What is the Cadillac of old computers (mid-early 90s)? For old DOS games, primarily

[crazybaconlips]

I've been futzing around with DOSBOX a lot, and I can never seem to get Ultima Underworld and System Shock to run properly. In fact, I always have problems getting games to run in DOSBOX, and lord knows I've tried. So what I've decided to do is perhaps save up some cash, and buy the best shitty computer money can buy. However, I know very little about old PCs (I like how I'm calling something manufactured 10 years ago "old"), and I was hoping that you guys could tell me what parts were the best, what computers you had that were freaking dynamite in the days of Doom, because I really want to play System Shock, and I've tried virtually every DOSBOX and VDMSound tip to no avail.

[Hardcore]

You'll want a Compaq, one of the old Presario series. Probably the ones when Win95 first came out. I used to work for a dealer that put them together.

[Trebuken]

You need to make a list of all the games you want to play and then build the PC to suit. If you go too old, you'll exclude some games, and if you go too new you'll be wasting money...

DosBox iss the best option (VirtualPC too if you can get DOS running under it well, I can't figure it out, VMWare is too expensive).

I was given a Pentium 2 233 Mhz laptop with Windows 98 that I use for many games, though I need a Dos boot disk to run DOS games.

If given the choice I'd go a little faster than this, at least 400Mhz. Grab a video card from the same era and max out the RAM (it's cheap enough for PC's that old) and your good to go...


I remember there were VooDoo graphic cards; I think you could even do SLI.

Soundblaster Pro at least, a Soundblaster Live might even work...

Sidewinder joystick...unless you can get USB in something that old...

It's a fun project...

[crazybaconlips]

Yeah, it'll be a trip. I'm hoping I could get this started for under a hundred. If all else fails, I'll just settle with a good Amiga collection, and Etrian Odyssey will be my Ultima Underworld.

[Jorpho]

I've tried virtually every DOSBOX and VDMSound tip to no avail.

http://vogons.zetafleet.com/viewtopic.php?t=97
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69578


DosBox iss the best option (VirtualPC too if you can get DOS running under it well, I can't figure it out, VMWare is too expensive).

VMWare is just as free as VirtualPC is.


Soundblaster Pro at least, a Soundblaster Live might even work...

This is a bit of a dicey issue, but in the end PCI SoundBlaster cards are arguably not as compatible as the ISA varieties, at least as far as DOS is concerned. But then, it can be argued that the nature of the circuitry means that the PCI cards will give you better sound quality.


Sidewinder joystick...unless you can get USB in something that old...

I don't think any USB joypads are supported in DOS either.


It's a fun project...

After you've messed with it for long enough and have amassed a huge pile of largely useless hardware and have dumped enough time and money into attempting to get perfect compatibility with a game from ten years ago, it stops being fun. ;)

Actually, there are all kinds of threads at http://vogons.zetafleet.com where these matters are discussed in greater detail.

[scorch56]

Jorpho's too humble to plug his own realm.. so I will:

http://www.the-underdogs.info/

Go there.. pick up some games.. and join the forum. If you have any problems or questions about hardware or software.. these are the guys to go to for retro-PC gaming. Nice bunch of people.. if you stay out of "political" discussions. ;)

[crazybaconlips]

Well, I am on a Mac nowadays. Which is one of the reasons I cannot use VDMSound (big frown). Oddly enough, when I did use a PC, I read the same threads on TTLG forums, and it still didn't work. I think I'll just stick with an Amiga, and try to futz with VMWare, if I can get it.

[Kitsune Sniper]

You'll want a Compaq, one of the old Presario series. Probably the ones when Win95 first came out. I used to work for a dealer that put them together.

I can't believe someone's comparing a Compaq to a CADILLAC.

I weep. :p

[scorch56]

I can't believe someone's comparing a Compaq to a CADILLAC.

I weep. :p

.. Amen. Anyone can easily build a "screamer" (for it's time) for a hundred bucks. Hell.. I'm using a PC from that era right now as my primary PC!.. homebuilt.

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

I was about to say that Amigas are the Cadillac of early-to-mid '90s computers, but I see that you already have one of those, so good enough.

As for PCs for DOS stuff, I agree with scorch, go homebuilt. Build it yourself and install the OS yourself. As for sound cards, go with something somewhat later than what you want rather than what was actually used in 1993, you'll save yourself from most compatibility issues. Video cards I wouldn't worry about unless you're looking at later '90s 3D. I had a Matrox Millenium video card in my computer that had for about 10 years until I got my laptop a couple years ago and it was great. It could even be made to sync at 15.75KHz for displaying on an RGB monitor.


...word is bondage...

[Jorpho]

As for sound cards, go with something somewhat later than what you want rather than what was actually used in 1993, you'll save yourself from most compatibility issues.

As I said, the opposite case can be argued. The DOS driver used for PCI Sound Blaster cards, for instance, seems to usually require expanded memory, which means you'll have problems trying to run a game that insists on not having EMM386 loaded. (Of course, games which are not so picky seem to run just fine with those drivers in my experience.) Even the reverb effects enabled by default in the ISA AWE32 can cause problems (example (http://www.mame.net/mamefaq.html#d08)).

[2Dskillz]

Does anyone still carry those sweet Packard Bells?

[calthaer]

It does not have to be a Compaq.

For the original System Shock, any computer that has ~ the following specs will work:

Pentium 200-300 MHz
Sound Blaster 16
128 Mb RAM or greater
any graphics card
MS-DOS 6.22 (THE operating system of the golden age of gaming - use MEMMAKER)

A computer with those specs should run it at the breathtaking resolution of 640x480 with everything turned up to the MAXXXXXX!

I did that and man...that was a sweet game to play. I played through it in 2004, and I finished it, which is saying a lot. There aren't many games I finish nowadays.

[Jorpho]

You'll also find people who think that memmaker was crap.

Also, the other flavors of DOS (FreeDOS, DR-DOS, even the MS-DOS 7.x from Win9x) do have various advantages; some people mumble about "compatibility", but I have never seen any reports to substantiate the belief that MS-DOS 6.22 is inherently superior.

[Jorpho]

Jorpho's too humble to plug his own realm.. so I will:

http://www.the-underdogs.info/

Go there.. pick up some games.. and join the forum. If you have any problems or questions about hardware or software.. these are the guys to go to for retro-PC gaming. Nice bunch of people.. if you stay out of "political" discussions. ;)

(Lest rumors fly, I only do some maintenance and post on the boards there. And the General Discussion forum largely terrifies me. ;) )

[Flack]

I've been futzing around with DOSBOX a lot, and I can never seem to get Ultima Underworld and System Shock to run properly. In fact, I always have problems getting games to run in DOSBOX, and lord knows I've tried. So what I've decided to do is perhaps save up some cash, and buy the best shitty computer money can buy. However, I know very little about old PCs (I like how I'm calling something manufactured 10 years ago "old"), and I was hoping that you guys could tell me what parts were the best, what computers you had that were freaking dynamite in the days of Doom, because I really want to play System Shock, and I've tried virtually every DOSBOX and VDMSound tip to no avail.

Two comments:

1, you're going to spend just as much time (if not more) "futzing" around with a real machine. While DOSBox isn't perfect, I was amazed to discover just how much I've forgotten about DOS configurations. Point-and-click for the win.

2, I don't know how long you've been saving but I see 10 year old PCs in thrift stores every day for $10-$20. I played Doom II on a 486/66 for a long time and it ran great. I have literally thrown away computers that would have run Doom II just fine that I couldn't get anyone to take. If it were me I'd pick up an old machine, get stuff working, and then upgrade any parts (soundcard, etc) that you're not happy with.

[Zing]

I was one of the hardest of the hardcore of PC gaming in that era. I was the idiot spending $280 for a 8MB EDO stick so I could have 16MB just to get smoother animation in one game that I owned. The equivalent of the freaks buying this OCZ RAM and GT7800 or whatever the new fangled Geforce cards are.

The peak of my old school gaming:
Asus T2P4 motherboard
Pentium 200 MMX cpu
64MB RAM
Matrox Millenium II video card
Voodoo2 3D card
8GB Quantum Fireball hard drive
Soundblaster AWE32 (with 2MB RAM added onboard)

The T2P4 motherboard was tested to be the fastest motherboard at the time and had stable 75/83Mhz bus speed overclocking. I ran at 83Mhz which made the CPU run at 250Mhz. Those Intel MMX CPUs ran so freaking cool. Even overclocked it barely got warm.

The Matrox Milleniums were almost the fastest 2D cards of the time. The STB Lightspeed 128 was the absolute fastest for non-3d-accelerated games like Quake and Duke3d. However, the Matrox cards had better DACs for higher refresh rates at higher resolutions, and also had 4MB of VRAM.

The Quantum Fireball drives were some of the fastest of their time. I tried a couple other "premium" drives from Maxtor, and I couldn't believe how slow everything but the Quantums were.

The AWE32 was an absolute must, as General MIDI was vastly superior to the FM synth crap on the SB16. Doom and Descent music in particular were uber in GM. Unlike the poster above, I never had to run any type of DOS driver for the card, since the hardware defaulted to the standard 220/5/1 Soundblaster configuration.

I ended up selling that complete system to a friend for $200. My current computer is the product of my final "hardcoreness" and top tier from that generation of hardware (Pentium 3 era). I had a newer system, but I donated it to the living room as our HTPC. It will be my last PC, as I plan on buying a Macbook this spring (as soon as Leopard hits) and not looking back.

[OldSchoolGamer]

Jorpho's too humble to plug his own realm.. so I will:

http://www.the-underdogs.info/

Go there.. pick up some games.. and join the forum. If you have any problems or questions about hardware or software.. these are the guys to go to for retro-PC gaming. Nice bunch of people.. if you stay out of "political" discussions. ;)


I've tried joining 2x but still waiting for a return Email to "activate" my membership......
Anyone else still waiting or are they known for taking their sweet ass time?

[Jorpho]

The AWE32 was an absolute must, as General MIDI was vastly superior to the FM synth crap on the SB16. Doom and Descent music in particular were uber in GM. Unlike the poster above, I never had to run any type of DOS driver for the card, since the hardware defaulted to the standard 220/5/1 Soundblaster configuration.

Huh? All the AWE32 cards were PnP, which means that you needed to have the Creative PnP config utility in your startup. Or so I thought.


I've tried joining 2x but still waiting for a return Email to "activate" my membership......
Anyone else still waiting or are they known for taking their sweet ass time?

You do not have to sign up or log in if you just want to download games. Also, look at the sticky threads (http://www.the-underdogs.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=46189).

[cyberfluxor]

I'm guessing you haven't gotten a computer yet for it. I suggest picking up an IBM when it comes to the older Pentium systems. Usually thrift stores are the ones that get these older systems from donations because pawn shops don't generally accept these old machines and online shipping costs more than the hardware!

I've been using a PII Gateway machine for awhile now for my DOS and older Windows games. I have a PCI 32-bit Soundblaster card that works with every game I own and runs Win98 SE. It's clocked at 400 Mhz with 320 MB PC100 memory and an 8 GB harddrive. It's also networked to hop online to grab updates and TCP/IP multi-player on certain games that support it. There's a PCI video card too that works great but can't recall ATM what it is. Although it's overkill for most older games it runs everything flawlessly and have been very satisfied with it. I also have installed 5.25", 3.5", 250 MB zip, and a 12x CD ROM drive for nearly any format. :)
Total cost: $8

[blue lander]

I'd avoid the old Compaqs, actually. The damn things use mostly proprietary parts that are difficult to replace (or upgrade) unless you get them from another Compaq.

Personally I'd just stick with DOSBox. I've never seen the allure of mid-90's computers, they're all just soulless gray identical boxes, and there's little challenge in setting them up. Older PCs from the very early 80's are much more interesting.

[OldSchoolGamer]

You do not have to sign up or log in if you just want to download games. Also, look at the sticky threads (http://www.the-underdogs.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=46189).


Thanks man! I Emailed for manual activation!

[Ed Oscuro]

Some random thoughts from me:

1.) Thift stores for the win. $100 (as was mentioned earlier in this thread) is way too much to be paying for a system unless you have a very specific need (i.e. I want to play Tomb Raider on a Voodoo 5 6000 - then you might have some problems).

2.) No brand of computer is uniformly great. Packard Bells aren't always awesome. Mine is a real pain to mess around with due to the insane case configuration (odd mainboard with huge daughterboard sticking straight up inside the case, as I recall). Even installing RAM is a major chore.

Thus, buy for the configuration. A regular old-fashioned tower is your friend.

3.) If you only want to play a few games, there may be solutions ready for you. $60 a year, for example, will let you play GameTap and they have a lot of DOS games and especially Win95-present titles working pretty well (but then some games aren't working so well). It may work for you - or not.

Also, if anybody wants them, I've got some old PC parts lying about that I should get rid of. Have a few 386-era motherboards, a few old power supplies, a lot of EDO RAM, and most of an old Compaq Deskpro. Anybody wants me to take pictures, I'll do it. Unfortunately shipping could be a problem, which is why I recommend thrifts (better yet, side-of-road finds, although I haven't verfied if the 486DX/66 I found that way works).

Oh yes - I recently bought a nice 5.25" drive off eBay. When I get 'round to it, it'll go in my new PC (and I hope it works - if not I'll put it in one of my older PCs).

[PentiumMMX]

For a PC, Anything by NEC.

Their PCs are built like tanks (Metal case!) and work great (I know, I have had the same one for 10 years, and it still works just as good as it did out of the box). I'd say that would be the true Cadillac of PCs, and would work good enough for what you're trying to do.

(I'll post a pic of mine if you want to see it)

[Ed Oscuro]

Oh, GREAT suggestion! :D They do make some great hardware.

I would try to counter with Grid but it's hard even finding a model with a color screen XD

[Jorpho]

I suddenly recall the good Mr. Trixter's lauding of the Dell Optiplex GXpro 200. It does sound like it has some nice advantages, and a 200 MHz Pentium Pro sounds like a good middle-range speed: fast, but not too fast.

http://www.oldskool.org/guides/oldonnew/friendlyboxes

[scorch56]

In the next few weeks I'll be building my new PC (hopefully.. if I sell my collection lot).. in the meantime I'm upgrading my old W9X box. I've been posting about my "graphics" problems here and over at Underdogs in the past. My W9X machine has been sorely lacking in the graphics department on account of it had a PCChips mobo with an onboard TNT2 (the ONLY mobo of it's era with an onboard Nvidia chip). At the most.. you can only dedicate 32 megs of your RAM to it.. so I can't even play some of the later W9X games (like X2 & Homeworld 2). A few weeks ago I got my hand on a brand new GeForce 4000 PCI card w/64 megs and trying to install it on this mobo turned into a nightmare. In the end.. it was the fact that I ALREADY had an Nvidia chip onboard that doomed me. There was no way to actually disable the onboard chip, so the two sets of Nvidia drivers conflicted. I tried everything.

So last night I bought another mobo.. it's a Gigabyte that still supports my 800Mhz 133 FSB processor and will accomodate my 512 megs of PC-133 RAM (Crucial - CL2). I also acuired an 80 gig ATA 100 WD Caviar a few weeks ago (the limited edition one w/8 meg cache and 7200 RPM). This new mobo should accomodate all this stuff just fine including my new PCI vid card (even though it's got an AGP slot and onboard Intel graphics which CAN be disabled). When I get it set up (in a new case because the old mobo is a mATX in a small case) in my "Demon" full-size that I've had laying around for 3 years.. but brand new.. this will be my final, maxed out W9X box; should be a screamer.

I'm also planning to use it as my DOS box for now.. but I'll have to most definitely use some slowdown utilities in DOS 7.0. Later on.. I plan to get an old, old laptop with a color screen strictly for DOS games and put nothing but 6.22 on it.

BTW.. I'm also going to drop a Soundblaster Live Gamer in it (although this mobo DOES have an onboard Creative sound chip.. imagine that.. another "oddity") AND.. my two 12 meg Voodoo 2's in SLI. I bought two 8 meg Voodoo 2's at first.. but was dismayed to find out that 2-8 meggers in SLI still can't do 1024 X 768.. so I got the two 12's. I'll post pictures when I'm done.. it'll look awesome. My case is a custom w/windows & lights (blue/red as I recall) the mobo is blue, the GF is blue, and the two Voodoos and SB Live are black. It'll be the first mod-case I've ever had. It was the case I was going to use for my new computer.. but I've decided to go subtle on it.. probably solid black since I'm building it to be an HTPC basically.

I'll probably get rid of the PCChips mobo.. I don't need it anymore and it would still make a good W9X/DOS box for someone.. the TNT2 still makes a good video solution for most W9X games up until the "Medal of Honor" era (That's when this board started coming up short). It also has onboard sound.. though it's a Crystal chip. The board I just bought comes with an 866Mhz CPU but the seller doesn't know if it's an EB model (as in 133 FSB).. either way.. I'll be getting rid of one of the CPUs.. and I STILL have both of those 8 meg Voodoo 2's. Some RAM is coming with the board but I don't know if it's 100 or 133.

Besides DOS.. I'm hoping I can get some decent N64 and PSX emulators up and finally running; and maybe DOSBox will run better as well.

BTW.. the original System Shock needed 128 megs of RAM?! Are you sure?

[c0ldb33r]

For a PC, Anything by NEC.
...

(I'll post a pic of mine if you want to see it)
Please do :)

[PentiumMMX]

Here's my PC, like you asked:

http://x10.xanga.com/10c876e41913120319555/b14553409.jpg

(Don't get online with it anymore, but I used to. I use a more powerful PC for internet surfing)

[s1lence]

I just built my own old machine out of parts I had laying around my house. Voodoo 3 video card, P200 processor, SB16 sound, it rocks the old games. If I need a better card I have a voodoo 4 and 5 sitting around as well.

[Jorpho]

Say, do we have a thread about the new DOSBox version 0.70 ? Perhaps we should.