and get your GoW, Dead Rising, or Crackdown, and nobody's going to break down your door for doing so.

[KeeperBvK]

"I'm sure in Germany it's perfectly easy to ring up an importer and get your GoW, Dead Rising, or Crackdown, and nobody's going to break down your door for doing so."

Of course not, since they're just banned and not forbidden. Any adult is perfectly legal to buy those games. MS just wouldn't officially release them in Germany due to the banning, but they still could if they wanted to.

[FantasiaWHT]

You are right that the 50 states have different laws, but USA is one nation.
There is :

1 president- CORRECT
1 goverment- INCORRECT- every state, every county, every municipality has its own separate government. You'd be surprised how little power the federal government actually has.
1 constitution- INCORRECT- every state has its own constitution, which vary greatly
1 military- INCORRECT- every state has its own (confusingly labeled) National Guard, which reports directly to the governor of the state, not the president
1 flag- INCORRECT (but not really pertinent)

[jajaja]

1 president- CORRECT
1 goverment- INCORRECT- every state, every county, every municipality has its own separate government. You'd be surprised how little power the federal government actually has.
1 constitution- INCORRECT- every state has its own constitution, which vary greatly
1 military- INCORRECT- every state has its own (confusingly labeled) National Guard, which reports directly to the governor of the state, not the president
1 flag- INCORRECT (but not really pertinent)

So if i shall contact the United State's goverment there are 50 different ones? I was sure that all states followed the 1776 (or when it was written) constitution. If USA is at war, can each state choose to participate? So USA have many flags? Must be damn confusing if you're going to salute the flag.. or flags lol. If you mean state flags that isnt really a flag of its own. Point is, USA is one country, Europe isnt.

This is a pretty pointless discussion tho. The whole thing started with someone saying that people in USA had more personal freedom than Europe. I asked for examples and got 2 things in 2 different countries in Europe, and as i explained earlier, those 2 countries arent Europe, they are 2 countries in Europe. Wouldnt it be much easier to just accept the facts that Europe isnt 1 country? Instead you accuse me of comming with bullshit. Dont know what your problem is, but i know that for some people its very hard to admit mistakes. I have no idea why tho.

[Fanboy]

Yet, the fact of the matter is that if you are an establishment of press in one of these countries, and you print something that the government just absolutely does NOT agree with, they can(and do, and will) raid your offices, and confiscate whatever materials they see fit. For all of the problems I have with this administration, the one thing I hold dear and really the one thing pretty much unique to America, is that this type of thing just does not happen over here, or is not permitted to happen.

The New York Times (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0D11FF3A550C718EDDAB0994DE4044 82) would like to disagree with you.

Op-Ed article by Flynt Leverett and Hillary Mann on redacted version of draft Op-Ed article they wrote for The Times, as blacked out by Central Intelligence Agency's Publication Review Board after White House intervened in normal prepublication review process and demanded substantial deletions; notes CIA officials told them that their original draft included no classified material, but that they had to bow to [the] White House...

On a similar note, if we look outside of the press, Rob Zacari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Zicari#Obscenity_prosecution) would like to disagree with you about the freedom loving nature of the religious right White House.

In April 2003, the premises of Extreme Associates were raided by federal agents....

EVERY government practices censorship.

Besides, to tie this into the OP, internet gaming stores really make the German laws irrelevant. Just because a B&M store cannot advertise/display the games in question, it is no consequence to order the game online. (I just read about the GoW "ban" in GamesTM last night).

[FantasiaWHT]

Jajaja, my point is that if you honestly believe somebody needs to prove a generalization about Europe as a whole by pointing out a relevant example from every distinct region (country) then you would also need to prove a generalization about America as a whole by pointing out a relevant example from every distinct region (state). America and Europe are close enough to be comparable in size, population, and diversity of cultures.

Even the basic rights provided by the federal constitution are treated drastically differently in different regions in America. Easiest example is the second ammendment, which protects the right to bear arms. States interpret this in very different ways, and the "gun culture," that many Europeans like to brand America with, ranges from one extreme to the other across the country.

Yes, you asked for "examples". I gave you examples and then called BS on you because you changed your tune and said I needed an example from every country. That makes it obvious from the beginning that you weren't actually interested in considering evidence contrary to your personal view.

[jajaja]

Well.. i agree that there are some simularites to a state and a country, but they are 2 different things and cannot be compared side by side. If so, would you say that USA is 50 countries? And what is the difference between a state and a country?

You (or someone else) say that people in USA have more personal freedom than Europe and give example in France that people arent allowed to wear something to school. If you go to the neighbour countries you're allowed to wear anything to school and the example you gave doesnt apply. So how does this affect personal freedom in Europe that you arent allowed to wear crosses to school in France? What if you live in i.e. Holland? Thats also in Europe. Thats why i "stopped" you earlier when you only gave 2 examples in 2 countries.

Btw, the population in USA is about 300 millions, in Europe its about 700 millions. If you travel through Europe you will see that many countries are like day and night.

[FantasiaWHT]

Bah.. you still dont get it hehe. You speak like Europe is like one big country like USA and that the countries are like states. Do you look at USA as 50 countries? If so, what is the different between a country and a state?

You (or someone else) say that people in USA have more personal freedom than Europe and give example in France that people arent allowed to wear something to school. If you go to the neighbour countries you're allowed to wear anything to school and the example you gave doesnt apply. So how does this affect personal freedom in Europe that you arent allowed to wear crosses to school in France? What if you live in i.e. Holland? Thats also in Europe. The population in USA is about 300 millions, in Europe its about 700 millions. If you travel through Europe you will see that many countries are like day and night.

If you want to belive that the states in USA can be compared to the countries in Europe, well.. ok, i'll let you belive that. There are some simularities, i agree to that, but far from all.

I think we can leave it at that last paragraph :) I think the variety between countries in Europe is at least comparable, although granted not identical, to the variety between states in the US. The oversight of the federal government in America is greater than that of the oversight of the EU for its member countries, but both are based primarily on economic control, not social control.

[jajaja]

I did a edit before you posted. And just for the record, i dont sit on alot of info on how it is in Europe with rules and laws, the same goes for USA. Thats why i asked question when someone said that USA have more personal freedom. I wanted examples to see if any of them applied to where i live.

I found this description with Google:


While the terms country (synonomyous with "State") and nation are often used interchangeably, there is a difference. A country is a self-governing political entity while a nation is a tightly-knit group of people which share a common culture.

[Berserker]

The New York Times (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0D11FF3A550C718EDDAB0994DE4044 82) would like to disagree with you.

Hi.


Rob Zacari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Zicari#Obscenity_prosecution) would like to disagree with you about the freedom loving nature of the religious right White House.

Ok, so I guess the point you're trying make with this is that the director of such films as "Forced Entry" and "Ass Clowns 3", having nothing to do with the press, would like to disagree with me about something I never said. Good work!

I was talking about freedom of press. You're talking about censorship of visual media, which is a whole can of worms seperate from anything I was talking about. Oh, and also "freedom loving nature of the religious right White House", which is an extremely vague and baseless argument either way you're cutting it. Did you just not see the "for all the problems I have with this administration,.." in my post? Selectively speed-reading through somebodys post and then hastily attempting to clammer together a rebuttal based on headlines isn't going to win you that many arguments in this lifetime, dude.

My point was that our level of freedom in the press exists not BECAUSE of the people in the White House, but in SPITE of them. And not for a lack of trying, either. And if they do they don't get very far, and there's usually a huge uproar, etc. We don't like our press being mucked with. Also, the CIA thing you quote delves into yet ANOTHER whole other can 'o worms, and one that I feel completely different and not-so-safe about, and that is the tendency of large press entities to censor THEMSELVES, simply from all of the upper-echelon ties and cahoots happening up in the wings.


So in summary -- Read better. Or stick to arguing with uninformed people.

[Lozza]

American TV is censored, but that's not the only problem with American TV, it's so infantile and fucking... wrong. America doesn't know what news is, doesn't know what film is and doesn't know what art is. America is a repressed country full of weirdos and religious fanatics and other assorted scum. A country with a rediculous murder rate, where you can't drink until your 21, but can buy a gun at 18.

America is just a shit culture, full of people that "think they know", republican gun lovin jesus worshiping bush bumming brain dead muppets!!!!!

[tom]

to tell you the truth, i don't understand USAs pro-gun culture either, must be going back to cowboy times, and Bush's a real one

[diskoboy]

to tell you the truth, i don't understand USAs pro-gun culture either, must be going back to cowboy times, and Bush's a real one


Maybe you should ask the Brits about that.

[diskoboy]

American TV is censored, but that's not the only problem with American TV, it's so infantile and fucking... wrong. America doesn't know what news is, doesn't know what film is and doesn't know what art is. America is a repressed country full of weirdos and religious fanatics and other assorted scum. A country with a rediculous murder rate, where you can't drink until your 21, but can buy a gun at 18.

America is just a shit culture, full of people that "think they know", republican gun lovin jesus worshiping bush bumming brain dead muppets!!!!!

Wow. Could we be any more narrow-minded? And where might we be from? Considering I (An american) started this topic talking against censorship. I'm not religious, and I didn't and would never vote for Bush.

And right - we have no idea what film or art is. That's why 90% of the movies out there come from Hollywood (In America...) The last good movie to come out of Europe in the past decade? Chilldren of Men. Oh, and since I don't know a damn thing about art - why do I have a masters in Liberal Arts? And why do I know names like Warhol, Lichtenstein, Monet, Picasso, etc. Yeah. We have no culture, whatsoever.

[Red Hedgehog]

American TV is censored, but that's not the only problem with American TV, it's so infantile and fucking... wrong. America doesn't know what news is, doesn't know what film is and doesn't know what art is. America is a repressed country full of weirdos and religious fanatics and other assorted scum. A country with a rediculous murder rate, where you can't drink until your 21, but can buy a gun at 18.

America is just a shit culture, full of people that "think they know", republican gun lovin jesus worshiping bush bumming brain dead muppets!!!!!

Wow. Could we be any more narrow-minded? And where might we be from? Considering I (An american) started this topic talking against censorship. I'm not religious, and I didn't and would never vote for Bush.

And right - we have no idea what film or art is. That's why 90% of the movies out there come from Hollywood (In America...) The last good movie to come out of Europe in the past decade? Chilldren of Men. Oh, and since I don't know a damn thing about art - why do I have a masters in Liberal Arts? And why do I know names like Warhol, Lichtenstein, Monet, Picasso, etc. Yeah. We have no culture, whatsoever.

Remember folks: Please don't feed the trolls.

[Lozza]

Wow. Could we be any more narrow-minded? And where might we be from? Considering I (An american) started this topic talking against censorship. I'm not religious, and I didn't and would never vote for Bush.

And right - we have no idea what film or art is. That's why 90% of the movies out there come from Hollywood (In America...) The last good movie to come out of Europe in the past decade? Chilldren of Men. Oh, and since I don't know a damn thing about art - why do I have a masters in Liberal Arts? And why do I know names like Warhol, Lichtenstein, Monet, Picasso, etc. Yeah. We have no culture, whatsoever.

There's loads of good films coming out of Europe, but you'd never know about most of them because they have no marketing in the USA and most never get released. La Haine never had a US release, and still to this day hasn't been released here. I (like most people that like good films) hate Hollywood. It doesn't do anything for film except make it big business while sucking all the art & origionality from it.

I'm not going to go as deeply into this argument as I could and I do admit that what i said came of as narrow-minded. I don't think that everyone in America is like that obviously! but there is alot of that. Just remember that all those artists you mentioned are European whether you know of them or not. America has very little in the way of art. But, this isn't the forum to discuss that sort of thing, BUT... If there were ever a game where you play as a rapist (as funny as it sounds!) or where you play as a terrorist bombing certain buildings with planes... You can bet they would ban it in the USA!

[Magnum]

A country with a rediculous murder rate, where you can't drink until your 21, but can buy a gun at 18.Do you know the laws of all 50 states because I sure as hell don't.

I'm not going to go as deeply into this argument as I could and I do admit that what i said came of as narrow-minded. I don't think that everyone in America is like that obviously! but there is alot of that.You clearly think most Americans are that way.


Just remember that all those artists you mentioned are European whether you know of them or not.Don't fellate yourself like that. Every single fucking person on earth who can read knows those names.


But, this isn't the forum to discuss that sort of thingNo shit


BUT... If there were ever a game where you play as a rapist (as funny as it sounds!) click Online Rarity Guide


or where you play as a terrorist bombing certain buildings with planes... You can bet they would ban it in the USANo court would have the legal right, just so you know.


America is a repressed country full of weirdos and religious fanatics and other assorted scum.

America is just a shit culture, full of people that "think they know", republican gun lovin jesus worshiping bush bumming brain dead muppets!!!!!That's worth just as much in racist hate speech as claiming that ghettos are full of tree swinging nigger monkeys, or saying that asians are barbaric warlords who all have sex with children, or saying and thinking that muslims are born wanting nothing more than to suicide bomb jews, or saying that aunt Bertha Lou, the 140 year old church lady is an architect of christian world domination.

It's worth every FUCKING cent.

It's seriously inflammatory. It's grossly ignorant. It's said for no sake other than to build your own graven image. And it's an obvious total lack of human compassion.

Take a look at yourself. Take a fucking look.

[lendelin]

As a German who has been living for 16 years in America and knows a little bit about politics (I have taught courses about the political culture of the two countries and compared them), I have only one comment about this thread: Oh Brother, please STOP!, and this goes for Americans AND Europeans.

You can talk about the non-rating of Crackdown, the silliness of the educational tyrants who like to dictate what should and can be played (with the same reasoning in both countries, only difference is that in America the clash of different opinions is sharper while in Germany the media is penetrated b dumb little journalsists who repeat dumb nonsense), BUT do not talk about Bush, the Iraq war, political culture, Germanys past, Joschka Fischer, and federalsism in both countries.

Try to avoid these topics because they are besides the subject matter AND it is embarassing becasue most of you have not the slightest idea what they are talking about.

[smork]

There's loads of good films coming out of Europe, but you'd never know about most of them because they have no marketing in the USA and most never get released. La Haine never had a US release, and still to this day hasn't been released here. I (like most people that like good films) hate Hollywood. It doesn't do anything for film except make it big business while sucking all the art & origionality from it.

I'm not going to go as deeply into this argument as I could and I do admit that what i said came of as narrow-minded. I don't think that everyone in America is like that obviously! but there is alot of that. Just remember that all those artists you mentioned are European whether you know of them or not. America has very little in the way of art. But, this isn't the forum to discuss that sort of thing, BUT... If there were ever a game where you play as a rapist (as funny as it sounds!) or where you play as a terrorist bombing certain buildings with planes... You can bet they would ban it in the USA!

I'm staying out of the flame war further (and this is highly likely to be locked soon with this junk being posted) -- but I would like to point out that La Haine indeed got a US release, and good reviews. I actually saw it in the theater. It's in the top 250 on imdb, the largest English language movie database on the web. Most prominent foreign releases get US releases, and many do quite well.

If you're going to hate a place, at least do so from some factual basis, rather than just based on what you think without any corroboration.

[Magnum]

Or how about not hating a place period.

I know the nature of what I said wasn't appropriate to these forums. And I NEVER make it a point to "be a troll" or "feed the trolls". And I know some of the American members were approaching that level of ignorance in how they viewed Europe.

But no one reached that level of hatred.

What this person said is DEAD SERIOUS material no matter where you're from.

Mister Lozza made inflammatory remarks about groups of individuals with no intent other than hurt and insult, and he was properly responded to. Ideas like the kind he has on nations and cultures JUST SICKEN ME. Especially if the person grew up in a free thinking modern society and had absolutely no excuse for being so WRONG.

And for the record, I know many other europeans on other message boards who wouldn't of let this man get off as easy as I did.

I definately agree that this needs to end very soon. But I think something decent should be resolved before the thread gets closed.

[GarrettCRW]

Either take a fucking look at yourself or kindly burn in hell.

Way to feed the flames, Dude! ;)

The problem we have here is that no one wants to admit that while Germany's ratings board is FUBAR, ours is too. In fact, no rating system is perfect, because it will always be based on subjective interpretations of what is or isn't appropriate. Most often, these decisions will be made by people supporting the status quo of a particular nation/group/whatever.

In America, this means that violence will get a bit of a pass (well, until you start getting into the area of gore), and sex (especially homosexual sex, especially if that homosexual act involves two guys, as opposed to, say, two gorgeous women) and religion (mainly Christian sects and Judaism) are subject to stricter scrutiny. Anyone familiar with Nintendo's censorship for the American market in the '80s should be familiar with these trends.

And speaking of such things, American media is much like German media in how it handles images of the Nazis, at least where children are concerned. We all know how Bionic Commando was censored for its American and European release (and how Nintendo missed the confrontation with "Master-D" in their sweep for objectionable material), and one of the last episodes of Dungeons & Dragons, "The Time Lost", dealt with World War II in about as frank a manner as possible on Saturday morning television, only to have what were storyboarded as swastikas replaced with iron crosses.

In fact, all countries have their own hang-ups that we find odd because we don't live there. For instance:

-Britain's aversion to ninjas (the re-naming on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, for instance)
-Nickelodeon's forced re-dubbing of Stilletto Mafioso on Dangermouse from an Italian-accented character to a Cockney-accented character (though his trademark saying, "Si, Barone!" is the same in the US and the UK)
-Japan's aversion to male and female genitalia in pornography
-Variances in words/gestures being vulgar in different countries (for instance, much of what Spike on Buffy or the Dreadnoks on G.I. Joe say are much more vulgar in the UK than in the US, with the former being intentional)

[Magnum]

okay..

parts of that last line were a little uncouth

[geneshifter]

Kill this thing please.

[diskoboy]

Yes - mods please close this topic. It seems to have spiraled out of control.