View Full Version : R.I.P. Brandver3
udisi
04-17-2007, 05:09 PM
forgive me if this was posted at some point in the past I searched to see if maybe I missed the thread. I didn't find one, and feel if this was overlooked that is should be given some attention as it was a tragic event.
I was pointed to this memorium over at nintendoage.com
http://brandon-christopher-murphy.memory-of.com/
Brandon was the gamer who found the unrealeased NES prototype of California Raisins. He was viciously murdered on December 18th, 2004. He was a pretty active member here, and I always thought he just kinda disapeared.
Once again forgive me if at some point if there was a post about this, but if there wasn't. It's better late than never to remember this former DP member.
SaturnFan
04-17-2007, 05:22 PM
Thats horrible.
orrimarrko
04-17-2007, 05:37 PM
Holy crap!
I'd dealt with Brandon several times here.
I had no idea...
Very sad indeed.
rbudrick
04-17-2007, 05:59 PM
My god...that's terrible. I feel so sorry for his family. He had a lot of friends and family who loved him very much. The memorial site his parents set up doesn't go into the details of how or why he was killed, but it seems he was being generous and trying to help a friend and was killed for it. The site says it wasn't out of mallice, revenge, or anger. It seems to indicate the murderers did it just for the thrill. They both got life sentences. I didn't even know the guy, and that site breaks my heart. I'm just blown away. I really hate this world and the evil it produces sometimes. It just makes me so angry...I'm just so sad and mad at the same time after reading a lot of that...
-Rob
udisi
04-17-2007, 06:05 PM
The details I've found are very senseless.
here's a link to the news article from the guilty verdict
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/071506/met_22335790.shtml
Truly sick. They shot, him and set his apartment on fire.
Iron Draggon
04-17-2007, 06:12 PM
oh man, that is FUCKED UP! I didn't know Brandon, but I can't believe that he met such a fate just trying to show some kindness to a couple of strangers!
jajaja
04-17-2007, 06:29 PM
Thats fucking sick indeed :(
kainemaxwell
04-17-2007, 06:42 PM
That fucking sucks. He'll be missed.
Garry Silljo
04-17-2007, 06:44 PM
Wow. I once took in a stranger who lived in my apartment for 3 months while she got her life in order and back on her feet. I guess I was lucky. I think the problem is those with good hearts and intentions fail to imagine that others may have evil in theirs. I'm glad I was able to help that girl, but after reading this... I don't think I'd do it again.
Scrimble
04-17-2007, 06:50 PM
It's a shame that such a terrible thing had to happen to someone with a heart. Just reading that story makes you wanna grab those 2 jerks by their necks and...eh you get the picture. To kill someone,steal their stuff, and then destroy their home/remains? Absolutely evil. Didn't know the fellow but may he rest in peace.
DigitalSpace
04-17-2007, 06:55 PM
Sad and terrible. :( R.I.P.
Phosphor Dot Fossils
04-17-2007, 07:27 PM
Good Lord.
I can't think of what else to say here. I'm just stunned.
agbulls
04-17-2007, 07:37 PM
Between reading this and the VTech shooting, I need something positive to convince me the world isn't totally insane. My heart goes out to his entire family...absolute craziness.
SaturnFan
04-17-2007, 07:38 PM
That story makes me sick.
If people I didnt know were staying with me and were sitting around drinking, watching Natural Born Killers, I would be gone. Thats terrible
ubersaurus
04-17-2007, 08:06 PM
That's awful.
I mean, I never got the impression he was perfect by any means, but that's just fucked up.
Muscelli
04-17-2007, 08:18 PM
that is so fucked up. Words cannot even explain how I feel to the couple. I really hope that their lives are never the same, and what they did haunts them for the rest of their life.
Ive been looking at that site for a while now... And I just don't know how I can raise kids when the time comes in such a cruel world.. Its sad that this sort of thing can happen to anybody. Live life to the fullest, you never know what can happen.
RIP Brandon
SaturnFan
04-17-2007, 08:22 PM
http://www.news4jax.com/news/4014971/detail.html
They look like crackheads
mezrabad
04-17-2007, 08:28 PM
The fuckers got life in prison without parole. Y'know if the punishment were to fit the crime then there should be something cruel and unusual as part of the sentencing. Well, I hope they have long awful lives in prison.
Hep038
04-17-2007, 08:48 PM
Wow this is sad news. I remember Brandver3. I just thought he moved on to other message boards like the otehr old members we do not hear about anymore. This is the last thing you want to find out.
That's totally fucked. Natural Born Killers made em do it...sure. Some people are just total fucking scum. They might not get what's coming to them in this life, but in the next one they'll surely burn.
R.I.P. Brandon
Buyatari
04-17-2007, 09:20 PM
Someone should email his mom and tell her about this site. To be able to look up his posts might bring her some joy to read some of his last thoughts.
RIP buddy.
Captain Wrong
04-17-2007, 09:26 PM
Holy cow. I was always curious as to what happened to that dude. Dang, never in a million years would I have guessed.
Hounder
04-17-2007, 09:27 PM
So sad to hear this :( I was stunned when I found this out.
R.I.P. Brandon.....
Iron Draggon
04-17-2007, 09:38 PM
http://www.news4jax.com/news/4014971/detail.html
They look like crackheads
meth heads is more like it... and from the girl's account of the crime, that's what it sounds like too... we don't remember going to buy the lighter fluid... shades of the Manson murders... I dunno what happened, I just killed them...
bangtango
04-17-2007, 09:47 PM
I don't know if I was posting here at the same time Brandon was, unless he was on the old EZ Board when I had my old account. Nonetheless, it's sad to read and I hope his family is doing well since then.
MrRoboto19XX
04-17-2007, 10:05 PM
At least those guilty were punished.
Rest in peace, good sir.
alec006
04-17-2007, 10:13 PM
Whoa,i never knew him but from what i read he was a good guy here on digitpress,may he R.I.P.
Mianrtcv
04-17-2007, 10:26 PM
R.I.P. to a person who gave of himself, the highest form of generousity and kindness.
Sylentwulf
04-17-2007, 10:29 PM
I'm sorry, but why do I have to listen to blaring awful music in order to read about a tragic accident?
dojosky
04-18-2007, 12:30 AM
Wow that's so unbelievable NEWS I didnt expect to hear ... that sucks it had to happen .. he was a nice and cool dude he was the one who i bought my MINT Flintstones surprise at dino peak cartridge only for $45 shipped that year 2004 he found 2 flintstones surprise at dino peak for $5 each at a flea market on the same day in florida... he sold 2 or 3 here on digitpress for $45 shipped each he had to sell them he told me because he had to pay for a speeding ticket. Im glad i bought the game from him its very MINT and has GLOSSY label etc ... thats sad news !! i always wonder what happened to him thought maybe he quitted visiting this board or stopped collecting games but that explains ... that's the last thing i wanted to hear about that ! my condelnces sp ? to his family...
Goodwill Hunter
04-18-2007, 01:13 AM
Man...reading the tributes on his memorial site will break your heart. What a tragedy that someone so loved and loving was cruelly taken from this world so young. It would seem the world would have to be a bit darker place without him. Deepest condolences to all of his family and friends.
Rich
digitalpress
04-18-2007, 06:41 AM
Dammit. Brandon was a great guy. I just posted a condolence on the website but I feel really guilty that I didn't *know* this until now.
Hope you're in a better place dude. We'll miss you.
XYXZYZ
04-18-2007, 09:06 AM
"None of this was my idea," Winn said in a raised voice under cross-examination. "He had me completely brainwashed. I was infatuated with him."
:bullshit:
heybtbm
04-18-2007, 09:18 AM
Ive been looking at that site for a while now... And I just don't know how I can raise kids when the time comes in such a cruel world.. Its sad that this sort of thing can happen to anybody. Live life to the fullest, you never know what can happen.
RIP Brandon
This is truly a sad thing.
However, there has always been evil and cruelty in this world...much more than we have now. We currently have the ability to live the happiest, healthiest, and safest lives in the history of humanity. Random violence is just that...random. It's a waste of time to dwell on what "could" happen.
brandver31282
04-18-2007, 10:03 AM
I'm Brandon's Mother and I just found this post, thanks to one of you making an entry on Brandon's website. I just want to thank you for remembering him and keeping his memory alive. It is so nice to hear how he touched other people and made an impresssion at such an early age. His death is still very hard to deal with. There are so many regrets that can't be fixed, things you thought you had plenty of time to fix. As a parent you don't really know too much about your child, especially if their interests are video games and you have NO CLUE what they are talking about. I wish I had listened a little harder and tried a little harder to understand. I would give anything to have just one of those moments back. My heart goes out to the VT parents because I know exactly how their lives have changed. I guess the only good thing is they don't have to go through a trial and listen to a lunatic try and justify shooting their child. Thanks again for your comments.
brandver31282
04-18-2007, 10:13 AM
[QUOTE=Sylentwulf;1168256]I'm sorry, but why do I have to listen to blaring awful music in order
cyberfluxor
04-18-2007, 10:20 AM
December 18th, 2004... I wasn't as into video games then as I am now let alone apart of any game community or aware of events. I was unaware of things like NWC carts, Panzer Dragoon Saga or even California Raisins. However when I joined this community in later 2005 I do remember reading about this game and did a little research but never heard of this even a year after it occured. I really feel sorry for what happened and how it unraveled on him.
shoes23
04-18-2007, 10:23 AM
My thoughts and prayers go out to his family and friends. I never knew him, but I'm still deeply saddened by what happened to him.
And for those that are questioning the brutality we can show to each other, this quote from Anne Frank has always reassured me that the majority of the human race are caring, loving, and positive people:
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart. I simply can't build up my hopes on a foundation consisting of confusion, misery and death."
rbudrick
04-18-2007, 10:32 AM
I'm Brandon's Mother and I just found this post, thanks to one of you making an entry on Brandon's website. I just want to thank you for remembering him and keeping his memory alive. It is so nice to hear how he touched other people and made an impresssion at such an early age. His death is still very hard to deal with. There are so many regrets that can't be fixed, things you thought you had plenty of time to fix. As a parent you don't really know too much about your child, especially if their interests are video games and you have NO CLUE what they are talking about. I wish I had listened a little harder and tried a little harder to understand. I would give anything to have just one of those moments back. My heart goes out to the VT parents because I know exactly how their lives have changed. I guess the only good thing is they don't have to go through a trial and listen to a lunatic try and justify shooting their child. Thanks again for your comments.
Glad you could come here! Brandon actually made a rather major contribution to gamers in that he was the person who found a prototype (in a pawn shop, if I remember correctly...was some woman trying to sell them?) of the Nintendo NES cartridge California Raisins, a game that was never publicly released, but received good reviews from magazines. It was completed, but mysteriously never released. Because of Brandon, the rest of the world was finally able to play it. It was basically considered an extremely valuable "holy grail" item among gamers and game collectors because people knew the game existed, but no one outside of some publications and the developers of the game had ever played it. It was an extremely highly sought-after game. If I remember correctly, he sold the game to someone after much consideration, and the game was dumped from the cartridge, the file was uploaded to the internet, and then and shared with everyone. Hope that gives you a little something to go on to make sense of just one thing Brandon did with videogames. :-) Maybe someone else could fill in the blanks in this story? Perhaps Brandon's mother would like to hear it. It's a nice little piece of gaming history that Brandon gave us.
I agree about the blaring music, I always turn it off. Someone else put it there but I think I'm going to delete it. Thank you for your suggestion.
I kinda like the song. Good tune. Not sure if it is related to Brandon, but you can turn it off in the top right.
-Rob
Atari Charles
04-18-2007, 11:03 AM
I remember reading about Brandon a while back. It really is a shame, and unfortunately further illustrates why it is not a good idea to let strangers move into your place.
The best thing people on these forums could do is:
I know she already read the thread but it would be nice to send a group letter or card to his mom letting her know the contributions Brandon made to Retro Videogames in general and how much he is missed. The card could be made digitally here and somehow signed digitally by each of us(using ms paint for the signature). This would be something she could keep.
Maybe Digital Press could make some kind of Video Game award named after Brandon, which would be an annual award that would go to the person who contributed the most to Retro-Gaming.
These are just some ideas. I don't have a way to impliment them myself, but perhaps someone here does?
Charles
brandver31282
04-18-2007, 12:00 PM
I remember reading about Brandon a while back. It really is a shame, and unfortunately further illustrates why it is not a good idea to let strangers move into your place.
The best thing people on these forums could do is:
I know she already read the thread but it would be nice to send a group letter or card to his mom letting her know the contributions Brandon made to Retro Videogames in general and how much he is missed. The card could be made digitally here and somehow signed digitally by each of us(using ms paint for the signature). This would be something she could keep.
Maybe Digital Press could make some kind of Video Game award named after Brandon, which would be an annual award that would go to the person who contributed the most to Retro-Gaming.
These are just some ideas. I don't have a way to impliment them myself, but perhaps someone here does?
Charles
Charles, These are great thoughts and would be really appreciated. I was just reading some of Brandon's posts. I laughed at one, the topic was 'What are you listening to?'. It was a very long one, 12 pages, and everyone was listing different songs and cd's. Brandon's response was "Rush Limbaugh".
The trully tragic part of all this is these weren't strangers. The guy was a co-worker of Brandon's current roommate who was moving to Orlando. Brandon's roommate vouched for this person and Brandon trusted his roommate's judgement. A week after he and his girlfriend moved in they killed Brandon. They had been plotting it all week.
ghsqb
04-18-2007, 08:29 PM
This is horrible news.
I've always been more of a lurker than poster, but I remember Brandon from his days here.
Like the others I simply assumed he moved on to other interests or other sites.
Brandon always seemed like a very down to earth and friendly guy and it's so terrible that something like this should happen to a person like him.
As a father of two young children I really can't imagine losing one of my children, much less having someone take their life so callously.
I have no reservation at all in saying I don't think there is any way I could handle something like that.
Mrs. Nesler, I am terribly sorry for your loss, and I find your courage and determination in preserving the memory of your son inspiring.
God Bless.
Felixthegamer
04-18-2007, 11:05 PM
I remember some of Brandon's post and while we were not close, it does damage my heart to hear of all this. i cannot imagine how it must feel to lose a child. Know this though, you raised a good son and he lived a good life
jpark203
04-19-2007, 01:51 AM
I do not post here very often and haven't visited the DP site for awhile until today when I came across this topic. Like many others here, I didn't know Brandon but am appalled by what happened. So senseless, twisted, and underhanded. I never understand why people do things like this.
I can think of a way to preserve his memory though. What if people donated their excess classic gaming systems/games for places like hospital waiting rooms? Or people could donate money toward such things. If Brandon enjoyed gaming, why not share his love of it with others in honor of him?
Oobgarm
04-19-2007, 08:22 AM
Wow this is sad news. I remember Brandver3. I just thought he moved on to other message boards like the other old members we do not hear about anymore. This is the last thing you want to find out.
Add me to that list. Sad news, indeed.
veronica_marsfan
04-19-2007, 09:05 AM
At least those guilty were punished.
Not until a bullet has passed through their brain. An eye for an eye. Killers deserve to be killed.
Same goes for the Virginia Tech idiot.
Glad he got his just reward (burn in hell).
People like this make me mad.
A year ago another friend of mine was found hanging. Police claim it was suicide, but I don't believe it, because he had LOTS of friends. He even told someone "see you tomorrow at the party" and then went out & bought a costume! A person doesn't buy a costume an hour before he hangs himself.
I'd love to get my hands on his killer.
:frustrated:
sniperCCJVQ
04-19-2007, 08:13 PM
Maybe Digital Press could make some kind of Video Game award named after Brandon, which would be an annual award that would go to the person who contributed the most to Retro-Gaming.
These are just some ideas. I don't have a way to impliment them myself, but perhaps someone here does?
Charles
Charles, I agreed 100% with you. DP should do award for the contribution of the year. I seconded that proposition.
I never talked with Brandon, but like most collectors/gamers here, the discovery fo the California Raisins proto was a HUGE news of the NES collecting world. I still remember, when i read his story, just can't believe about how he "save" the proto and other games from the hands of the lady who was looking to sell them.
condolences to Brandon's familly.
adaml
04-19-2007, 09:33 PM
I think most would agree that California Raisins was THE most sought after NES unreleased game. I remember seeing a review of the game in an old NES mag and wondering why I couldn't find it anywhere, then when I got online in 1995 I saw it on a list of unreleased games and sighed knowing I would never get to play it.
When Brandon discovered the game there was a buzz through the NES community. It is always a magical thing when an unreleased game turns up in the wild and Brandon managed to find the holy grail of unreleased NES games.
It made me sick to my stomach when I heard what had happened to Brandon. I didn't know him personally, but from what little I heard about him he seemed like a really cool, likable guy.
I like to think things happen for a reason, but what possible reason can even begin to justify this horrific deed? I'm not even going to write what I think should happen to those 2 sub-humans. My heart goes out to Brandon's mother and the rest of his family.
graboid9
04-19-2007, 11:19 PM
Umm... I went to that crime scene for work...kinda weird. I had forgotten about it until i was scrolling through the forums and read about him. I don't think i even knew about DP when it happened.
Slate
04-20-2007, 12:35 AM
That is so sad. If I could have talked with him, I'm sure that we would have been freinds. I remember reading in a game magazine about the california raisins proto. At the time, I had no Idea who found it, But I was amazed by the find. I downloaded the game a month ago, But I haven't played it much.
I think someone should modify the california raisins game as a tribute to brandon. Make a version that has a menu asking to thank him for finding the game so we can play it.
- Slate
shadow77110
04-20-2007, 05:37 AM
I didn't know him either but he sounds like a good guy and an important person for the NES collecting scene. Typical meth heads, taking advantage of nice people and then killing innocent people for another overpriced hunk of crystal.
sonikokaruto
04-20-2007, 06:48 AM
This is so sad, I just don't know what to say, or what ... i've been round here for a while, and ... it just fills me with rage to know that they just did this to steal from him ...
shows what the world is coming into...
Andred
04-20-2007, 10:19 AM
I didn't know Brandon but this news still shocked me. Condolences to his family.
R.I.P. Brandon.
Moo Cow
04-20-2007, 05:53 PM
Condolences to his family.
This is one of the reasons why I don't trust methheads around me. Those people will do anything to get it.
tabbs
04-27-2007, 02:05 PM
I used to post here, very briefly, at the behest of Brandon when I was living with him as a roomie. My bedroom used to be the one these two sickos shared, playing Brandon's video games - because if Brandon was anything, he was generous. It was actually Brandon's mom who shared with me the weblink again & I've finally built up the courage to come and read. There's a few posts in particular I wanted to respond to, as well as sharing with you all how important this message board was to Brandon.
Brandon was a gamer, and because of it often missunderstood. I had great respect for Brandon's collection not because it was huge, not becaue of what it had in it - but because of what it meant to him. Most importantly, I respected the fact that games never cam before people to Brandon - if it paused or if there was a save point near by - Brandon was there for you (sometimes even if there wasn't!). I guess it didn't hurt that we enjoyed the same games either. 8p
Here are some responces to a few posts I felt needed a reply, though I am touched by everyone's responce. This was a haven for Brandon, many people & their opinions here meant a lot to him.
That's totally fucked. Natural Born Killers made em do it...sure. Some people are just total fucking scum. They might not get what's coming to them in this life, but in the next one they'll surely burn.
R.I.P. Brandon
Neither of them ever claimed it was the movie that made them do it, the girl actually protested rather nastily to the accusation. I do think it is important to note that the movie did greatly influence them. I think it's important to note this because of incidents where games & movies are blamed, often it's true. I remember in fact a story about two boys doing to something to cars at an overpass & it had to do with some game they said & I remember the converstions Brandon and I had about it. While I do not think it is necessarily the fault of the game or movie by any means, the hard truth of the matter is that there very simply are really people walking around who look to these things for an example of how they should be and what they should do. With these people, I feel the real responsibilty falls on the authority figures in their lives and the poor job they did at giving these children a healthy foundation on which to start their life and judge right from wrong.
Give your moms and dad an extra big hug or just call and tell them thank you. You really are blessed by them and the guidance they offer.
Wow. I once took in a stranger who lived in my apartment for 3 months while she got her life in order and back on her feet. I guess I was lucky. I think the problem is those with good hearts and intentions fail to imagine that others may have evil in theirs. I'm glad I was able to help that girl, but after reading this... I don't think I'd do it again.
There is no way to describe the way that this has changed the lives of Brandon's friends and family, an innocence was stripped from us - the illusion of being safe in our homes & placing even the smallest ounce of trust in strangers.
That's awful.
I mean, I never got the impression he was perfect by any means, but that's just fucked up.
*smiles* This post is so true it makes me want to cry. No, Brandon was not perfect & often made mistakes. Brandon was the very best friend I ever knew, and everyone who met him was his friend - or - at least he gave them the chance to be. I thank God for the time I had as Brandon's friend & as horrible as what happened is - I'm reminded that there are other people in the world as wonderful as Brandon, you just have to have the courage to give them the chance. Just remember, only one person ever walked this earth that was ever perfect. I'm very glad to know that Brandon did know Jesus & I will see him again once day. I've got a lot of video game news to catch him up on since I can't call him at midnight anymore when I find something out that I'm just sure he doesn't know yet!
I'm sorry, but why do I have to listen to blaring awful music in order to read about a tragic accident?
Brandon's girlfriend, and would have been his fiance a few days after the murder took place had he had the chance, picked that song. I'm glad she did because for one, Brandon loved Modest Mouse - but more so - I can't think of any other song that is more Brandon than that one. It actually goes hand in hand with the quote I responded to about Brandon not being perfect. There is a place to turn the music off - I myself often do turn it off because it makes me cry with happy tears to remember him, but I like that it's there because sometimes it's like a comforting balm to listen to it over and over a few times.
Wow that's so unbelievable NEWS I didnt expect to hear ... that sucks it had to happen .. he was a nice and cool dude he was the one who i bought my MINT Flintstones surprise at dino peak cartridge only for $45 shipped that year 2004 he found 2 flintstones surprise at dino peak for $5 each at a flea market on the same day in florida... he sold 2 or 3 here on digitpress for $45 shipped each he had to sell them he told me because he had to pay for a speeding ticket. Im glad i bought the game from him its very MINT and has GLOSSY label etc ... thats sad news !! i always wonder what happened to him thought maybe he quitted visiting this board or stopped collecting games but that explains ... that's the last thing i wanted to hear about that ! my condelnces sp ? to his family...
That would be the Daytona flea market, we used to go down once a month to scour the shelves & I always had to bring him things because I wasn't sure if I had found something or not. That is the same flea market where he convinced me to buy my Pentax medium format camera, which he basically helped me buy by covering my portion of utilities that month.
I remember reading about Brandon a while back. It really is a shame, and unfortunately further illustrates why it is not a good idea to let strangers move into your place.
The best thing people on these forums could do is:
I know she already read the thread but it would be nice to send a group letter or card to his mom letting her know the contributions Brandon made to Retro Videogames in general and how much he is missed. The card could be made digitally here and somehow signed digitally by each of us(using ms paint for the signature). This would be something she could keep.
Maybe Digital Press could make some kind of Video Game award named after Brandon, which would be an annual award that would go to the person who contributed the most to Retro-Gaming.
These are just some ideas. I don't have a way to impliment them myself, but perhaps someone here does?
Charles
Better than a card - please go post stories or condolences on Brandon's website, his mother and everyone really appreciates being able to visit it and learn more about him through his friends' posts. http://brandon-christopher-murphy.memory-of.com/
~tabbs
portnoyd
04-27-2007, 06:50 PM
That is incredibly fucked up. What the shit. I think all of us got just a little bit more paranoid of what kind of scum is out there. Jesus... I can only pray the anal rape in prison is long and hard on those two.
Condolences many. I still can't wrap my brain around the circumstances.
Snapple
04-27-2007, 07:30 PM
I regret that I did not know Brandon, since I joined this forum after his untimely exit to the afterlife. I'd like to thank Brandon's mother and former roommate for posting anyway, and know that my heart goes out to them. Although it would be wrong of me to say I know exactly how they feel, I have also lost someone close to me before their time. It is still difficult for me to deal with, so I am certain it must be tough for those close to Brandon as well.
Since I did not know Brandon, I don't know that it would be appropriate to leave a comment on his website, but he will be in my thoughts. I hope that everyone who was close to him will be able to get past this tragedy.
Let this also be a lesson to the rest of us about who we let move in with us.
Howie6925
04-27-2007, 08:19 PM
It was sad to read what happened to Brandon, sounded like he had a big heart. It is even worse he that he was helping them out and they killed him over nothing. R.I.P
Algol
04-27-2007, 08:55 PM
That's one of the most messed up things I've ever heard.
They seriously did it because they saw it in a movie? And didn't take barely anything besides his car and whatever they could grab? Some people just plain old don't deserve to see daylight.
Good God, I hope his parents have mostly gotten over this after this long.