7800 vs. 5200.

[Aswald]

In the course of working on the "digital 5200 controller," I've played the 5200 a good number of times lately.

In order to improve the efforts, I had to redo the way this 5200 was. Because it was broken when I purchased it back in 1997, I was forced to wire Port 1 into Port 2.

As a result, you controlled both ports at the same time. This caused problems in certain games: in Qix, often, when just starting the game, you would go up instead of another direction. And in Robotron: 2084, whenever you moved, you would of course fire in that direction, even if you did not want to.

However, a few weeks ago, I removed the entire plug from port 2, and moved it to Port 1. This was a REAL PAIN, but, it's done.

(Question- Anyone know where you can obtain more plugs for the 5200?)

Thus, for one player with one controller, it works normally.

I played Ms. Pac-Man. I played Centipede. I played Robotron: 2084.

As I have for the 7800.

Know something? The 7800 versions aren't really that much better. In fact, I doubt anyone would have bought a 7800 based on these games if he already owned the 5200 versions.

Sure, Dig-Dug and Joust looked much better on the 7800, but the 5200 had Star Raiders, Qix, Pengo, Pac-Man, and other such games, which were much more recent relative to their 5200 releases. Plus, you did have the trak-ball for the 5200.

And look at Super Pac-man and Millipede for the 5200.

Really- they should have stuck with the 5200.

[Arcade Antics]

Sure, Dig-Dug and Joust looked much better on the 7800, but the 5200 had Star Raiders, Qix, Pengo, Pac-Man, and other such games, which were much more recent relative to their 5200 releases. Plus, you did have the trak-ball for the 5200.

And look at Super Pac-man and Millipede for the 5200.

Really- they should have stuck with the 5200.

That's a little unfair - you're comparing late 5200 releases with early 7800 launch releases. Who knows what they coould have made the 7800 do if it had a longer career?

[BydoEmpire]

I got my 7800 at Kay Bee shortly after getting a NES, and just recently got a 5200. And I'm having more fun with the 5200 than I ever did with the 7800. Dig Dug, Asteroids and Especially Food Fight are awesome on the 7800, but the 5200 has that "quirky charm," and I think the games are higher quality over all. Missile Command is fantastic, as is Pac Man, Space Invaders, etc. As much maligned as the 5200's controllers are, I prefer them 100x over the PainLines.


Question- Anyone know where you can obtain more plugs for the 5200? Best Electronics maybe? www.best-electronics-ca.com

[7th lutz]

I got my 7800 at Kay Bee shortly after getting a NES, and just recently got a 5200. And I'm having more fun with the 5200 than I ever did with the 7800. Dig Dug, Asteroids and Especially Food Fight are awesome on the 7800, but the 5200 has that "quirky charm," and I think the games are higher quality over all. Missile Command is fantastic, as is Pac Man, Space Invaders, etc. As much maligned as the 5200's controllers are, I prefer them 100x over the PainLines.

Best Electronics maybe? www.best-electronics-ca.com

Did you ever tried the Euro joypad for the 7800? They work great on most games for the 7800.

[ubersaurus]

The upshot to the 7800 is not only that you don't have to deal with the craptacular 5200 controller, but you also don't need an adaptor to play the older games. Hence why we never bothered with a 5200, according to my parents.

But really, if you compare the 7800's later titles, they fare quite nicely against the 5200's exclusive games. Commando, Ikari Warriors, Alien Brigade, Xenophobe, Scrapyard Dog, Ninja Golf, hell, even Super Huey are all pretty damn cool games, and I'd put them up against the best of the 5200 anytime.

That said, you CAN tell that the 5200 games were actually given a budget to work with, as opposed to the 7800 programmers working with whatever scraps the XE and 2600 had left over.

[cyberfluxor]

LOL Atari?! Who plays that ancient machine. Are we supposed to be retro gamers??


Seriously, I went to Replays today (hadn't been by in a few weeks) and someone picked up all his Coleco, good chunk of NES and most of the Atari (2600/7800) games. I was amazed that Food Fight (7800) was left behind! It's one of my faves on that system.

My opinion though, 7800 is superior with hardware but it wasn't used to it's full, however it still kicks ass and can play 2600 titles. 5200 has that funky controller but that trackball is nice and some of those arcade games really need to be brought home. There was a nice topic over at AtariAge that linked to an Arcade/5200 comparison page:
http://www.ataritimes.com/article.php?showarticle=572

But anyways, I like the 5200 more for some wierd reason.

[BydoEmpire]

Did you ever tried the Euro joypad for the 7800? They work great on most games for the 7800.No, but they do look very nice. If I see one around I'll definitely pick it up. I do like playing 2600 games on the 7800, seeing as how my last remaining 2600 is on the fritz. Very handy.

[Trebuken]

Is there any difference in using the Atri 2600 adapter for the 5200 versus playing the 2600 games on a 7800?

The 5200 games have a greater 'arcade' like quality to me. Granted that there are plenty of similar titles on the 7800, but there is just something intangible about the 5200...

[Pantechnicon]

Is there any difference in using the Atri 2600 adapter for the 5200 versus playing the 2600 games on a 7800?

Probably not. The 2600 adapter is a full-fledged 2600 down to the 9-pin controller ports and all the switches. It simply plugs into a 5200 cart slot for power and video (ditto for the INTV and Coleco adapters). It's about the same length as a 2600 Jr PCB but maybe only 75% of the width. I actually have one of these but I've never been able to test it because both of my 5200's are early model 4-ports. The adapter only works with late-model 4-port and all 2-port 5200 machines.

[chrisbid]

the 8-bit line of computers is the second best way to get an atari fix. though not the best setup, i found a 400 for 4 dollars. atari 8-bit donkey kong is about as good as it gets

[Steve W]

Agreed, the Atari 8-bit computers have a whole lot more games on them, and most important (for me, anyway); good controllers. The ol' classic CX-40 controllers are far easier to use than those aggravating 5200 analog sticks. They're the only reason I never play my 5200. I even have a Wico stick, but it's still a non-centering analog. The controllers require too much effort just to play a game that I can play on the XEGS.

[Aswald]

Well, now that I've got some time...

There were a number of problems with what Atari did with the 5200 and 7800.

The first, which techno-nerds just cannot consider, is that- at least back in those days- gamers were just that: gamers.

Therefore, human psychology had to be considered. I was around in 1984, when Atari decided to abandon the 5200 in favor of the 7800 (this was just before the ill-fated Tramiel takeover...GRRRR!!!). What were the surviving videogaming magazines full of in those days? Letters from furious 5200 owners, who rightfully felt used and abandoned by Atari. Remember that the 5200 was released in late 1982, and abandoned by mid-1984, just 1 1/2 years later.

They did not care about the awesomenewtechnology(honklikegeese)the7800sported! !!!!!!!! All they cared about was that their faith in Atari was clearly misplaced. In other words, more sensible.

A reply to my original post mentioned what the 7800 might have been eventually capable of.

True, but...could the same not be said for the 5200?

Look at images of Millipede and Super Pac-Man. Nobody can deny that these were fantastic translations, easily as good as you could possibly want.

Rather than just going with the 7800 (whole new system), what Atari should have considered was this:

In order to play the better-looking versions of Joust and Dig-Dug, for example, you had to get a whole new system, PLUS the cartridges themselves.

5200+5200 Dig Dug+5200 Joust+(Existing 5200 Library) + 7800+7800 Joust+7800 Dig Dug= More Money Spent.

Now, quite frankly, Centipede, Robotron: 2084, and Ms. Pac-Man were not exactly a Great Step Up from the 5200 to the 7800. In fact, I actually like Centipede a bit better on the 5200; it has more of the arcade look and feel about it. As for the other two, it would not be worth abandoning the 5200 for.

Therefore, if Atari just HAD to do better versions, just do them for the 5200. Joust and Dig Dug, for example. Look at the ColecoVision versions of those games; had they been 100% completed, they would have blown the doors off of the 5200 versions, and could easily have stood up to the 7800 versions. The 5200 could have done about as well, I'd imagine?

After all, if you'd be willing to buy a WHOLE NEW SYSTEM to play better looking versions, why not better versions for the existing systems?

There was also what I call "the connection." The games the 5200 came out with, and had intended to come out with, were all relatively recent. People like their home consoles to come out with versions of relatively recent arcade games, as well as classics, and the 5200 did just that.

But the 7800, by the time it actually got any real exposure (even in the much more affluent and populated area I used to live in, it was not really until 1988), had what? Ms. Pac-man. Dig Dug. Robotron: 2084. Food Fight (looking like a well-done 2600 Activision game, surely the 5200 could have done it!). A so-so version of Galaga, which, judging by its version of Galaxian, the ColecoVision could've pounded. And...

Well, you get the idea. Too much time had passed, and now it was Nintendo's and Sega's world. What recent arcade games had the 7800 to offer? And its classics were already mostly available on earlier systems, or the NES (Galaga and Xevious, for example). That "connection" was just not there, which is why the poor 7800 did not generate the excitement the 5200 did.

[rxd]

The upshot to the 7800 is not only that you don't have to deal with the craptacular 5200 controller, but you also don't need an adaptor to play the older games. Hence why we never bothered with a 5200, according to my parents.

But really, if you compare the 7800's later titles, they fare quite nicely against the 5200's exclusive games. Commando, Ikari Warriors, Alien Brigade, Xenophobe, Scrapyard Dog, Ninja Golf, hell, even Super Huey are all pretty damn cool games, and I'd put them up against the best of the 5200 anytime.

That said, you CAN tell that the 5200 games were actually given a budget to work with, as opposed to the 7800 programmers working with whatever scraps the XE and 2600 had left over.

Yea but be fair here. You're comparing 1982-1984 games to 1989-1990 games. I would hope they'd be quite a bit better. If you compare similar games that came out in the same time frame the 5200 stands up quite well. I actually much prefer the 5200, but that's just my opinion. I always felt if Atari wanted to release another system after the 5200 it should have been backwards compatible with that, not the 2600. Talk about going back in the wrong direction. Don't get me wrong I love the 2600 too, but that's not exactly fprward thinking there. plus they had a 2600 adapter for the 5200 if you were that hard up for 2600 games. I just think Atari had no idea of what they were doing back then at all...

[ubersaurus]

Yea but be fair here. You're comparing 1982-1984 games to 1989-1990 games. I would hope they'd be quite a bit better. If you compare similar games that came out in the same time frame the 5200 stands up quite well. I actually much prefer the 5200, but that's just my opinion. I always felt if Atari wanted to release another system after the 5200 it should have been backwards compatible with that, not the 2600. Talk about going back in the wrong direction. Don't get me wrong I love the 2600 too, but that's not exactly fprward thinking there. plus they had a 2600 adapter for the 5200 if you were that hard up for 2600 games. I just think Atari had no idea of what they were doing back then at all...

The problem is that none of the games came out in the same time frame. 5200 is 82-84. 7800 is 86-90. Some 7800 games had work done on them in 84, but that's about as close as you can possibly get to any sort of crossover.

If you want to compare the same game on both machines, there's pluses and minuses to both. Ballblazer, Robotron, Joust, Choplifter, Asteroids, and Dig Dug all spring to mind as superior games on the 7800 compared to the 5200. And judging from the prototype work done on Fractalus, or the 5200 proto of Xevious, I'd likely have to favor the 7800 version of those as well. But I can't argue that the 5200 had a better version of Centipede, and comparable versions of games like Mario Bros and Ms. Pac Man.

The crossover games of both consoles really is quite small, either way. 5200 has good stuff like Moon Patrol, Gremlins, Berzerk, Qix, Mountain King, Missile Command, and River Raid. 7800 had quality titles like Food Fight, Commando, Crossbow, Rampage, Ikari Warriors, and Tower Toppler. They kind of complement each other in some bizarre way.

But really you have to look at it this way. The 2600 was THE commercial success of the time, and was much, much more popular than the 5200. In comparison, the 5200 was a bomb, and the fact that it was blatantly just an 8bit computer with shitty controllers didn't help things against the Colecovision. If you're going to be backwards compatible with something, may as well make it the system that sold well, vs the lethargic one :P

[Rob2600]

The 5200 was released in a different era of video gaming. People weren't used to upgrading to a new video game console every few years. To make matters worse, many of the games released for the 5200 were already released for the 2600. The entire situation didn't make sense to a lot of parents. Why should they buy a new Atari when they already owned an Atari? Why should they buy a new Space Invaders when they already owned Space Invaders? Why should they buy a new Asteroids when they already owned Asteroids?

Yes, the 5200 versions had better graphics, but many parents didn't see that as a selling point back then. The 5200 had an uphill battle from the start.

The 7800 was designed in 1984 and released in 1986. By the time Atari really started to market it against the NES, it was already three years outdated, so it too had an uphill battle from the start.

On top of that, Atari once again released the same games it had released for the 2600 and later for the 5200. Why? Who wanted to buy Dig Dug, Centipede, and Asteroids yet again? Everyone had played and owned those games already. Besides, the "static screen" style of game play was old-fashioned by then. Most people had moved on to new types of games, like Super Mario Bros., Metroid, Mega Man, Castlevania, and Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!

What's interesting is that the Famicom/NES was designed a year before the 7800, yet had superior graphics and sound. Another strike against the 7800.

Overall, I think the 5200 had potential, but needed new styles of games and was released during an awkward period in video gaming. The 7800 was too outdated for its time, both in terms of hardware and games.

For what it's worth, the Lynx is still of one the most impressive portable consoles. Electrocop, Ninja Gaiden, Klax, and California Games hold their own against current Game Boy Advance games. Of course, two AA batteries in a Game Boy Advance can last up to 30 hours, while six AA batteries in a Lynx last up to two hours. :)

[ubersaurus]

I've seen 7800 games that looked on par with what the NES had. The only thing that the NES had over it when you get right down to it is that Nintendo cared enough about the machine to put R&D into new mappers, and onboard cartridge additions. If more 7800 games had the RAM and sound chips that the system was designed around, it would have been a different affair entirely. Seriously, the MARIA is a pretty strong little processor for it's time!

[Rob2600]

I've seen 7800 games that looked on par with what the NES had.

That's cool. Can you name a couple of those 7800 games? You probably have more experience with the 7800 than I do.

I'll keep an open mind, but I'm skeptical. I can't imagine any 7800 games looking as good as Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!, Track & Field II, Ninja Gaiden, Super Mario Bros. 2, Life Force, etc., but I'm curious to see what it can do!

[ubersaurus]

That's cool. Can you name a couple of those 7800 games? You probably have more experience with the 7800 than I do.

I'll keep an open mind, but I'm skeptical. I can't imagine any 7800 games looking as good as Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!, Track & Field II, Ninja Gaiden, Super Mario Bros. 2, Life Force, etc., but I'm curious to see what it can do!

Look for any of the late-release games, because that's when atari actually started putting money into the system.

Scrapyard Dog, Midnight Mutants, Alien Brigade, Commando, Ninja Golf, Xenophobe, Mean 18 Golf, Fatal Run, Ikari Warriors...

The only problem is that last I checked most of the screenshots to be found online were done in an emulator with poor color accuracy, so you get like puke green skies and purple skinned people and shit.

[Rob2600]

Look for any of the late-release games, because that's when atari actually started putting money into the system.

Scrapyard Dog, Midnight Mutants, Alien Brigade, Commando, Ninja Golf, Xenophobe, Mean 18 Golf, Fatal Run, Ikari Warriors...

Okay, I just checked out some accurate screen shots and reviews of the 7800 games you mentioned, plus others. Some of the games have graphics that were better than I was expecting...*almost* as good as the NES in some cases...but still not quite up to NES quality.

It's weird...the graphics in a bunch of 7800 games have some touches of 2600 to them, like the hoop and the players in One-On-One Basketball, the characters in Ikari Warriors, everything in Double Dragon, everything in Crossbow, the backgrounds in Choplifter, everything in Super Skateboardin', the characters in Summer Games, etc. Those low-res, blocky, monotone elements make the games look older than they really are. Why did the artists do that?

Also, it seems like several 7800 games run in some weird, slightly stretched-out resolution, like Galaga, Ikari Warriors, Crack'ed, and Double Dragon. Have you noticed that?

It also seems like overall, the 7800 had a lower resolution than the NES. All of the games have a thick, chunky look to them and there's a lack of detail.

I suppose screen shots don't do some of the 7800 games justice. I understand that the graphics in some games need to be seen in motion to be fully appreciated. All in all though, I guess if it weren't for the NES and SMS, some of these games would look much more impressive.

[ubersaurus]

My understanding is that the 7800 has several resolution modes, but only one game ever used anything but the lowest, Tower Toppler. The highest resolution modes can't do color, and that aforementioned one used in parts of Tower Toppler isn't capable of great color depth on screen. Presumeably, it also has something to do with how small the cartridge size atari was forcing them to make their games within to save on money.

Of course, it's been a long time since I read these things, so I may not be entirely accurate ;p

You may also want to check out the screenshots of the unreleased Missing in Action game for the 7800. Interestingly modern programmers have found out that the 7800, with at least 16k cartridge RAM, can create polygons. Check this thread: http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=62320&hl=

Edit: Here's that thread I was thinking of, about the 7800's graphic modes: http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=37049&hl=

[Rob2600]

Also, it seems like several 7800 games run in some weird, slightly stretched-out resolution, like Galaga, Ikari Warriors, Crack'ed, and Double Dragon. Have you noticed that?

It also seems like overall, the 7800 had a lower resolution than the NES. All of the games have a thick, chunky look to them and there's a lack of detail.

Thanks for the links. I just read the information on http://atari7800.xwiki.com/xwiki/bin/view/Main/NES and I am right. "The NES NTSC pixel aspect ratio is about 10:9, while the 7800 NTSC pixel aspect ratio is 5:3 (160 resolution)." NES pixels are very close to being square (10% stretched out), while 7800 pixels are not even close to being square (40% stretched out).

Also, like you said, the majority of 7800 games ran at a much lower resolution than NES games.

I'm curious as to which Atari console has more graphical power: the 7800 or the XE?

[Aswald]

The Atari 7800 did have another overwhelming problem: Tramielitis. A fatal condition.

I happen to have the cartridges and instruction booklets for both the 5200 and 7800 versions. Just take one look at them. The former, beautiful. The latter...bleah.

You just couldn't shake the feeling that Atari in 1988 didn't know what- or what it wanted- to do. Did they want to support the 7800? If so, why were things so obviously done "on the cheap?" If they didn't, why did they put it out on the market at all? Were they just trying to squeeze a few more dollars out of us? Naw...after all, who would ever trust them again?

An earlier post here mentioned several games, such as Ikari Warriors and Alien Brigade. But by this time, the NES and SMS were firmly established as the only really important systems, and we were just entering the 16-Bit era. It was just too little, too late. 1984-1986 were THE crucial years, and Atari missed it completely.

I purchased a 7800 in mid-1988 (for Joust)*. I noticed that every single time it looked as though Atari was about to become respectable (serious), they would inevitably do something to ruin it. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: where the hell were the level/boss games (e.g. Gradius, etc.) and RPGs which were so popular in the latter half of the 1980s?

At least, with Qix, Ms. Pac-Man, Berzerk, Robotron: 2084, and such, the 5200 had a "current" feel about it, as did ColecoVision with Zaxxon, Pepper 2, Donkey Kong Jr., etc.

* Had the CV version of Joust been 100% completed and released, I would never have purchased a 7800.

[Rob2600]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: where the hell were the level/boss games (e.g. Gradius, etc.) and RPGs which were so popular in the latter half of the 1980s?

At least, with Qix, Ms. Pac-Man, Berzerk, Robotron: 2084, and such, the 5200 had a "current" feel about it, as did ColecoVision with Zaxxon, Pepper 2, Donkey Kong Jr., etc.

I agree. I wrote in an earlier post that with the 7800, Atari once again released the same games it had released for the 2600 and later for the 5200. Why? Who wanted to buy Dig Dug, Centipede, Asteroids, etc. yet again? Everyone played and owned those games already. They weren't cool anymore and the "static screen" style of game play was old-fashioned by then. Most people had moved on to new types of games, like Super Mario Bros., Metroid, Mega Man, and Castlevania.

[Aswald]

It seems even stranger when you consider when it was SUPPOSED to have come out. Remember, it was supposed to have been in plenty of time for the holiday season of 1984. The fact that these games came out in 1988 (give or take) was just because of the Tramiel takeover.

So, if you purchased Ms. Pac-Man for your 5200 in 1983, the 7800 version would be out in 1984! Likewise several other games.

It really is a poor way to run things. You didn't get any sense that Atari was going to stick with anything after 1984.