How long do CD-based games last?

[G-Boobie]

It isn't going to be a problem with storage, how you clean them, or even humidity... This has to be a problem with the lacquer layer.

I did some research and came up with a load of references that point back to the infamous Philips CD bronzing issue. Go here, here, and here.

So yeah, I'm a douche. Sorry.

Either way, the condition isn't widespread; the condition apparently shows within a decade if it's going to show at all, and 'modern' pressing methods have solved the problem that caused it in the first place(apparently, the lacquer that protects the aluminum data layer wasn't immune to the sulfur in the printed manual, allowing the aluminum to corrode slightly.) You shouldn't worry too much about your current collection: if it hasn't happened to your classic games yet, it probably wont. As far as your games that are already bad .... Sorry guy.

There are isolated incidents with very specific print runs of modern DVD's and Blu-rays, but they all remain unconfirmed. Use Google to check them out: I'm over link quota for the day.

[alec006]

Just depends on how it was made and what material was used,plus what enviroment it is put to. Alfred Diblasi on youtube has a CD-R from 1996 and it still mounts perfectly. According to the companys who make them Regular CDs should last 25-50 years,even 100 according some,but i dont belive 100,but then again i have a Discovision Disc (Early Laserdisc) from 1977 and it still shows no signs of laserrot or anything else yet,same thing with a laserdisc i have from 1988,still no signs of any problems,plays like it was just made,but then again,i have no idea the lifespan of laserdisc.

[Icarus Moonsight]

It isn't going to be a problem with storage, how you clean them, or even humidity... This has to be a problem with the lacquer layer.

I did some research and came up with a load of references that point back to the infamous Philips CD bronzing issue. Go here, here, and here.

So yeah, I'm a douche. Sorry.

Either way, the condition isn't widespread; the condition apparently shows within a decade if it's going to show at all, and 'modern' pressing methods have solved the problem that caused it in the first place(apparently, the lacquer that protects the aluminum data layer wasn't immune to the sulfur in the printed manual, allowing the aluminum to corrode slightly.) You shouldn't worry too much about your current collection: if it hasn't happened to your classic games yet, it probably wont. As far as your games that are already bad .... Sorry guy.

There are isolated incidents with very specific print runs of modern DVD's and Blu-rays, but they all remain unconfirmed. Use Google to check them out: I'm over link quota for the day.

So, when I stored my disks outside their retail cases (as I do) I could have actually prevented this from happening? If that is the case, I'd just like to say to those that told me I was risking damaging my disks for oh so long. All my SCD and Saturn disks work fine (oldest console CDs I own) with no evidence of data layer damage. So, theoretically, where would the cut off be where "modern" pressing started and you have to watch for this on the older stuff?

[tom]

>>>>>How long do CD-based games last?<<<<<

It depends on the game really, some games last longer than others.....Sorry, couldn't help it :-)

[slackur]

It appears that the problem with my collection is not the same exact problem with "cd bronzing", as the discs I've rechecked do not have discoloration, or flecking on any layer, just the pin holes.

I remember researching this before and people using this to "prove" it was not disc rot. Sure, it might not well be, but it has to be something. I have the little pin holes, in some discs entire constellations of them, without any other signs of decay. This goes for games as new as Dreamcast, not just the Turbo CD/Sega Cd.

So, back to square one, I guess...

[skaar]

For only 49.99 I will sell you a miracle.

Through negotiation with the great Woz and his Tibetan monks, we have devised a divine formula that will GUARANTEE all of your CDs will NEVER go bad during your lifetime.

BUY NOW.

* also for the record: I've been burning CDRs since before they were sold at retail and I've never had a single disc or brand go bad that wasn't mistreated. I have a burned music CD from an MC Hammer tour promo guy and it still *shudder* plays great

The closest I've come is the $0.02 CDRs I used to get from some wholesaler in vancouver for disposable CDs (OS install discs/etc) and those had a tendency to flake before they came out of the package.

[Bratwurst]

I have two audio CDs purchased new from the late eighties that suffered the same fate as some of slackur's games. One practically looks like a star field when you hold it up to the light and is unplayable, the other just has a few pinpricks and surprisingly, still plays without a skip. Neither of these discs were abused, scratched or stored improperly.

G-Boobie's last post pretty much summarizes the rhyme & reason of this issue. It happens.

[LucidDefender]

The only CD-R media worth using for longevity is either the discontinued Kodak Gold CD-Rs(Mitsubishi Chemical), the original Verbatim Data-life Plus discs, or Taiyo Yudens.

For DVDs, Taiyo Yudens are your best bet for single-layer. Verbatims are too inconsistent from batch to batch, and use different media at times. For Dual-layer, Verbatim made in Singapore is the only media worth your money.

[tom]

I wonder if the Golden Record still works? It's over 30 years in space onboard Voyager.

[slackur]

Just curious, but is anyone here in game/media retail that can confirm my experience with occasional pinholes in otherwise normal media? Not refering to copied discs, or printed discs with flaky labels. I'm refering to normally pressed media that has developed tiny visible pinholes, often only one or two (they usually have to be examined closely.) I'm coming up on a decade of working in media retail, and my collection is not the only place I've witnessed this phenomenon. It is perhaps less than 1%, but even at that I've seen hundreds of these discs now.

Am I going crazy, staring a hole through these things, or can anyone else confirm this?

I was in a classic gaming store in Denver, CO about two months ago, and out of thirty or so CD games for various systems, I had to put back six of them because of this. I had to go to their back room to find a good light, because their store lighting was rather dim. Six games with no scratches or other damage did have these pinholes, and the sales guys were shocked, as they were very careful of the condition of the product they took in. One of the discs was a new sealed saturn game, and they let me open it before purchase after showing them the other five. It was the same way. The store guys were quite surprised, but confirmed what I found.

Anyone else? Anyone? Bueller?

*Twilight Zone music begins*

[CrimsonNugget]

So I was reading slackur's post thinking, "Heh, pin holes. Gimme a break." I did get really curious though. I brought like 3 legit Saturn games with me to school and had them next to me. So a couple of minutes ago I held Tomb Raider up to the light. Fine... Nothing unusual... Then I held up NiGHTS...

...
...
...

AAAAAAAH! PIN HOLES ALL OVER!

I mean, the game has been playing great. I emulate it with SSF because I don't have my Saturn here with me. It's disturbing that one of my favorite original Saturn games has the dreaded "pinholes" all over it. I don't really keep my games stored in vacuum-sealed cryogenic pods or anything like that, they have normal wear and tear. However, I do not treat my games badly.

Another interesting fact: I also live in PA, though I live in the southeast end. It is REALLY ODD that 1 of the 3 legit games I just happened to bring with me shows slackur's exact problem.

[G-Boobie]

I wonder if the Golden Record still works? It's over 30 years in space onboard Voyager.

No oxygen = no oxidization = probably OK.

[Icarus Moonsight]

The Star Field Virus strikes again! *Dun dun dun*

I can confirm a personal encounter with the condition now. Bought two SCD games from a thrift this weekend with pinholes. I suspected topside damage to be the culprit but, after inspection only one of the disks showed evidence of scratches on the top side (Wolfchild) the other (Final Fight CD) looked fine. Yet, the pinholes are there. The second look at Wolfchild showed that there were not just pinholes but also lines and swirls where light penetrated. I thought maybe the pinholes happened to both disks and Wolfchild just had extra damage. I'm sure Wolfchild will have issues as far as play but, I'm hoping the best for Final Fight since some say that sometimes they play just fine with the pinholes.

[Poofta!]

you guys should use CDCheck program to check integrity of your cds. sometimes some 'holes' or evil looking scratched will still be ok as far as data integrity is concerned. although it probably means you should backup asap.

[ice1605]

No oxygen = no oxidization = probably OK.

Gold will not oxidize, even on Earth. Gold is near the bottom of the activity series, and only oxidizes over very long periods of time, if at all (Gold and Silver are the only metals other than occasionally Copper that can be found pure in the crust). So, a gold record will still be fine here after 30 years, too.

[Cornelius]

So, do these discs with pinholes work, or not?

[LucidDefender]

So, do these discs with pinholes work, or not?

CDs have ECC*, so small errors can be corrected. As long as there's enough ECC data to correct the errors, the discs with the pinholes will be fine, unless it gets worse.


*Certain methods/modes of writing CDs do not contain ECC data, such as VCDs, which is why they may contain, for example, 800MB of data, vs 700MB.

[G-Boobie]

Gold will not oxidize, even on Earth. Gold is near the bottom of the activity series, and only oxidizes over very long periods of time, if at all (Gold and Silver are the only metals other than occasionally Copper that can be found pure in the crust). So, a gold record will still be fine here after 30 years, too.

Yeah, good call. Sorry; I just read my post you quoted and kicked myself in the ass. I can't seem to win in this thread...

What I meant was since there's no atmosphere or anything else in space that could be either reductive or oxidative, that record is A-OK and nevermind what it's made of.

[MrSparkle]

I can only assume that the CD still works, which makes it 14 years old, which means you'd better play it quick. You've only got a few months left to enjoy it.

The fact is, optical media is pretty fucking stable: the data is encoded into a non-degradable, crystalline, polymer surface. We're not talking punch cards or magnetized tape, here. We're talking high grade plastics.

Don't scratch your media, don't bake your media, don't submerge your media, and you'll be fine.

i mistakenly dropped my snatcher proto into a vat of boiling oil so i tried to bake and then scratch it off, i can has help?? </sarcasm> lol

[rarebucky]

I have a different problem with some of my US Saturn games that I don't believe has been mentioned here. Some of them over the years have gotten "cloudy" on the playing side and it is kind of rough to the touch. All of the work fine, save for one (Herc's Adventures) which has some pixellated menus. The discs otherwise are mint and were all bought new by me and stored in their cases. Is anyone familiar with this? It feels like one of the layers has separated slightly from the disc. If you need pics I can take but it basically looks like cloudy splotches.