Atari Jaguar or Sega Saturn

[Anonymous]

I've never tested a 3DO homebrew (although I'd like to), hence the "may", but I'll take your word for it. Seems if you are able to copy the encryption via a CD burner, homebrewers would be able to just copy whatever file they need to 'unlock' the 3DO and paste it into the game, unless of course they want to be completely legit.

My favorite copy protection scheme is Sega's Genny scheme which required a set of characters in each game that when placed in a certain way spelled out SEGA, thus making it illegal to copy

[zmeston]

I've never tested a 3DO homebrew (although I'd like to), hence the "may", but I'll take your word for it. Seems if you are able to copy the encryption via a CD burner, homebrewers would be able to just copy whatever file they need to 'unlock' the 3DO and paste it into the game, unless of course they want to be completely legit.

Again, I'm hoping that GDG will clear up the encryption issue for me (and us) -- although they might simply have encrypted betas instead of unencrypted ones, and so haven't needed to deal with the issue at all.

I've never tested a homebrew, either (heh), but I have a few 3DO beta discs that only work on my debug unit with the switch flipped to "Unencrypted." Perhaps that switch is simply telling the 3DO not to look for an encryption file on the CD, as you theorize. If someone out there is a hardware geek, I may be willing to let you take apart my debug unit and find out how it ticks, if you promise to share your info with the world; drop me an email.

EDIT: I spoke with Good Deal Games, and their 3DO betas do NOT run on consumer units, nor has the GDG team had any luck cracking 3DO encryption. In short, 3DO homebrews ain't never gonna happen.

-- Z.

[Zaxxon]

The Jaguar controller is NOT larger than the PSX controller. Get out a ruler and measure the width across both. They're the same. The Jag's center part is filled in with the keypad and that makes it look bigger than the PSX's which is open in the middle. If you can grip a PSX controller just fine and can't grip a Jag controller comfortably then the problem is in your mind, not your hands. The Jag controller freaked out gamers too young to remember the INTV, 5200, CV. I remember the constant comments, "whoa dood, how am I supposed to push all dose keypad buttons while playin a game dood?!". As if every game for the system uses the keypad when it was really just the PC ports.

I like how the Jag pad design was reviled as "horrid" and the N64's tri-pronged z trigger mess was "genius".

[Aswald]

Unless you can get the Jaguar somewhere, with games, for an unusually small amount of money, go with the Saturn. The problem with the Jaguar, as with the Atari 7800, was a lack of decent software support. The Saturn's abilities were also put to better use.

[zmeston]

The Jaguar controller is NOT larger than the PSX controller. Get out a ruler and measure the width across both. They're the same. The Jag's center part is filled in with the keypad and that makes it look bigger than the PSX's which is open in the middle. If you can grip a PSX controller just fine and can't grip a Jag controller comfortably then the problem is in your mind, not your hands. The Jag controller freaked out gamers too young to remember the INTV, 5200, CV. I remember the constant comments, "whoa dood, how am I supposed to push all dose keypad buttons while playin a game dood?!". As if every game for the system uses the keypad when it was really just the PC ports.

I like how the Jag pad design was reviled as "horrid" and the N64's tri-pronged z trigger mess was "genius".

I can grip a PlayStation controller comfortably. I can't grip a Jaguar controller comfortably. It's not a hallucination, and it's not an issue of width. It's that the PlayStation controller is very light and designed to fit comfortably in the hands, whereas the Jaguar is a big, thick hunk of controller that resembles a horseshoe crab. Also, the PS controller's action buttons (except SELECT and START) are immediately accessible from the fingertips and very responsive, while the Jaguar's number pad is awkward and ill-suited to fast-action games (especially with overlays in place), unless you're somehow able to work the aciton buttons with your right index finger and the number pad with your right thumb. The PS controller also has a much better D-pad.

The N64's controller was no winner, as evidenced by the fact that the GameCube controller is much closer to the Dual Shock 2 in design, but it was also better than the Jaguar's controller.

I still can't believe we're actually debating the "merits" of the Jaguar...

-- Z.

[Atari7800]

I'm probably way out of my league here, but doesn't the Jaguar have a Motorola 68000 16-bit chip as its CPU? I understand that one of the main gripes with the Jaguar's fairly unimpressive library is that few of the games really utilized the Jag's special graphics processors. Perhaps that's why many of the Jag's games look like 16-bit (the CPU is being used while the other GPU's are just sitting there.)

Whatever the case, the Motorola 68000 series is a very well documented chip (having appeared in the Genesis, Neo-Geo, and numerous computers) which would explain why programmers have warmed to it (aside from the cart/cd encryption issue.) The 3DO is harder to program, and the Saturn is an absolute nightmare (talk about a bunch of underutilized chips!)

Go with Saturn if you want the BEST games of the three consoles... Go with Jaguar if you like its unique history, its cart-based media, its homebrews, and its select bunch of good games. 3DO is cheap and interesting and has a better and larger selection (overall) of games, but its not as cool as the other two.

[BenT]

Go with Jaguar if you like its unique history, its cart-based media, its homebrews, and its select bunch of good games.

That's a really, really diplomatic way of saying its library mostly sucks. :)

[Zaxxon]

Go with Jaguar if you like its unique history, its cart-based media, its homebrews, and its select bunch of good games.

That's a really, really diplomatic way of saying its library mostly sucks.

No, it's a really diplomatic way of saying get a Jag if you really want to play old Amiga games.

[Zaxxon]

It's not a hallucination, and it's not an issue of width. It's that the PlayStation controller is very light and designed to fit comfortably in the hands, whereas the Jaguar is a big, thick hunk of controller that resembles a horseshoe crab. Also, the PS controller's action buttons (except SELECT and START) are immediately accessible from the fingertips and very responsive, while the Jaguar's number pad is awkward and ill-suited to fast-action games (especially with overlays in place), unless you're somehow able to work the aciton buttons with your right index finger and the number pad with your right thumb. The PS controller also has a much better D-pad.
-- Z.

Have you ever tried the Jag Pro Controller they came out with later? I have one but I like them both. The Pro-controller has a different feeling D-pad, 6 face buttons instead of 3 , L-R shoulder buttons and a slimmer design.

[zmeston]

It's not a hallucination, and it's not an issue of width. It's that the PlayStation controller is very light and designed to fit comfortably in the hands, whereas the Jaguar is a big, thick hunk of controller that resembles a horseshoe crab. Also, the PS controller's action buttons (except SELECT and START) are immediately accessible from the fingertips and very responsive, while the Jaguar's number pad is awkward and ill-suited to fast-action games (especially with overlays in place), unless you're somehow able to work the aciton buttons with your right index finger and the number pad with your right thumb. The PS controller also has a much better D-pad.
-- Z.

Have you ever tried the Jag Pro Controller they came out with later? I have one but I like them both. The Pro-controller has a different feeling D-pad, 6 face buttons instead of 3 , L-R shoulder buttons and a slimmer design.

Yep, I have a Pro Controller, and it's considerably better than the original, but I thought the "rules" of the debate precluded us from discussing anything other than the default hardware. If not, then we can also cite the PlayStation's Dual Shock, which is nature's perfect controller, brought down from Heaven by a host of angels. Okay, maybe not that good, but it's really nice.

-- Z.

[Gunstarhero]

The Jaguar controller is very comfortable, with its nice hand grips on the side. Whats wrong with the d-pad? The only problem I have with the Jag d-pad is that it's totally smooth, so you have to keep it clean or your thumb may slide around a bit on it, I wish it had a little texture to it. Other than that I think its positioned in a comfortable place. The argument against the keypad is a legitimate one, but fortunately a small amount of games actually used it. I still have problems with Star Raiders on the 5200 trying to access all those keys in a timely manner.

The PSX controller is a nice design all thanks to Nintendo. I don't remember Atari ripping off designs to create the Jaguar controller, and I don't remember Atari riding the back of another corporation to create the Jaguar hardware. Atari didn't have the deep pockets of Sony or even Sega, I think they did pretty good with the Jag.

[zmeston]

The Jaguar controller is very comfortable, with its nice hand grips on the side. Whats wrong with the d-pad? The only problem I have with the Jag d-pad is that it's totally smooth, so you have to keep it clean or your thumb may slide around a bit on it, I wish it had a little texture to it. Other than that I think its positioned in a comfortable place. The argument against the keypad is a legitimate one, but fortunately a small amount of games actually used it. I still have problems with Star Raiders on the 5200 trying to access all those keys in a timely manner.

The PSX controller is a nice design all thanks to Nintendo. I don't remember Atari ripping off designs to create the Jaguar controller, and I don't remember Atari riding the back of another corporation to create the Jaguar hardware. Atari didn't have the deep pockets of Sony or even Sega, I think they did pretty good with the Jag.

So your argument is that the PlayStation (not PSX) controller is inferior to the Jaguar controller because Sony "ripped off" and "rode the back of" Nintendo? Hmmm. Or is your argument that Atari is a more "noble" company? 'Cause Atari ripped off and rode the back of Magnavox, since it was proven in court that Nolan Bushnell had seen a demonstration of the Odyssey well before the release of Pong.

Atari did a'ight with the internal hardware of the Jaguar; it was the horrid library and poor marketing (and painful "64-bit" claim that no one ever bought into) that turned the system into an unfortunate denouement.

-- Z.

[Gunstarhero]

So your argument is that the PlayStation (not PSX) controller is inferior to the Jaguar controller because Sony "ripped off" and "rode the back of" Nintendo? Hmmm

I didn't say the PSX controller was inferior at all, I clearly stated its a nice design. Sony doesn't deserve any points for innovation however, unlike Atari and the Jag.

Or is your argument that Atari is a more "noble" company? 'Cause Atari ripped off and rode the back of Magnavox, since it was proven in court that Nolan Bushnell had seen a demonstration of the Odyssey well before the release of Pong.

Yeah, I know that, and as before I clearly stated Atari didn't rip off another company to develop the Jaguar, unlike Sony and the PSX, and you don't need a court case to prove that. Sure I have a certain respect for Atari for being innovators in the game world, they always were, and only Nintendo has come close to Atari in trying to invent new ways to play games. Atari was trying to create new experiences for gamers right up to the end, with the VR headset and VoiceModem for the Jaguar, even though they didn't work out, they were trying. Where has Sony Corp innovated anything in the game industry? Besides Marketing I can't think of anything major, surely it isn't backwards compatibility(5200), or the Dual Shock(N64 with Rumble was first).

[zmeston]

Yeah, I know that, and as before I clearly stated Atari didn't rip off another company to develop the Jaguar, unlike Sony and the PSX, and you don't need a court case to prove that.

If Atari hadn't ripped off Magnavox, it wouldn't have existed to create the Jaguar, since its first coin-op (Computer Space -- also a rip-off!) was a failure.

Props to Atari for all of its later innovations, but it's ridiculous to slam Sony because of an aborted business deal. At least Sony and Nintendo tried to work together, whereas Atari just ripped off Pong outright. (It's also interesting that Atari later threatened to sue the "innovative" Nintendo -- and even took racist potshots! -- as the latter company took over the industry.)

Where has Sony Corp innovated anything in the game industry? Besides Marketing I can't think of anything major, surely it isn't backwards compatibility(5200), or the Dual Shock(N64 with Rumble was first).

I thought the 7800 was backward-compatible, not the 5200, but I digress. Let me try to interpret your argument: the Jaguar is a good system because Atari was an innovative company, and the PlayStation is a bad system because Sony isn't innovative and "stole" ideas from Nintendo? (We seem to have lost the Saturn somewhere along the line.)

-- Z.

[Atari7800]

Sony brought the video game market screaming into the 3-D realm (they weren't the first with 3-D console games, of course, but they pushed it the hardest.) It might not be innovation or even that great for gaming (debatable) but you can't deny Sony's massive contribution ot gaming.

The 5200 was backwards-compatible with the 2600 when using the 2600 adaptor, sold seperately (like the CV)

[zmeston]

The 5200 was backwards-compatible with the 2600 when using the 2600 adaptor, sold seperately (like the CV)

I thought he meant built-in, no-adapter-required backward compatibility of the 7800 and PS2 variety. "My bad," as the kids like to say. Heh.

-- Z.

[k8track]

I've never played any of those other systems, unfortunately, but I do have a few thoughts on the Jaguar. I see so many people slamming the controllers, which I don't understand, because I absolutely love them. It's like holding a big, comfy steering wheel. Before the Jag, I always hated control pads and never could hold them the "right" way, preferring (and still prefer with the NES and SNES) to use them "Jeff Healey" style.

The Jag, to me, encapsulates wasted potential. It wasn't any better than an SNES. I sure didn't see those 64 bits being used. Still, I really enjoyed a lot of the games, even if they were done better elsewhere in several cases. My first two games were Atari Karts and IWar, and played them incessantly for the first few months. Of course Tempest 2000 and AvP rocked my world when I got them as well. Ultimately, though, my interest in the system died out (much like my interest in the 7800 did). Nothing has really compelled me to return to it since.

@Zmeston--I bought your player's guide back in the day and thoroughly enjoyed it. I must have been one of those five people!