Why Modern Sonic Games Will Always Suck By OMG Nintendo

[The 1 2 P]

Here it is: http://www.omgnintendo.com/article/1...l-always-suck/

Now I know Sega Ages is going to come in here and try to lay the smack down on everyone who agrees with this story. But just keep one thing in mind: don't shoot the messenger--he's bullet proof

[TheRealist50]

The only reason I liked Sonic Unleashed is because they set the bar so damn low with their previous Sonic games that when a half decent game comes out, you actually enjoy it.

[Berserker]

The author apparently draws their conclusion from this quote:

"I asked one of the developers at TGS, you know I was like, come on everybody just wants Sonic running, like whats up with the werehog? And he was like, well, heres the deal... he runs at this miles per hour, kilometers per hour, and he laid out all of the statistics on how fast this hedgehog goes, and he was like In order to make a game where Sonic is running and everybody enjoys the whole thing we'd have to design this many miles of level, and it was some ungodly number. And he's like and that would be like maybe a three hour game and I was like wow, well that kinda stinks and he's like yeah, so we gotta do this other stuff."

"Always" in its usage here is a bit subjective, so we should clarify the assumption it's operating on. So modern Sonic games will always be constrained in this way, as long as their levels are always designed in the way that they are now, completely ignoring any progress and innovation that develops and eventually becomes more widely known and accepted at any time in the future.

Well, that's a dubious assumption at best, and to anyone with some reasonable perception of game development history, with regards to how new techniques are discovered and over time eventually accepted and integrated into mainstream titles, seems like a pretty unlikely way that things will go.

With all the advancements that have been made in the area of procedural content generation, just to name one example, being able to create a game with "this many miles of level", whatever that "ungodly number" may actually be, seems not only possible, but probable.

[TonyTheTiger]

I can sympathize with the problem. If Sonic runs at what looks to be 50mph on screen and the game is 2 hours long then that's 100 miles worth of "level" that has to be there. And if you want a variety like in the old Sonic games you'd have to split those 100 miles into short 4 or 5 minute long stages in order to get that variety. Now, assuming they're selling this game at the standard $50-$60 price, I can understand that they want to avoid the cries of "I paid full price for an unfinished game that can be completed in one sitting!" And you know the general press will jump on that conclusion with claims that it should have been a budget title.

That being said, creative level design and cautious repetition of gimmicks like those loopdeeloops and springs might make for a good solution.

[Rob2600]

Why Modern Sonic Games Will Always Suck

Putting nostalgia aside, could it be because the Sonic the Hedgehog games weren't very deep or innovative to begin with? Sega is trying to build a better Sonic game, but it's building on top of a weak foundation.

[Push Upstairs]

I don't know if the word "better" should be used with Sonic turning into a "werehog" and beating guys up, or wielding a talking sword.

[G-Boobie]

Putting nostalgia aside, could it be because the Sonic the Hedgehog games weren't very deep or innovative to begin with? Sega is trying to build a better Sonic game, but it's building on top of a weak foundation.

I don't think that's necessarily true, Rob, but I can see where you're coming from.

The real problem the way I see it is three-fold.

1) Mario has evolved quite a bit from his NES days, while retaining the same essential gameplay and 'feeling'. Even in Galaxy, you're running, jumping, collecting coins... you get the gist. I'd argue that even the often reviled Sunshine was actually pretty good. It seems that the Mario team takes the time to make sure that the basics are there and work the way they should before messing with the Mario formula. Sonic games, on the other hand, are usuallty cobbled together science experiments. They have poorly implemented RPG elements, Dynasty Warriors-esque werehog combat, terrible and unresponsive 3D targeting and jumping mechanics, and an anthropomorphic blue rodent making out with human girls. Maybe the next Sonic game should get the actual running game play down pat before venturing into deviant lifestyles and fetch quests.

2) There is a rabid Sonic fanbase that buys any goddamn thing with Sonic and his shitty friends in it. Why take the time and spend the money to make a genuinely great Sonic game when you can make the same money for half the budget and effort? Shadow the Hedgehog for example.

3) Sonic Team genuinely sucks now. There was a time when they could do no wrong... But that time has passed, ladies and gentlemen. Maybe it's time they let a third party take a stab at it.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Bring it back to Sonic v Eggman and his mechanized hoard army damn it!

Bonus points for a openning clip in a future title where all the peripheral characters are executed by pistol to the back of the brain whilst kneeling, bound and blindfolded, one by one. Bwahahahahaha! YES! Even Tails! DIE SIDEKICK DIE!!!

On a more sober tone... Can the speed that Sonic represents be presented in a high quality caliber in 3D? They may want to step down to a 2.5D with 3D elements such as they did in Crush on PSP and N took Mario in Galaxy and Super Paper Mario. Them are great platformers (with some genre blending overlooked) and recent too. Form follows function and thereby viability. Possibly take a stab at a download title to experiment with, to keep the risk to a minimum. Maybe a full on 3D Sonic of a proportion worthy of his used to be trademark agility and pure velocity is just not possible... yet. Yes, the Dreamcast Sonics did it well... but that was a whole other Sega. Many of the very fast going parts in those games were not true 3D either so I think that point survives unscathed.

Which brings me to the next. Quite simply, obviously to most, the Sega talent pool is merely ankle deep these days. Outsourcing to Western Devs? Really now!? That's not Sega anymore than I am an Alpacka. It's sad really.

2D Sonic games had a very distict vibe and gameplay that was unique. Most 3D Sonics do not. Plain and simple. Time to retire the hedgehog shaped cookie cutter guys, ok!?

I'm going to go take my frustrations out on a Sonic Labyrinth cart...

[G-Boobie]

That's not Sega anymore than I am an Alpacka. It's sad really.

I, for one, am terribly glad you aren't an Alpacka, Master Moonsight.

Stomp on that Sonic Labyrinth once for me. That game sucks.

[Zap!]

I'm probably the only one, but I always thought every Sonic game was over-rated. I much prefered Alex Kidd as a mascot. In fact, I prefer Enchanted Castle over Sonic 1.

[poloplayr]

I'm probably the only one, but I always thought every Sonic game was over-rated. I much prefered Alex Kidd as a mascot. In fact, I prefer Enchanted Castle over Sonic 1.

Amen, brother!

I have never ever found Sonic games fun to play. Such a waste of a game that it moves too fast and you sit and haphazardly sit and push the jump button like a retard.

[Nebagram]

Amen, brother!

I have never ever found Sonic games fun to play. Such a waste of a game that it moves too fast and you sit and haphazardly sit and push the jump button like a retard.

Umm... not played many Sonic games have you? Not played them well, at any rate. Part of 2D Sonic's appeal is getting the timing of each jump right, stringing together the attacks and getting the time for each level down as far as possible. Hence why the first levels of Sonic 1 and 2 are so popular to this day- regularly getting sub-30s on either makes you a gaming demigod.

And frankly, this is the direction Sega should be taking with new Sonic games. Not sprawling epics with too much emphasis on story and combat, but down the 'blast through as short as possible/time attack' route. So what if it'll only be a few hours long? So was Portal.

For me, the ideal Sonic game would be a bit like NSMB, or to some extent Street Fighter IV. Add in those upmarket graphics everyone loves these days but bring the gameplay right back to the core. Add in twiddly bits if necessary, but keep the gameplay at the core.

I also want to see it released through download services, a la Mega Man 9. Possibly expand it later with Tailsand Knuckles sections- in much the same way Sonic 3 & Knuckles did.

It's just a shame no one from Sega browses this forum. Or ANY forum, for that matter...

[SegaAges]

And the Sonic hate has begun.

I do not believe all this hate is just about Sonic. No. I can sit here and tell you about how crappy many other mascots have gotten over the years, even how some could not withstand the test of time WHETHER THE GAMES WERE GOOD OR NOT.

You know, I can pull it back up, some somebody actually said that the MegaMan X series was blasphemy. Some of the newer megaman games, I was informed, were the worst in the series (I think it was 7 and 8, I don't remember). Does that mean I should write off MegaMan for trying to come up with new ideas? Maybe I should do what all the Sega haters do and just write off Capcom for bringing out such a crappy version of MegaMan.

See, when it hits close to home, it gets real. When you say Sonic Team sucks because they are keeping Sonic fresh, then you need to stop fooling yourself. There will not be another Sonic 2. Stop comparing every single Sonic Team game, or better yet, every Sonic game, to Sonic 2.

I would rather play a fresh spin on the genre then play the same reprtitive stuff I have seen over and over again.

Shall I quote the person who said that Sonic was not deep, but then go back to so many people loving a genre that has been the same since it's release on the NES? If you want Sonic 2.5, go get a rom hack and play it, because this is not Sonic 2.5, and that game will never get released.

Sonic on the Wii? Really? A dumbed down version of God of War, but with Sonic will be best played on a Wii? Get the hell out of here with that noise.

What do I like about Sonic? Sonic has changed so much through-out the years. Sonic has surpassed multiple genres, similar to another really famous character some of you all know and love.

Are you a game programmer? Oh wait, you are not a game programmer, then who are you to say that it is wrong to not program over 100 miles worth of level and put in something fresh for the Sonic genre? Do you know what it takes to design that much stuff? It is not lazyness, but the ability to know and realize that gamers now expect a game to be, what, 3+ hours to beat it? Games that take 3 hours to beat aren't they normally seen as super short? Even with the 100 miles of game they could have put in, they said it would still be a 3 hour game, so then you guys would have jumped all over it saying, "Well, it was fun, but it was way too short. They should have added something else in to give it some freshness".

So far of the people that I have read that have played it here at DP is pretty much generally that the game is super fun.

Would you expect anything else from a place called OMG Nintendo? It would be like me being surprised that there is Wii hate on a website called W00T Playstation.

The best thing about Sonic is the basis of the games: run really fast while in a platformer. That is the basis, which leaves the doors wide open to try new things.

I could sit here and explain how all of your favorite Nintendo characters are not doing anything and have not been since the N64, but I won't to be nice.

The game with the sword, it looks cool. You just hate it because you are expecting Sonic 2 and getting something else with our boy in blue in it.

You say the werehog stages are repetitive. Would you like me to describe why a buttload on Nintendo franchises suck because they are way too repetitive? How about Sony? How about Microsoft?

Also, where the hell in this article does this guy say anything about personally playing it? Is he that much of a fanboy to where he will completely knock a game without playing it? I will almost never knock a game without playing it. Look at the reviews for Mortal Kombat 2 on Game Gear from way back when. It got horrible reviews, but the game is stellar. The game got compared to the console versions, which it is not.

Now to go in depth (in case I hadn't already):

Sonic Unleashed is a game that kind of belongs to the Wii by default

Not a chance. I have seen gameplay footage, and just because you are writing something for OMGNintendo.com does not mean it belong there. Also, what justification do you have for this? Anything? Here is my justification for it NOT being on the Wii. With it's dumbed down God of War like gameplay, it would be much harder to sustain control of the werehog with a motion sensor remote. The daytime levels require some fast button movement on parts, which means you will have carple tunnel (however it's spelled) by the end of level 3.

With its DIMPS-designed daytime levels, the Wii SKU has managed a whopping... 72% Metacritic average! And that's seven points ahead of the 360 SKU

Hmm, apparently you missed what the users gave it. Let's see, a industry that is already overly biased against Sonic, or the users playing the game.
360 Users score = 8.3 out of 10
Wii Users score = 8.6 out of 10
I would say that is not a bad score at all. In fact, a pretty decent score.

The other stuff in this article I have already gone over. I have gone over that people praise Sonic Adventure even though me as a Sega fanboy got super annoyed with Big the Cat's existence, who am I to judge when a new game comes in with variety.

Screw metacritic. I will listen to the people that play the game because they paid for it, not the biased people that play it and get paid to.

Sadly, the Wii's higher score is coming from the game being shorter, which means less time spent in Werehog levels hunting down medals.

Well, that sucks that the main thing you do in Mario games is the same exact thing (just less fighting). You are right, it must suck then.

*Put his magnum back into his holster after that last one.

EDIT:
Time to polish this gun off.

The only reason I liked Sonic Unleashed is because they set the bar so damn low with their previous Sonic games that when a half decent game comes out, you actually enjoy it.

Bad camera angles = crappy game?
When did this happen?
The only time I ever, EVER had a problem with the camera angles in Sonic 2006 was when I was going through a shortcut that I figured out and was not intentionally in the game. Sonic Adventure 2 was awesome, SA1: enough said. Sonic Shuffle: Difficult, but still very fun. Sonic Advance: tell me again where the bar is set low with these ones? Did I miss one?

With all the advancements that have been made in the area of procedural content generation, just to name one example, being able to create a game with "this many miles of level", whatever that "ungodly number" may actually be, seems not only possible, but probable.

That seems borderline of randomly generated levels. Random sucks, because it is only a matter of time before one level is glitched from random-ness, and then all the Sega Haters come out abd bitch even more. Levels will be much better if designed rather than programatically generated.

That being said, creative level design and cautious repetition of gimmicks like those loopdeeloops and springs might make for a good solution.

I have been informed that the levels look awesome.

I don't know if the word "better" should be used with Sonic turning into a "werehog" and beating guys up, or wielding a talking sword.

As opposed to giving Mario a Squirt gun?

There is a rabid Sonic fanbase that buys any goddamn thing with Sonic and his shitty friends in it. Why take the time and spend the money to make a genuinely great Sonic game when you can make the same money for half the budget and effort? Shadow the Hedgehog for example.

I will admit when I do not like a Sonic game. I really did not enjoy Sonic Heroes. I did not like the way the game played. Shadow the Hedgehog, on the other hand, I did enjoy. You had a long post, so I will throw something in here about "reinventing" the genre (since it was compared to mario), so, the Mario sports games kept tried and true to the mario genre?

I have never ever found Sonic games fun to play. Such a waste of a game that it moves too fast and you sit and haphazardly sit and push the jump button like a retard.

This game is ripped on for being slow, but you don't like them for the opposite reason. This may be Sonic Unleashed is the game for you. Give it a try.

*puts the Sega pistol away for awhile

[chicnstu]

When I first started reading your post I thought you were going to be nice and not mention other games and just focus on Sonic. So there are a couple of things you said I want to help with (it's not meant to be mean :

so I will throw something in here about "reinventing" the genre (since it was compared to mario), so, the Mario sports games kept tried and true to the mario genre?

If a company does a side-story well then it shouldn't be criticized. The Mario sports games have almost always been great (great controls, no glitches, and fun). The Sonic side-stories aren't as well designed (ok controls, glitches, but fun), but most Nintendo games are designed to have no problems, most game companies don't bother to fix some of the problems that are in their games (I know you all have noticed them). And since a lot of companies have those problems in their games....a lot of companies continue to keep the problems in their games...so it continues.

Well, that sucks that the main thing you do in Mario games is the same exact thing (just less fighting). You are right, it must suck then.

But there is variety in the Mario games, the variety is in the level design. The levels have to have variety because that's what a Mario game is about...it's just Mario interacting with his environments, where most games are about the player controlling the character and interacting with NPCs (shooting them, etc.).

The environment is also very important in a Sonic game, the basic thing that made the old Sonic games fun was running through the different environments (outdoor, on/in a plane, in a factory spinning on screws and running in tubes, etc.) jumping on things, and finding the right way to use the environment to finish a boss (like jumping on the arrows in the totem poles in Sonic 2 to reach Robotnik).

Add those two most important features (perfect, creative level design and almost no glitches) to a new Sonic game and it should turn out great.

If you feel so passionate about people thinking about a Sega series and the reasons they are the way they are before making a stupid post then shouldn't you not make comparisons to another loved series?

I loved your post SegaAges and agree with most of what you said, I've been wanting to try Sonic Unleashed and you made me want to even more.

[Icarus Moonsight]

I, for one, am terribly glad you aren't an Alpacka, Master Moonsight.

Stomp on that Sonic Labyrinth once for me. That game sucks.

I got it covered. I'm gonna Riverdance on that turd...

Of course, then the Curse will kick in and Sonic's little bastard friends will hide the cart parts throughout Houston. It'll turn night and day every few minutes and I'll have to hunt the bits down, destroy the containing orb with an Oak Stake, gather up the PCB, various ROM chips and cart covers and kneel in front of the S Main St Roundabout Fountain where a tornado will whisk me away to the final battle with absolute evil. Playing another 3D Sonic game.

Thankfully I may not have to battle Sonic Team. Could you imagine the internal conflict?
"They are evil and must be cleansed!"
"NO! They made NiGHtS!!! They're good."
"Among the greatest evils on Earth is the once pure and virtuous, perverted and corrupted by evil!"
"Christmas NiGHtS... PSO... It's too much."
G-Boobie, be my second. I choose sepuku.

[Rob2600]

They may want to step down to a 2.5D

I agree, we need more 2D and 2.5D games!

[TonyTheTiger]

Putting nostalgia aside, could it be because the Sonic the Hedgehog games weren't very deep or innovative to begin with? Sega is trying to build a better Sonic game, but it's building on top of a weak foundation.

I'm not sure of the "weak foundation" thing. If only because I don't think Sonic was any more shallow than comparable platformers of the day.

What I will concede is that Sonic required less...active problem solving. In most other games you could die and then ask yourself why you died and take the time to formulate a solution. In Sonic you more or less held forward and let the stage comfortably guide you to the end. Most of the "thinking" involved such complexities as "keep moving up because water and spikes are at the bottom" or "run ahead and hope an air bubble is there so I don't drown." The most hated parts of the games were the ones that required precise platforming.

That criticism, though, can obviously be tempered by comparing it to Castlevania and its "slowly creep forward until something that would jump out and hit you doesn't and gives you a chance to kill it instead" brain busters. Or to Contra and its "If you don't shoot everything you aren't playing right." Or to Mega Man and its "Once you know the right order you win for free."

My solution? Suck it up and just build the 1,000 miles of level you need. If Daggerfall made how many years ago can do how many square miles then you guys can build that much worth of level.

[chicnstu]

What I will concede is that Sonic required less...active problem solving. In most other games you could die and then ask yourself why you died and take the time to formulate a solution. In Sonic you more or less held forward and let the stage comfortably guide you to the end. Most of the "thinking" involved such complexities as "keep moving up because water and spikes are at the bottom" or "run ahead and hope an air bubble is there so I don't drown." The most hated parts of the games were the ones that required precise platforming.

My favorite parts were the platforming and my most hated parts were the water, spikes, and trying to find an air bubble.

[Push Upstairs]

As opposed to giving Mario a Squirt gun?

Seeing Mario with a squirt gun didn't exactly make me renounce my love for SMB3.

[dethink]

The problem with Sonic is that he's the Poochie the Dog of platformer mascots.

Somewhere between Sonic 2 and every other Sonic game since, he's been shoehorned into every cynical marketing persons' idea of what a game involving a "hedgehog with attitude! should be. I agree with Rob2600...they were a pretty flimsy concept to begin with, but the first 2 games just seemed to get the design right. Once the series got whored out to folks with lesser skilled hands and nothing but gimmicky ideas (slow paced exploration a la #3, lock on carts, legions of talking characters)...

As soon as they re-focus on zipping through surreal neon environments and garish technicolor forests as fast as possible, call me.

For the record, I didn't enjoy anything past Sonic 1/2, and Sonic Adventure. I don't know if SA2 on the GC was totally different than it's Dreamcast equivalent, but there was a HUGE dropoff in quality between 1 and 2, IMO.