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Thread: Atari Jaguar or Sega Saturn

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    Yep...Saturn, no question. Most of the titles are fairly cheap, unless you want the US RPGs and a couple of other rarities. And as stated, easy to play imports, and almost ALL the imports are cheap. There are a few import beat em ups and shmups that are spendy, but aside from those, most of it is very affordable!

    Persoanlly, I also think the 3D0 has a bad rep. I LOVE that system...but you're right, getting games, especially complete ones, is well nigh impossible sometimes. That 76 game lot that's up now is the best pickings I've seen in a LONG time. And the only really expensive games for the US 3D0 are Lucienne's Quest and Star Control 2. The one thing that's good about the 3D0 that not many people know......it's region free. You can play all sorts of imports on it...just pop em in and they work...and there are a TON of Japanese 3D0 games that never made it here and most are very cheap if you can find em. Jaguar..forget it..it's more of a novelty with minimal good games.
    scooterb: "I once shot a man in Catan, just to watch him die."

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    While your particular situation would require me to recommend the Saturn over the Jag, don't listen to what most of these idiots are saying. The Jag is a great system with some awesome gems outside of the standard top games like T2K and AvP. Most of the people who bitch about the Jag are doing so mainly because they haven't played much of it, because it's popular to diss the Jag, or both. Sure, the Jag has some real duds, but so does the Saturn (moreso, due to the larger library). Somehow the Saturn has become a collector's "elitist" system, meaning that you simply aren't respectable unless you have one. I personally think that many collectors have overhyped the Saturn, as I certainly didn't remember it to be nearly as good as many people make it out to be. Not saying it's a bad system, because that wouldn't be true. Just don't believe all of the hype.

    P.S. Joe, you're smoking crack if you think the 3DO is better than the Jag. :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sauron2k3
    While your particular situation would require me to recommend the Saturn over the Jag, don't listen to what most of these idiots are saying. The Jag is a great system with some awesome gems outside of the standard top games like T2K and AvP. Most of the people who bitch about the Jag are doing so mainly because they haven't played much of it, because it's popular to diss the Jag, or both. Sure, the Jag has some real duds, but so does the Saturn (moreso, due to the larger library). Somehow the Saturn has become a collector's "elitist" system, meaning that you simply aren't respectable unless you have one. I personally think that many collectors have overhyped the Saturn, as I certainly didn't remember it to be nearly as good as many people make it out to be. Not saying it's a bad system, because that wouldn't be true. Just don't believe all of the hype.

    P.S. Joe, you're smoking crack if you think the 3DO is better than the Jag. :P
    I must've been sharing the pipe with Joe and the other idiots, since I'd also rank the 3DO above the Jaguar. Both systems have a healthy percentage of total crap, but I've enjoyed many more 3DO games than Jaguar games. Also, I wrote the one and only official Jaguar strategy guide, so I have (too) much experience with the Jaguar library. I'm not slamming the system to be cool, but because it has, pound-for-pound, the weakest software library of any post-Golden Age system. "Awesome gems" outside of AvP and T2K (a better version of which can be had for the PS1)? Do tell.

    -- Z.

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    I think you'll be pleased with a Saturn. Though its best titles are often costly ones, you can still get a lot of decent games at low prices, and the system's extensive library ensures that you'll be able to find something you really enjoy.

    And yes, the 3DO is, I think, a better system than the Jaguar. For all of its mediocre moments, the 3DO's library is larger and offers a superior variety of good games. Heck, even in the often negligible field of RPGs, the 3DO's selection of Lucienne's Quest, Blue Forest Story, and Guardian War outclasses the Jag's choices of . . . uh, I'll get back to you on that.
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    Peach (Level 3)
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    Ugh...Tempest3X...cheap copy of original masterpiece. No meltovision, not even the same great soundtrack, and the control didn't even feel the same. I bought T3X in hopes of repleneshing some of my Jag collection, when I had sold the Jag to get a PSX, then promptly sold T3X after a few weeks. Graphically, its close, but too many small differences made for a big disappointment overall.

    The Jaguar is an acquired taste, its for the gamer who wants to be a little eccentric, and non-conformist. It has one of the most unique game libraries to be found, and despite what others are saying, the Jaguar has a very comfortable controller, especially for us big handed Americans. It was the first controller designed to give the player a nice 'grip' to hold, and the only real problem you'll come across with the Jaguar Pad, is you'll get a sore thumb from playing too many good games!

    3DO vs. Jag? Please, this must be a joke. You wanna talk about your standard uncomfortable joypads, look no further than 3DO. 3DO flopped just as bad as Jaguar, and the Saturn, but tell me, which game system has the biggest support aftermarket right now? JAGUAR! If 3DO, and the Saturn are such awesome killer machines over the Jag, why is the Jag still being supported by a very large contigent of people who are making and producing professional quality games? I don't see this in the 3DO market, or the Saturn market.

    However I still say go for the Saturn, because its the safest bet, due to its larger library, you'll more likely be able to find a game you like. Even though given the chance, the Jaguar can satisfy your needs in certain areas better than the other machines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunstarhero
    Even though given the chance, the Jaguar can satisfy your needs in certain areas better than the other machines.
    Hell yeah. The physics model in Club Drive will have you in stitches. I honestly love that game, mostly because of the insane physics. I don't think I've ever laughed so much while playing a video game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zmeston
    "Awesome gems" outside of AvP and T2K (a better version of which can be had for the PS1)? Do tell.

    -- Z.
    Well, I had refrained from joining in on this thread, simply because I have such little experience with the Saturn I didn't think I could fairly judge it. But it was annoying to see such a consistent slamming of the Jaguar, and I think I can easily offer up several worthwhile Jaguar games:

    * Defender 2000 - the reason I got the Jag. I never really played much of Plus or 2000, but the Defender Classic was outstanding.
    * Battlemorph - I thought this was pretty good, myself.
    * Atari Karts - Played against a friend, this game is a blast.
    * Cannon Fodder - I understand this is an old Amiga port. I only ever played it on the Jag, and it may not be hugely impressive technologically, but it is also a damn fun & challenging game.
    * Battlesphere - Certain notorious personalities aside, this is a very, very good game, in pretty much all respects.
    * Worms - excellent
    * Doom - I never really liked Doom myself, but every time I've read a comparison of the different Dooms, the Jag version is always declared the best version available.
    * Zero 5 - Like 3-D Galaga. Very hard, and pretty fun.
    * Rayman - this game is also fantastic.
    * Protector - I haven't played Protector:SE, but Protector took my all-time favorite game & a widely appreciated classic, Defender, and did an excellent job souping it up, so to speak. Consider this a different take on 'Defender Plus'.

    And of course there's Tempest 2000, but you've already mentioned that one. Also, I actually liked Highlander a lot. I never figured out how to get past a certain point (& I don't like to use strategy guides as it feels like cheating), but until I got stuck I was enjoying myself thoroughly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunstarhero
    Ugh...Tempest3X...cheap copy of original masterpiece. No meltovision, not even the same great soundtrack, and the control didn't even feel the same. I bought T3X in hopes of repleneshing some of my Jag collection, when I had sold the Jag to get a PSX, then promptly sold T3X after a few weeks. Graphically, its close, but too many small differences made for a big disappointment overall.
    We must have played radically different versions of Tempest 3X, as I would call it an improvement upon T2K in every aspect, rather than a "cheap copy": better graphics (texture-mapped webs, et cetera), a better soundtrack, and better controls (although anything is an improvement over the Jaguar's horseshoe-crab controller).

    The Jaguar is an acquired taste, its for the gamer who wants to be a little eccentric, and non-conformist. It has one of the most unique game libraries to be found, and despite what others are saying, the Jaguar has a very comfortable controller, especially for us big handed Americans. It was the first controller designed to give the player a nice 'grip' to hold, and the only real problem you'll come across with the Jaguar Pad, is you'll get a sore thumb from playing too many good games!
    What is "conformist" about playing and enjoying a system other than the Jaguar? Please explain.

    And what is "unique" about the Jaguar library, other than its total lack of RPGs and its overall lack of quality? Please elaborate.

    3DO vs. Jag? Please, this must be a joke. You wanna talk about your standard uncomfortable joypads, look no further than 3DO. 3DO flopped just as bad as Jaguar, and the Saturn, but tell me, which game system has the biggest support aftermarket right now? JAGUAR! If 3DO, and the Saturn are such awesome killer machines over the Jag, why is the Jag still being supported by a very large contigent of people who are making and producing professional quality games? I don't see this in the 3DO market, or the Saturn market.
    While the 3DO controller had its notorious difficulty hitting diagonals, it was certainly more comfortable to hold than the nightmarish bulk of the Jaguar horseshoe-crab controller. The closet modern analogy to the Jaguar pad was the Xbox hamburger controller, which the public also hated, and Microsoft wisely shipped a smaller version for use by the majority of "big-handed Americans."

    Being a cartridge-based and less sophisticated system than the 3DO and Saturn, it's easier for homebrewers and garage-kit developers (certainly not a "very large contingent," however) to produce games for the Jaguar. Also, the Saturn and 3DO have protection schemes that renders CD-R homebrews, at least until someone discovers a workaround, impossible to run on consumer systems. A workaround for the Dreamcast has been found, which explains that system's robust homebrew market.

    I don't know that I would call the fruits of homebrewers' labors "professional-quality," except in the Golden Age market, since a single programmer/designer can equal or better the efforts of that era, what with 20 years' worth of research and knowledge to draw from.

    However I still say go for the Saturn, because its the safest bet, due to its larger library, you'll more likely be able to find a game you like. Even though given the chance, the Jaguar can satisfy your needs in certain areas better than the other machines.
    In which areas? Please elaborate. In what category of gaming does the Jaguar win out over the Saturn, or even the 3DO? RPGs? Nope. Driving games? Nope. Shooting games? Nope. Sports games? Nope. FPSes? Debatable, although I'd side with the 3DO (I enjoyed Killing Time as much as AvP, and 3DO also had Escape from Monster Manor, Wolf 3D, Doom, and a few others). Fighting games? Nope.

    -- Z.

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    This thread is way too long for the topic, isn't it?
    I am in the same boat as you as far as getting started on collecting (actually, this is my second go-round). I had a small collection, and just by chance the last two consoles I sold was a Jag and a saturn (actually I think there was a PSOne in there too).

    But I find it strange for such a group of collectors to give a unanimous decision. I believe you used the term "collecting" somewhere in your op, is that correct?

    Well if that is the case, I'll agree with each reply individually and disagree with the group's unanimous vote as a whole (man, I should run for public office!)

    Boxed Adventurevisions don't cost $1500 because of their fantastic library of 4 games! Its because someone figured out that a row of LED's and a spinning mirror makes a very cheap display unit. Thus, the console is unique and highly desirable.

    Likewise, the Jag machine has a loyal collector following for a reason. The motherboard on the Atari console is a micro-city of processors. It's the most technically interesting console of the last 20 years IMO. And you can get the whole cart collection pretty cheap. The great ones are Tempest 2000, AvP, and of course Battlesphere (CD) . Then there are a few good games (I actually liked Val d'Isere Skiing & Snowboarding). Later you can add the cd unit and expand your collection even more.

    All new consoles today follow the same cookie cutter design. In fact, console design really became standardized with the NES/SMS/7800, I think. Now consoles are made by the generation (16-bit generation/32-bit generation, etc). Before standardization how you designed a console was hit-and-miss (vectrex? Adventurevision? VFD tabletops?)

    The Saturn most certainly has better games and a far better library. And If this is going to be your only gaming console, you really don't have a choice, do you?

    But since ask which console to start collecting, I'll vote Jag.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahsMyBro
    Quote Originally Posted by zmeston
    "Awesome gems" outside of AvP and T2K (a better version of which can be had for the PS1)? Do tell.

    -- Z.
    Well, I had refrained from joining in on this thread, simply because I have such little experience with the Saturn I didn't think I could fairly judge it. But it was annoying to see such a consistent slamming of the Jaguar, and I think I can easily offer up several worthwhile Jaguar games:

    * Defender 2000 - the reason I got the Jag. I never really played much of Plus or 2000, but the Defender Classic was outstanding.
    * Battlemorph - I thought this was pretty good, myself.
    * Atari Karts - Played against a friend, this game is a blast.
    * Cannon Fodder - I understand this is an old Amiga port. I only ever played it on the Jag, and it may not be hugely impressive technologically, but it is also a damn fun & challenging game.
    * Battlesphere - Certain notorious personalities aside, this is a very, very good game, in pretty much all respects.
    * Worms - excellent
    * Doom - I never really liked Doom myself, but every time I've read a comparison of the different Dooms, the Jag version is always declared the best version available.
    * Zero 5 - Like 3-D Galaga. Very hard, and pretty fun.
    * Rayman - this game is also fantastic.
    * Protector - I haven't played Protector:SE, but Protector took my all-time favorite game & a widely appreciated classic, Defender, and did an excellent job souping it up, so to speak. Consider this a different take on 'Defender Plus'.

    And of course there's Tempest 2000, but you've already mentioned that one. Also, I actually liked Highlander a lot. I never figured out how to get past a certain point (& I don't like to use strategy guides as it feels like cheating), but until I got stuck I was enjoying myself thoroughly.
    Defender 2K: emulated version of original available on PS1 (and Saturn, I think), and more fun than the updated version.

    Rayman: also available for PS1.

    Atari Karts: here is the one category in which the Jaguar beats the 3DO by default, unless there was a 3DO kart-racer I'm forgetting. (BC Racers?) Also, were there any Saturn kart-racers? Still, AK was an awful game by comparison to other kart-racers.

    Cannon Fodder: great Brit-developed game that didn't sell for shit in America, and also available for 3DO.

    Worms: great game Brit-developed game that didn't sell for shit in America, and also available for Saturn.

    Doom: Jag version beats 3DO version; don't know about a Saturn version; would rather play the PS1 version.

    Battlemorph: decent stuff, although I was more fond of the 3DO's Shock Wave series.

    BattleSphere: a fine homebrew, but stoopid expensive.

    Zero 5: second-rate shooter.

    Protector: haven't played it.

    Believe me, I wish the Jaguar had been a success; maybe then my strategy guide would've sold more than five copies. But its library, even including the post-demise homebrews, is still horrendous, and many of the better games are available in equal/better versions on "conformist" platforms.

    -- Z.

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    We must have played radically different versions of Tempest 3X, as I would call it an improvement upon T2K in every aspect, rather than a "cheap copy": better graphics (texture-mapped webs, et cetera), a better soundtrack, and better controls (although anything is an improvement over the Jaguar's horseshoe-crab controller).
    I just don't understand whats so wrong with the Jag controller. It's comfortable, with a great grip. The real legitimate complaint would be the sometimes hard-to-access-during-gameplay keypad, which even I get annoyed with, but as far as functionability of the standard buttons and d-pad, I get far less cramps with the Jag pad over the rectangle pads produced previous.

    What is "conformist" about playing and enjoying a system other than the Jaguar? Please explain.
    Nothing is conformist about it as long as the reasons for buying the system aren't because everyone says Jag sucks. However, if one wants to go against the popular opinion and take a chance on the Jag, your showing a little anti-conformism. I like to go against the grain sometimes, its a little GenX thing.

    And what is "unique" about the Jaguar library, other than its total lack of RPGs and its overall lack of quality? Please elaborate
    Well, I can tell you its not cut-n-paste library which we have today between GC,PS2, and Xbox. It has games, and you should know this, which can't be found on other machines, even if you don't like them. AvP has no equivelant on consoles, and you can't experience the thrill of this game anywhere else but on Jag. It's not just a FPS, its one of the first truly scary survival horror games. Jaguar has superior Video Pinball titles, which you may scoff at, but it truly does have the best ones IMO. Some wacky puzzlers that aren't Tetris clones, even though they aren't the greatest games, they are unique.

    In which areas? Please elaborate. In what category of gaming does the Jaguar win out over the Saturn, or even the 3DO?
    FPS hands down, even over the Saturn. The Jag does the FPS better when it probably shouldn't. Saturn wins out in most areas, as it should since it was produced well after Jaguar was released, and I even pointed out multiple times now that Saturn is the better choice. 3DO however, lets see it had Return Fire, Road Rash, BurnCycle and SFII:CE as its premier games, which are all awesome, no doubt but I don't think it makes it better overall than Jag. Jaguar isn't near as bad as everyone here is making it out to be. It's probably got the same good-games-to-bad-games ratio as most every other system out there. The small library seems to enhance a false perception that the Jag has more bad games than any system ever.

  12. #32
    drowning in medals Ed Oscuro's Avatar
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    I'd say Saturn...lots of good Capcom coin-op conversions like the Capcom Generation series (from 1-5, 1 is a 1941-1942 and that other 1942 compilation; CG2 is Makaimura/Ghouls'n Ghosts stuff, not sure if anything later than 2 was released on the Saturn,) Vampire Savior, heck even Cyberbots is on the Saturn. You've got the famous shooter Batsugun and lots of other stuff as well.

    3DO and Jaguar I don't even really consider game consoles...meh.

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    One word. NiGHTS
    YES...My old neibhor used to have a saturn and he had nights, bug, bug too, and mr. bones so those are the games ive actually got to play for the saturn. But i just bid on one on ebay thats done in 2 days so hopefully ill have a saturn in like a week.
    You suck at life so i win

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    Quote Originally Posted by zmeston
    We must have played radically different versions of Tempest 3X, as I would call it an improvement upon T2K in every aspect, rather than a "cheap copy": better graphics (texture-mapped webs, et cetera), a better soundtrack, and better controls (although anything is an improvement over the Jaguar's horseshoe-crab controller).
    Graphics, maybe you can have that one. Controls? Are you insane? Or were you born with a deformed hand? TX3 has horrendous controls compared to T2K. And I surely hope that the completely useless AI bot in TX3 isn't something else you consider an "improvement". TX3 simply does not hold a candle to T2K in the gameplay department, no matter which way you look at it.

    What is "conformist" about playing and enjoying a system other than the Jaguar? Please explain.

    And what is "unique" about the Jaguar library, other than its total lack of RPGs and its overall lack of quality? Please elaborate.
    What's conformist is dissing the Jag for the same tired arguments that everyone else spews out on a daily basis. No one is claiming the Jag to be the greatest system ever, yet you act like it's heresy to say anything positive about it.

    While the 3DO controller had its notorious difficulty hitting diagonals, it was certainly more comfortable to hold than the nightmarish bulk of the Jaguar horseshoe-crab controller. The closet modern analogy to the Jaguar pad was the Xbox hamburger controller, which the public also hated, and Microsoft wisely shipped a smaller version for use by the majority of "big-handed Americans."
    So total hand comfort comes first before responsiveness and accuracy of the controller? Don't blame Atari for your undersized hands. I've seen kids have far fewer problems with the Xbox controller than what you're claiming you had with the Jag controller. And don't even try convincing anyone that daisy-chaining controllers is a good idea.

    Being a cartridge-based and less sophisticated system than the 3DO and Saturn, it's easier for homebrewers and garage-kit developers (certainly not a "very large contingent," however) to produce games for the Jaguar. Also, the Saturn and 3DO have protection schemes that renders CD-R homebrews, at least until someone discovers a workaround, impossible to run on consumer systems. A workaround for the Dreamcast has been found, which explains that system's robust homebrew market.
    Before reading this, I only thought you had no idea what you were talking about. Now I KNOW you have no clue. If you think the Jag is easier to develop for than the 3DO, let alone just about any other console in existence, then you really must be smoking some high dollar crack. Your entire argument just fell apart.

    In which areas? Please elaborate. In what category of gaming does the Jaguar win out over the Saturn, or even the 3DO? RPGs? Nope. Driving games? Nope. Shooting games? Nope. Sports games? Nope. FPSes? Debatable, although I'd side with the 3DO (I enjoyed Killing Time as much as AvP, and 3DO also had Escape from Monster Manor, Wolf 3D, Doom, and a few others). Fighting games? Nope.

    -- Z.
    Killing Time even in the same league as AvP? Are you out of your mind? Have you even played AvP? Have you played the Jag and 3DO versions of Doom and Wolf3D? You really must be nuts if you think that the 3DO's pathetic library of FPS can even touch the Jag's, even if it has a larger selection. Oh yeah, where's the 3DO's homebrew library again?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sauron2k3
    Quote Originally Posted by zmeston
    We must have played radically different versions of Tempest 3X, as I would call it an improvement upon T2K in every aspect, rather than a "cheap copy": better graphics (texture-mapped webs, et cetera), a better soundtrack, and better controls (although anything is an improvement over the Jaguar's horseshoe-crab controller).
    Graphics, maybe you can have that one. Controls? Are you insane? Or were you born with a deformed hand? TX3 has horrendous controls compared to T2K. And I surely hope that the completely useless AI bot in TX3 isn't something else you consider an "improvement". TX3 simply does not hold a candle to T2K in the gameplay department, no matter which way you look at it.
    I'm not insane (at least, not yet legally declared as such), and my hands are, thankfully, not deformed. I simply found TX3 to have better control than T2K.

    As for the AI bot, while I didn't notice a drastic difference between them, you've inspired me to go back and play the two versions again to look for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sauron2k3
    Quote Originally Posted by zmeston
    What is "conformist" about playing and enjoying a system other than the Jaguar? Please explain.

    And what is "unique" about the Jaguar library, other than its total lack of RPGs and its overall lack of quality? Please elaborate.
    What's conformist is dissing the Jag for the same tired arguments that everyone else spews out on a daily basis. No one is claiming the Jag to be the greatest system ever, yet you act like it's heresy to say anything positive about it.
    So you'd like to hear an entirely different set of reasons as to why the Jaguar's game library is atrocious? Personally, I think the "tired" reasons are more than enough.

    It's not heresy to like the Jaguar despite its faults. We all have our guilty gaming pleasures. I do, however, think it's silly to represent the Jaguar's software library as anything but mostly crap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sauron2k3
    Quote Originally Posted by zmeston
    While the 3DO controller had its notorious difficulty hitting diagonals, it was certainly more comfortable to hold than the nightmarish bulk of the Jaguar horseshoe-crab controller. The closet modern analogy to the Jaguar pad was the Xbox hamburger controller, which the public also hated, and Microsoft wisely shipped a smaller version for use by the majority of "big-handed Americans."
    So total hand comfort comes first before responsiveness and accuracy of the controller? Don't blame Atari for your undersized hands. I've seen kids have far fewer problems with the Xbox controller than what you're claiming you had with the Jag controller. And don't even try convincing anyone that daisy-chaining controllers is a good idea.
    I blame Atari not for my average-sized grasping appendages -- credit for those goes to my ancestors -- but for releasing an absurdly large controller that was very uncomfortable for a considerable majority of players to use, myself included. Microsoft's Xbox controller had the same size issues, and Microsoft, to its credit, quickly addressed the issue with the S-Controller, while keeping the hamburger controller in circulation for the large-mitted players who prefer it. If the size problem was strictly a Japanese-gamer issue, why is Microsoft now bundling the S-Controller with the hardware instead of the original model? Because it's much more inclusive.

    Daisy-chaining controllers was a clever cost-cutting idea, but certainly not a good one. No argument there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sauron2k3
    Quote Originally Posted by zmeston
    Being a cartridge-based and less sophisticated system than the 3DO and Saturn, it's easier for homebrewers and garage-kit developers (certainly not a "very large contingent," however) to produce games for the Jaguar. Also, the Saturn and 3DO have protection schemes that renders CD-R homebrews, at least until someone discovers a workaround, impossible to run on consumer systems. A workaround for the Dreamcast has been found, which explains that system's robust homebrew market.
    Before reading this, I only thought you had no idea what you were talking about. Now I KNOW you have no clue. If you think the Jag is easier to develop for than the 3DO, let alone just about any other console in existence, then you really must be smoking some high dollar crack. Your entire argument just fell apart.
    By virtue of my three-year stint at a game-development company, I don't consider myself uneducated on this topic. If you have development experience with the Jaguar, please enlighten me as to the particulars. One of our in-house programmers at WD insisted that the Saturn was far more challenging to program than the Jaguar, and he showed me many vivid examples of this. I'm always willing to admit when I'm wrong, so please prove me wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sauron2k3
    Quote Originally Posted by zmeston
    In which areas? Please elaborate. In what category of gaming does the Jaguar win out over the Saturn, or even the 3DO? RPGs? Nope. Driving games? Nope. Shooting games? Nope. Sports games? Nope. FPSes? Debatable, although I'd side with the 3DO (I enjoyed Killing Time as much as AvP, and 3DO also had Escape from Monster Manor, Wolf 3D, Doom, and a few others). Fighting games? Nope.

    -- Z.
    Killing Time even in the same league as AvP? Are you out of your mind? Have you even played AvP? Have you played the Jag and 3DO versions of Doom and Wolf3D? You really must be nuts if you think that the 3DO's pathetic library of FPS can even touch the Jag's, even if it has a larger selection. Oh yeah, where's the 3DO's homebrew library again?
    I mentioned in my previous post why the 3DO has no homebrew library; its CD protection hasn't yet been worked around. I should have also mentioned, however, that the Jaguar also has a homebrew market for the simple fact that it's an Atari console, and the Atari name naturally inspires a great deal of passion in hardcore games and homebrewers. (Sega is another company with passionate fans, which explains the Dreamcast's bustling homebrew/hack scene.)

    Yes, I've played AvP to completion several times, as I wrote a chapter on the game for the Atari Jaguar Official Gamers Guide. And, yes, I've played the Jaguar and 3DO versions of Doom and Wolf 3D; as I mentioned in an earlier post, the Jag Doom was indisputably superior to the 3DO. (Wolf3D was about even.) Of course, the PS1 version that shipped two years later was indisputably superior to the Jaguar version, which is one of my earlier points; most of the good Jaguar games are available on other consoles with better overall libraries. I certainly wouldn't call AvP, by itself, reason enough to purchase a Jaguar.

    -- Z.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sauron2k3
    What is "conformist" about playing and enjoying a system other than the Jaguar? Please explain.

    And what is "unique" about the Jaguar library, other than its total lack of RPGs and its overall lack of quality? Please elaborate.
    What's conformist is dissing the Jag for the same tired arguments that everyone else spews out on a daily basis. No one is claiming the Jag to be the greatest system ever, yet you act like it's heresy to say anything positive about it.
    Then again, those "tired" arguments are accurate. The Jaguar's library is replete with awful stuff, including some of the biggest gaming embarrassments of the past ten years, and nearly all of the system's decent titles are either dated or, as zmeston has pointed out, available in an improved form on another console. The Jag isn't the worst system ever, of course, but it almost looks like it when compared to the Saturn and its well-rounded share of excellent games.

    The allure of non-conformity is hardly a good reason to like a system, and I've always thought it the sign of a weak argument when someone starts accusing the opposition of being "sheep" or "conformists." If you can't find more sensible grounds on which to defend a system, you're not really doing your side a favor by resorting to such inane tactics.

    Still, it's interesting to learn that someone actually enjoys Atari Karts. I'll just sit back and see if anyone admits to liking Trevor McFur in the Crescent Galaxy.

    One more thing: On the FPS front, the Saturn has Powerslave as well as amazing translations of Quake and Duken Nukem 3D. Those are equal to, if not better than, the Jag's examples of the genre.

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    Well I've got three Jags but no Saturn, so I guess I'm in the minority here.

    But that's not to say that the Saturn isn't a fantastic system - it is. It's got a library of great games that is much more diverse than the limited library (80 or so games) of the Jaguar. Nights is a masterpiece and the 4MB cart allows some fantastic 2D gaming, most notably in the Capcom arcade fighters that were released. Not to mention excellent games like Panzer Dragoon Saga (which I sold for $40 back in the day - D'oh!), Saturn Bomberman, and Burning Rangers. Man, I really need to pick up a Saturn again one of these days

    That said, I've just gotten into the Jaguar scene much more than I ever did with the Saturn and feel more a part of what has happened and is happening with the Jag (playtesting, hosting JagFest, etc, etc) which has kept me much more involved with the Jag over the years. My roots are much deeper in the Jag community than it could ever possibly be with the Saturn, which would explain the abundance of Jaguar lack of Saturn in my collection.

    To be fair, the Jaguar does have it's fair share of stinkers, and has been lambasted all over the media for it. But if you look past the bad, there is quite a bit of good to be had in the Jaguar library. Battlesphere. Iron Soldier 1& 2, Battlemorph. Tempest 2000, etc, are all excellent titles and are more than worthy of spending the $30 or so on a Jag to play.

    Considering both consoles can be had for next to nothing these days, I'd get both and enjoy the great titles on each console.

    -Kevin
    \\ : NUON-Dome : / "The place to go for all things NUON." - Edge Magazine

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    My order of preference (very similar to Joe)
    Neo Geo
    Saturn
    Jaguar
    3DO

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    Quote Originally Posted by zmeston
    Also, the Saturn and 3DO have protection schemes that renders CD-R homebrews, at least until someone discovers a workaround, impossible to run on consumer systems.
    Just thought I'd point out that while the 3DO may have a protection scheme that prevents homebrews from working, it can and does read CD-Rs and *ahem* backups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anotherfluke
    Quote Originally Posted by zmeston
    Also, the Saturn and 3DO have protection schemes that renders CD-R homebrews, at least until someone discovers a workaround, impossible to run on consumer systems.
    Just thought I'd point out that while the 3DO may have a protection scheme that prevents homebrews from working, it can and does read CD-Rs and *ahem* backups.
    Not "may." Does. 3DO debug units have a switch to toggle the hardware between recognizing encrypted (production) and unencrypted (early beta) discs. Pirated copies of 3DO games work because the encryption is copied along with the data. (I didn't say it was effective encryption!) A 3DO homebrewer would need to determine how the encryption works, and burn a CD-R that replicated the encryption, then use that "encrypted" CD-R as a "master" to burn additional copies.

    I hear that Good Deal Games is close to announcing a couple of 3DO titles, however, so either they've licked the problem or figured out a workaround.

    -- Z.

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