Someone finally said it: Factor 5 on the Wii...

[dethink]

Yeah, yeah...I'm not a "graphics are everything" person either, but I've been having that niggling feeling so far the Wii seems to be "coasting" so far as far as pushing the hardware at all goes...

Full article here: http://wii.ign.com/articles/762/762984p1.html

5. Resident Evil 4 was a beautiful GCN title. Rogue Squadron was doing things at launch that developers still haven't done on Wii. Why do you think that is? Are studios getting sloppy on Wii?

Julian: Yes. I'm so disappointed knowing exactly what the Wii can do -- and I still think nobody knows it better than we (no pun intended) [laughs]. I really have to say, boy, am I disappointed! They all have finally figured out, five years into the hardware's life cycle, how to do at least basic shaders and a rim light, but that's what everybody does. But I still don't see enough bump and normal-mapping, if any. I still don't see enough post effects, although you would have insane fill-rates with Wii. I don't see any of that. I was digging out Rebel Strike the other day and was looking at it, and we had some people who were visiting ask, "Why isn't anybody else doing this on Wii?" And I am at a loss. I really am.

[crazyjackcsa]

Didn't really enjoy that read at all. Why would he point to a Gamecube games to show what the Wii can do? And then to reference his own game, multiple times? I found it to be to much "Look at how great we are"

[sisko]

Didn't really enjoy that read at all. Why would he point to a Gamecube games to show what the Wii can do? And then to reference his own game, multiple times? I found it to be to much "Look at how great we are"

The point was that that stuff was being done in GameCube games, but it isn't being done in Wii games: which is entirely backwards. On of those two steps forward, three steps back kind of deals.

As for referencing his own game, the interviewer referenced it first O_o

[dethink]

Didn't really enjoy that read at all. Why would he point to a Gamecube games to show what the Wii can do? And then to reference his own game, multiple times? I found it to be to much "Look at how great we are"

Fair enough. I too think he's a little heavy handed in his wording, especially for someone who hasn't put out a game in...forever...but it's kind of sad that on hardware that's supposedly more powerful than an Xbox, we're seeing games that don't even compare visually to 6 year old previous generation launch titles.

I want to see Nintendo do well, but they can't just coast on the merits of a controller who's strengths truly have yet to be proven outside Wii Sports. It seems a lot of this generation so far is built on the hype/excuses of "untapped potential."

"Oh, the devs haven't really tapped the power of The Cell yet," or "Oh they haven't come to grips with the innovative new control scheme yet, so it's OK if everything looks like a sub-PS2 port," or "It's OK if my console melts down, look at GoW!"

;)

[swlovinist]

I think that Rebel Strike got alot of bad press, and it was one of my favorites. The two player of Rogue Squadron is one of my all time favs. As for graphics for the Wii, I am not worried. The first party stuff will be great, as well as the bizarre Wii exclusives such as Cooking Mama(which dont require good graphics). In time they will ultimately utililize what is under the hood. If anyone is worried, then buy a PS3 or 360 as well to have your bases covered. I see having two consoles out of the three being alot of gamers options...I see the Wii being bought as one of those.

[crazyjackcsa]

Hey Don't get me wrong, I agree with what he's saying, I think as most people do. Just not the way he said it. Furthermore, he REALLY pushes his bias and backs his current "employer" (Being Sony) I think at this stage of the game the Wii+360 is looking far better than the Wii+PS3.

[swlovinist]

Only time will tell, it is still way too early to determine. After the next holiday, that is when you will see a clear winner. The system wars have just begun. The new consoles have not been out 3 months. If we were to judge the 360 on the first three months, we would be foolish. Look at what is coming out this year for the 360. I think that this next 11 months are critical for all three systems. 1. Xbox 360 needs to come down in price OR offer a system version 1.5 for the same price(bigger hard drive). 2. Nintendo needs to make more Wiis, more controllers, and have software support this year to fuel their "positive word of mouth". 3. Sony needs to either have some killer games come out or reduce the price of their system to compete. Nintendo is riding on value and fun. As funny as it sounds, the price is really doing it for many. I still think the target price for a console is $299 and until either Sony and Xbox can offer a system at that price Nintendo is going to outsell them.

[Wolfrider31]

I get where the man's coming from, and there's no denying how underpowered the Wii is, but I'm not lying when I say I really really don't care.

Graphics matter.. kind of. There's a threshold for me, that once reached turns looks into a non-issue. For me, that threshold was reached in the 128 bit generation.

[swlovinist]

I agree with what you have said wolfrider31. I still think that Soul Calibur can compete with some of what we are seeing today. Sure 8 years later it looks better, but not that much better. The graphics improvements are very subtle this generation. This generation will be all about HD gaming and widescreen support, not to mention online gaming. Graphics do matter, but fun and easy gameplay will be a factor as well. The last couple of generations have built upon the previous gameplay aspects and have really become stagnant. Any innovation in gameplay gets noticed. The DS and Wii are examples of this. Sony and Microsoft also know that this is next evolution of gaming is HOW we play. It is kind of wierd that the Dualshock is 10 years old this year. While the controller design has obviously worked for a long time, I am open to change and see some new gameplay styles. I think there will be always a market for classic contoller setups, I think that there is a market for new innovative gameplay that gets people off of their ass and more interactive with games. The Wii is a big experiment, just like the DS was. If Nintnedo can deliver on software, then it will succeed. If not, it will just be another Gamecube.

[lendelin]

This is a very good answer and observation by Eggebrecht. No exaggeration, not too harsh words, and certainly not biased.

The reason why there is a discrepancy between the GC in 2001/02 and the Wii in 2006/07 when it comes to make full use of the graphics potential is a simple one. The GC was a top-notch machine, the Wii is two steps behind its competitors when it comes to processing power and graphical abilities. The GC tried to compete (and successfully did) with the best machines in the compartment for the best tools for graphics, the Wii is intentionally a toned down machine composed around the new control scheme for shorter games attractive for the casual gamer.

Should we really be surprised that developers do not emphasize graphics for such a machine and even fall behind GC-efforts? Nah.

I think that Eggebrecht as a developer assumes a certain basic minimal level in 2006 and expresssed his surprise that such a garphics level wasn't kept for a system which has more potential than the GC.

One thing I find surprising and a bit sad: I read around 15 interviews with developers before and after the Wii launched, and in almost everyone it was said that the Wii is a great innovative machine, but there is no intention to develop a game for it in the short run. Some time, later. It sounds like lip service.

The biggest challenge for the Wii will be to keep the software sales up at the level of the hardware sales. Casual gamers buy systems but spend less money for games and play less than the hardcore guys. Developers only follow suit when there is money to be earned, and N has to convince lots of developers that game sales won't be second rate. Dvelopment costs for Wii games will be very attractive, but I doubt that the price for Wii games can be kept at the $50 level.

[Anthony1]

For some reason, I keep hearing people say that the Wii is supposed to be a bit more powerfull than the first Xbox, but personally, I find that hard to believe. Far Cry on the Xbox is actually a very good looking game, but Far Cry on the Wii is an absolute joke. I'm just wondering where this whole "Wii is a bit more powerful than Xbox 1" stuff has come from. I mean, could the Wii do Doom 3 like the Xbox did? Or Half-Life 2? I just don't see it.

I'm happy playing Elebits and Wii Sports and Zelda, but make no mistake about it, the Wii is a GameCube 1.0, not even a 1.5. Anybody hoping Wii games are going to make a huge leap forward with their graphical quality in the near future is wishing upon a star.

[swlovinist]

The Wii has not been programmed for yet. Everything we have seen so far is either a cancelled gamecube game, tech demo, or launch title which are known to be rushed. I'll wait to judge the graphics when a game like Metroid 3 or Mario Galaxy come out. If I was to judge the 360 on graphics when it came out(using a launch title), I would say that it was no better than the Xbox in terms of graphics.

[dethink]

This is a very good answer and observation by Eggebrecht. No exaggeration, not too harsh words, and certainly not biased.

The reason why there is a discrepancy between the GC in 2001/02 and the Wii in 2006/07 when it comes to make full use of the graphics potential is a simple one. The GC was a top-notch machine, the Wii is two steps behind its competitors when it comes to processing power and graphical abilities. The GC tried to compete (and successfully did) with the best machines in the compartment for the best tools for graphics, the Wii is intentionally a toned down machine composed around the new control scheme for shorter games attractive for the casual gamer.

Agreed. I'm still amazed that even the most graphically intense GC games have almost zero loading time, or that it was covered up VERY well.

[j_factor]

The Wii has not been programmed for yet. Everything we have seen so far is either a cancelled gamecube game, tech demo, or launch title which are known to be rushed. I'll wait to judge the graphics when a game like Metroid 3 or Mario Galaxy come out. If I was to judge the 360 on graphics when it came out(using a launch title), I would say that it was no better than the Xbox in terms of graphics.

Gamecube had Rogue Leader, and Xbox had Halo. Why couldn't the new systems have equivalents?

[heybtbm]

When I read the title for this thread, I thought Rogue Squadron was coming to the Wii VC. I guess not.

[§ Gideon §]

When I read the title for this thread, I thought Rogue Squadron was coming to the Wii VC. I guess not.
The first thing that came to my mind was: "Finally. I'll be able to control a Tie Fighter with my wrist."

[MegaDrive20XX]

When I read the title for this thread, I thought Rogue Squadron was coming to the Wii VC. I guess not.

I thought that as well or maybe a "Factor 5" game was coming to Wii

[MonoTekETeA]

I figure this would be a good time for me to say in most cases, Video games age like a fine wine, both to be said for classic games, but to tie into modern times, the development of games.

As time goes on, developers will decided which road to take for the Wii, inivative ideas for the controller, or going taking the standard configuration and sticking to pushing out the best graphics the system has to offer. The final product will show, and the ones that offer the best of both worlds will be the most sought after, or at least under rated.
-Also pointing out the fact they will learn to code for the system, producing better quality products while using their time more effiecently.

[Anthony1]

If I was to judge the 360 on graphics when it came out(using a launch title), I would say that it was no better than the Xbox in terms of graphics.



That would depend 100 percent on which Xbox 360 launch title you were judging that on. If you had Kameo, Project Gotham Racing 3 and Call of Duty 2, then you would know that the 360 was a true next gen machine. On the other hand if you had Tony Hawk's American Wasteland, Gun and NHL2K6 you would think it was merely Xbox 1 games in 720p. Looking at all the launch titles for the Nintendo Wii, everyone is hoping against hope that all these games were coded 100 percent to GameCube spec, and that the true power of the Wii lies within and has yet to be tapped. I'm hoping the same thing, but I think that what we have seen so far, is pretty much what we are going to get. I'm sure there will be some programing trickery that will make the Wii games look a bit better, but it's obvious to me right now that the Wii is nowhere even close to the level of the original Xbox, much less slightly more powerful than it. Again, I will bring up Doom 3 or Chronicles of Riddick for Xbox 1. If you put either of those games on the Nintendo Wii they would look absolutely horrid, yet the Wii is supposedly slighlty more powerful than the Xbox 1. Yeah, right.

This is one situation where I hope to be proved completely and utterly wrong.

[Steve W]

To me, all the games in the Wii's line-up are GameCube games that got shoveled onto the new hardware. The only thing being developed by third-party publishers by the end of the GameCube's life were kid's movie/TV show tie-ins, and it looks like they got ported over to the Wii. I'm sure they weren't really upgraded too much, just for a kid's game that children won't be too concerned with the graphics quality of. The Wii still has a ways to go graphically, Nintendo just needs to stop porting GC titles and get their developers to stop being so lazy.

[klausien]

I'm sure there will be some programing trickery that will make the Wii games look a bit better, but it's obvious to me right now that the Wii is nowhere even close to the level of the original Xbox, much less slightly more powerful than it. Again, I will bring up Doom 3 or Chronicles of Riddick for Xbox 1. If you put either of those games on the Nintendo Wii they would look absolutely horrid, yet the Wii is supposedly slighlty more powerful than the Xbox 1. Yeah, right.

You might want to eat those words now. Most of the Wii launch software was either horribly rushed (Far Cry), didn't need "realistic" graphics (Trauma Center), was a tech demo (Wii Sports), or was originally a GameCube game (Zelda). There was also a great deal of licensed shovelware that would not have been programmed to ultimate graphical spectacle levels anyway. Publishers wanted to get as much product out as possible to capitalize on the predicted success of the system (anyone who thought the Wii wasn't going to be an enormous success needs to get out more). Unless you can see into the future, the above claim is totally ridiculous.

In the Wii's defense, ExciteTruck looks at least like an XBox game, and Zelda is one of the best looking GameCube games. One was hastily programmed, the other was for another system. If Doom 3 or Chronicles of Riddick were ported to the Wii with absolute care, from scratch, they would look as good as or better than the XBox versions. I think the benefit would be seen most in frame rate.

A majority of multiplatform GC games looked just a hair below parity with their XBox counterparts. The lack of online play was the real difference. Resident Evil 4 may be the best looking game of the last generation, and it was a GameCube game. On the flip side, God of War was a spectacular looking game, on inferior hardware. It all depends on the developer.

The Wii will continue to do well because, whether you'd like to admit it or not, the wand works and really has changed gaming in a way on par with the move from 2D to 3D. It will command a large marketshare, and in turn, developers will pour more resources into developing for it. The Wii will never touch the a/v capabilites of the competition, but its a sure bet that there are better visuals coming in the future.

[jajaja]

Publishers wanted to get as much product out as possible to capitalize on the predicted success of the system (anyone who thought the Wii wasn't going to be an enormous success needs to get out more). Unless you can see into the future, the above claim is totally ridiculous.

The Wii will continue to do well because, whether you'd like to admit it or not, the wand works and really has changed gaming in a way on par with the move from 2D to 3D. It will command a large marketshare, and in turn, developers will pour more resources into developing for it. The Wii will never touch the a/v capabilites of the competition, but its a sure bet that there are better visuals coming in the future.

True what you're saying, like UBIsoft spit out all those titles just to fill up with launch games to sell. The Wii is indeed a huge success, so far that is. Right now i'm not really going to put much time and efford into speculate what the future brings, but if i first have to say something about i would think the interesst will fade.

I have a feeling that the Wiimote will more of a normal thing and the "wow" factor will be gone. I think people in general will prefer the old style controller in the long run. I cant really imagine that a game that gets released in 2 years from for the Wii will get a "omg, this is crazy!" like reaction like Gears of War got for its gfx, just because of how the controller work in that specific game. On the gfx side, the games will definitly improve, but since the Wii is about as powerful as a Xbox the gfx and visuals have been seen before. Sure, some games will give a "wow" factor for its gfx, but i doubt it will give the same "wow" factor as i.e Gears of War gave.

I can be smashingly wrong or i can be 100% right. Its way to early to tell anyway, time will give us the answer in the end :)

[Anthony1]

If Doom 3 or Chronicles of Riddick were ported to the Wii with absolute care, from scratch, they would look as good as or better than the XBox versions. I think the benefit would be seen most in frame rate.




Step 1: Put the bong down on the table

Step 2: Slowly back away

[Leo_A]

You're the one that isn't using any logic by judging the Wii by its poor launch lineup of GameCube titles and rushed junk. Games like Resident Evil 4 already looked like Xbox titles, and the Wii runs at a higher clock speed than the GC with a lot more ram. It can easily surpass the Xbox with it's graphical abilities if properly used.

You should get into buying calendars and picture books anyways since you just want to look at pretty graphics.

[Anthony1]

You're the one that isn't using any logic by judging the Wii by its poor launch lineup of GameCube titles and rushed junk. Games like Resident Evil 4 already looked like Xbox titles, and the Wii runs at a higher clock speed than the GC with a lot more ram. It can easily surpass the Xbox with it's graphical abilities if properly used.

You should get into buying calendars and picture books anyways since you just want to look at pretty graphics.


Red Steel wasn't a GameCube port. Ubi Soft said in a number of interviews that they were going to do all they can to tap as much power in the Wii as possible. Have you played Red Steel? The bottom line for me is that I seriously doubt we are going to see some huge improvement in Wii graphics all of a sudden. Sure, the games will look much better than Spongebob and Happy Feet, but I don't think we are going to be seeing any dramatic improvements. I've heard repeatedly that the Wii has a bit more power than the Xbox 1, and that would suggest that it would have games that look far beyond the Xbox 1 from a graphical standpoint, and if that were to actually happen, then the qualtiy of the graphics would have to improve by such a huge margin from where they are now, and I just don't think that's going to happen. In other words, I'm not going to get my hopes up, just to have them dashed. Everybody should just accept the Wii graphics as they are, or they are in for alot of dissapointments in the future. I'm sure certain games are going to look quite a bit better, like Mario Galaxy and Metroid, but for the most part, what you see is what you get. Look at Conker's Bad Fur day on Xbox 1. Do you really think the Wii could do graphics like that? That's a Xbox 1 game, and the Wii simply couldn't handle graphics like that. I'm not saying the Wii's graphics aren't going to improve a bit, but it's been billed as better than Xbox 1, and it couldn't even do a Xbox 1 game like Conker's Bad Fur Day, so let's just drop the Xbox 1 comparisons shall we?

I can't wait to be proved totally wrong. That would be absolutely wonderfull, so I hope I'm eating a huge bowl of crow very soon.

[Leo_A]

Yes, the Wii can handle games like that.

[klausien]

Red Steel wasn't a GameCube port. Ubi Soft said in a number of interviews that they were going to do all they can to tap as much power in the Wii as possible. Have you played Red Steel?

Again, saying that something like Red Steel is indicative of the true power of the Wii is ridiculous. I agree that Red Steel is an ugly game, but I would also add that most of the resources used in its development were targeted on developing and refining a set of tools for programming the remote. Red Steel is a tech demo in much the same way that Wii Sports is. We really haven't seen a true Wii game yet (graphically) outside of ExciteTruck, which... what was that?... oh, yeah... looks like an XBox game.


Look at Conker's Bad Fur day on Xbox 1. Do you really think the Wii could do graphics like that? That's a Xbox 1 game, and the Wii simply couldn't handle graphics like that. I'm not saying the Wii's graphics aren't going to improve a bit, but it's been billed as better than Xbox 1, and it couldn't even do a Xbox 1 game like Conker's Bad Fur Day, so let's just drop the Xbox 1 comparisons shall we?

The Wii could absolutely do Conkers Bad Fur Day. The GameCube could have done it as well, minus the bump mapping, but that is available on the Wii. Conker, like all of the games you are comparing the Wii launch titles to, was a mid to late generation game programmed specifically for the XBox hardware. When a game is coded from the ground up to suit a particular hardware, extra care is taken to maximize what can be done with the hardware at the time. The two Metroid Prime games are about on par with Halo 2 graphically, and look much better than the original Halo. They are GameCube games. You are making some wild assertions that aren't even moderately reasonable. Even Capcom said Resident Evil 4 couldn't be done convincingly on the PS2, but it was. Where there is a will, there's a way. It comes down to much more than specs.

There is no denying that Nintendo may have skimped a bit too much in the graphical arena, but to compare what is essentially Fantavision & Kessen to Doom 3 is fuzzy logic. The only way we will see spectacular graphics on the Wii is if it continues to sell, and sell well.

If I remember correctly, you are a PS3 supporter who is quite vocal about the fact that you can't count the PS3 out because the next gen war has only just begun. That is a true statement. It is too soon to know. But, saying that the Wii can't even approach the XBox graphically when it is a souped-up version of a prior hardware that was just shy of on par with the XBox, more or less, is just as uninformed and hasty. Tool - 10,000 Days - Track 5.

[jajaja]

Looking at the hardware specs of the Wii i have no doubt that it will be able to produce Xbox gfx, but its yet to be proven ;)

[Garry Silljo]

I can't wait to be proved totally wrong. That would be absolutely wonderfull, so I hope I'm eating a huge bowl of crow very soon.

When are you going to run for office? It's cute how you rant on and on one side of an argument and then try and put in an ass cover like this right at the end and think it saves you later when your shit will inevitably be called.

More than enough evidence has been provided for now that you should be satisfied... at least any reasonable person would be. The argument is pretty much over at this point. No one can bring anything new to the table. Everyone is at the mercy of the developers to bring forth the truth.

As jajaja said, just look at the specs and you will see its obviously possible, it just hasnt been done. It's only a matter of time.

[§ Gideon §]

When are you going to run for office?

... should have been:


When are you going to run for president of SCEA

[lendelin]

I think the focus of this discussion is wrong. You focus on the graphical abilities and potential of the Wii instead of asking why developers don't make use of the full potential of the system. This was what the original big surprise expressed by Eggebrecht was all about, wasn't it?

Let's assume all of you who argue that the GC can produce graphics equal to the Xbox or even a bit better are correct. (I'm not convinced about it but let's assume it for a moment.) I argue it doesn't matter because it doesn't make sense for developers to put lots of effort into squeezing the last graphical juice out of the Wii.

Wii graphics will look always two classes worse than the ones on the 360 and PS3. Does it really matter if the Wii looks a bit worse compared to its competitors (PS2 standard) or a bit better (Xbox standard)? The Wii is a system build around the control scheme disregarding top notch processing power and graphics. This is what developers will focus on, and this is where the success or failure of the Wii will be decided. This is my answer to Eggebrechts surprise why developers neglect the grahical potential of the system and even fall behind GC graphics.

I'm very mistrustful that the Wii will succeed. Despite casual and hardcore gamers complaining that current games are too long and too complicated, in the end you have better possibilities on the two top notch systems. Everything which can be done on the Wii can be done on the two top notch systems from lenghth to gameplay with much better graphics, that means the only (and ONLY) aspect which sets the Wii apart is the control scheme....and so far what I read about games this won't fly to have penetrating mass appeal. The Wii will succeed as what it was intended -- as an offering to a niche market, as an additional machine to the two big ones.

[lendelin]

§ Gideon § you should be smarter than your comment. Only fanboys assume always that the others are the same kind and don't go beyond the fanboy level. If I remember correctly the accused Sony Fanboy (Anthony) and future president of SCEA predicted that the 360 will dominate the next years of gaming...which shows you how dumb and inappropriate your comment is.

[Daltone]

Despite casual and hardcore gamers complaining that current games are too long and too complicated

I want these people found and shot.

But oh yeah, I think he's right.

[heybtbm]

Even Capcom said Resident Evil 4 couldn't be done convincingly on the PS2, but it was.

You had me, then you lost me.

[Anthony1]

Wii graphics will look always two classes worse than the ones on the 360 and PS3. Does it really matter if the Wii looks a bit worse compared to its competitors (PS2 standard) or a bit better (Xbox standard)? The Wii is a system build around the control scheme disregarding top notch processing power and graphics. This is what developers will focus on, and this is where the success or failure of the Wii will be decided. This is my answer to Eggebrechts surprise why developers neglect the grahical potential of the system and even fall behind GC graphics.




For the most part, I agree with this take, but my original point was the fact that other people kept claiming the Wii's graphical capabilities were a bit beyond Xbox 1. I kept hearing it over and over. That's the only thing that I'm disputing. At this point, I frankly find it hard to believe that the Wii will prove itself to be clearly beyond Xbox 1 in graphical abilities.

All in all, it's not that big of a deal. I own a Wii myself, and I'm not going to sell it off or get rid of it or anything. Even though the graphics are lame, it still provides a breath of fresh air, and some different gaming experiences from the norm. When I said that I hope I eat crow, and that I hope I'm proven completely wrong about it's graphical qualities, I'm dead serious. I really do hope that I'm proven wrong, because then the Wii will be even more enjoyable for me.