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    Default The double- edged Wii – Economic Success and Game Quality

    It was the best of systems, it was the worst of systems. The Wii produces unprecedented controversies.

    The Wii is undoubtedly THE most successful system of the new generation. Its success explains the way some people have attacked it and the way other have so vigorously defended it. Although its competitors have been doing much better in the last three months, the Wii dominates hardware sales worldwide and particularly in the most important market, the US – most predictions notwithstanding, among them mine. Two years ago I said that the Wii will be a very distant third to the PS3 and Xbox 360. Famous last words!

    I content that the economic success of the Wii is a tragedy for game quality and the popularity of games but has also some positive aspects for game development.

    The system was marketed and built around a not-so-new control scheme, the motion sensing Wii remote. This control scheme is the only reason for buying the system. After all, no one in his right mind would have paid $250 for a mere slightly enhanced GC in 2006 when the then top-notch GC cost $200 in 2001; and let’s face it, the Wii without the Wii remote is just a super-white shining version of the GC. Five years behind in technology, it can’t hold water to its competitors.

    The question is if the new controls compensate for the lack of technology – the system was marketed as such promising innovation through the new controls.

    16 months after its release we can certainly say that the new control scheme is an utter disappointment on all fronts. I have been carefully reading reviews of Wii games since its release, and objective observers cannot even remotely come to another conclusion. It was a marketing gimmick, nothing else - and a very successful one.

    The controls simply don’t deliver – even measured by lower expectations and disregarding the euphoric sword, baton, and club swinging commercials in 2006.

    The motion sensing isn’t refined enough for rich game play. Faster movements are inadequately translated onto the screen. The technological barrier produces necessarily shallow game play. The fun is short and certainly not sweet. It’s not long before boredom sets in. The exemplary role models of Wii Play and Wii Sports are as good as it gets.

    1:1 motion sensing is a failure in sword games like Red Steel, Soulcalibur Legends, Dragon Blade, and Twilight Princess, in golf games like Tiger Woods, the list of disappointing games is extremely long. The evaluations range from terrible to at best ‘doesn’t mess up the game.’ Metroid Prime 3 is with standard buttons as good as with the Wii and Nunchuk. The motion sensing doesn’t contribute a thing to game play – it is nothing more than tucked-on little gimmicky game play elements..

    Table Tennis should have been the ideal game for the Wii. Because of inaccurate controls the result was a disappointing party game at best while the original game on the 360 with standard button controls is one of the best sports games I have ever played.

    The recent ‘No More Heroes’ actually gets praise for its Wii controls. It was a big surprise for sure; but the praise actually points to the failure of the Wii remote. Motion sensing is dramatically reduced and dumbed down. Sword swinging is done by - surprise! - the tried and proved standard buttons. It works well, we have known that for decades. Motion sensing is reduced to up and down flickers and shaking once in a while. Incredibly, some messages can be heard through the speakers on the Wii remote – truly an innovative revolution in game experience (not).

    To be sure, the Wii doesn’t prevent good games. No technology does, otherwise I wouldn’t play Bionic Commando, Ninja Gaiden, or In The Hunt every once in a while, and I’ll enjoy Super Paper Mario to no end. The point is that these high quality games developed by Nintendo itself could be on the other systems or on the GC. What makes them great has nothing to do with the new controls. This is exactly the reason why the Wii controls are nothing other than a very successful marketing gimmick.

    I very often hear that lamentations about the Wii are futile. In the end, it contributes to a diverse game library. You have your PS3 or 360, and the Wii is not an alternative but a complimentary system. This is absolutely right. However, the danger of the gimmicky Wii controls and image is a simple one - its extraordinary success. The more successful system will be copied.

    We already have the six-axis controller which is nothing other than a similar gimmick produced by Sony to counteract the image of the Wii, and these controls made the good Lair a sub-par game. While it is not surprising that shallow games with great images sometimes sell very well, the surprising success of the Wii sets a terrible precedent for the industry. Let’s just hope we won’t get a motion sensing controller for the 360.

    There are positive aspects about the Wii for sure, and they have a lot to do with why this system is so successful.

    First, the Wii success reminds game designers how important simplicity and shorter challenges in games are, and how important simple controls are. The success of the Wii is a wake-up call for game developers. In the last decade game designers delivered richer game play overall with more complexity, not simplicity. More options, buttons and button combinations galore, controllers got more complex. This trend is certainly a hindrance to casual gamers who want to simply enjoy games or play them more frequently.

    Game developers underestimated one of the basic needs of every gamer, the casual ones and frequent ones alike - simplicity and challenge. This is exactly why we enjoy older games, why classic gaming experienced a renaissance in the last ten years, and the success of Xbox Live Arcade and the classic NES games on the Wii. Game development has to go more in the direction of GO and not chess. Simplicity doesn’t mean shallowness. Virtua Tennis showed how simple button controls can produce incredibly rich game play.

    Second, almost everyone underestimated the potential of attracting older age groups and women to gaming. Older gamers like me knew from the early arcade times that women can be as passionate about games as men and male teenagers, but women gamers have certainly been neglected during the last twenty years.

    It is great that casual gamers and non-gamers are buying consoles and becoming interested in games. The stable gender gap and gaps of age groups have to be closed - something Nintendo did with surprising success. It is high time to make new efforts to explore what game elements are attractive for the other sex and to rethink game design. The more gamers, the better – unless game quality is sacrificed on the altar of sales figures. Myst which got non-gamers interested in games was a great and rich game, games purely built around motion sensing are not.

    NOTE: My apologies for the length of this post. I’ve been carrying it around with me like an unborn child. It was a difficult birth.
    Last edited by lendelin; 02-10-2008 at 07:06 PM.

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    While I think that the Wii controls are not that great, I think that only time will tell if the Wii really is a spash in the Pan. The sad truth is that many people bought it for Wii Sports, which is a prime example of how the controls can work right. If the controls did not work right, there would not be such a demand for the system. What we have going on, is that there are good games on the Wii, outnumbered by some truly lousy stinkers.
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    I bought a Wii just after launch and don't necessarily regret it, but I do think the motion sensing controls have become more of a hinderance than a positive in a lot of the third party games I have played. Most of the first party games utilize motion control quite well, but to be honest with you, I don't exactly look forward to playing most of them because I'm a bit lazy when I play games, usually after a long day of work and other stuff. If I had kids, the Wii would be a great system for them. As for me, I just don't have the energy and wish they had made the system just a little more powerful so third party developers would develop unique IPs for it that did not involve motion controls. Just my two cents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lendelin View Post
    IAfter all, no one in his right mind would have paid $250 for a mere slightly enhanced GC in 2006 when the then top-notch GC cost $200 in 2001; and let’s face it, the Wii without the Wii remote is just a super-white shining version of the GC. Five years behind in technology, it can’t hold water to its competitors.
    IMO graphics plateaued in 1999 with the Dreamcast. Last night I played Crimson Skies for the first time and thought "wow these graphics are fantastic"...that game's four or five years old? This is why I haven't been moved by the "Wii's just Gamecube 1.5" argument. I haven't seen games with graphics much better than Metroid Prime or Resident Evil 4.

    In short:

    1982-1987...Huge improvement in console graphics.

    1992-1997...Huge improvement in console graphics.

    2002-2007...Little improvement in console graphics.

    Without the advent of HD I would actually say there's been NO improvement. I was very unimpressed with the 360 until I saw it in HD.

    I think Nintendo's goal was to bring gaming out of the teenager's basement and back into the family living room, and they succeeded. Do you feel a loss of ownership? I do. When I'm at the lunch table with my coworkers and they're discussing last night's Wii Sports session, suddenly I'm feeling left out in A CONVERSATION ABOUT VIDEOGAMES.

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    My apologies for the length of this post.
    Ah, it's okay. You make a lot of good points, though I will say all this been said before for the DS. A common sentiment back in late '06/early '07 was that "The DS has a bunch of interesting features, and it's defied all predictions and done well. However, it doesn't make full use of its features, and its library is filled with too-short, depthless games." And the Wii inherited this sentiment right around when it became successful.

    1982-1987...Huge improvement in console graphics.

    1992-1997...Huge improvement in console graphics.

    2002-2007...Little improvement in console graphics.
    AKA law of diminishing returns. Which is something you'd expect with graphics. The more colors, the less they're noticed; the more pixels, the less they're noticed; the more antialiasing, the less it's noticed. Check out these pictures for proof of the first point.
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    Nintendo + Gimmicks = No dice.

    Nintendo makes too many promises with "new devices" and doesn't deliver, history shows this.

    Instead of getting more DS/Wii cross support and more actual things I have been looking FORWARD TOO, I get "Wii Fit" and MORE AND MORE GIMMICKS. Great more stuff to buy till they bring out the good stuff...

    I don't like the way they are going with the Wii, all I see are a bunch of devices that are going to be useless and collect dust. As usual Nintendo needs to focus all it does around the things that have made them successful. Too often they abandon the projects that are suppose to "enhance" the experience and invest in new projects when they haven't even come close to tapping the potential of previous ones.

    If i'm going to spend that much on all these "gimmicks" they damn sure better have LOADS of games to back it up! AND I MEAN SOME GOOD STUFF! The only Wii game at the moment that interests me is the Dragon Quest Sword game. It seems like a step in the right direction.

    I wouldn't be so negative, but Nintendo always gets me pumped up with their new ideas only to give them half-ass support. My theory is Nintendo uses all these "gimmicks" to help financially support the occasional great game they make "face it they can make some great ones when they really focus".

    I'm not buying into all this junk for now though, I got burned by last gen Gameboy Advance/Gamecube connectivity and i'm not looking for a hole to throw my money in. I have become more skeptical with bigN as time goes on.

    Good post btw, hope I didn't get too far off topic but I think you bring up some good points and sound relevent to where Nintendo stands as a company.



    P.S. They better not screw up the next Animal Crossing and where is a "DECENT <----key word" Wii Pokemon game!......FORGET ALL THIS FOO FOO FLUFFY POO POO. HARDCORE FOO FOO FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Ok, I may need to go to bed now. ~_^
    Last edited by BHvrd; 02-10-2008 at 09:22 PM.

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    If I understand what the original poster is saying: You're saying that the Wii is an okay console with a few great games and a motion sensing gimmick that drew in non-gamers. You're forgetting the second gimmick: low supply. Whether intentional or not, the fact that it was and remains so difficult to get one certainly contributed to people wanting one.

    I, for one, love the Wii on several levels. As a gamer, I'm crazy about Super Mario Galaxy and the Virtual Console (though I've yet to actually buy anything for it, I still like window shopping). As a member of a family, I love playing Sports and Play with my wife and children, not to mention Everybody Votes and Check Mii Out. As a couch potato, I love surfing the internet from my couch; hitting YouTube for instance and watching a pile of GameTrailers.com clips.

    So, if you're saying the Wii isn't "winning" because of its library of games, but because of its gimmicks, then I can't disagree with you, but I still love its gimmicks, at least in the games I've been playing (SMG, Sports and Play).
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    BHvrd: At the end there, you remind me of what's-his-name... the one person who was a really successful troll around here until he got banned. What was his name again?

    Anyways, I just found this great article on not just the Wii, but the gaming industry as a whole. Be prepared to think "Why didn't I think of that?" at some of the things in there. Unfortunately, the guy is a bit biased (read: major Nintendo whore) (actually, like quite a few people on this board) and the article was released before the Wii was, so there's no commentary on how good the controls are outside of speculation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CartCollector View Post
    Anyways, I just found this great article on not just the Wii, but the gaming industry as a whole. Be prepared to think "Why didn't I think of that?" at some of the things in there. Unfortunately, the guy is a bit biased (read: major Nintendo whore) (actually, like quite a few people on this board) and the article was released before the Wii was, so there's no commentary on how good the controls are outside of speculation.
    I agree with the core points of the article. I also believe that game design and genres and consoles go through cycles. The Wii will be important because it influences future game development. Its success cannot be ignored.

    The Wii might also be an indicator for reenforced developments similar to the book and movie industry.

    Diversification of games from Mass Effect to Wii Sports and penetrating segmented customer groups might become stronger developments than we eexpected. After all, we get Lord of the Rings, and also Talladega Nights, the Adam Sandler and Will Ferrell movies, and movies explicitly made only for certain age groups.

    Nintendo went with the Wii the shallowTalladega Nights route. I still have the most respect for Nintendo as a game developer; certainly they have been milking franchises (Mario Party and many others) but for core games it is still one of the few developers which polish their games and do not rush them because of set release dates.

    Unfortunately, as a hardware manufacturer Nintendo lost all my respect. The moment Miyamoto, Iwata, and Nintendo's PR departments stressed that gamers are not interested in graphics but only in short innovative games, and the Wii mote is the future of gaming, I felt duped.

    It irks me and it is bothersome if a PR department of a track and field club tries to convince me that it is actually an advantage for a sprinter to have only one arm, and sells this as the future of the 100m and 200m dash. This is particularly disturbing after the same club stressed for two decades how important the movement of both arms is in order to achieve good times.

    I cannot imagine that I would have bought in 1991 a slightly enhanced version of the NES with an advanced R.O.B., and the Genesis would have been presented as a powerful but nonetheless standard game systems avoiding innovation. Nonsense.
    Last edited by lendelin; 02-11-2008 at 01:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CartCollector View Post
    BHvrd: At the end there, you remind me of what's-his-name... the one person who was a really successful troll around here until he got banned. What was his name again?

    Anyways, I just found this great article on not just the Wii, but the gaming industry as a whole. Be prepared to think "Why didn't I think of that?" at some of the things in there. Unfortunately, the guy is a bit biased (read: major Nintendo whore) (actually, like quite a few people on this board) and the article was released before the Wii was, so there's no commentary on how good the controls are outside of speculation.
    That was an excellent article. Danc articulates many of my "thoughts" on the subject very nicely - I found myself constantly nodding my head and thinking "exactly!" while reading it. It's an excellent essay...

    As for the Wii, I agree that a lot of what's being said about it now in the gaming press and on the 'Net appears to echo reactions to the DS in it's first 12-18 months of life. I reserve judgment on how well the controls work until I actually own one and can devote time to the more "hardcore" games, but my experience with them in a social/casual context playing Wii Sports with friends has been nothing but positive. The machine's a lot of fun at a party!

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    I don't get why "gimmick" suddenly became an insult when the DS and Wii came around. Guitar Hero is a gimmick, but people don't seem to make snide comments about it. Lots of popular games were gimmicky. That doesn't mean they're not good.

    I don't get why some people are so disappointed in the Wii controller. It pretty much works exactly as I expected it to before I ever touched the system. And it can add much to the game experience. For example, I think Ghost Squad is great with the Wiimote, and way better than playing a light gun game with an analog or digital control pad. And I for one wouldn't give a damn about yet another Medal of Honor game, but Heroes 2 sparked my interest specifically because of the controller (well, that and the arcade mode).
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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    Guitar Hero is a gimmick, but people don't seem to make snide comments about it. Lots of popular games were gimmicky. That doesn't mean they're not good.
    If it works, it is not a gimmick. Guitar Hero works and does what it supposed to do, motion sensing doesn't; if Harmonix would have produced not only a couple of games but a hardware system for its games -- at least we could say that the controller works very well.

    R.O.B. was a gimmick, but at least the NES wasn't built and marketed around it, and the machine could compete with systems of its generation. The Wii cannot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mezrabad View Post
    So, if you're saying the Wii isn't "winning" because of its library of games, but because of its gimmicks, then I can't disagree with you, but I still love its gimmicks, at least in the games I've been playing (SMG, Sports and Play).
    Granted, but the question is if three or four games which are fun for the family justify the price of an outdated console which gets really expensive with the costs of controllers for multiplayer fun.

    The discrepancy of the innovation image created by Nintendo's PR department and the actual gameplay irks me to no end. There is nothing innovative about the system nor the controls. This is what makes motion sensing a gimmick. A system designed around half baked controls in order to create an image. It worked.

    We'll get Wii fit, too, and probably some people actaully believe that playing games leads to weight loss. Frightening and disillusional.

    I, for one, love the Wii on several levels. As a gamer, I'm crazy about Super Mario Galaxy and the Virtual Console (though I've yet to actually buy anything for it, I still like window shopping).
    Sure, I'll love Mario Galaxy for sure and will play it, and I like classic games as well...but my point is that this has nothing to do with the new control scheme.
    Last edited by lendelin; 02-11-2008 at 12:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lendelin View Post
    1:1 motion sensing is a failure in sword games like Red Steel, Soulcalibur Legends, Dragon Blade, and Twilight Princess, in golf games like Tiger Woods, the list of disappointing games is extremely long.
    The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess received a 9.5 out of 10 overall. Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07 and Tiger Woods PGA Tour 08 both received a 7.3 out of 10 overall. Since when is that disappointing?

    Games like Red Steel and Soulcalibur Legends were disappointing because they were bad. Vampire Rain and Pimp My Ride for the Xbox 360 were bad, too. It's not the controller's fault, it's the developer's fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by lendelin View Post
    Metroid Prime 3 is with standard buttons as good as with the Wii and Nunchuk.
    Really? According to IGN's review:

    "Metroid Prime 3's new Wii-enhanced control scheme is so good and so responsive that by comparison the original title and its sequel feel clumsy. In fact, using the nunchuk's analog stick to control Samus through environments as you point the Wii remote to target with speed and accuracy obliterates just about every dual-analog control setup currently available. If there is a game that proves the potential of the Wii remote for first-person experiences, this is it, and our hat is off to Retro for stepping up to the challenge when others couldn't or wouldn't. ... Controls better than any console first-person game before it."

    According to Gamespot's review:

    "the Wii controls are terrific and intuitive, so if you hoped that controlling bounty hunter Samus Aran would be a dream, that wish has been granted ... an intuitive and configurable scheme that sets the standard for first-person shooting controls on the Wii"

    Quote Originally Posted by lendelin View Post
    the question is if three or four games which are fun for the family justify the price of an outdated console
    In what way is the Wii outdated? It reads optical discs, outputs very nice high-resolution graphics, and outputs Dolby surround sound. Is it as advanced as the Xbox 360 or the PlayStation 3? No, but as Kid Ice pointed out, "graphics plateaued in 1999 with the Dreamcast. ... I haven't seen games with graphics much better than Metroid Prime or Resident Evil 4. ... Without the advent of HD I would actually say there's been NO improvement."

    I wouldn't go quite as far as Kid Ice, but I definitely agree with his overall thought. Graphics have been improving since 1999, but not drastically. Compare Metropolis Street Racer on the Dreamcast to Burnout: Paradise on the PlayStation 3. Yes, of course, there's a difference in graphics, but it's not an amazingly huge difference. Compare Dead or Alive 2 on the Dreamcast to Dead or Alive 4 on the Xbox 360. Again, there is of course a difference in graphics, but - again - not an amazingly huge difference.

    Even if some "hard core" gamers insist that the graphics in Dead or Alive 4 are a million times better than the graphics in Dead or Alive 2, "casual" or "mainstream" gamers don't notice a difference. I'm serious, they really don't. To my girlfriend, my family, and my friends, the graphics in good Wii games (Super Mario Galaxy, Resident Evil: The Umbrella Chronicles, Link's Crossbow Training, Zack & Wiki, etc.) look just as good as the graphics in Xbox 360 or PlayStation 3 games.

    Quote Originally Posted by lendelin View Post
    There is nothing innovative about the system nor the controls. This is what makes motion sensing a gimmick. A system designed around half baked controls in order to create an image. It worked.
    I'm glad Nintendo went with motion control. I like it. Do all Wii games use motion control extensively? No...and they shouldn't. Waving my arms back and forth for an hour to swim to different locations in Endless Ocean would be stupid. Thank goodness the developer didn't implement a control scheme like that. However, flicking my wrist to pull ropes, open bottles, and open doors in Zack & Wiki is cool and fun. When the Wii remote is used in subtle and clever ways like that, I'm more connected to the game than if I were just pressing the "A" or "R" buttons all the time.

    That said, I still play old games using standard controllers and they're fun and immersive too, but good Wii games pull me in even a little bit more.

    Quote Originally Posted by lendelin View Post
    We'll get Wii fit, too, and probably some people actaully believe that playing games leads to weight loss. Frightening and disillusional.
    Why is that frightening and disillusional? Wii Fit won't turn people into body builders, but I don't think anyone is expecting it to. It will help them get in shape though. I bet playing Wii Fit regularly (and properly) and eating properly would make a big difference in many people's lives.

    IGN - The Wii Fit Workout

    Also:

    Yahoo! News - Doctors use Wii games for rehab therapy

    "WakeMed Health has been using Wii games at its Raleigh, NC, hospital for patients as young as 9 'all the way up to people in their 80s,' said therapist Elizabeth Penny. 'They're getting improved endurance, strength, coordination. I think it's very entertaining for them.'"
    Last edited by Rob2600; 02-11-2008 at 01:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lendelin View Post
    Granted, but the question is if three or four games which are fun for the family justify the price of an outdated console which gets really expensive with the costs of controllers for multiplayer fun.
    If that is the question, then the answer, for my family at least, has been "Yes".

    $250 isn't really that much for the basic system, is it? I mean, the wireless network adaptor alone is worth $100 according to what the Xbox sells theirs for. It also came with a pack-in, Sports, so that's another $50 I didn't have to spend for my family to start having fun together right out of the box. So, for the price of $250 and one trip to Toys R Us, waaaay too early on a Sunday, I get the first gaming system in my home in 30 years that my entire immediate family (plus my parents) can play for three solid hours, three nights in a row and have a great time doing so.

    Is that worth it? Worth 250 bucks? YES! YES! Was the extra controller, along with another 9 games (on Play) worth $50? YES!

    My parents haven't been interested in a videogame since Space Invaders on the Atari VCS. My wife actually owned an original Odyssey back in 1972 and couldn't give a rat's ass about videogames. To have all of them enjoying the hell out of the Wii with the kids and myself was a complete blast.

    Can you show me a current gen-system that can entertain people aged 6 to 64 (literally, the ages of my daughter and my dad) with the same game that doesn't offend, frustrate or insult anyone in that age range of participants and cost less than $250?

    EDIT: Lendolin, I read beyond your response to my post and saw that you agreed that buying the Wii for family purposes is reasonable decision. For "family time w/ videogames" the Wii is a great package.

    I should admit, however, that I am impatient to get a 360 (or a new computer) because the games that appeal to me and either don't appeal or are inappropriate for the rest of my family(BioShock, Oblivion, GTAIV, Dead Rising, Orange Box and Final Fantasy XI to name a few) are only on the 360 (or a new computer). To get one game (BioShock will be first) plus wireless network adaptor and the pro/premium system will cost me at least $505. I'd rather get the Elite, but I either put the $100 extra bucks to the Elite or to the Wireless adaptor, I'm choosing the adaptor.

    Anyway, I see your point. Crappy, disappointing third party titles are bad for the industry as a whole. Gimmicks that don't keep the market's attention for too long are merely fads. Fads with heavily invested infrastructures that crash can cause a lot of collateral damage. Look at what it did in 1983!
    Last edited by mezrabad; 02-13-2008 at 07:35 PM. Reason: Read more of the thread...
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    Quote Originally Posted by CartCollector View Post
    ...though I will say all this been said before for the DS. A common sentiment back in late '06/early '07 was that "The DS has a bunch of interesting features, and it's defied all predictions and done well. However, it doesn't make full use of its features, and its library is filled with too-short, depthless games." And the Wii inherited this sentiment right around when it became successful.
    Exactly, I was one of the critics who said that the second screen is nothing else than an "innovation image" which sells well. The system has a fantastic game library, but not because of games which make use of the second screen. All Castlevania games could be on a single screen, the second screen is obsolete.

    The second screen of the DS is the motion sensing of the Wii. It gives the systems an undeserved innovative image, and it worked and sold systems. The DS was Nintendo's test run for the Wii.

    Nintendos strategy is even further entangled with the DS. The success of the handheld systems was the leg Nintendo stood on and with them Nintendo survived the lost console wars. Nintendo made of the Wii a cheap console system with games that have the characteristic of handheld games, family games, and short party games.

    Nintendo learned lessons in particular of the Japanese market. I said already in 2006 before the Wii was released that changed leisure time activities and with it the trend to shorter, simpler games make the startegy of Nintendo a smart business decision; the same goes for the potential to penetrate the non-gamer demographic.

    However, I thought of the Wii as a niche console, and completely didn't foresee its sucess. The sucess of the Wii is frightening. An outdated system with gimmicky controls that only work half way outsells the 360 2:1 and the PS3 4:1? Frightening.
    Last edited by lendelin; 02-11-2008 at 12:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Ice View Post
    IMO graphics plateaued in 1999 with the Dreamcast. Last night I played Crimson Skies for the first time and thought "wow these graphics are fantastic"...that game's four or five years old? This is why I haven't been moved by the "Wii's just Gamecube 1.5" argument. I haven't seen games with graphics much better than Metroid Prime or Resident Evil 4.

    In short:

    1982-1987...Huge improvement in console graphics.

    1992-1997...Huge improvement in console graphics.

    2002-2007...Little improvement in console graphics.

    Without the advent of HD I would actually say there's been NO improvement. I was very unimpressed with the 360 until I saw it in HD.

    I think Nintendo's goal was to bring gaming out of the teenager's basement and back into the family living room, and they succeeded. Do you feel a loss of ownership? I do. When I'm at the lunch table with my coworkers and they're discussing last night's Wii Sports session, suddenly I'm feeling left out in A CONVERSATION ABOUT VIDEOGAMES.
    I don't buy the law of diminishing returns. Certainly the difference of graphics between the 8-bit machines and 16-bit systems were much more dramatic than the jump from the last gen systems to the present ones.

    The difference is more than noticeable in graphics, and processing power doesn't affect graphics alone.

    The new systems are made for HD, and a couple of days ago I played my admired Gran Turismo 4 again in HD. I was a bit amazed. GT 4 on the PS2 is as good as it gets, it is a great game, but after I played Forza 2 some weeks before I was amazed about the difference in graphics. I played Need for Speed Most Wanted on the Gamecube (admittedly with composite cables on my vacation time in Germany), and then on the 360 at home on my HD set. Dramatic difference, same gameplay, very different game experience.

    Processing power also means refinement of physics engines and AI -- the latter a big challenge of game design in the future. The Wii just cannot compete.

    BTW, from a hardware standpoint the GC is still my favorite system. Do yourself a favor and buy an HDTV -- lots of GC games play in progressive scan and look gorgeous. (Zelda Collectors edition, and F-Zero GX, just great).

    I'm all for bringing consoles back to the living room and making games a more social experience -- but not at the price of gamequality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lendelin View Post
    NOTE: My apologies for the length of this post. I’ve been carrying it around with me like an unborn child. It was a difficult birth.
    Can I adopt it? It's very very rare that I agree with absolutely everything that someone's written.

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    As someone in his early 20's with only a Wii out of the modern gen of consoles and probably a lot more games for it than the normal wii owner i think i can give a different demo graphically view. I personally think the wii has good motion sensing controls, its just dependent on how well the developer applies there respective games. I'll be honest, the only first party games i have played for the wii are metroid prime 3, wii sports, and link's crossbow training but theres a ton of solid 3rd party games already that are improving on the usage of controls and innovative applications. No More Heroes and Zack & Wiki are probably the two best examples so far of non "gimmicky" applications.

    I hate to single you out Lendelin but I think people with your mind set are afraid to think outside of whats the norm in modern gaming. And it seems like you expect a onesided vied of how the wiimote is to be used "omg no swords wtfbbq." Really i think of the wii in the same way as the ds, its gonna take time for some reall fleashed out innovation with the control medium but after the first year or so the software really seems to kick ass only this time i think the wii had a much better first year.

    Also what is wrong with shorter games? really it seems like the longer games are full of filler no a days to try to extend already lacking game play. Older games, for the most part were a lot more cut and dry and were still fun. from a price stand point i'd say a lot of wii games seem to be priced accordingly overall. its hard to complain about a short $30 title.

    Theres nothing wrong with the 360 or ps3 but the wii seems to offer a more accessible experience plus a nice breath of fresh air.
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    I agree with DJ on the quick, fun factor. I have a 360, and I love it. But many 360 games are a huge investment of time, and sometimes I'd like a quick, fun experience. I haven't played Mass Effect yet, and I can't wait, but I know it is an investment. It speaks volumes about Wii Sports that a game with no story and simple, innovative gameplay can be enough to satisfy most Wii owners for quite a while.

    I agree that the Wii has failed on one level, and I think Nintendo realizes that, but they seem to have finally started crawling out of the "No good 3rd party support" hole. At the same time, they have a long way to go. The only must-have game on the horizon for me is Brawl, and I could see myself buying a Wii just to play it, whereas on the 360 I bought it with several games in mind. Even though the Wii has partially failed because its marketing was based heavily around the motion controls, it has also succeeded simultaneously in being marketed as a "complementary console."

    edit: btw lendelin, I really heart your Megaman avatars.
    Last edited by NinjaJoey23; 02-11-2008 at 11:54 AM.
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