Piracy

[geneshifter]

Really?

Here's a disc. What kinda code is on it? You mean I can't find out until I buy? Oh, but I can see pictures and watch some ten second clips.

"Some code" can produce either a killer app or an app whose writer should be killed. Take Mortal Kombat for example. By only looking at the pictures and only watching some video clips, you'd expect the SNES version to trump the Genesis. Better graphics and sound all the way around.

Too bad the videos and pictures didn't tell you about the split second control delay, and that is something which makes or breaks a game. Just some code.

I'll simply refer you back to the internet where you have videos, gameFAQs, forums for technical assistance, etc...

There is no logical way you can argue your side of this argument beyond wanting a digital copy of it for true backup purposes in case your disc goes bad. Many media such as DVDs no longer have this fair use clause and it is illegal for you to back it up.

Not only that, but you can also rent the game from a variety of places. Treat that as a demo if you like. That's all I'm saying.

[kedawa]

3 of those games don't suck.
That puts the PC well ahead of the Wii when it comes to worthwhile games.

[kedawa]

I'll simply refer you back to the internet where you have videos, gameFAQs, forums for technical assistance, etc...

There is no logical way you can argue your side of this argument beyond wanting a digital copy of it for true backup purposes in case your disc goes bad. Many media such as DVDs no longer have this fair use clause and it is illegal for you to back it up.

Not only that, but you can also rent the game from a variety of places. Treat that as a demo if you like. That's all I'm saying.

You really need to try games on PC before buying them for performance and reliability reasons, and I haven't seen PC games for rent anywhere in the last five years.

[scooterb23]

3 of those games don't suck.
That puts the PC well ahead of the Wii when it comes to worthwhile games.

Oh my God, so witty....

Try to keep the thread on target, about game piracy, not trolling some silly anti-Wii "agenda"

[kedawa]

It is on topic. His point is that the PC market isn't worth sustaining. My counterpoint is that if that's the case, then neither is the current most successful console, which has an even fewer good games.

Stop being a butthurt fanboy.

[Porksta]

It is called demos guys, come on.

[Chainclaw]

Stardock has been doing an excellent job of selling and making money off of games with no DRM. Obviously not everyone can do the same as them, they appeal to a niche audience, and apparently that audience happens to pay for games.

The biggest issue with the whole piracy discussion is people try to argue morality against legality.

I'm not going to chime in one my opinions on the morality of the subject, but I do have a lot of questions about piracy.

Is it illegal if no one enforces the law? This is where the abandonware argument comes from. Obviously nothing is automatically abandonware, but there have been a few old PC game license holders who have officially "abandoned" their games. I believe the same thing happens with a lot of Atari 2600 games.

What about old abandoned games for old abandoned systems? I doubt anyone will persecute you if you pirate a Channel F game, but is it technically illegal? I picked the Channel F because I don't know if any company owns the rights to those games nowadays, or if they do, I doubt they know they do.

I guess I'll also ask, how is pirating games not available in your region illegal? For a specific example of a game that will never see a US release, Segagaga. I doubt Sega would do anything about it, I'm curious as to the whole thing.

[darkslime]

I guess I'll also ask, how is pirating games not available in your region illegal? For a specific example of a game that will never see a US release, Segagaga. I doubt Sega would do anything about it, I'm curious as to the whole thing.

It's illegal because sega still owns the rights to it, even if it's from another region.

I believe it's technically illegal to sell import games because it goes against the end user license agreement. That's why sites like lik-sang got shut down by sony.

[Chainclaw]

It's illegal because sega still owns the rights to it, even if it's from another region.

I believe it's technically illegal to sell import games because it goes against the end user license agreement. That's why sites like lik-sang got shut down by sony.

I assume a lot of this falls under international copyright law, then. What about companies that only create and sell software within a single region? What about someone in Canada pirating digitally distributed software that is not for sale in that country?

Also, lik-sang got shut down because they sold a lot of hardware that falls into a pretty gray area, tools for pirating software. There are plenty of importers who stay on the level, like Play-Asia. There are even large retail chains in the US that sell imported software, like Fry's Electronics. I even saw Jump Superstars for the DS at Best Buy a few years back.

The Mother 3 subject is also pretty interesting. Apparently the guy who wrote the fan translation visited Nintendo for unrelated business, and a few of the Nintendo employees told him how excited they were for the translation. I doubt anyone will be persecuted for pirating Mother 3, even though it is clearly illegal, and Nintendo would be entirely in their rights for punishing people.

[kedawa]

Lik-Sang didn't actually break any laws. Sony sued them for selling asian PSPs to european customers, and LS couldn't afford the legal battle.

As far as imports go, there's nothing illegal about importing games into canada. There's also nothing illegal about circumventing copy protection here, although even if there were, you could always import the appropriate hardware.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Holy shit, what a ruckus.

[scooterb23]

It is on topic. His point is that the PC market isn't worth sustaining. My counterpoint is that if that's the case, then neither is the current most successful console, which has an even fewer good games.

Stop being a butthurt fanboy.

lol. Fanboy. Funny stuff. Anyway...

Stardock has been doing an excellent job of selling and making money off of games with no DRM. Obviously not everyone can do the same as them, they appeal to a niche audience, and apparently that audience happens to pay for games.

The biggest issue with the whole piracy discussion is people try to argue morality against legality.

I'm not going to chime in one my opinions on the morality of the subject, but I do have a lot of questions about piracy.

Is it illegal if no one enforces the law? This is where the abandonware argument comes from. Obviously nothing is automatically abandonware, but there have been a few old PC game license holders who have officially "abandoned" their games. I believe the same thing happens with a lot of Atari 2600 games.

What about old abandoned games for old abandoned systems? I doubt anyone will persecute you if you pirate a Channel F game, but is it technically illegal? I picked the Channel F because I don't know if any company owns the rights to those games nowadays, or if they do, I doubt they know they do.

I guess I'll also ask, how is pirating games not available in your region illegal? For a specific example of a game that will never see a US release, Segagaga. I doubt Sega would do anything about it, I'm curious as to the whole thing.

A couple things: the companies that have officially abandoned their games, those are fine go at those all you want, and there is a fair amount out there.


Now the rest goes under the "I am not a lawyer, but..." clause

Just because the law isn't enforced...doesn't mean it isn't still breaking the law.

It's kind of like rolling through that stop sign on the deserted road at 4 AM. Noone will ever see you, noone will ever know, but you still didn't stop at the sign...so you still broke the law.

Also...persecution seems a little extreme, I think prosecution was the term you were looking for

For obsolete systems, there are still copyrights that protect those for a certain amount of time. Even if the company doesn't exist anymore, and all the people related to that company are dead...until the day that the copyright lapses...it's still illegal. Like you said, there's almost 0 chance anything will come of it, but it is still out there.

That's my understanding at least.

[geneshifter]

You really need to try games on PC before buying them for performance and reliability reasons, and I haven't seen PC games for rent anywhere in the last five years.

Oh OK, I see where you are coming from. I play a lot of PC games, too.

True, you can't rent PC games anywhere that I know of and reliability/performance are indeed major issues with PC games. Personally, I've just waited some time after each PC release and then searched for user feedback from someone with similar specs if no demo is available. If they don't provide a demo I usually will skip it until I hear a lot of feedback first.

[Chainclaw]

And on the subject of renting PC games, there are plenty of services nowadays that more or less follow the rental format. I had a Yahoo Games on Demand subscription for a few months, then GameTap, and currently nothing because my laptop can't play games.

On the subject of renting in general, some developers feel that game rentals are an even bigger sales inhibitor than piracy.

[kedawa]

I mostly just buy older stuff anyway, because it's so cheap and I know my system will run it, but with a lot of games, the official demo isn't a good indication of how the game currently runs, especially for games that have been out for six months or more and have been patched. The actual game actually runs better in many cases.

[Rob2600]

This might seem like a stupid question, but I'm curious to see your opinion: what about buying used games?

Of course, used games are legal. I'm not arguing that...but from a philosophical standpoint, buying a used game is just as bad as pirating a game, as far as the developer and/or publisher is concerned. Either way, the company doesn't make any money from it, right?


Jdc mentioned several posts back (near the end of page one) that people get addicted to pirating media. This is true. Some people have gigabytes worth of MP3 files that they've never even listened to. They download the songs just because they're there.

People do the same thing with Netflix DVDs. They get a new movie in the mail, copy it, and mail the DVD back. The copy goes on a shelf, never to be watched. I dont get it.

It's a waste of time, like most addictions, I suppose.

[G-Boobie]

I'm with Prog Ace. Bragging to someone that you stole their shit is dumb as fuck. Take yer medicine.

Amen.

[otoko]

I'm with Prog Ace. Bragging to someone that you stole their shit is dumb as fuck. Take yer medicine.

I don't know.. Wouldn't it be more talking about taking part of the act of hurting their business and way of life instead of "stealing" directly?

I know Ace worked on the 360, but he's not working on the games.. but since he's part of the industry it hurts his business when someone takes part in this.

I guess I could be wrong though.

ANYWAY. I also agree. eh. meh.

[ProgrammingAce]

This might seem like a stupid question, but I'm curious to see your opinion: what about buying used games?

70% of what i own is used. When you have 2000 games, even if you only save $5 each you've saved $10,000. If i want a game, and the used version isn't available then i'll buy new. So if they don't sell many copies, then they get a new sale. If they've already sold a ton and gamestop is floating in them, then they don't get the extra sale from me.

The whole "used games are stealing" argument is retarded. Right of first sale and all that nonsense.

The fact that publishers aren't usually willing to make additional print runs when the consumers desire it kind of kills the idea of not having used sales. You can't have it both ways. You can't create artificial scarcity and then bar people from selling used.

[Sabz5150]

I'll simply refer you back to the internet where you have videos, gameFAQs, forums for technical assistance, etc...

Again, can the same be said about a car? You can see how well it drives, you can hear the roar of the engine, but nobody buys before test driving.

There is no logical way you can argue your side of this argument beyond wanting a digital copy of it for true backup purposes in case your disc goes bad. Many media such as DVDs no longer have this fair use clause and it is illegal for you to back it up.

The fact that I am no longer allowed this fair use is what angers me.

Not only that, but you can also rent the game from a variety of places. Treat that as a demo if you like. That's all I'm saying.

Do you pay to test drive a car?