I knew the way I worded that was going to come back to haunt me. ;-)Originally Posted by CartCollector
True it is a great multiplayer console.
In a poll a couple years ago it was found that more children worldwide recognized Mario than Mickey Mouse.
I completely agree. Your situation and the reasons you gave why the Wii is attractive for you makes very clear why the Wii is a success. Gamers like you were neglected, and family oriented games became a niche. Nintendo emphasized multiplayer games for the family, and it was successful. With increased living standards the families became smaller and the houses became bigger with multiple TVs. The result is that peer groups play together, not the family.As a long time gamer that owns only a Wii out of the new systems I have some input. First off, why not PS3 or 360? Major factor is price point, cost of ownership (Live subs & $10 premium on new titles) lack of software offerings that appeal to my taste (PS3) and, in the 360's case, reliability issues. The tech-superior consoles are also very close both in game selection and gaming experience brought to the table by the PC (which I partake in). Only the PC does the job better, as it always has, in my 10 year playtime with the platform. So that marginalizes and oft times negates any benefit I can reap from ownership.
Another factor is I'm getting older. As a result, I have less free time to spend playing games then I used to. As a married guy with an extended family I'd rather spend time with them than by myself, thumb-jockeying (though I still do from time to time). My wife will gladly play many older games with me and we have a lot of fun. We partner up to take on some newer games as well (Baldurs Gate DA, Champions of Norrath, Burnout, DOA/Volleyball, Smash Bros. Melee and Zelda Four Swords), but our selections are fewer than on the older systems. It got to a point (2-3 years ago) when I picked up a great game, she would try it, find it too difficult and tell me that it was more fun to watch me play it and ask if I'd take over. Now, that isn't right. We fell out of step with console gaming at that point because it no longer served the purpose of a joint activity.
Christmas 2005, we got into the DS and we were back playing together. It was a handheld though and suffered from it's inherent limitations as such. So we didn't game together at home like we used to (with new(er) games) where we put in more time gaming. We mostly played while waiting in lobbies for appointments, in restaurants - before and after our meal and other out-and-about places when it was convenient. It wasn't a perfect surrogate, but it made due, for awhile.
I've said all that to say this; We bought a Wii to play together again and it worked. There are still some fantastic games (IMO there are more than it gets credited for) that I want and get that she isn't into (No More Heroes, MP3, Zelda and RE4), but there is plenty more titles we can play together and have fun doing so, in the game room (even the living room with said extended family - neat bonus), like we used to. Elebits, Tiger Woods, WarioWare, Monkey Ball, Wii Sports/Play and much more to come. For all it's failings, in our position, the Wii makes much more sense than either a PS3 or 360. Though my wife REALLY wants N3 on 360 and I would like to get MGS4, we want Animal Crossing, SSBB, Mario Kart and Harvest Moon MUCH more. We decided it's just not worth getting a second new system at this time. When we get around to them they will be cheaper, possibly more reliable (RRoD), and we'll have more familiarity with the software we want to go after and I'll be able to pick it up used or from members here. The truth is: I'm not the gamer I used to be and at the same time, I am. It's not paradox, it's change. You got to roll with it.
However, my criticism about the the Wii still stands. Family games yes, but imprecise motion controls which was marketed as innovation and don't deliver, no.
I admit, however, that they do deliver for to acertain degree for short party and family games with not too much in-depth gameplay. No more Hereos, Zelda, RE 4 are good games but not of the motion controls which was according to N the justification for a lack of power. If the new controls don't work what's left is a clearly underpowered system compared to its competitors.
Great that you elaborated about your incentives to play the Wii. I'm not interested in short judgement calls, I'm only interested in reasoning.I could have saved you all some time and just said, "I like the Wii and I have my reasons." But, it doesn't have the same effect as the longer explanation.
Why do you keep insisting the controls in Twilight Princess, No More Heroes, and Resident Evil 4 don't work?
I'm very calm.
My experience: People who stress this obvious fact are tempted to suppress dissenting opinions.You're more than entitled to your opinion, everybody is,...
see above. I hope not, I'm 50....but there is a point when opinion turns into childish rant,...
If someone says this he deserved the 'idiot of the year medal.' Note: Instead giving me generously the right to my own opinion you should actually read it. Don't reason gainst something which was never said, otherwise you turn into Don Quixote fighting against windmills.And anyone who thinks that the success of the Wii will be the downfall of the industry really needs to wake up and smell what they're shoveling.
No? They are responsible for the hardware...and as a developer, do you think the sword slashing in Zelda works well? Do you think the tennis game in Wii Sports and the little mini games in Wii Play allow for refined ball control or is the motion sensing dumbed down to the basics becasue the translation of movements onto the screen are imprecise?Yeah, there are plenty of games for the thing with shitty motion detecting, but that isn't Nintendo's fault.
What an insight. Again: Don't play Don Quixote. I think I could explain much better than you why 2008 isn't 1983. It's the extreme opposite.This isn't 1983, the market is too strong now to be toppled by one system with more bad games than good.
If you mean with innovation to use the Wii remote as a flashlight like in Super Paper Mario, or shake it once in awhile with no meaningful gameplay, or open a door by pointing the remote, and many other applications, I wholeheartidly disagree.
I don't know about Zack and Wicki, but I stressed that the motion controls in No MOre Heroes is reduced and dumbed down to such a degree that it truly deserves the label 'tucked add-on.'
The developers were smart enough to ignore the motion controls for essential gameplay and use standard buttons for sword slashing. Thank goodness because No More Heroes is a playful, quirky, well designed game that deserves much better than the Wii motion sensing. Again, it is a great game, but not because of the new controls. It would be a good game on the Cube and on every last generation and present generation system. I'm glad it was released in America.
Absolutely nothing. On the contrary, I stressed the demand for and the necessity of them.Also what is wrong with shorter games?
Even if this were true I certainly dont "foretell the demise of Nintendo." I stressed the economic success and criticized the motion controls which were the main reason to justify technological power of 2001 for a $250 system in 2006.
In the past I stressed that N is in a very difficult situation in the console business, and that the decision for the Wii was a smart business decision. The latter opened the door to survive. However, I thought with many others that the Wii would be a niche console and a very distant third to its competitors. The latter is hardly foretelling the "demise" of Nintendo.
Cheap nonsensensical response. I do, that's why I'm critical of them. I love good games. But that doesn't mean that my brain shuts down when I'm playing.Maybe you could just try to enjoy games for once?
Maybe you could just try to enjoy games for once?Myself, I'm not sure where I stand on the Wii yet. Mario Galaxy was fantastic, but it's the only game of the four I have I can say that about. Paper Mario is ok, but I can't seem to get into it. Wii play hasn't been in since the day I got it. Wii Sports is good, but how much of that can I play? I'm hoping things improve now that it has a huge install base, but for now I see myself buying one game this year, Brawl.
Last edited by lendelin; 02-11-2008 at 11:47 PM.
Cmon, this is besides the point. Why do enthusiastic defenders always point to lions in order to demonstrate the greatness of crocodiles?
I didnt criticize Zelda, I criticized the tucked-on motion play elements of Zelda. Zelda is a great game despite the motion sensing, not because of them. Or do you believe seriously that the motion control elements of the game increased the score even by .1?
I criticized the motion sensing for various genres in comparison to the standard controls, and the result of this revolution in game play is very disappointing. I read the reviews since the Wii release very carefully, and my opinion might be wrong but it is neither arbitrary nor biased. I made a case that the standard control at this point in time delivers by far the most precise and best control.
You mention Tiger Woods. Tiger Woods 07 on the Wii was a sub-par game because of the Wii controls; and since you like review scores, IGN gave the 360 version a 8.5, the PS3 version a 8.3, and the Wii version a 7.0. Quote:The real question is whether or not the Wii remote perfectly simulates a golf club. The answer is no - there are still some issues, which we'll outline, but it works well enough most of the time for us to recommend Tiger Woods,...
The score gaps for the different version of TW 08 were similar: 360 and PS3 8.5, Wii 7.1. So much for the notion that developers will learn to implement the new control scheme. One year wasnt apparently enough to get it straight.
I still remember the bad review of TW 07 in Game Informer, thats why I mentioned the game in my OP.
Quote GI: Lagging well behind the series standards, the Wii remote has a hard time detecting your backswing. Thus, its harder to control. There were even times the game putted for me by accident. (Score 6.5)
If the controls work better like in Hot Shots and Wii Play and Sports, they are dumbed down to the basics because the technology just isnt capable detecting complex movements, and even worse, misinterprets faster movements. The result is limited game play suited for party games, but nothing else.
If I have a frantic boss battle in Devil May Cry, I certainly dont want to play the game in slow motion so the controls work.
The two games on the 360 were hardly great opportunities to show the emphasized new opportunities of the system, they are shovelware we find on every system. Red Steel (in particular as an early title) and SC Legends were prime examples to demonstrate the alleged revolutionary gameplay the Wii design revolves around; and in all seriousness, do you really want to compare the amount of shovelware for both systems in order to make the case for the Wii? I dont think so.Games like Red Steel and Soulcalibur Legends were disappointing because they were bad. Vampire Rain and Pimp My Ride for the Xbox 360 were bad, too. It's not the controller's fault, it's the developer's fault.
In the cases of Red Steel, SC Legends, Table Tennis and many others the inadequate game play isnt the developers fault, it is the limit of the technology. No More Heroes is proof that developers gave up on motion sensing in particular for sword swinging because it would have made an excellent game mediocre at best. The remaining game play elements of the Wii remote in the game are trivial.
As someone who just HAS to play every Metroid game I remember very well the IGN review. It was too enthusiastic, and even sometimes contradictory. However, granted, the motion sensing was an alternative on par with the standard control scheme. I remember very well the DP thread about the game. Some said they liked it, some said they prefer still the standard control, at least it was something different worthwhile to try out. Thats why I evaluated the motion sensing in Metroid Prime in my OP carefully. Still, Metroid Prime was and still remains an exception.Really? According to IGN's review:
Are you serious?In what way is the Wii outdated? It reads optical discs, outputs very nice high-resolution graphics, and outputs Dolby surround sound. Is it as advanced as the Xbox 360 or the PlayStation 3? No,
Isnt that like saying without FoxNews CNN would be still in good shape? The new systems are tailored towards HD, thats the point; and if you say that the Wii outputs nice high resolution graphics dont you admit that they are 1) important, and 2) that 480p compared to 720p/1080p is a very noticeable difference? (Besides many other graphical abilities the Wii just cant deliver)but as Kid Ice pointed out, "graphics plateaued in 1999 with the Dreamcast. ... I haven't seen games with graphics much better than Metroid Prime or Resident Evil 4. ... Without the advent of HD I would actually say there's been NO improvement."
I dont have Burnout Paradise, but just two days ago I compared Metropolis Street Racer to Project Gotham Racing 4 which I started playing last week. Granted, I have my Dreamcast on S-Video on a good STDTV; the STDTV and the HDTV are side by side.Compare Metropolis Street Racer on the Dreamcast to Burnout: Paradise on the PlayStation 3. Yes, of course, there's a difference in graphics, but it's not an amazingly huge difference.
Actually, I was amazed about the difference in graphics. I remembered the graphics of Metropolis Street Racer much better than they actually are.
Still, I like the original Dreamcast racer better because of its music and relative straight forwardness. I admit, the new concept and freshness of the original is still more impressive than the more refined gameplay of the old idea. However, the difference in graphics IS huge.
You know, this might be a valid reason why gamers (like the two of us) evaluate the new motion controls so differently. I admit that I feel like a hopping around idiot using the thing, and I can accept that pulling ropes, pointing the remote as a flashlight, turning doorknobs and so many other little things immerses you and others a bit more in the game. This might be a difference in personalities and human nature.However, flicking my wrist to pull ropes, open bottles, and open doors in Zack & Wiki is cool and fun. When the Wii remote is used in subtle and clever ways like that, I'm more connected to the game than if I were just pressing the "A" or "R" buttons all the time.
That said, I still play old games using standard controllers and they're fun and immersive too, but good Wii games pull me in even a little bit more.
I feel more detached from the game when I do it, in particular if the motion controls dont work accurately even for little game play elements, while you feel less the screen between you and the game. I have no difficulty to admit that I arrogantly belittled such an effect on gamers in my posts.
Still, even with those effects, isnt the new motion control overall disappointing and doesnt come even close to meet expectations?
Ok, Lendelin, you don't like the Wii, or at least it's not the system for you. That's ok, no problem at all. I still don't see why the Wii is supposed to be the demise of the video gaming industry. It's bringing "new" people into gaming, while the "traditional" gamers will still buy a PS3/360 and maybe a Wii as well. So, that means more money goes into the industry, which probably isn't the worst thing that could happen...
It is not a matter of like or dislike, it is a matter of hardware and the limits in gamequality it can produce evaluated on the basis of what it was designed for.
Said the same thing. Read before responding. Or are you like President Schwarzenegger from The Simpsons Movie?: "Im elected to LEAD not to READ."It's bringing "new" people into gaming, while the "traditional" gamers will still buy a PS3/360 and maybe a Wii as well. So, that means more money goes into the industry, which probably isn't the worst thing that could happen...
Of course, you and I can tell the difference between the graphics in Metropolis Street Racer and Project Gotham Racing 4, but to normal people who haven't played video games every day for the last 25 years, they both look good.
To quote one of my previous posts in this thread:
Even if some "hard core" gamers insist that the graphics in, for example, Dead or Alive 4 are a million times better than the graphics in Dead or Alive 2, "casual" or "mainstream" gamers don't notice a difference. I'm serious, they really don't.
Big-budget AAA games look great, but graphics have reached a point where even mediocre games look fine to "casual" or "mainstream" gamers. That's what I meant when I wrote, "In what way is the Wii outdated? It reads optical discs, outputs very nice high-resolution graphics, and outputs Dolby surround sound." To most people, the Wii isn't outdated...they think it's really cool and have no problem with the graphics.
However, to a rich technology fiend who can afford the best big-screen TVs and the latest high-tech gadgets, yes, I guess the Wii would seem a bit outdated.
Last edited by Rob2600; 02-12-2008 at 03:29 PM.
I don't know, it seems like the wii was designed for non-gamers to have fun playing simple easy-to-pick-up games, and to not cost more than a non-gamer would be willing to pay for a quick diversion. Doesn't seem like any of the wii's technical limitations keep it from doing that... Who knows how much more it would have cost to give the wii perfect 1:1 motion detection? And who knows if the wii's target audience (read: not you or me) would give a crap if it did? Maybe the average wii user is just happy waggling a piece of plastic at a TV screen. Maybe it works just as well as it needs to in order to deliver the experience Nintendo was aiming for. How you expected the wii to work and how Nintendo intended it to may be two completely different things.
Last edited by blue lander; 02-12-2008 at 03:33 PM.
I have so far resisted posting in this thread. It's no good for my blood pressure. However, allow me to toss a bit of gasoline on the flames, after which I will scurry away like the tiny woodland creature I am.
At least the Wii does not regularly spontaneously combust, like the XBox 360.
And, unlike the PS3, there are games I actually want to play on the Wii.
That is all.
480p component might be high resolution, especially when compared to an RF or composite connection, but it's not high-definition. Using "high resolution" is misleading, though you probably didn't intend it to be. And anyways, most of the people playing the Wii probably use a composite connection, as the games are usually made to accomodate this (large cursor, not-too-saturated colors, etc).
Let's find out what the people on this board use. Sure it might be biased, but it should be telling. Show of hands, what's your Wii A/V connection?
I'll go first: Component. Though I did use composite for the longest time (I had to get a component/VGA converter).
Anyways, now that that's out of my system, let me say why the control system is so crappy: Money. If Nintendo added another accelerometer (an ADXL330, according to Wikipedia), it might cost them only $.50 (price at 1,000 units: $5.45). That might not sound like much, but how many consoles have they sold? According to nexgenwars, about 20,000,000 as of February 12, 2008. So that's how much in savings? And that's not even counting extra controllers and WiiPlay.
But then again, you'd have to account for the abscence of a sensor bar, the glass window on the controller, and the camera (to capture the LEDs). But if it would have been the same price or cheaper, why did Nintendo use the method that they did? The only remaining possibilities, it seems, are ease-of-use for programmers or a rushed development team.
And Lendelin, are you Anthony1 ressurected? The long posts, the Nintendo criticism, the mobs with torches and pitchforks...
Last edited by CartCollector; 02-12-2008 at 06:48 PM.
The name's Link
And I'm braver than brave
I got a wooden sword from and old man in a cave
I use the 408p component cables. Got them from Hong Kong a week after the Wii launched.
I have my Wii hooked up to a 52 inch TV, so, any little thing I can do to get a 480 system up a notch in resolution helps.
As any gamer with a big TV will tell you, when you start stretching 480 level resolution systems that big, you can get some really ugly looking tearing and bleeding in the resolution ... and it can actually get pretty stressful on the eyes.
"And the book says: 'We may be through with the past, but the past ain't through with us.'"
Scurring away is probably a good idea seeing is how little you added to the conversation.
Yes, the 360 has serious hardware issues that have gone long unchecked. No, it doesn't combust. Xbox 360 hardware failure is very well documented; intellegent, constructive Wii critism isn't. But, please, feel free to add yet another subject on this issue if you'd like.
And, as far as the PS3 game library goes. Yes, it's smallish at this point. But to say you don't want to play Uncharted, Ratchet and Clank, Resistance, flOw, Everyday Shooter, PixelJunk Monsters, Calling All Cars, Super Stardust HD, and Tekken 5 says more about you as a gamer than anything else you posted.
I'm using an S-Video cable on a very nice 27" standard-definition Panasonic TV (model CT-27G14).
I'm not an HDTV expert, but I've been told that some HDTVs have excellent upscaling chips in them and some have cheap, horrible upscaling chips in them. Is this true?
I don't want to play any of those games, either. I guess I'm not a true gamer.
Last edited by Rob2600; 02-12-2008 at 07:29 PM.
Well, it's not about the set's ability to handle upscaling at all.
480i is ACTUALLY only 240 lines of resolution (interlaced) for each image displayed 60 times per second.
480p displays the entire 480 lines of resolution 60 times per second.
On a 19 inch screen, 480i doesn't really have any discernable distortion when viewed by the naked eye ...
but when you take a native 480i image and STRETCH it to a 52 inch (or bigger) display, you're going to see things that weren't previously noticable in the form of bleeding, blurring and crawling distortion.
480p does make a difference, regardless of any built-in smoothing / upscaling features a modern big-screen TV has.
"And the book says: 'We may be through with the past, but the past ain't through with us.'"
Blissful -- You realize the combustion thing was a joke, right? Just checking.
It seems that some folks here resent the Wii a bit. I'm not sure why. Exploding consoles aside, the 360 caters pretty much exclusively to the hardcore. Do we need another machine for that audience?
The Wii seems like a logical step from the DS, another machine that experimented with game input. It doesn't work perfectly -- neither does the DS. (Tried to do any voice recognition on it, lately?) But the pointing functions and the basic tilt mechanism are both robust, and I expect we'll see most polished games use those and avoid extensive waggling. (Let's take Mario Galaxy -- some pointing, some tilting, only a touch of waggle. That suggests that Nintendo knows precisely what the strengths and weaknesses of the console are).
But anyway, I've said too much, and I need to scurry away once again.
Last edited by Wirestone; 02-12-2008 at 08:30 PM.
How does the 360 cater exclusively to the hardcore? I'd be hesitant to hang that tag on any of the 3 consoles because all 3 have downloadable casual games (the 360 even moreso than the others).
lendelin isn't Anthony1, by a good measure, I can actually enjoy reading his posts, while long he doesn't repeat himself over and over, ask the same thing 40 different ways or sacrifice chickens and goats over a Commodore Monitor altar.I think some need to actually read what he has written in this thread and remember to place things within context. Makes for better discussion.
Look how he responded to my post. He isn't argumentative or belittling my position at all. He understood it and thanked me for my input. I wish that would happen more often around here, that's for sure.
This signature is dedicated to all those
cyberpunks who fight against injustice
and corruption every day of their lives
Posting Permissions
As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. Similar agreements apply to other advertising or affiliate programs such as those from eBay, Google, etc.
Copyright © 1991 - Present of Digital Press. All rights reserved.
