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Thread: Can we please remove bingo from the "offical release" RCA Studio II library

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    ServBot (Level 11) swlovinist's Avatar
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    Default Can we please remove bingo from the "offical release" RCA Studio II library

    I know that this has been brought up before, but can we remove this from the library of RCA Studio II? Unless somebody here can prove it with pics with a commercial box and inst, then we should place this one in the Rumor mill. For the 4 people that actually care about the RCA Studio II and accurate game lists, this would be great. Anyone want to prove me wrong with evidence?(not stories )


    EDIT: After reading my original post, I just wanted to add that I know that this cart does indeed exist. The whole point that I am trying to make is that with any game with the existance of just (1) cart, should the DP guide have games that have not been confirmed to be sold to the general public in a separate section?
    Last edited by swlovinist; 03-09-2008 at 03:27 AM.
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    I care and I agree.

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    Myself and several others saw this game, in a retail box, firsthand at PhillyClassic (2, I believe, in 2001). The guy wouldn't part with it. Al Backiel and I'm pretty sure Matt Reichert can confirm this, as we were three people who certainly did care.

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    ServBot (Level 11) swlovinist's Avatar
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    How do we not know that these were final samples and not distributed? If we dont know the actual story behind the game, shouldnt we put this in the "rumor mill?"

    I think if we see something and not know futher information, then at least it needs to be questioned further. Frankly if only two of these surface, it makes me question if it was released. If the game was released, why so few? Why havent others surfaced? If a game is made for a system, even for an obscure one, wouldnt many more be commercially available?
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    Oh I agree that there should be more out there, but who know what happens? I can rattle off several entries for the C64 and Vic20 databases where only one or two known copies are out there, many from "established" publishers. Surely there must be more, and maybe in time they will appear to me, but until then, you just go by what you have and can deduce.

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    I guess that I come from a skeptical historical point of view when it comes to adding a game to an offical game list. If there isnt proof, history, or any offical data to go by, then it shouldnt be offically added. I thought that is why the rumor mill was even in the book, for games such as this. For as many as there is to say that it does exist, I bet you there are as many that question it as an offical release. I am still skeptical. I love you guys, but I guess we can agree to disagree.
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    This game is no more a rumor than the many prototypes that have been confirmed over the years, and the fact that it was witnessed in person by several avid RCA collectors in the exact packaging we'd expect it to be in on retail space further confirms my belief that this is no prototype, either.

    You can be as skeptical as you want. I consider myself the ultimate skeptic and am constantly criticized for leaving games in the rumor mill when there HAS TO BE A PROTOTYPE available, because there was a mock-up photo seen in some classic magazine (as one typical example). Seeing is believing, however, and I'm pretty good at picking out real retro vs. reproductions and even vs. prototypes.

    Just because I've only seen one in my lifetime doesn't make it any less likely a "real" retail release. Seeing just one only means I've seen it the same number of times if not once more than other confirmed releases like Neo-Geo Kizuna Encounter, Atari 2600 Air Raid, or Genesis Blockbuster Tournament II.

    Sorry bro. It's real.

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    I am not questioning whether or not it is real, I am questioning if it was sold to the public. Sure, its real, Sure you saw it. But does that mean it was an OFFICAL release? I mean to me, offical releases are ones that you could actuall go out and buy. Everything else, is well, unreleased, prototypes, and other. I fall in the category if you could not go out and buy it, then it does not count in the offical releases. Sure you saw it, but nobody can confirm it was for sale to the public back in the day. For example of Genesis Blockbuster Tournament II, you could not go out and buy it((in a store), so I would not count that as offical release. I hope that I am making my point. Not to be a stickler on this, but I just think that we need to be careful on what we deem "offical releases" before we put on a list and say "yeah it was released alright". The end of the day we know that it was made, but we do not know if it was available to the public. We do not know if it was sold in stores. This to me, is valid questioning on whether or not it makes the game an offical release.
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    I think it should be listed in the prototype section but not with the regular releases. I think I mostly agree with John on this one. I'm not doubting anyone saw it although this is the first time I've heard anyone say they saw it besides Matt Reichert (that's tempest right?) Who was this mystery person who has it? Who would have a table at a classic video game show and not have any ties to someone who's read about this game on the internet? Weird!

    y-bot

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    The fact that this guy was just an ordinary gamer with an interesting yet unspectacular (besides RCA Bingo, of course) collection made his authenticity double in my mind. He brought his whole RCA collection to the show just for people to play, he wasn't selling anything. I wish I could remember the story as to how he got it, because I'm sure all three of us asked. If this were a story that had some weird insider implication or suggested that the game was a prototype or bootleg it would have raised a red flag. Hopefully one of the other guys can be more specific, my recollection is that he got the last game in a local store closing them out. I'm sure that's not exactly right but it would have to be some description of this sort for me to wipe doubts clear. Of course, three senior collectors could have been simultaneously duped by this so-called ordinary gamer.

    Prototypes rarely if ever (if I could think of one I'd post it right now) have this level of retail synchronicity.

    As for the argument "just because you saw it, how does that make it official?" my counter-argument "how does seeing it NOT make it official?". The fact that you didn't see it, I did, puts us at a bit of an impasse. If Matt or Al were to post here they'd agree that there is NO reason to remove this from the "released" list because as avid collectors this passed every test. Having not seen it, you are left with less information to contradict it.

    Sorry bro, it's real (as in, retail shelves though clearly extremely limited real).

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    ServBot (Level 11) swlovinist's Avatar
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    again nobody knows facts. It is all speculation and stories. We dont have the facts. WE DONT KNOW IT WAS SOLD. It is just suspected. I respect you guys as avid collectors, but without concrete evidence of this game actually being sold, we still dont have FACTS about if it was actual released.

    Sorry bro, I still am going to be a devils advocate on this one(among others)
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    philly classic recap by dan, april 16, 2000

    I'm sure I'll never have a better brag, so here it goes.......

    My small contribution to PhillyClassic was setting up my RCA Studio II was the
    demo cart. I owned (at the time) about half of the Studio II catalog, but
    only brought the demonstration cart to the show. I figured that few people
    had seen the demo cart and the games are no fun to play anyway.

    After talking with hardcore collectors at the show who don't have some of my
    items, I felt pretty fortunate. I was ecstatic after receiving a boxed cart
    that I needed (see previous post).

    .... fast forward to the drive home

    I was passing the "Circle 40" indoor flea on the drive home. I hadn't been
    inside it for a few years, but I had a little time before my wife was
    expecting me home. The first item I spotted was a boxed Odyssey 300. No
    price on it, but it had a real funky smell. Pass.

    I spotted a Ms. PacMan upright. This is the first arcade game I'd seen in a
    flea or thrift store. The price seemed right at $150 until I took a second
    look--$1,500. Guess I missed a zero. I moved on.

    I stopped to poke around in an open box with some portable phone stuff on
    top. I thought I recognized a familiar looking item about the size of a deck
    of cards. It was a Studio II cart. I poked around some more and realized the
    boxed was packed with Studio II carts (all boxed complete) and a console
    plus.......the TV/power box. Got the lot for $10.

    But that's not the brag. I suspected that this might give me a complete
    Studio II collection. When I got home I pulled out the DP guide and checked
    them off: Baseball...needed that; Biorhythem...needed that,
    BlackJack...needed that, Gunfighter/Monship Battle...needed that, Space
    War...needed that, Tennis/Squash...I just got this one this morning, TV
    Schoolhouse...don't need that, Fun with Numbers...don't need that,
    Bingo...don't see that one in the guide. Then it slowly sinks in. I FOUND A
    TITLE NOT LISTED IN THE GUIDE!!! WOHOO! Sure its no proto, but a dream of
    mine none the less.

    Turns out that I still need Speedway/Tag and the diagnostic cart to complete
    my collection. Anyone have these for trade?

    Dan

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    Can any internet detective types track this Dan guy down? I tried the email dan-jen@mindspring.com but it's no good. Lots of things come up from a "dan-jen" google search but nothing that promising. Anyone know the organizers of Phillyclassic 2000 & 2001? Maybe they have a vendor list. Someone must know this guy.

    y-bot

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    Quote Originally Posted by orangest View Post
    Thanks for tracking that down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swlovinist View Post
    again nobody knows facts. It is all speculation and stories. We dont have the facts. WE DONT KNOW IT WAS SOLD. It is just suspected. I respect you guys as avid collectors, but without concrete evidence of this game actually being sold, we still dont have FACTS about if it was actual released.

    Sorry bro, I still am going to be a devils advocate on this one(among others)
    I'm sorry, but I have a problem with the fact that you keep posting these ridiculous threads claiming that something needs to be removed from a list just because you believe it doesn't exist. You wanted Space Hulk in longbox removed and several people have confirmed it exists because they own it and another one was sold on Ebay recently. The reality is, like the second set of Odyssey 1 games, there are some games on obscure systems that can go for years undiscovered. With regard to the Odyssey, Ralph Baer didn't even know the second set of games existed, but now several sets have been confirmed. There just aren't that many RCA Studio II collectors and it is entirely possible that few if any people bought Bingo when it was available at retail. It's not a rumor because it has been seen and handled in person. It's also not a prototype as it was in full retail packaging. Unless you were in charge of distribution at RCA at the time or owned an authorized RCA retailer, I don't think you have any grounds to continually attack the inclusion of the game by the very people that created the DP guide in the first place. Is this really about the fact that you now don't have a "complete" RCA Studio II collection?

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    ServBot (Level 11) swlovinist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    I'm sorry, but I have a problem with the fact that you keep posting these ridiculous threads claiming that something needs to be removed from a list just because you believe it doesn't exist. You wanted Space Hulk in longbox removed and several people have confirmed it exists because they own it and another one was sold on Ebay recently. The reality is, like the second set of Odyssey 1 games, there are some games on obscure systems that can go for years undiscovered. With regard to the Odyssey, Ralph Baer didn't even know the second set of games existed, but now several sets have been confirmed. There just aren't that many RCA Studio II collectors and it is entirely possible that few if any people bought Bingo when it was available at retail. It's not a rumor because it has been seen and handled in person. It's also not a prototype as it was in full retail packaging. Unless you were in charge of distribution at RCA at the time or owned an authorized RCA retailer, I don't think you have any grounds to continually attack the inclusion of the game by the very people that created the DP guide in the first place. Is this really about the fact that you now don't have a "complete" RCA Studio II collection?
    First of all I am a very respected collector who in no means wants to just trash talk. I have been on these boards a long time and have supported what most retro gamers have done here. To let you know that my profession is in the education/counseling background. I am also big into history and details. I do like to point out the obvious though...if we dont have the background information on a title other than finding it, how do we really know if the game was released in game stores? I take official game lists very seriously. An official list to me is games that have been proven to be sold in retail. Anything else should be considered a prototype. If we cannot prove if the game was released and sold, then we do not know. That is the big point I am trying to say. I could give a rats ass about a complete set. I just want to make a point. Others on this board have spoken about this as well. People can make mistakes. I dont think DP are mistake free. If some people did not question things, then the guide wouldn't get better. I guess I am just taken back at how defensive some people have gotten into me questioning this title as a RELEASED TITLE. In the end, we still dont know shit about it. I am sure that it will stay on the OFFICIAL RELEASES list, but again, we still dont know if it was.

    That is my whole big point.

    P.S. the Space Hulk thing was not resolved, other than not a single complete copy being posted. As of now it is not being considered released, with the information we have. Again, it was released after longbox games were done. A perfect example of 1. Yes we have found one. 2. No, we don't have official information about it.

    With that I am going to bed and am going to try to think nice thoughts about the nice people on this forum I have met.
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    Quote Originally Posted by swlovinist View Post
    That is my whole big point.

    P.S. the Space Hulk thing was not resolved, other than not a single complete copy being posted. As of now it is not being considered released, with the information we have. Again, it was released after longbox games were done. A perfect example of 1. Yes we have found one. 2. No, we don't have official information about it.
    I don't know about Bingo, but from the likes of what I read in that recap it sounds like it got made (all be it some insanely low number of copies, but it sounds like it was made).

    **veering off topic**
    In regards to Space Hulk, there have been NO complete ones, only ONE box has been found. No manuals. We find a manual, that proves longbox status. Until then we're under the impression that it was just one of those complete mock/promo boxes that somehow made it out of the store.

    **veering back on topic**
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    I just wanted to chime in and say I think this disagreement is healthy and good for the the Collector's Guide by keeping it fair and honest, even if in the end nothing satisfies everyone.


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    Quote Originally Posted by swlovinist View Post
    First of all I am a very respected collector who in no means wants to just trash talk. I have been on these boards a long time and have supported what most retro gamers have done here. To let you know that my profession is in the education/counseling background. I am also big into history and details. I do like to point out the obvious though...if we dont have the background information on a title other than finding it, how do we really know if the game was released in game stores? I take official game lists very seriously. An official list to me is games that have been proven to be sold in retail. Anything else should be considered a prototype. If we cannot prove if the game was released and sold, then we do not know. That is the big point I am trying to say. I could give a rats ass about a complete set. I just want to make a point. Others on this board have spoken about this as well. People can make mistakes. I dont think DP are mistake free. If some people did not question things, then the guide wouldn't get better. I guess I am just taken back at how defensive some people have gotten into me questioning this title as a RELEASED TITLE. In the end, we still dont know shit about it. I am sure that it will stay on the OFFICIAL RELEASES list, but again, we still dont know if it was.

    That is my whole big point.

    P.S. the Space Hulk thing was not resolved, other than not a single complete copy being posted. As of now it is not being considered released, with the information we have. Again, it was released after longbox games were done. A perfect example of 1. Yes we have found one. 2. No, we don't have official information about it.

    With that I am going to bed and am going to try to think nice thoughts about the nice people on this forum I have met.
    I find it hard to believe that you are a professional educator given your inappropriate use of foul language on this board and I also have no idea what your specific contributions have been to the collecting community other than to keep picking fights with these threads. In any event, unless you actually worked for any of the game companies or distributors in the classic era, you can never prove for sure that any game was released at retail. All we have ever been able to go by is what people recall and what people find. The RCA Bingo game is as valid a release as any of the other titles, it's just rarer in the sense that none of us have it or have seen it on Ebay. That doesn't mean it wasn't released and while you are free to believe what you want, that doesn't make it the truth.

    As for Space Hulk, there have now been two sold on Ebay, including one that was sold literally a few months ago. We will never have "official" information about it other than the fact that it exists. We will never have official information about any game as even the biggest sites like Amazon and others often list games that never come out or contain errors which never get corrected. This whole hobby is based on a certain level of informality and if you don't like it, you can always create your own guide or directory based on whatever official information you claim to have.

    I'm all for debate, but there is a civil and appropriate way to have a discussion and it doesn't involve inflamatory language or repeatedly challenging the very people who have made this amazing community possible.

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    I have no idea what kind of argument you've had about Space Hulk (whatever the hell that is) elsewhere but I don't see where swlovinist was inappropriate here in this thread. I think so far this is a healthy debate. Doesn't each section of the DP Guide have a heading "prototypes and one of a kind" or something like that? If only one copy of a game has ever been seen isn't that where it belongs? Is the new guide going to list Atari 2600 Birthday Mania, Red Sea Crossing and Gamma Attack in the regular US retail release sections? I think Studio II Bingo falls in to the same category as those carts.

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    When Red Sea Crossing was apparently sold mail order only (from what I recall), then it makes the distinction a little harder. It doesn't appear to have been sold at retail. It depends what the qualification is to not be in the homebrew section, and instead in the US or non-US sections. After all, the Atari Club releases (eg. Quadrun, Crazy Climber) were for the most part not sold in shops either, just mail order.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    I find it hard to believe that you are a professional educator given your inappropriate use of foul language on this board and I also have no idea what your specific contributions have been to the collecting community other than to keep picking fights with these threads. In any event, unless you actually worked for any of the game companies or distributors in the classic era, you can never prove for sure that any game was released at retail. All we have ever been able to go by is what people recall and what people find. The RCA Bingo game is as valid a release as any of the other titles, it's just rarer in the sense that none of us have it or have seen it on Ebay. That doesn't mean it wasn't released and while you are free to believe what you want, that doesn't make it the truth.

    As for Space Hulk, there have now been two sold on Ebay, including one that was sold literally a few months ago. We will never have "official" information about it other than the fact that it exists. We will never have official information about any game as even the biggest sites like Amazon and others often list games that never come out or contain errors which never get corrected. This whole hobby is based on a certain level of informality and if you don't like it, you can always create your own guide or directory based on whatever official information you claim to have.

    I'm all for debate, but there is a civil and appropriate way to have a discussion and it doesn't involve inflamatory language or repeatedly challenging the very people who have made this amazing community possible.
    I dont know why you seem to attacking me so much, but I bring up some good points. The fact of the matter is that this game brings up controversy. As a counselor, I encourage others to inquire and question. This is a perfect example. Maybe if you do an educated research of some of my other posts, you see that I dont just come on here and flame. I don't think coming on here and attacking me personally is civil at all.

    oh yeah, sorry if I offended anyone with "rats ass"
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    Quote Originally Posted by y-bot View Post
    Doesn't each section of the DP Guide have a heading "prototypes and one of a kind" or something like that? If only one copy of a game has ever been seen isn't that where it belongs? Is the new guide going to list Atari 2600 Birthday Mania, Red Sea Crossing and Gamma Attack in the regular US retail release sections? I think Studio II Bingo falls in to the same category as those carts.

    y-bot
    My friend... NONE of the games you cite as similar examples were ever observed in bona fide retail packaging. This is a rather huge difference, and precisely what separates RCA Bingo from them.

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    Birthday Mania was confirmed to be sold at least minimally in the midwest, Red Sea Crossing is listed in the Homebrews section and Gamma Attack has not been confirmed as being sold or as a prototype as of yet. Bingo has a box and is rare like Birthday mania and other rare 2600 games with only a few known so it belongs in the US section as Joe stated.
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    I guess my whole big thing that I want to bring up is should we put any game in theoffical release section if we really dont know if it was sold? I just think that any game that exists in the quanity of (1) and has not been confirmed to be released should be in another seperate section. Heck, we could call it a "in question of being officially released" section. I just think that putting games that we dont know were sold to the public in offical releases can possibly skew accurate history. In the end, we dont really know about this one if it was "sold" back in the day. Doesnt that qualify it as a game "in question"? Offical releases to myself are games that were well... were released and sold to the public. Any game in question without actual proof or documentation should be put in another section.

    PS
    I have also added some clarity to my original post on what I was trying to say.
    Last edited by swlovinist; 03-09-2008 at 03:28 AM.
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