The nerd/casual gaming turning point(s).

[kaedesdisciple]

I've been mulling this one over in my head, and I know there can't be one simple answer. Therefore, I turn to you all for your opinions. At what point do you feel the shift began that moved video gaming from an activity that hardcore nerds did in earnest to an activity that it was "cool" for everyone to do? Did it die off any time after that? Did it become cool again thereafter? Did it work simply as a fad at points, or was it more systematic than that?

I'm not asking that everyone answer all of these, I'm just throwing questions out there to see what everyone thinks.

[Nebagram]

Japan- 3rd Dec 1994
US- 1st Sep 1995
Europe- 29th Sep 1995

'The great divide', you might say. Nerds on one side, everyone else on the other.

[Lady Jaye]

Hmm, well, early videogames weren't a nerd thing. When everyone and their neighbor plays Pac-Man, I doubt you can call it nerdy.

In the post-crash days? I'd say the advent of the PlayStation helped move people's perception of gaming, at least where console gaming is concerned.

[RetroYoungen]

I think the "shift" probably began when the NES started rising in popularity. You didn't need to be a nerd to own one and play SMB over and over again with friends. If it was later than that, then yeah, a little after the SNES launch. The "Great Divide" was the SNES because of the serious rise of the RPG.

Just my $0.02.

[Pantechnicon]

My perspective on the history goes something like this:

- Videogaming was originally an acceptable mainstream fad up until the crash of `84.

- When NES entered the market gaming got relegated to the "nerd" niche owing to the radically different type of gaming introduced into the US from Japan, RPG's in particular.

- Gaming then started to lose some of this stigma when franchised sports series like Madden entered the market, which presented the average non-gamer with an understandable and socially acceptable activity to perform with these machines.

There's my final answer Regis: Prior to Madden, playing football on your Intellivision would probably earn you jeers from your father to "go outside and play the real game". Then when he learned he could sit on his can all week and fantasize that he was the Steelers' head coach through an entire season...well...I guess that's somehow different :roll:

[64Bits]

I've been mulling this one over in my head, and I know there can't be one simple answer. Therefore, I turn to you all for your opinions. At what point do you feel the shift began that moved video gaming from an activity that hardcore nerds did in earnest to an activity that it was "cool" for everyone to do? Did it die off any time after that? Did it become cool again thereafter? Did it work simply as a fad at points, or was it more systematic than that?

I'm not asking that everyone answer all of these, I'm just throwing questions out there to see what everyone thinks.

Two words: Golden eye....or is that one word? Whatever.

[8-bitNesMan]

I'd have to agree with Lady Jaye on this one. When the Playstation launched it was a status symbol. I was a freshman in college and I knew a girl older than me who was preppy and elitist to the nth degree. Not your typical gamer. But lo and behold, she bought a Playstation. I was a hardcore Super NES guy back in those days and I didn't know what exactly was happening to my beloved hobby, but I could tell something was amiss. I didn't buy one myself until the price drop of the following summer when a few more actual games (read not tech demos) were available. But I think than until then games were regarded by the mainstream as strictly for kids. The original PS made gaming trendy and hip.

[YoshiM]

Lady Jaye is pretty much right on about early gaming. It was open to pretty much everyone and I remember everyone from the classic "nerd" to the jock getting their time in on an arcade game or some Atari.

The late 80's, at least in my area, was different. You knew that people DID play NES but no one ever spoke about it at school or in popular public places (like the mall). The only ones that did were typically the ones classified as geeks/nerds. The early 90's the stigma lessened somewhat, again at least where I lived and the age group I was in. It could have been the inclusion of franchised sports games or it could be due to the cutting edge technology of the Genesis along with what could be seen as more "mature" games (less cartoony, more detailed, closer to the arcade version, etc).

But the defining moment has to be when Sony dropped the Playstation. I personally didn't like the system (I hated the controls and hated the fact I had to buy memory cards to save my games) but it resonated with an uber-coolness thanks to the Sony name and some strong media. It got people to open their wallets, open their minds and accept video gaming as a "cool" past time.

[cyberfluxor]

In the past decade I'd say it's more in the main stream of things, however there are people still hidden under a rock that believe it's still just a fad. I was talking to my history professor just the other day and was amazed at the information I was telling him about todays video games and MMORPGs. It was like a world that never existed just popped open, and it all began with a question of where's a good place to buy a GameCube game for his son...


But otherwise, it does deal with the NES. All of the TV shows that came out and now they're on your store shelves and selling. Everyone 20yrs ago are buying these shows and rewatching them (if they like them or not) and sales are higher than most other medias. It's a very interesting time to be in and paying attention to the game markets, just as it has several times in the past. I'll be nice to see what some of the newer technologies of the next next generation will bring us.

[mailman187666]

I have a question though. Why are people who are into games (even RPGs) classified as nerds anyways? because they are interested in more than just drinking/smoking/fucking? I'm interested in all the "non-nerd stuff" as well as nerdy RPGs and puzzle games. But then again I do wear glasses and act like a goofball. I think that puts me in the middle somewhere, like the cool kid of the nerds and the nerd of the cool kids...if that makes any sense.

[dlopez9069]

I think it wasn't an exact time i think it has always been pretty well divided between nerds and the rest of the world depending on the game. as of the id say mid 90's the market has merged into as complete as it has ever been up until WOW came out. staying up for days on end just to play a game shows how much of a nerd you are. I'm not saying that staying up all night is necessarily nerdish just when you keep it up for weeks well i'm pretty sure you get my point.

[Trebuken]

I'm still waiting for the shift to being a nerd is cool...I've ready for it...any time now...

[Pantechnicon]

I have a question though. Why are people who are into games (even RPGs) classified as nerds anyways?

“even RPG’s” might better be understood as “especially RPG’s”. In either case there are probably dozens of reasons for this. My own theory has to do with a chain of perceptual associations that goes something like this:

Videogames are derived from computers. Computers are perceived as "smart" or sophisticated devices, so anybody who displays an above-average understanding of how computers work is probably “smarter” than the machines themselves. Anyone skilled at video gaming is similarly demonstrating mastery over the machine and belongs in the same grouping. Since these people are “smarter” than the machines or, implicitly, the average person, their minds are probably more capable of processing abstract concepts. This ability to deal with abstractions means that such minds are more greatly stimulated (and less baffled) by notions which, to average people, appear impossible, frightening, or at the very least incomprehensible, i.e. – Fantasy/Sci-Fi concepts. Thus the gamer is resented by the average person because between the mastery he demonstrates over the machine and his embrace of the fantastical it looks like he knows more than the “normal” person.

I’m not saying that gamers are necessarily smarter than non-gamers. I’m just proffering part of the reason why gamers are perceived as nerds (a label which I wear proudly, in any case). There’s another whole component to this involving the seeming (I said seeming) inability of gamers to form normal social bonds with others. But I’ll save that for another time.

[Technosis]

I have a question though. Why are people who are into games (even RPGs) classified as nerds anyways? because they are interested in more than just drinking/smoking/fucking?

A friend and colleague of mine commented on hobbies in general. In explaining some of the eccentric people in his hobby (HAM radios), he basically said that "anything that isn't sports or outdoors is geeky". His statement was fairly general but sums up a common attitude.

As far as when gaming became cool, I'd say for sure it was the PSX era. I'm sure it helped that people could say they only used it for CD's if they were embarrased LOL. Oh yeah, I think the NES era was less than "cool" with the intense Mario kiddie factor......

[Cornelius]

“even RPG’s” might better be understood as “especially RPG’s”. In either case there are probably dozens of reasons for this. My own theory has to do with a chain of perceptual associations that goes something like this:

Videogames are derived from computers. Computers are perceived as "smart" or sophisticated devices, so anybody who displays an above-average understanding of how computers work is probably “smarter” than the machines themselves. Anyone skilled at video gaming is similarly demonstrating mastery over the machine and belongs in the same grouping. Since these people are “smarter” than the machines or, implicitly, the average person, their minds are probably more capable of processing abstract concepts. This ability to deal with abstractions means that such minds are more greatly stimulated (and less baffled) by notions which, to average people, appear impossible, frightening, or at the very least incomprehensible, i.e. – Fantasy/Sci-Fi concepts. Thus the gamer is resented by the average person because between the mastery he demonstrates over the machine and his embrace of the fantastical it looks like he knows more than the “normal” person.

I’m not saying that gamers are necessarily smarter than non-gamers. I’m just proffering part of the reason why gamers are perceived as nerds (a label which I wear proudly, in any case). There’s another whole component to this involving the seeming (I said seeming) inability of gamers to form normal social bonds with others. But I’ll save that for another time.
Zuh? I don't think so. I think it has more to do with less socialization, and RPGs are the epitome of less socialization since they take so much time not interacting with real people. Avid book readers get the same thing. I also think that the (often minimal) thought required for gaming is considered too much work for many. The cool kids hang out with other cool kids or watch TV ('cool kids' used generically here).

As for the Turning Point: I'd agree with the Madden, PSX, and Goldeneye options. A room in the hall I lived in during college had an N64 where Goldeneye brought in all different people (and all were welcome), and that got a lot of people to try Mario Kart as well. Of course, that hall had a lot of nerds to begin with (a regular dnd game on sunday mornings), but I think it still holds in general.

[mregashu]

Gaming in general? Never something that would qualify as nerdy. Like someone said before, Pac-Man was never nerdy. SMB was a good time for all.

That being said, I think there may have been a stigma of gamers over a certain age as having a nerdy quality that is certainly gone today. I think the PSX and it glorious machine of marketing would be the why. I once read that Sony marketed the PSX to 21 year olds, because everyone under 21 wants to be any everyone over wishes they were again. I don't know about that, but I know when I saw Ross and Chandler playing Twisted Metal 2 on Friends back in 1996 or 97 I figured something was different.

Also - let's not kid ourselves - there is still a certain geeky stigma to certain genres of games. That probably won't change, but it also went keep my geeky ass from playing them.

[cosmicpsycho]

id have to agree that the playstation did seem to make video games more mainstream. but it also seems that no matter how popular games get, hardcore gamers, and collectors are probably gonna be looked at as nerds. i collect comics too, so i must be super nerd. actually i'm pretty f***ing cool, but don't tell anyone.

[PSXferrari]

I think the "shift" probably began when the NES started rising in popularity. You didn't need to be a nerd to own one and play SMB over and over again with friends. If it was later than that, then yeah, a little after the SNES launch. The "Great Divide" was the SNES because of the serious rise of the RPG.

Just my $0.02.

Well, I can't agree with you on the RPG point. RPGs to this day are for nerd gamers only (that coming from a huge RPG fan here). RPGs are not a mainstream genre, like say sports or FPS games.



As for the question at hand... allow me to answer this correctly (in addition to the people that already have). Video games were cool up until about the crash ('83-'84)... I mean, come on, before that arcades were the "cool" place to hang out. Video games WERE NOT cool during the 8 and 16-bit eras (NES, SNES, Genesis, etc.). They were more family oriented and a minority of adults purchased them for leisure-- but for adults video games were definitely a "nerd hobby" during that time. Then the Playstation changed everything... not immediately, but gradually as it became cheaper and more desireable adult-oriented games were released for it. Oh, I guess Sony's excellent marketing had something to do with it too. Today the average gamer is 18-25 years old, making them cool yet again. But in the middle area (say 1984-1997), they were not. (As for computer games, they have been and always will be, a nerd hobby).

Further proof-- here's the approximate worldwide sales of a variety of popular game systems over various generations (taken from "The Encyclopedia of Game Machines," by W. Forster):

Atari 2600 (30 million), NES (60 million), Genesis (30 million), SNES (50 million), Playstation (101 million), and PS2 (80 million-- far more now, the book is from 2005).

[Push Upstairs]

I'm still waiting for the shift to being a nerd is cool...I've ready for it...any time now...

It is cool to be a nerd. Maybe you missed the memo.


I'd say the PSX release is what brought video games back into the mainstream and cemented it into that position.

[mailman187666]

yeah I'd probably say the PS1 had the mainstream locked down at that point, since it was geared toward an older generation.

I think nerds are the better people to be around (me being a nerd myself).

[RetroYoungen]

Well, I can't agree with you on the RPG point. RPGs to this day are for nerd gamers only (that coming from a huge RPG fan here). RPGs are not a mainstream genre, like say sports or FPS games.



As for the question at hand... allow me to answer this correctly (in addition to the people that already have). Video games were cool up until about the crash ('83-'84)... I mean, come on, before that arcades were the "cool" place to hang out. Video games WERE NOT cool during the 8 and 16-bit eras (NES, SNES, Genesis, etc.). They were more family oriented and a minority of adults purchased them for leisure-- but for adults video games were definitely a "nerd hobby" during that time. Then the Playstation changed everything... not immediately, but gradually as it became cheaper and more desireable adult-oriented games were released for it. Oh, I guess Sony's excellent marketing had something to do with it too. Today the average gamer is 18-25 years old, making them cool yet again. But in the middle area (say 1984-1997), they were not. (As for computer games, they have been and always will be, a nerd hobby).

Further proof-- here's the approximate worldwide sales of a variety of popular game systems over various generations (taken from "The Encyclopedia of Game Machines," by W. Forster):

Atari 2600 (30 million), NES (60 million), Genesis (30 million), SNES (50 million), Playstation (101 million), and PS2 (80 million-- far more now, the book is from 2005).

I dunno about that book, the numbers never really looked quite right to me. For one, I don't really believe the Gamecube and the XBox have sold a similar number of units. But I'll get off the book, it's a fun collection of shtuff. :)

It's true that RPGs haven't historically, and aren't considered now, a "cool" genre. But the NES was filled with a lot of accessible games for all kinds of players. Don't just think of the Mario titles, or Kirby (though they were pretty solid sellers also), but Metroid and The Legend of Zelda which have to have garnered a lot of success, and not just from the niche "nerd" gamer community; otherwise I dunno if we'd have shirts, wallets, whatever filling our Hot Topic stores.

Maybe it's the retro-thing. So I could be 100% wrong on that one. lol

I can see why people are saying the PSX though, it's the system that had big names, easy to pick up and play, a lot of support from a lot of different developers, and a lot of celebrity support (definitely more than any system before it). The Playstation did get a lot of press...

Though I'm a little surprised no one's brought up the Game Boy yet. Was it geeky back at launch to one of them puppies?

[PSXferrari]

I dunno about that book, the numbers never really looked quite right to me. For one, I don't really believe the Gamecube and the XBox have sold a similar number of units. But I'll get off the book, it's a fun collection of shtuff. :)

No, I'm with you at that one too. I love the book, but some of the sales figures throw me off a bit. For example, I was sure the PS1 had sold over 120 million units, but it is noted as much lower there. The Xbox/Gamecube stats listed there also seem odd being even like that, although in fairness they were not complete when this book was first written in 2004/2005.




It's true that RPGs haven't historically, and aren't considered now, a "cool" genre. But the NES was filled with a lot of accessible games for all kinds of players. Don't just think of the Mario titles, or Kirby (though they were pretty solid sellers also), but Metroid and The Legend of Zelda which have to have garnered a lot of success, and not just from the niche "nerd" gamer community; otherwise I dunno if we'd have shirts, wallets, whatever filling our Hot Topic stores.

Yeah, the only RPG series that has ever even gotten close to mainstream is Final Fantasy (especially FF7), but even those are still in that nerd niche, in my opinion. As for those those NES games you mention, they were well known in the mainstream but that doesn't make it necessarily as cool as modern day titles like Halo. Have you ever seen someone wearing a Mario shirt and thought they were cool for it? Nerd-cool, yes, but cool-cool, I'd imagine not.




Though I'm a little surprised no one's brought up the Game Boy yet. Was it geeky back at launch to one of them puppies?

Good question-- I mean it is the best selling video game system of all time so you'd figure it sold to more than just nerds (though the fact that it was in production for like 12+ years in many different forms [GB, GB Pocket, GB Color, etc] may have something to do with the sales too). However, I think the Game Boy was far more geared towards kids/family gaming. No hardcore gamer was really playing stuff on the GB, except as a last resort if they were travelling. And if you saw someone playing a big white Game Boy on a bus back in 1990, would you think they were cool?

[Push Upstairs]

I read ramblings about yuppies owning Gameboys "back in the day" but I never actually saw one playing a GB, just other kids.

[Technosis]

I read ramblings about yuppies owning Gameboys "back in the day" but I never actually saw one playing a GB, just other kids.

?????? Now if someone could find an article that shows this it would be hilarious (i.e. some GQ article) LOL

[Daria]

(a regular dnd game on sunday mornings),

What kind of super nerd is awake before noon on a Sunday? Freaks. o.O

[Push Upstairs]

?????? Now if someone could find an article that shows this it would be hilarious (i.e. some GQ article) LOL

It was mentioned in passing in a letter or article in an early EGM magazine (I think).

Yuppies playing Tetris or something.