10 YEARS AGO TODAY the world learned the first details of what would be Dreamcast

[ikariwarrior]

It was March 13, 1997 when the general public would learn, via a report on Next Generation Online, some of the first real details Sega's last console.


http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/4308/blackbeltrj5.th.jpg (http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=blackbeltrj5.jpg)





Codename: Black Belt

Next Generation Online has received impressive first insights into Sega's next game machine - codenamed Black Belt.
March 13, 1997



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Developers are now hearing the first details of Sega's next machine which is supposedly based upon two key technological elements. The first element is the inexpensive Videologic/PowerVR PCX2 chipset which is expected to cost manufacturers less than $30 in lots of 10,000 units. NEC has previously confirmed that they have spoken with Sega about the use of the PowerVR hardware in future systems. Such a system would provide hardware support for anti-aliasing, mip-mapping, z-buffering (albeit not a standard method), texture filtering and alpha-channeling.
The system is also expected to sport some as yet to be named 64-bit CPU (rumored to be a PowerPC of some variety) as well as utilizing a CD format. There is still no word on the polygon handling capacity of the unit.

The second major component of the system is said to be the Microsoft Arcade Operating System. Yu Suzuki has been rumored to have been in Redmond, visiting Microsoft a little less than a year ago investigating the OS. Such a system allows for easier development with more standardized tools. Furthermore, arcade games developed to use the OS could relatively easily be ported to the new system.

Currrently Sega and SegaSoft are said to be working with the hardware in its current form. Some developers should be receiving development kits as early as this Christmas, with a system release possibly as early as Christmas '98.

While the developers that Next Generation Online spoke to were unaware of the Black Belt's expected price point, all of them said that it should provide a much needed boost in performance and ease of development.




http://web.archive.org/web/19970417001506/www.next-generation.com/news/031397a.chtml


at the time, the project was only known to the world outside SEGA, as Black Belt.

but NGO nailed three critical details

*PowerVR graphics chip
*Microsoft OS
*late 1998 release (Japan)

most of the stuff put out on websites and in magazines regarding Sega's next console before this report came out was merely rumor & speculation. This article was no rumor, but the first actual public report about what would be a real Sega console.


Yes, I know, the "Black Belt" machine was actually the Sega of America project using 3Dfx, which was eventually canceled. However although the article mentions Black Belt, what NGO was actually unknowingly talking about, which they and everyone discovered a few weeks or months later, were early details of the Sega of Japan project; Dural, later named Katana.

Later articles by Next Generation Online, Next Generation Magazine and the rest of the media would tell us that Sega had two consoles in development, in parallel, for a final shootout to see which one would get to replace the Saturn. ....it was pretty much fixed that the SoJ Dural/Katana would win, for various reasons.... that's another story.

The report describes an early version of the Dural/Katana which would later have a customized PowerVR2 instead of PCX2 (re: PowerVR1 "version 2"), the machine that would indeed eventually become known to us all as, Dreamcast. :D

[Superman]

10 years.

Wow!

[Snapple]

Dolphin > Black Belt

You'll see, guys.

[ikariwarrior]

Dolphin > Black Belt

You'll see, guys.


heh yeah, Black Belt never even came out, as it was the 3Dfx console.


that said Katana > Dolphin


Dreamcast has is still getting games released, is Gamecube?

And will Gamecube "live" as long as Dreamcast has ?

[Snapple]

Well, I wasn't actually taking a jab at the Dreamcast. I was just trying to speak as someone from 10 years ago. I love the Dreamcast.

But since you want to "go there," I'll say I don't know if a few small time programmers charging ridiculous prices for one or two overpriced shmups counts as the Dreamcast still being a living system. The Dreamcast died six years ago when Sega said as much. And if you still think it's alive, then it'll surely be dead now that Sega has discontinued production of the GD-ROM disc format.

Gamecube didn't end its production run two years and change after it was released like the Dreamcast, so it's pretty silly to compare the lifecycles of the systems.

[ShenmueFan]

But since you want to "go there," I'll say I don't know if a few small time programmers charging ridiculous prices for one or two overpriced shmups counts as the Dreamcast still being a living system. The Dreamcast died six years ago when Sega said as much. And if you still think it's alive, then it'll surely be dead now that Sega has discontinued production of the GD-ROM disc format.

Gamecube didn't end its production run two years and change after it was released like the Dreamcast, so it's pretty silly to compare the lifecycles of the systems.

The prices are only "ridiculous" because your looking at the import prices.

As long as a system is having licensed, commercially released games being put out for it, it's still alive whether you like it or not.

Sega hasn't discontinued GD-ROM production....YET. So it's possible for another game or two to come out by the end of '07 or for Sega to keep producing GDs even longer if demand is there.

Yeah, Gamecube didn't end it's production run two years after the Dreamcast but people certainly stopped buying Gamecubes two years after it was released. I never saw so many $99 "next-gen" systems on storeshelves collecting dust on a regular basis from late 2003-2006...LOL


Don't badmouth the Dreamcast. It's the best system ever made, YEARS ahead of its time in every single way and had the most amount of amazing, quirky & just plain awesome titles for it in its short but very popular lifespan.


Knowing that the DC is coming up on its tenth birthday only reminds me how old I am! :)

[BHvrd]

I was a launch day Dreamcaster. :D

Yes I even beat Sonic with all the characters and caught all the fish, raised chaos on the system and vmu, lol. I ate that game up when it first came out!!!! Very good memories indeed.

That system had one of the best launches of all time. Great games from all kinds of genres.

Dreamcast is still the best launch system I ever bought. Too bad they cancelled so many games and it never really lived up to all it could have been.

Many, many great gaming memories on that damn little thing though.

[NEOFREAK9189]

10 years ago Wow! and say
Wow!

[cyberfluxor]

I remember when a couple of friends got their Dreamcasts, my god it was awesome! It kicked all other game systems asses (that I knew of at the time mind you). I'd head over to one friends house in particular almost every day after school to shoot some hoops then go inside and play some Marvel vs. Capcom and Dinamite Cop!!

[CosmicMonkey]

Theoretical question for the tech bods: which machine was actually better; the Katana or the Black Belt?

Katana / Final Dreamcast Specs:

CPU - 200Mhz Hitachi SH-4 CPU
Graphics - NEC VideoLogic PowerVR2-DC
Sound - Yamaha AICA Sound Processor
Main RAM: 16 MiB 64 Bit 100 MHz
Video RAM: 8 MiB 4x16 Bit 100 MHz
Sound RAM: 2 MiB 16 Bit 66 MHz

Black Belt Proposed Specs:

CPU - IBM/Motorola PowerPC 603e
Graphics - 3Dfx Voodoo
Sound - ?
RAM - ?

Assuming the BB would have had similar amounts of RAM, would it have been graphically better, going on the type of 3Dfx cards available at the time? What about the main processor, how does that compare to a SH-4? I can't find anymore concrete specs for the BB than those.

[ShenmueFan]

Theoretical question for the tech bods: which machine was actually better; the Katana or the Black Belt?

Katana / Final Dreamcast Specs:

CPU - 200Mhz Hitachi SH-4 CPU
Graphics - NEC VideoLogic PowerVR2-DC
Sound - Yamaha AICA Sound Processor
Main RAM: 16 MiB 64 Bit 100 MHz
Video RAM: 8 MiB 4x16 Bit 100 MHz
Sound RAM: 2 MiB 16 Bit 66 MHz

Black Belt Proposed Specs:

CPU - IBM/Motorola PowerPC 603e
Graphics - 3Dfx Voodoo
Sound - ?
RAM - ?

Assuming the BB would have had similar amounts of RAM, would it have been graphically better, going on the type of 3Dfx cards available at the time? What about the main processor, how does that compare to a SH-4? I can't find anymore concrete specs for the BB than those.

Voodoo graphics were always better than what PowerVR could do because I believe (from the PC side of things) 3DFX's Glide (or was it OpenGL? No, I think Voodoo used Glide...) was a better API that could produce better effects than NEC's chipset that only worked w/ Direct 3D.

Unfortunately, I think the tech specs had nothing to do w/ the final hardware design. SoJ and SoA were working on two versions of Dreamcast hardware (guess which side was developing the NEC powered one?) and when 3DFX filed some court documents for stock reasons and it slipped that they were working on hardware for Sega's next system, SoJ used that as a reason to not only get rid of an American company supplying the chipset but also to nix SoA's hardware altogether, in favor of the Japanese version.

It was all politics but I do think the Voodoo powered Dreamcast would have been much more powerful.

[Mattiekrome]

I was a launch day Dreamcaster. :D


Same here, K.B. Toys, Hanes mall, Winston-Salem NC... Man, those were the days. Hell I cant even remember what it cost at launch, $299 maybe? Me and my friends would sit for hours and play that NFL 97 (I think?) game. When it was over, we were all pros at it.

[Richter]

^
$199.99

[Fighter17]

Ten years later and we're still buying new Dreamcast games (of all the type of games in the world you can buy, the shmups are still being made, and supporting the DC).

:)

[CosmicMonkey]

Still waiting for a Dreamcast conversion of Melty Blood. Especially as Act Cadenza ver.B - Correction Edition was announced at the 2007 All-Nippon Amusement Machine Operators Union.

Go on Sega, fire up those GD ROM presses one last time.....

[Poofta!]

i think the dc was/is crap. but whatever.

the story that does interest me, is the next one on that snapshot, what was the red alert expansion that was cancelled? lol

[attilathehun]

I told everybody not to buy the dc back in the day, because I got burned with saturn. I some videogame store I asked some kid if they had any saturn games and he said no the saturn was crap had no games. Then I asked him why they were selling 32x games there and he was speachless. Then asked him why they were selling dc stuff. He said oh great system and 3rd party support. I told him it's gonna down just like the saturn. I was right and he was stupified.

I bought a model one dc with a couple of controllers, vmu and games in 2004 for like $50.00 It's great cause I can play n64 looking tekken 3, gt 2 and mgs.
I can play nes and snes and dc games on it. I can even surf the internet with it. Unfortunately it had a short shelf life like the saturn, so we never saw it's full potential. PSO was a great game could play on and offline unfortunately cant do that with ps2 eqoa.

[RPG_Fanatic]

Same here, K.B. Toys, Hanes mall, Winston-Salem NC... Man, those were the days. Hell I cant even remember what it cost at launch, $299 maybe? Me and my friends would sit for hours and play that NFL 97 (I think?) game. When it was over, we were all pros at it.

I was standing in line that morning. I even took the day off work and the local news was there covering it. Those were the days.:bawling:

[Graham Mitchell]

Wow...that press report came out my senior year of high school. Of course, the machine didn't greet us until about 3 years later, really (my Junior year of college). So much had changed...like someone else said--it really makes you feel old. But look at it this way: the last generation had quite a shelf life didn't it? I mean DC really kicked off the last gen, and PS2 came out only a year and some change after the DC. PS2 design was probably in progress at the same time as that DC press release, and the PS2 is still alive! I can't believe the PS2 has been around for 7 years. The only system I can think of that had that kind of longevity was the NES, and I figured that since the business is so focused on graphics, new machines would come around every 3-4 years, such that no system would last that long again.

Seriously, 10 years? I'm still in school for chrissakes! I remember it like it was last week. I can't believe it.

[ShenmueFan]

i think the dc was/is crap. but whatever.

the story that does interest me, is the next one on that snapshot, what was the red alert expansion that was cancelled? lol

You're probably a big PS2 fan, which explains your dislike of the DC.

PlayStation fanboys and ignorant Mommies & Daddies killed whatever chance the DC had of sticking around longer - sure, the Saturn situation didn't help but if you honestly believe Poofta that the DC had crap games for it and was crap technologically back in the late 90s then I don't know what to say other than you must've been a PS2 child. I'd be surprised if you can even appreciate the SNES or a system like the Neo Geo.

You probably love Ratchet & Clank and everyone of the carbon-copy games in the GTA series, am I correct?

[Lothars]

You're probably a big PS2 fan, which explains your dislike of the DC.

PlayStation fanboys and ignorant Mommies & Daddies killed whatever chance the DC had of sticking around longer - sure, the Saturn situation didn't help but if you honestly believe Poofta that the DC had crap games for it and was crap technologically back in the late 90s then I don't know what to say other than you must've been a PS2 child. I'd be surprised if you can even appreciate the SNES or a system like the Neo Geo.

You probably love Ratchet & Clank and everyone of the carbon-copy games in the GTA series, am I correct?

Wow, your not going a long way to prove that your not a troll, I am a huge PS2 fan but I really like the Dreamcast as well both are great systems but man I really don't care if you don't like the PS2 but your really annoying with these kind of posts IMO.

[Push Upstairs]

Dreamcast will always have my love because it has "Powerstone 2".

Sure there is stuff like "Super Smash Brothers", but sometimes you just wanna slap someone around with a giant fish, make them march to a trumpet, or run them over with a motor scooter.

[Drag0nsfyre]

Ten years later and we're still buying new Dreamcast games (of all the type of games in the world you can buy, the shmups are still being made, and supporting the DC).

:)

Speaking of this.
has anyone picked up Trigger Heart or Karous? I'm thinking of maybe getting these. or any other good newly imported ones I may not know about.

[Habeeb Hamusta]

i think the dc was/is crap. but whatever.

the story that does interest me, is the next one on that snapshot, what was the red alert expansion that was cancelled? lol

Haha I love someone and can talk shit about something but can't explain why.

"The DC was slash is crap but whatever, I have no idea why I think it's crap but it is. Anything that I say is crap because I said it so therefore it is. In fact everything is crap. All games are crap. All game systems are crap. All gamers are crap. Don't ask me why because I don't know. I don't have to know because my word is almighty."

I may have given you/your crappy statement more respect if you would have said that because at least I could have laughed.

[FantasiaWHT]

Haha I love someone and can talk shit about something but can't explain why.

"The DC was slash is crap but whatever, I have no idea why I think it's crap but it is. Anything that I say is crap because I said it so therefore it is. In fact everything is crap. All games are crap. All game systems are crap. All gamers are crap. Don't ask me why because I don't know. I don't have to know because my word is almighty."

I may have given you/your crappy statement more respect if you would have said that because at least I could have laughed.

You've given it more respect by considering it worth responding to than you would've if you had just ignore it.

Ahhh the irony.

[chicnstu]

[...]

You probably love Ratchet & Clank and everyone of the carbon-copy games in the GTA series, am I correct?

What is so bad about Ratchet & Clank? If you're going to single out games a lot of people buy PS2s for it definitely isn't R&C. At least change it to God of War.

[ShenmueFan]

Wow, your not going a long way to prove that your not a troll, I am a huge PS2 fan but I really like the Dreamcast as well both are great systems but man I really don't care if you don't like the PS2 but your really annoying with these kind of posts IMO.

Um, I was responding to a guy who just said "DC is crap" and didn't back it up with anything as another poster pointed out.

Again (I think we had this discussion before in another thread), just because you don't agree with my opinion doesn't mean I'm a troll and you're some awesome whatever. You don't say anything about the guy who just posts "DC is crap" in a thread he is contributing nothing else to but yet you get on my case.

Seriously dude, grow up and go bother someone else.

And yeah, I'm a fanboy with a strong dislike of the PS2. I loved the PS1 and I even kinda like the PS3. But I don't really care for the PS2. So because YOU love the PS2 and you like the DC you're more qualified than me to post here? Whatever.

Just like I mentioned earlier - if you're not contributing anything to this thread and just wanna play board moderator or post random stuff like "DC is crap" and not back it up or have it build on the discussion, than YOU are more of a troll than I.

[ShenmueFan]

What is so bad about Ratchet & Clank? If you're going to single out games a lot of people buy PS2s for it definitely isn't R&C. At least change it to God of War.

If a lot of people didn't buy the PS2 for R&C or Jak & whatever or GTA whatever or SOCOM whatever, etc. etc. then how come so many sequels for those franchises exist!?! (Also, keep in mind that GoW only came out fairly recently years after the PS2 was building up it's installed base)

I'm not saying the PS2 doesn't have a few good games for it. But for every one of those decent games you literally have DOZENS of crappy titles that are just plain awful or suffer from sequel-itis.

Anyways, this is enough PS2 discussion on a DC thread for me.

[Graham Mitchell]

If a lot of people didn't buy the PS2 for R&C or Jak & whatever or GTA whatever or SOCOM whatever, etc. etc. then how come so many sequels for those franchises exist!?! (Also, keep in mind that GoW only came out fairly recently years after the PS2 was building up it's installed base)

I'm not saying the PS2 doesn't have a few good games for it. But for every one of those decent games you literally have DOZENS of crappy titles that are just plain awful or suffer from sequel-itis.

Anyways, this is enough PS2 discussion on a DC thread for me.


You know, I understand why you would dislike the PS2, but if you really think about it, the success of the PS2 allowed a lot of good stuff to get released over in the US, albeit in low runs. Weren't you commenting about how the DC had a bunch of unique, quirky games? Well, PS2 had Katamari Damacy, Y's VI, R-Type Final, Gradius III, IV and V, the Sega Ages compilation, and plenty of other interesting stuff. Had the PS2 not been so successful, I doubt Sony would have allowed for such "inferior" 2-D games to be released in the U.S. Christ, Western audiences almost didn't get Symphony of the Night on the PS1 because it wasn't polygon-based. So if you think about it, they've gotten a lot more lax than they used to.

So, yeah, my point is that the PS2 had quite a few interesting games on it, and Ratchet and Clank, GTA and the Final Fantasy's all funded them, because you know the developers lost money on those more obscure titles. I mean, based on your argument you should be most vehemently opposed to the Xbox. (And don't try to use Shenmue II to defend it ;) ) Xbox really had nothing but FPS's, sports games, fighting games...all stuff that appealed to the lowest common denominator. I don't want to be over generalizing--Fable and a couple other titles looked pretty neat, but there was nothing other than Shenmue II that would have convinced me to buy one.

[PallarAndersVisa]

ah, the dreamcast is one of my faves. Definately one of the most impressive systems to come out at the time. No systems since then have impressed me as much untill the 360 came out, which I can attribute it to the internet connectivity. The DC nailed the whole internet thing pretty fucking early on! I spent so many hours with Quake 3, UT, Phantasy Star Online and Alien Front online.

Amazing system, I play the fuck out of it still today, even though my DC kind of sucks and doesnt want to play all of my games.

Shenmue II is amazing btw! Just got it for xbox and I love it more than the 1st!

[ShenmueFan]

I'm glad several good games eventuallycame out for the PS2 - it would have been a shame if gamers who bought it only got sub-par games...but I think the real shame is that Sony got so cocky with their system that they followed up with an almost universally-disliked & ignored system because they ignored their consumers.

The irony is that Sega finally listened to consumers and delivered much more than they had to with the Dreamcast and people didn't even attempt to give them another chance. I personally don't see how the 32X or Sega CD really hurt Sega because those were more optional add-ons than anything (sorta like the N64's 4MB Expansion Pack or the PS2's HDD). Yes, I think the Saturn could have been handled better in many ways but even still, I don't see how it left that bad of taste in people's mouths where they would have been turned off of Sega so much. I still don't get it and I couldn't give anyone a single definitive reason why Sega failed and the PS2 took off in such a short span of time.

My only guess (because I worked in retail and heard firsthand why customers were buying these things back around 2000) is that casual gamers and parents flocked to the PS2 because it 1) had a DVD player (& most people at that time still didn't have one, 'cept maybe in their computer) and 2) had EA Sports games. Never underestimate the power of EA Sports and casual gamers.

I mean, really, if you think about it, the PS2 didn't have any "must-have" games until Grand Theft Auto III came out the tail end of 2001 and from then on out most games could be found on multiple platforms - the truly-memorable/worthwhile exclusives were few and far between. Casual gamers have kept this system going and because the installed base is so frickin' huge now, publishers just keep making stuff for it. Not necessarily because it's the best place to develop games but because they can make the most money potentially. I mean, shouldn't God of War II been on the PS3? Isn't that kinda dumb to ignore your newly launched system?

So that's my take on the PS2 and Playstation owners in general...they're not all dumb and they're not playing all crappy games. But the system only gained popularity because consumers knew no better and people who understand gaming (not causal gamers apparently) NEVER got Sega. Which explains why nothing except the Genesis (which was popular for sports & action titles) really did good domestically.

As for the X-Box & Microsoft, I see them as the spiritual successor to the Dreamcast, which is one reason I always root for them. And you know many of Sega's team went to M$ after the DC's plug was bulled - even Peter Moore is over there. And look at the system and games for it - Panzer Dragoon Orta, Ninja Gaiden, Halo, Gears of War, etc. - Microsoft has a ton of really unique, exclsuive titles on its system for the number of owners it has and the number of games available overall. Their online gaming service is terrific (much like DC's online service which started the console internet gameplay experience) and technologically both XBox systems have been ahead of their time giving consumers almost the same or more than what their competition offers BEFORE they do it. So I support Microsoft's attempts to knock out Sony completely because from the way I see it, Sony's so-so PS2 only had success because they played off dumb consumers who mostly weren't gamers to begin with.

And in my mind, no gaming system should be made or have its success based solely on casual gamers.

That's what board games are for.

[Lothars]

I'm glad several good games eventuallycame out for the PS2 - it would have been a shame if gamers who bought it only got sub-par games...but I think the real shame is that Sony got so cocky with their system that they followed up with an almost universally-disliked & ignored system because they ignored their consumers.

The irony is that Sega finally listened to consumers and delivered much more than they had to with the Dreamcast and people didn't even attempt to give them another chance. I personally don't see how the 32X or Sega CD really hurt Sega because those were more optional add-ons than anything (sorta like the N64's 4MB Expansion Pack or the PS2's HDD). Yes, I think the Saturn could have been handled better in many ways but even still, I don't see how it left that bad of taste in people's mouths where they would have been turned off of Sega so much. I still don't get it and I couldn't give anyone a single definitive reason why Sega failed and the PS2 took off in such a short span of time.

My only guess (because I worked in retail and heard firsthand why customers were buying these things back around 2000) is that casual gamers and parents flocked to the PS2 because it 1) had a DVD player (& most people at that time still didn't have one, 'cept maybe in their computer) and 2) had EA Sports games. Never underestimate the power of EA Sports and casual gamers.

I mean, really, if you think about it, the PS2 didn't have any "must-have" games until Grand Theft Auto III came out the tail end of 2001 and from then on out most games could be found on multiple platforms - the truly-memorable/worthwhile exclusives were few and far between. Casual gamers have kept this system going and because the installed base is so frickin' huge now, publishers just keep making stuff for it. Not necessarily because it's the best place to develop games but because they can make the most money potentially. I mean, shouldn't God of War II been on the PS3? Isn't that kinda dumb to ignore your newly launched system?

So that's my take on the PS2 and Playstation owners in general...they're not all dumb and they're not playing all crappy games. But the system only gained popularity because consumers knew no better and people who understand gaming (not causal gamers apparently) NEVER got Sega. Which explains why nothing except the Genesis (which was popular for sports & action titles) really did good domestically.

I disagree fully on what you are saying, I am a huge dreamcast supporter and I think it was an amazing system that has an outstanding library of games, heck I bought a dreamcast before I bought a PS2, I still love my dreamcast, though in alot of ways. I think all in all the PS2 would have still beat the dreamcast because
IMO Sega killed the Dreamcast, Saying Sega delivered much more than they had to with the dreamcast is wrong though, they delivered what they needed to with it, if they would have any less, I don't think the dreamcast would have been anything special, I do think though the Dreamcast was something special and unique features such as built in modem helped immensely and yes the PS2 was a partial cause of the dreamcast failing but Sega screwed up in alot of ways especially with previous consoles that left a bad taste in customers mouths with mediocre addons such as the 32x and sega cd which is another reason some customers weren't willing to go for a dreamcast and just wait for the PS2, it's not that people didn't understand Sega, it's that people really started not to trust Sega.

It did take the PS2 along time for the system to release great exclusive games but one benefit that they had all along that other systems never did was the Backwards Compatibility with the PS, I think that was a benefit that especially at first was a major selling feature as well in conjunction with the DVD playing capabilities.


I know you don't like the PS2 and that's fine but I think your really discrediting the PS2 with reasons that are not fully accurate.

I do understand where your coming from but I disagree, it's all good though.

[ShenmueFan]

We can agree to disagree :)

[Lothars]

We can agree to disagree :)

exactly, it's all good :)

[Graham Mitchell]

Halo and Gears of War are unique? Really? I guess we agree to disagree on that. Outside of Sega's entries, I really don't think there was much interesting Xbox software. We agree to disagree on that, as well I guess. :)

You're right about the DVD player, Shenmuefan. That is the reason PS2 creamed the Dreamcast. Sony got lucky with that because DVD's were becoming industry standard at that point. It won't happen with PS3. They tried to force a similar victory with the PSP via UMD's, but that was a dismal failure.

DC was really quite successful until the PS2 launched, though. Tons of people bought one. It's just that Sony got clever with marketing. They figured out how to sell video games to people who don't play video games.

[ubersaurus]

The dreamcast had a lot of things working against it. Sega's general unpopularity in the Japanese market, the nerfing of Sega America(again), the PS2's dvd player(in an age where DVD players cost a boatload of money, that was a major selling point), the fact that EA and Square wouldn't support the machine...

Simply put, no matter how popular the DC got in the States, it was utterly boned no matter what. Sega was simply bleeding too much money from all the problems they were dealing with.

That said Triggerhearts is pretty sweet, if not a bit weird to get used to. That enemy tossing anchor is wacky to get the hang of! I haven't tried Karous yet, but as I understand it's nothing but a straight arcade port, but a fairly fun game.

Dreamcast was THE console among my friends back in high school though. Every friday night we'd gather round to play powerstone 2, marvel vs capcom 2, king of fighters, capcom vs snk, and gauntlet on the dc for a few hours. Those were fun times, and not to be forgotten.

[ShenmueFan]

I wonder why Squaresoft / Enix never supported any Sega console...did they have some big problem w/ the SoJ guys in charge or did they only ever bet on the system that they determined to be the most popular. Call me crazy but usually whatever system they decide to support BECOMES the system that gets popular...so that should be a non issue.

Yeah, SoJ got screwed when they cut off Saturn support so quickly in Japan where it was actually very popular --- I don't know the extent of it (& I doubt the US market saying 'Saturn is not our future' really affected it) but I'm sure it built up resentment. I wish I knew more about this...anyone have any links to good articles discussing the fall of Saturn/Sega in the late 90s?

[MarioMania]

Voodoo graphics were always better than what PowerVR could do because I believe (from the PC side of things) 3DFX's Glide (or was it OpenGL? No, I think Voodoo used Glide...) was a better API that could produce better effects than NEC's chipset that only worked w/ Direct 3D.

Unfortunately, I think the tech specs had nothing to do w/ the final hardware design. SoJ and SoA were working on two versions of Dreamcast hardware (guess which side was developing the NEC powered one?) and when 3DFX filed some court documents for stock reasons and it slipped that they were working on hardware for Sega's next system, SoJ used that as a reason to not only get rid of an American company supplying the chipset but also to nix SoA's hardware altogether, in favor of the Japanese version.

It was all politics but I do think the Voodoo powered Dreamcast would have been much more powerful.

Was that why EA didn't want to make games for the DC

[ubersaurus]

I wonder why Squaresoft / Enix never supported any Sega console...did they have some big problem w/ the SoJ guys in charge or did they only ever bet on the system that they determined to be the most popular. Call me crazy but usually whatever system they decide to support BECOMES the system that gets popular...so that should be a non issue.

Yeah, SoJ got screwed when they cut off Saturn support so quickly in Japan where it was actually very popular --- I don't know the extent of it (& I doubt the US market saying 'Saturn is not our future' really affected it) but I'm sure it built up resentment. I wish I knew more about this...anyone have any links to good articles discussing the fall of Saturn/Sega in the late 90s?

Saturn started off popular in Japan, however by 1997 the Playstation had pretty much become the dominant force in the Japanese gaming marketplace. At that point Saturn was doomed in pretty much every region.

As for Square, they went where the money was. SNES was more popular in Japan(which was where RPGs were king in that time frame), Playstation had the more powerful and more popular machine worldwide and none of the censorship of Nintendo, and the PS2 carried that popularity over. Can't fault them for that.

[Lothars]

Sony got lucky with that because DVD's were becoming industry standard at that point. It won't happen with PS3.

See nobody knows if it will happen with blu-ray

it's still up in the air but with the PS3 having blu-ray,

I think it will help the format go a long way, it's still gonna be up in the air but it is entirely possible.

[ShenmueFan]

See nobody knows if it will happen with blu-ray

it's still up in the air but with the PS3 having blu-ray,

I think it will help the format go a long way, it's still gonna be up in the air but it is entirely possible.

I'm sure in the long run BluRay will outdo HD-DVD and unless an economical hard-disk/flash memory based format comes along in the next 2-3 years it probably WILL be the next format. I don't really see BluRay as any better than HD-DVD (both are nearly the same in most ways) but more movie companies seem to be siding w/ Sony on this one (Fox, Disney, etc.) because of the more restrictive DRM it uses. (Yes, I know both HD & BR have been hacked already).

I just think that when the time comes for the average consumer to upgrade to next-gen visuals (in 3-4 years when HDTV prices are a lot lower) BR will have a much bigger library than HD-DVD.


I personally hope that DVD sticks around for years because it's good enough for most people. If HD-DVD wanted to win, they'd put DVD and HD-DVD versions on the same disc and not force people to buy two versions of movies.

[Lothars]

I personally hope that DVD sticks around for years because it's good enough for most people. If HD-DVD wanted to win, they'd put DVD and HD-DVD versions on the same disc and not force people to buy two versions of movies.

I agree I actually would prefer just a combined disc on hd-dvd and blu-ray all in one, but I don't want to be replacing my dvd collection anytime soon.

[Graham Mitchell]

See nobody knows if it will happen with blu-ray

it's still up in the air but with the PS3 having blu-ray,

I think it will help the format go a long way, it's still gonna be up in the air but it is entirely possible.

What I've heard (do not know for fact, but heard) is that in order to have a superior image quality to DVD, you have to have the source material good enough to allow room for improvement. As it stands, I guess current DVD technology reproduces the film masters as close as possible, and the image quality would not improve in a new format. As such, the only movies that would benefit from transfer to the new format would be those filmed in the last couple of years, made with that format specifically in mind. And I was pretty convinced of this because the only Blu-Ray DVD's I see in stores are recent action films like Underworld Evolution. So there would really be no incentive for studios to go back and remaster Casablanca to Blu-Ray, for example. As such, the library for consumers to choose from for this format would be extremely limited compared to that of DVD. Am I mistaken in this understanding, or is there some truth to this?

[PallarAndersVisa]

What I've heard (do not know for fact, but heard) is that in order to have a superior image quality to DVD, you have to have the source material good enough to allow room for improvement. As it stands, I guess current DVD technology reproduces the film masters as close as possible, and the image quality would not improve in a new format.

I'm not certain, but I'm pretty sure film masters are even higher quality resolution than even the newest HDTVs can produce. It takes an extreme quality of picture for an image to look "good" on a 30ft screen.

Maybe someone can chime in with real info, but I'm pretty sure DVD's are no where near as good quality as the source film.

[ShenmueFan]

^^^ You're right - there's only so much you can do with source material.

Occasionally old movies shot with really high end film can benefit from the higher resolution (such as Lawrence of Arabia) but these movies are so few and far between I don't see how it's worth it just for those few titles.

If anything, I'd like to see a DVD 2.0 where they use a DIVx or WMV codec or something that produces higher quality video in the same amount of disc space w/o needing a special laser or anything.

Also, in case you're wondering why BR & HD are about the same, BluRay uses almost the same codec the current DVD uses while HD-DVD uses a newer, more efficient one. So you get the same quality but HD-DVD simply doesn't need nearly as much room for data or a higher capacity laser.

[Poofta!]

You're probably a big PS2 fan, which explains your dislike of the DC.

PlayStation fanboys and ignorant Mommies & Daddies killed whatever chance the DC had of sticking around longer - sure, the Saturn situation didn't help but if you honestly believe Poofta that the DC had crap games for it and was crap technologically back in the late 90s then I don't know what to say other than you must've been a PS2 child. I'd be surprised if you can even appreciate the SNES or a system like the Neo Geo.

You probably love Ratchet & Clank and everyone of the carbon-copy games in the GTA series, am I correct?


Haha I love someone and can talk shit about something but can't explain why.

"The DC was slash is crap but whatever, I have no idea why I think it's crap but it is. Anything that I say is crap because I said it so therefore it is. In fact everything is crap. All games are crap. All game systems are crap. All gamers are crap. Don't ask me why because I don't know. I don't have to know because my word is almighty."

I may have given you/your crappy statement more respect if you would have said that because at least I could have laughed.



um... did i offend you guys? i didnt mean to. i simply stated my opinion on teh DC. did i state it as fact? no. i do not need to backup my opinions.

but if you guys wanna go there, then ok, i had it a few months after launch day, i have two now, i have every game for it. (only like 3 of which i bought... since the DC's foolproof copy protection system, i was able to 'acquire' the rest). i do not own a ps2. nor am i a sony fanboy... in fact i think all companies have their pros and cons... unfortunately SEGA's pros ended with the genesis.

the system i think is crap, cause of lack of third party support, and it being powerful means jack diddly squat when all it has to show is 20 fighting games. yes powerstone is cool (i love it) and well thats about it... all other games that are worth anything came out on other consoles shortly after... so why praise DC? did it have potential? sure. so did communism. who cares. i also hated the controller. wanna be more pissed off? other systems i think are shit: GBC, N64, Saturn. i would add the GC there too but at least its limited library of worthwhile games span several genres.

ive been gaming since NES days and my likes or dislikes of certain systems are mine, if you disagree with them, take your personal attacks to my mailbox.

so, now, what was the red alert expansion that was cancelled? id rather spend 300 dollars on copies of the original C&C:RA than a new DC.



oh and shenmuefan - youre a troll. this is not your thread, this is our thread as its on our forum. we can say whatever the hell we want as long as it relates to topic posted. my opinion on the system is far superior to the utter shit you posted in response to it. im sure you'll find gamefaqs forums much more to your liking. youve been here, what, a week and already making so many friends? take your attitude elsewhere.

[ShenmueFan]

Oh, the mighty Poofta has spoken. Let us all bow down to your greatness and high number of posts. When I acquire that high of number, might I bash other's opinion's without any need to explain my statements?

Let's go over your statements:

the system i think is crap, cause of lack of third party support
It had tons of 3rd party support. But if you mean EA Sports and Squaresoft/Enix not being there....yeah, I suppose it "sucks"...though I'd like to think there's more to the world than the newest/oldest Madden or Final Fantasy XVIII or whatever they're up to now.


and it being powerful means jack diddly squat when all it has to show is 20 fighting games
Yes, the DC had a lot of fighting games. It also had a lot of action games and arcade games and puzzle games and party games and niche title games and on and on and on...most of which were pretty decent and keep in mind the DC ended up having over 200 games here in the US by early 2001, a year and a half after it came out.


all other games that are worth anything came out on other consoles shortly after
Sega did port many DC titles over to other systems but you still need it to play Samba de Amigo, Seaman, Shenmue, Soul Calibur, and a few others that really are great games. I could say the same thing about the PS2 too because nowadays most games are published on multiple systems simultaneously. So what's your point? You piss on a system because not every title on it is exclusive?


did it have potential? sure. so did communism. who cares.
Communism...and Dreamcasts...did I miss something???


i also hated the controller.
Hmmm....any particular reason why? Was it because it was countoured perfectly to people's hands? Or was it because it had two slots for Memory Cards, Tremor Packs, Microphones, what? Or was it because you could use a VMU with it and use it as a secondary screen in games like NFL2K for plays and stuff? Or was it because it had a very simple design with four buttons, a start buton and two triggers. Better than the PS1's,PS2's and PS3's 10 button + dual analog stick crap design.


other systems i think are shit: GBC, N64, Saturn.
You probably hate the GBC because it doesn't have a holographic screen, the N64 because it can't make you breafast in bed and the Saturn because it can't cure cancer, am I right? Too bad for you because all those systems have great titles for them you won't find anywhere else.


id rather spend 300 dollars on copies of the original C&C:RA than a new DC.
Well, I'm sure you wouldn't spend any money on a DC given that you obviously love to pirate videogames on a large scale. Tell me, how is it that game companies make money off people like you?


i simply stated my opinion on teh DC. did i state it as fact? no. i do not need to backup my opinions.
No, you don't have to state your opinion as a fact but if you wanna be taken seriously and not have stuff said by us, "DUMMMMMMMM" people who disagree with you, you might want to think about backing it up.


youve been here, what, a week and already making so many friends?
I'm not here to make friends. Friends exist in the real world, not the 1s and 0s realm of this magical place called the internet. I came hear to learn about and discuss gaming topics that aren't usually brought up. I can go into any damn store and here some bonehead say something like "RANDOM WHATEVER sucks!"...take some Midol, bury your face in a pillow and when you stop bein' pissy you can come back and play with the rest of us.



Oh, and Poofta, this is not YOUR thread either. If you want to have your own special thread on your own special forum then make the whole forum (which you apparently control) PRIVATE. Like I said to another poster here - if you don't want to hear someone else's opinion, don't post things for everyone to see in a place where the whole point is to COMMENT!




No can we please get back to the topic on hand unless some other person wants to drop by and add nothing of relevance to the topic just to start trouble? Poofta, you got any of those whatchamacallits..."friends"...who'd like to say dumb crap also?

[RPG_Fanatic]

It's funny how this thread started out as "this day in history" then it turns into I HATE SONY why do so many people act like children here.:?

[64Bits]

And powerstone....mmmm...powerstone.

[ubersaurus]

Dreamcast controller isn't that great. Too few buttons, too few sticks. It's like a bizarre midpoint between the N64 controller and the xbox one.

I mean, they did well with what they had, but I can't imagine some of the more popular games of the past couple years being doable on DC for that very reason. Lord knows it was a pain with fighting games due to it's wonky layout.

[Kroogah]

Dreamcast controller isn't that great. Too few buttons, too few sticks. It's like a bizarre midpoint between the N64 controller and the xbox one.

I mean, they did well with what they had, but I can't imagine some of the more popular games of the past couple years being doable on DC for that very reason. Lord knows it was a pain with fighting games due to it's wonky layout.

Quoted for truth. Some of the best games on the DC are fighting games but it's a goddamn pain in the ass having to pull the left trigger while playing Third Strike. I think this is part of the reason Capcom "downgraded" to 4 buttons for Marvel Vs. Capcom 2 and Capcom Vs. SNK.

WHOOP DON'T LIKE THE DC CONTROLLER I MUST NOT BE A TRUE GAMER

[Push Upstairs]

Yeah, the DC controller isn't my favorite either.

It's good for "Powerstone 2", but I don't really use it for much else. I usually use a PSX controller on my DC games (via a converter).

[Graham Mitchell]

Dreamcast controller isn't that great. Too few buttons, too few sticks. It's like a bizarre midpoint between the N64 controller and the xbox one.

I mean, they did well with what they had, but I can't imagine some of the more popular games of the past couple years being doable on DC for that very reason. Lord knows it was a pain with fighting games due to it's wonky layout.

I agree. Something like Katamari Damacy couldn't have been done. Although, they probably would have come up with a new design, just like the Saturn did to compete with N64.

[Oobgarm]

That's the thing I never understood. If you even so much as whisper something ill about the Dreamcast, you're automatically some kind of leper, and your opinoins aren't valid since you aren't a TRUE GAMER.

I can honestly say that over my 23+ years of gaming, there's not been a system a downright loathe.

But I've always viewed the Dreamcast as 'meh'. Sure, there are some games I enjoyed, like ChuChu Rocket, Samba de Amigo, Toy Commander, SoulCalibur, Crazy Taxi, etc. I don't discredit the system for any reason(well, other than the controller), I just don't understand the unabashed loyalty and love for it. It's kind of like Nintendo. Say something negative, and everyone will come out of the woodwork to criticize you for it.

Was it more powerful than PS2? In some respects, yes.
Did it have awesome games? You bet.
Did it pioneer real 'online' gaming? Indeed it did.
Is it the 'best system ever'? Not by a longshot.

You could take any of the AAA titles out of the Dreamcast's library(with the exception of SoulCalibur) and apply them to any other system, and you'd get the same result. Good games, but nothing that's going to create a make-or-break situation for the console manufacturer. Shenmue, Sonic, Space Channel, Crazy Taxi, Phantasy Star. They've all been on other machines and were mostly ho-hum.

The Dreamcast 'died' for reasons that were inevitable. Sega released the machine when it was on the way out of the console business, and that is what sealed it's fate. I think EA and Square realized that, and that's why they refused support.

[FantasiaWHT]

Gotta chime in on the controller. Can't stand it. Pushing up on the analog stick was a PAINFUL stretch, especially if it was prolonged. PSO was the worst example of that for me... the game is meant to be played in long marathon sessions but I had to take breaks to rest my left thumb, and I never had to to do that in any other game.

[64Bits]

That's the thing I never understood. If you even so much as whisper something ill about the Dreamcast, you're automatically some kind of leper, and your opinoins aren't valid since you aren't a TRUE GAMER.

I can honestly say that over my 23+ years of gaming, there's not been a system a downright loathe.

But I've always viewed the Dreamcast as 'meh'. Sure, there are some games I enjoyed, like ChuChu Rocket, Samba de Amigo, Toy Commander, SoulCalibur, Crazy Taxi, etc. I don't discredit the system for any reason(well, other than the controller), I just don't understand the unabashed loyalty and love for it. It's kind of like Nintendo. Say something negative, and everyone will come out of the woodwork to criticize you for it.

Was it more powerful than PS2? In some respects, yes.
Did it have awesome games? You bet.
Did it pioneer real 'online' gaming? Indeed it did.
Is it the 'best system ever'? Not by a longshot.

You could take any of the AAA titles out of the Dreamcast's library(with the exception of SoulCalibur) and apply them to any other system, and you'd get the same result. Good games, but nothing that's going to create a make-or-break situation for the console manufacturer. Shenmue, Sonic, Space Channel, Crazy Taxi, Phantasy Star. They've all been on other machines and were mostly ho-hum.

The Dreamcast 'died' for reasons that were inevitable. Sega released the machine when it was on the way out of the console business, and that is what sealed it's fate. I think EA and Square realized that, and that's why they refused support.


Why are the two words "power" and "stone" not in this post? :D

Anyway, as far as the controller goes, it reminds me too much of the xbox fat boy controller. That thing was a clunky mess, while the controller-s is, in my opinion, one of the better controllers I've ever used.

[dethink]

For all the griping about the DC in here, I can't think of another system since then where I had so many great new games to play, that I literally didn't have time to play them all. In it's hey day, there were 1-2 must own games coming out every week. Hell, the DC even got me to buy SPORTS games for the first time since the 2600 days.

I don't think I have fonder memories of any other console since then; almost every good title that came out pushed a visual or gameplay envelope that hadn't been touched in some way - It was the first time hardware could really keep up with developers' lofty goals, and you had fewer moments where an invisible wall, cheesy set piece, etc. would pull you out of the game. It really delivered on the promise of 3D in the ways that the N64/PSX hinted at. Even simple games like Ready2Rumble which were panned on weaker hardware simply became better pieces of software due to their visual fidelity. Things like Ecco that would have been an absolute disaster on Saturn/N64-era hardware, for the most part, worked.

I think the reason people get so worked up about the DC is it really was the "line in the sand" for people who had been gaming for a long time, and it was definitely an "us vs. them" battle. What killed the DC more than anything (piracy, lack of Square/EA support, and so on), was the *huge* fundamental shift the gaming industry took a year after it's release - gaming systems essentially became another piece of A/V equipment with the release of the PS2. For better or worse, the suits won. Consumers saw the PS2 as something that appealed to them as "more" than a mere toy, and voted with their dollars accordingly.

Despite this though, in hindsight, I think of the DC as the Wii of it's day. My dad who had never been into video games before was simply awestruck by what that thing was capable of putting on a TV screen, and would log many an hour in Sega GT when I came home on break from college. Many other friends I knew then who would never touch a Playstation or N64, and had no interest in Tony Hawk, Madden, etc. (they were over-complicated "nerd games") would constantly come over to my apartment to play the DC for things like Samba or Crazy Taxi, even if they weren't good at it - it was just "fun to look at."

In that sense, and at it's price point, it still existed in the niche "toy" realm, which is why it was doomed once the PS2 hit. What a great toy though... :D I highly regret selling mine once the PS2 came out, as there's no way I'd have a kick-ass DC library in that condition again, but at least I recovered most of my money. The ~$500 I ebayed all that for would go for about $50 nowadays. :lol:

(except MvsC2...)

[attilathehun]

The dreamcast had a lot of things working against it. the fact that EA and Square wouldn't support the machine...

Square Soft/Equinix never did anything for Sega. First a 3rd party exclusive for the Big N, and then later for Sony. There are very few square games I like. Most of the ff games start out so slow. But EA stabbed Sega in the back. Back in the day EA games were the best on the Genny. I would like to know how it would be profitable to make N64 carts vs. 128 bit DC discs.

[ShenmueFan]

Square Soft/Equinix never did anything for Sega. First a 3rd party exclusive for the Big N, and then later for Sony. There are very few square games I like. Most of the ff games start out so slow. But EA stabbed Sega in the back. Back in the day EA games were the best on the Genny. I would like to know how it would be profitable to make N64 carts vs. 128 bit DC discs.

EA was just pissed that Sega was making wonderful Sports titles that posed a serious threat to their own products and a way to ensure Sega would have a hard time and maybe ultimately fail with the DC would be to not support the system at all.

No other reason makes sense because just look at all of the developers who released sttuff for that system in its short lifespan. Apparently there was enough demand in the market for 200+ games to be released domestically in a year and half but EA just stood on the sidelines because it was burned by Saturn's failure or Sega's past?

No fricken' way. They were scared - just like how they got so scared by 2K's games they bought the ESPN license for a decade and grabbed NFL rights and all of that.

If so many mindless gamers didn't buy Madden every year we wouldn't even be discussing EA right now...

[Gillian Seed]

Man, this makes me feel old. I love DC it's got a charm not found in PS2 or XBOX. The first Virtua Tennis and Soul Calibur games are far better than their successors, and Shenmue is a masterpiece. The Quirky controller is cool, I mean the cord being on the wrong side and all, and the VMUs are the funkiest memory cards ever.

[Kroogah]

Man, this makes me feel old. I love DC it's got a charm not found in PS2 or XBOX. The first Virtua Tennis and Soul Calibur games are far better than their successors, and Shenmue is a masterpiece. The Quirky controller is cool, I mean the cord being on the wrong side and all, and the VMUs are the funkiest memory cards ever.

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/member.php?u=19773

Oh Hell. You can't BOTH be the last Junker. There can't be TWO last Junkers!

(Just kidding. Y'all got great taste in "Digital Comics" though.)

[PallarAndersVisa]

i love sega.

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

For me, the Japan DC launch was the best time for gaming. The VGA box + Marvel vs. Capcom, Sonic Adventure, Blue Stinger (the Japanese version) and Powerstone were unbelievable. For pure gaming bliss, this experience was untouchable.

I bought everything that came out on the DC. Every peripheral. I couldn't get enough!

Anyone who saw my DC + VGA Box setup on my 21" hitachi annhialated any enthusiasm they had for the PS2.

So many perfect gaming experiences on the DC:

- Virtual On Oratorio Tangram w/ Twin Sticks. You can't beat that setup. :rocker:

- PSO was the best online console game ever at that point. I still haven't had as much fun with ANY online game as I did when PSO came out.

- SFIII Double Impact and 3rd Strike with 2 official Arcade Sticks. Still the best home SF experience.

The VMUs, the untouchable ASCII 6 button pad... accessories for the DC were outstanding. I admit the original DC controller had it's issues, but I never had too much of a problem with it. Of course you can't use that thing for fighting games.

When I look back at all the great gaming that I had with the DC, I can't help but be disappointed with everything that came after. Nothing since has topped those months of obsessing over VO:OT, or my experience the first time I went through Blue Stinger (again, not the horrible US version) and Sonic Adventure. Not even Motorstorm on a 56" 1080p, or GoW on a top shelf setup has impressed me as much as those kickass days Dreamcast gaming on a 21" monitor.