Game Developer's Response To Pirates [Slashdot]

[DP ServBot]

cliffski writes "A few days ago, indie PC games developer Positech publicly called for people pirating their games to explain why, in an open and honest attempt to see what the causes of gaming piracy were. Hundreds of blog posts, hundreds more emails and several server-reboots later, the developer's reply is up on their site. The pirates had a lot to say, on subjects such as price, DRM, demos and the overall quality of PC games, and Positech owner Cliffski explains how this developer at least will be changing their approach to selling PC games as a result. Is this the start of a change for the wider industry? Or is this the only developer actively listening to the pirates point of view?"
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[Graham Mitchell]

If you can't beat 'em, appease 'em, eh?

That was rather interesting. I didn't think DRM was such a big deal with most people. I guess it does piss me off with iTunes tracks, but that just means I purchase .mp3s elsewhere. Or I go the extra mile to get rid of it. But I don't decide to pirate music (which I probably should given my current financial state )

[Clownzilla]

Well, I firmly believe that fewer pirates would exist (there will always be some) if the gaming and music companies would actually treat the customer with respect and create a balance of quality and value with the customer with a decent profit for the company. I think most people understand that gaming companies are around to make money for their shareholders. The problem is that the same gaming companies still have this belief that they will rake in HUGE profits by telling consumer what they want and how much they will pay for it. Very rarely do they listen to the consumer. Why don't I have Duck Hunt on the VC yet? Why can't my XBOX 360 play ALL my Xbox games? Why did you take out the Emotion chip from my PS3 Sony? Yeah, profits and the bottom line are important but who makes those profits for you? Invest in the happiness of your customers and those same customers will return the favor.

[skaar]

People will use any excuse to justify and rationalize something they know is wrong.

Game piracy, anime and movie downloads, mp3s, roms... the arguments for each are almost all the same. People don't want to fork out the cash if they don't have to and will use any excuse - not for others, but for themselves - for doing so.

Each have their own legitimate uses (well maybe not the piracy - I would download movies digitally I'd already bought on VHS to save having to rip them myself, anime fansubs of things before it was known if they'd ever see a US release, and roms to play games I'd never be able to afford or just wanted to play on a different system. Everyone's got their own reasons.

I still think people are just cheap assholes though

(also, respect needs to be mutual. Look at how much respect people have for others these days)

[Clownzilla]

Many people would agree that there are too many cheapass people out there. On the contrary, if many of those cheapass people respected the companies they were pirating from then they would be inclined to purchase their product. The gaming and music companies don't respect the customers so why should the customers respect them? It's a give and take relationship that BOTH SIDES need to simultaneously respect.

[dao2]

If you can't beat 'em, appease 'em, eh?

That was rather interesting. I didn't think DRM was such a big deal with most people. I guess it does piss me off with iTunes tracks, but that just means I purchase .mp3s elsewhere. Or I go the extra mile to get rid of it. But I don't decide to pirate music (which I probably should given my current financial state )

Shit like securerom is a big deal Hell I collect games but prefer to just pirate a game with securerom and burn it on a dvd with a nice label then fall into crap like that. I don't get why developers like it either, it's the worst copyright protection ever invented.

It's going to be cracked, it's not like its starforce level of copyright protection or anything. What it does on the other hand, is piss off the people that actually bought the game. That's right people who pirated the game have it like 10x fuckign easier then the bs who have to buy it.

Go fuckign figure.

[madman77]

Many people would agree that there are too many cheapass people out there. On the contrary, if many of those cheapass people respected the companies they were pirating from then they would be inclined to purchase their product. The gaming and music companies don't respect the customers so why should the customers respect them? It's a give and take relationship that BOTH SIDES need to simultaneously respect.

Wow that is one of the worst arguments for piracy ever. If you don't like a company's product, it's pretty simply, DON'T BUY IT. If you are going to bother to pirate something and then play it (or listen to it, whatever) then you should buy it. If it wasn't worth playing, why pirate it?

[Clownzilla]

Wow that is one of the worst arguments for piracy ever. If you don't like a company's product, it's pretty simply, DON'T BUY IT. If you are going to bother to pirate something and then play it (or listen to it, whatever) then you should buy it. If it wasn't worth playing, why pirate it?

The issue is NOT if piracy is right or wrong but is WHY people pirate. People can argue for or against piracy all day long but won't get any closer to a resolution until companies realize why people pirate. Piracy is an act of disrespect much like any illegal act but instead of making the consumer happier they criminalize the consumer more and more until they actually become a criminal. There is always going to be pirates no matter what, but there is a good reason why piracy is becoming more prevalent.

[Push Upstairs]

I understand the use of DRM, I just can't understand why you want to treat a *paying* customer like a criminal. How can a customer respect a company that puts DRM junk on a installation disc that can screw up functionality of your computer.

I've not bought PC Games in recent years so I've never had to deal with the likes of Starforce, etc.. but I know I refused to purchase music CD's that had that copy protection shit on it.

[heybtbm]

People will use any excuse to justify and rationalize something they know is wrong.

As evidenced by this sad thread a few months ago. It really reveals the character of several DP regulars...

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/show....php?p=1307275

Lol...you're right. People will "use any excuse to justify and rationalize something they know is wrong"...

I'd probably hang onto it myself, but wouldn't give it away/sell it. Use it in another room or something. I have this happen all the time with hardware vendors... an extra laptop comes back or something. I almost aways call them and ship it back - but on a 360 I had already had warranty issues with... I dunno. The only time I've kept something was a spare LCD monitor, but I had also sent the thing back 4 times for repairs.

The "extra" one died a year later anyway

[skaar]

Hey, I've done a shady thing or two myself over the years - I'll admit it. The free 360 in the mail thing would probably fall into my shady zone still. But that being said... I'd wrestle with it and probably end up sending it back. It would bug me lots. The monitor's the most expensive thing I ever kept. I had two extra servers show up last week that went back

See there's a perfect example. The dollar value is setting the level of wrongness. I do it too. Most all my consoles are modded, and I've fallen into a habit of downloading something and burning it and keeping a sealed copy I'll buy later. Grey area, but I've rationalized it away.

Here's mine:

"At least I buy most of my stuff."

[Clownzilla]

As evidenced by this sad thread a few months ago. It really reveals the character of several DP regulars...

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/show....php?p=1307275

Lol...you're right. People will "use any excuse to justify and rationalize something they know is wrong"...

Again, this has nothing to do with piracy being right or wrong. There are many people like myself that think piracy is wrong but understand that there is a reason behind all of it and don't defend companies when they whine about it. Yes, people try justify their wrong actions all the time but in this case the wrong action is in the most part related to the years of neglect and abuse from the gaming and music industry. If these same companies stood up years ago and created some sort of bond with their customers then piracy would not be a problem. What did the companies do instead of create this bond? They refused to keep the customer happy after the sale! Why do I have a hard time getting Wii fit? Why is it so hard to keep my XBOX 360 running? Why does Sony refuse me the ability to play ALL my PS2 games on my PS3 when it is technically possible? Why can't I legally copy a Lucas Arts game from the late 80"s? Listen, I don't pirate games but I can absolutely understand why people do when companies treat their customers like crap. Some might say "If you don't like it don't buy it". All I can say to this is that makes perfect sense in a PERFECT world. The harsh reality is that many gamers and music lovers enjoy the product that they are stealing. They don't give a crap about the company though because the company doesn't give a crap about them. If anybody here is a pirate (I am not) think back to the first game or song you stole. Why did you steal it? Most likely the reason was because it was free and you wanted it. Now, think about the attitude you had when you stole it? You probably did not have ANY emotional connection with the company you were stealing from. The company did not care about you one way or another so why would a person think twice about stealing from them if they already have a predisposition to pirate stuff?

[The 1 2 P]

Wrong post.

[maxlords]

I find this whole idea interesting. I HATE DRM though. I hate Half-Life 2 with a burning passion partly because I didn't enjoy the game much but even more so because I can't play it without an internet connection. How dumb is that? Or games that once installed...require the disc in. I don't like to leave em in cause I only have one drive. It's an inconvenience. And it makes me buy fewer PC games. I'm more liable to pirate PC games than any other due mainly to the extremely high prices and EXTREMELY low quality of most all of them out there too. I'll pirate it just to try it. Honestly...if I LIKE it...I'll go find a copy...but my faith in liking it is SO low that I generally don't anyway. The last PC game I liked was FEAR. Seriously...that's it. How long ago did that come out?

As for piracy in general...I mostly pirate music, movies, and TV. I DL movies, watch em..if I really like em I go buy em if I can find em cheap. $20+ is too much to pay for a movie. $5 is too much to rent a movie with the sheer volume of stuff out there. My local mini-mart rents movies...and the guy lets me rent anything I want...FREE of charge mind you....cause I price his games. I can literally see any movie on DVD for free...he has several hundred and gets all the new stuff. And I still would rather pirate em...it's a convenience thing. I don't want to be bothered to bring it back and it's not worth paying even a buck to see it. I'll BUY it so I can watch it whenever....if I like it.

Same goes for music. Course I DL a lot of game music and we all know how ridiculously expensive that is. I buy a disc here or there when I can afford to...but half of the ones you can buy are bootlegs anyway. I doubt my DLing game music has an impact on the industry. And regular music...it's not worth the price people charge. I'll pay up to $5 for an album...that's about it. I don't buy any music new (except for 1 or 2 bands). I buy it at yard sales for a quarter here and a buck there. I'm already completely ignoring ALL of the music industry's profits.

If I DL stuff to listen to, who cares? If I couldn't DL it...I wouldn't listen...simple as that. I never used to and I'd go back to settling for what I have kicking around. Same for movies. If I couldn't DL em...I'd just not watch em at all. Honestly. Same for TV shows...I'll DL whole seasons to watch instead of buying the painfully overpriced DVDs. Some stuff...I'll buy. I recently bought Stargate SG-1 The Series on DVD. The whole set...$150 on eBay. Half the price it is retail here...the makers didn't make a dime off it from my transaction...so what would it have mattered if I bootlegged it? I bought it because I liked it and wanted the DVDs tho. I have a lot of DVDs...less than 1 in 10 out of close to 1500 was bought from a retail store. My music....I have about 500 CDs and less than 50 were bought retail. Tell me where it matters at that point if I DL anything.

Anyway, that's how I see it. I don't pirate games really because I'm a game collector and I like having the packaging and art and such. I could...I just can't be bothered. I get most of my games free anymore anyway (yard sale profits...over 1K this year so far!), so why pirate?
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[G-Boobie]

Piracy is a problem, absolutely, and people who acquire all their media through torrents and P2P can fuck right off and die. You are part of the problem. Seriously. Fuck you.

On the other hand, I don't know anyone at all who doesn't have SOME illicit files on their hard drive. That includes me, obviously; my PSP is hacked all to hell and acts as a portable backup of my retro games collection.

Here's the difference though: I buy new games, music, and the occasional movie. I don't steal music or movies; I treat the download as a 'demo', and buy it if I like it. Not in some hypothetical future either; I buy it within a couple days. I don't pirate new games as a rule either. If we want a constant stream of new media then we need to financially support the sources. End of story.

Of course, here we encounter an interesting phenomenon. A coworker of mine is playing Iron Man for the PC right now. The only reason he's playing it at all is because he downloaded it for free. He never would have bought it. This happens a lot I'd bet.

In spite of my puritanical ravings, I think the state of copyrights and intellectual property laws is gonna come under serious fire in the next decade. In the age of universal high speed internet, good luck controlling your infinitely copyable product for more than one second after the first master is burned/posted. If companies want to remain profitable, they're going to have to rethink distribution methods and pricing.

[monkeychemist]

I find it funny that consumers/regular people are called pirates. They are a minority in the grand scheme of world populations and so, they copy a thing or two (or hundreds) for their own enjoyment or to try it out before buying.

Corporations and organizations like Publix, RIAA, Enron, etc... rape people EVERY DAY. They come down with ridiculous marketing schemes, terrible customer service and hidden fees. They rob middle to poor people to make a top few very rich. Organizations like RIAA will target a college student and fine them hundreds of thousands of dollars and F#$% up their lives in their quest against "justice". Are the artists that created the music getting any of it? NOPE. So in my opinion, it's THEM who are pirates, not the common Joe who takes back what was stolen from them in one way or another.

So F#$% them, I feel no sympathy what so ever in people sticking it to those dirty, horrible, EVIL people. That's why to refer back to a few threads: I don't feel bad about returning opened goods to a national store for no reason (or break something to return it for full refund) and I think that guy should keep that 360 and then sell it on eBay (or better yet GameGavel).

[monkeychemist]

Piracy is a problem, absolutely, and people who acquire all their media through torrents and P2P can fuck right off and die. You are part of the problem. Seriously. Fuck you.

What problem? Are "pirates" keeping people from living their lives or affecting anyone in any substantial monetary way? nope. Piracy of software, music, games only affects the bottom line of the executives' profit sharing.

In fact, I believe the opposite. I think media piracy is GOOD for the world. If people didn't constantly challenge those companies than nothing would evolve. It is that challenge that forces companies to shell out some cash to develop some counter measures. In turn the pirates have to also get better at what they do. This simple exchange make the technology and industry knowledge evolve. How can that be bad?

I also think hackers are great (real hackers, not those assholes who send viruses or do DOS attacks). Hackers have a knowledge and drive that is very rare; they are geniuses in their own right. They curiosity drives them to challenge the software defenses of companies. Again, they have to have some counter-measures and the whole experience makes both parties more intelligent and knowledgeable.

[Garry Silljo]

In fact, I believe the opposite. I think media piracy is GOOD for the world. If people didn't constantly challenge those companies than nothing would evolve. It is that challenge that forces companies to shell out some cash to develop some counter measures. In turn the pirates have to also get better at what they do. This simple exchange make the technology and industry knowledge evolve. How can that be bad?

Stealing is great because it forces people to spend more on security? Are you freaking kidding? Worst rationalization of theft EVER. Also security is good because it forces thieves to become better thieves? Thieves are a bad thing, and we don't need them getting better at something that is bad.

You're nuts.

[monkeychemist]

Stealing is great because it forces people to spend more on security? Are you freaking kidding? Worst rationalization of theft EVER. Also security is good because it forces thieves to become better thieves? Thieves are a bad thing, and we don't need them getting better at something that is bad.

You're nuts.

...and you dont think companies like Exxon-Mobil are theives? They rake in ridiculous profits while making people suffer and have to cut back on basic necessities like food (oh yea, the oil barrel dropped like $30-40 cheaper, I didn't see a big drop at the gas station. How about Verizon or Bright House networks who charge $200/ month for cable/phone/internet are theives? When in Europe the company Free does the same thing for $50/month. I'm sorry but everyone is stealing in some way. I just root for the common man versus a big profiteering company.

but, yea, I'm nuts...

PS: you obviously missed my point. I was saying the back and forth between security and pirates forces evolution in technology. So yea, that is good.

[Mangar]

Full Disclosure: As I've mentioned here in other threads, I was one of the founders of Deviance ISO, and a led/was a part of a bunch of other warez/pirate groups from 1984 to roughly ummm 2001

The reasons for piracy are simple. When the average person makes roughly 80-100$ per day take home pay, and a video game costs 60$ to purchase - Piracy will exist. Same with movies. While a DVD does cost considerably less, it also provides less actual enjoyment time. 15-20$ for an hour and half roughly. It's basic economics. Trying to delve deeper into what is really a very simple answer is silly. For the actual groups themselves at the highest echelon - It's different. However since that only constitutes roughly 1% of the people worldwide who pirate(Less actually) I'll not go into it.

I'll never understand why people attempt to pontificate about the morality of piracy. I can say almost without exception that everyone in this thread does something technically "illegal." From stealing music, to playing roms without owning the original arcade machine. Yes, yes.. I've heard the rebuttal arguments before "The game is 25 years old! It don't hurt anyone." Yeah, but you are still a dirty little pirate. Only in your mind is your personal illegal act not as bad as mine. You can justify it yourself however you want, but don't sit on your high horse preaching about it. As the adage goes - Those in glass houses....

If anything, you should all be happy that pirates exist, since without them - Your games would probably cost significantly more then they do now. I'd go as far as to say that the relatively low level of piracy on the PS3 is one of the primary reasons why they CAN charge 60$ for a new game over 50$. Once Blue-Ray piracy becomes easier, and something feasible for the average Joe on the Street to handle - Watch that initial price drop.