Not responsible for lost packages - does not protect you

[veronica_marsfan]

Let's try a thought experiment:

- I buy a game from you.
- You ship it to me, and for whatever reason I never get it.
- I call my Visa card and tell them, "I was charged $20 for a game I never got."

What do you think will happen next?



Answer:
- Visa reverses the $20 charge.
- Paypal asks seller (you) for proof of delivery.
- You have delivery confirmation, [and the seller typed the DC number into paypal as "proof of shipment"], but because the post office lost it & never delivered the item, the DC shows no record of delivery.
- Paypal sucks $20 out of your account & refunds it back to Visa.


You lost 20 bucks. It doesn't matter if you say, "Not responsible for lost packages." Neither Paypal nor my Visa card will care. It sucks for us sellers, but that's how it works.

[XianXi]

Are you using Paypal shipping or providing Paypal with a DC#?

[veronica_marsfan]

Answer:
- Visa reverses the $20 charge.
- Paypal asks seller (you) for proof of delivery.
- You have delivery confirmation, but because the post office lost it & never delivered the item, the DC show no record of delivery.
- Paypal sucks $20 out of your account & refunds it back to Visa.

[XianXi]

Answer:
- Visa reverses the $20 charge.
- Paypal asks seller (you) for proof of delivery.
- You have delivery confirmation, but because the post office lost it & never delivered the item, the DC show "undelivered".
- Paypal sucks $20 out of your account & refunds it back to Visa.

That still doesnt answer my question, reread it.

[Kitsune Sniper]

I think veronica_marsfan is trying to prove a hypothetical point or something.

If the package says "undelivered", then why would Paypal take the money from your account? There's proof that it was sent, even if it was never delivered.

[XianXi]

I think veronica_marsfan is trying to prove a hypothetical point or something.

If the package says "undelivered", then why would Paypal take the money from your account? There's proof that it was sent, even if it was never delivered.

Not it doesnt. There are many variables in this case. If you used paypal shipping and the post office never did an acceptance scan it looks as if you never sent the package regardless of having the assigned DC#. Meaning you're responsible.

If you shipped it in person and have a scanned receipt that it was sent along with a DC# it is better proof to paypal.

Also karma if you overcharge shipping to your customers for everythng you should be paying for.

Plus I've never seen an "Undelivered" response from the website when checking a DC#. Please do a screenshot of it.

[veronica_marsfan]

Neither have I. Please pardon my sloppiness. I corrected the first message.

Yes the seller typed the DC number into paypal as "proof", but because the DC shows the package was never delivered, paypal will refund the money to the buyer's Visa Credit card.

If the package says "undelivered", then why would Paypal take the money from your account? There's proof that it was sent, even if it was never delivered.

This is not a hypothetical.
- U.S. Law requires the seller deliver the package.
- If the seller never did that, U.S. Law requires a refund.
- Paypal (and Visa) follow U.S. law.



Perhaps instead of a fake case, I should cite my own experience:
- I bought Final Fantasy 12
- Seller shipped it via paypal shipping (as shown in my transaction page)
- It never arrived
- I filed claim and seller proceeded to have a hissy fit with lots of nasty emails saying, "I shipped this item! And you know it! I have proof I shipped it! I don't owe you anything!"
-
- Well I checked the delivery confirmation number in my transaction page, and all it said was "we have received notice of a shipment....." blah blah blah. No indication that it was ever delivered to any home. So I happily got my $35 back.

Buyers are not required to
pay for items they never receive.
This is common sense.
(Also U.S. law.)

[XianXi]

I've only lost one package but it was insured so there was no problem. I always push buyers to get insurance.

[veronica_marsfan]

I never buy insurance.

There's no need when I have Paypal, my Visa card, and U.S. Law backing me. Sellers are required to delivery the item in working order.

If they don't, I get a refund; it's mandatory.

[XianXi]

I never buy insurance.

There's no need when I have Paypal, my Visa card, and U.S. Law backing me. Sellers are required to delivery the item in working order.

If they don't I get a refund; it's mandatory.

Not if its sold AS IS though but most sellers dont put AS IS in the first 2 sentences so it usually doesnt count. I dont do it either but I know about the paypal rule. weird.

[Kitsune Sniper]

- Well I checked the delivery confirmation number in my transaction page, and all it said was "we have received notice of a shipment....." blah blah blah. No indication that it was ever delivered to any home. So I happily got my $35 back.

Well, that's because the seller used electronic shipping. If you use that (like Paypal shipping) there won't be a record of it getting shipped, but if you're like me and use the normal DC labels, there's a record of the date, time and location where it was shipped from, even if it was not delivered.

[veronica_marsfan]

Uh huh.

You'll see. One of these days a package will disappear, you'll say to Paypal, "I have proof it was shipped with my US Postal Receipt, plus delivery confirmation."

And paypal will look at that and say, "Not good enough" and refund the money to your buyer.



And if it's a Visa/Mastercard chargeback, the results will be slightly-different but basically the same. A forced refund to the buyer.

They are enforcing U.S. Law which states a buyer MUST receive the item, and if the buyer does not, then it is the seller's responsibility to refund the cost (even if the fault lies with the shipper).

[Porksta]

I have seen "Undeliverable" before with some other traders. I forget what does it though.

[bunnyboy]

If you shipped it in person and have a scanned receipt that it was sent along with a DC# it is better proof to paypal.

I have been nailed by this before, the physical USPS receipt is useless because it does not show the full address the package was sent to. Even when I had a photograph of the Global Priority flat rate envelope with the serial number matching the receipt but PayPal would not accept it. After many weeks of emails PayPal finally agreed that the receipt means nothing.

[Kitsune Sniper]

I have been nailed by this before, the physical USPS receipt is useless because it does not show the full address the package was sent to. Even when I had a photograph of the Global Priority flat rate envelope with the serial number matching the receipt but PayPal would not accept it. After many weeks of emails PayPal finally agreed that the receipt means nothing.

Uh, but if you have the receipt and the delivery confirmation receipt? The one where you write down the address you shipped the item to?

[veronica_marsfan]

Uh, but if you have the receipt and the delivery confirmation receipt? The one where you write down the address you shipped the item to?

U.S. Law requires the item to be DELIVERED. Not shipped. Delivered.

If you can not prove the item was delivered, you're in violation of the law.

[Buyatari]

You guys are acting as if this is new.


If you don't have proof the buyer got the package you are out the money. CC or no CC you are out if the buyer doesn't get it if you use paypal.

Been like this for some time.

[ryborg]

What veronica_marsfan is saying is correct, but that doesn't mean that it's likely to happen. I've been stung by the un-scanned DC "never received item" example mentioned above exactly once out of ~10,000+ packages sent since Paypal opened.

Maybe I'm lucky, or maybe that's the actual rate it happens. Either way, when you buy or sell something online, you are taking a very minor risk. As a buyer, the item may not arrive and the seller may be covered, or as a seller, you may have done your job, but the item did not arrive and you are screwed. That is the potential price of convenience and one that I'm always willing to accept.

If you're unwilling to accept that minor risk, do what I tell potential customers who are psychotically nervous about their package not arriving -- buy your items from an actual store.

[Felixthegamer]

You got your money back, what's the big deal? Lost packages suck, but it does happen from time to time. The fault may be with your mail man. We never had a lost package until we moved. We live in the same city with the same post office, but new mail man. He does not know how to leave a package nor a notice and two packages are missing because of it.

[veronica_marsfan]

You got your money back, what's the big deal?

This thread was opened in response to _______ (a seller) who falsely claims, "If you do not buy insurance Veronica, I am not responsible for a lost or damaged item." I wanted to set the record straight.