eBay's new insurance policy?

[savageone]

So for the last month or so while listing tons and tons of books I'd been seeing this message pop up on eBay saying that eBay will be "removing the shipping insurance option soon" and I thought that sounded great. I _thought_ they would be changing it so shipping insurance rate will automatically calculated based on the auctions final value like it always should have been (instead of requiring invoicing).

But nope. They are just removing the shipping insurance option. Totally.

Here is the message I got on my newest listings:

What you can do:
* You will still be able to insure you items.
* You can fold the cost of insurance into your item price or handling fee.
* You can indicate, ‘The item is insured” or “Handling fee includes insurance.”

What you cannot do:
* You cannot charge the buyer a separate fee for insurance, either in a listing or after the buyer has committed to purchase the item
* You cannot indicate insurance is only offered upon buyer’s request
* You cannot indicate you are not responsible for the item once it has been shipped.

Does this make any sense to anyone? So now the seller is responsible after an item has been shipped now? Insured or not?? Are we supposed to hand deliver them??

"Fold the insurance cost into your item price" Christ, eBay would love it if everyone offered "free" shipping AND started putting another $1.75 in their item prices.

eBay has made a lot of stupid changes in recent times but, for me, this one tops them all. It just seems like an invitation for shady buyers.

I realize it is still possible to offer insurance on a different shipping option, but what a PAIN. Why the hell would they do this? I don't see the logic at all. Was there something wrong with the way eBay has handled insurance for the last 10+ years?

[Cornelius]

So now the seller is responsible after an item has been shipped now? Insured or not?? Are we supposed to hand deliver them??

Short answer, Yes, and it has been that why for some time.
Paypal's Buyer Protection Policy has indeed made sellers responsible for the item arriving at the buyer's address in the auction-described condition for quite some time. Basically, the shipping insurance option just charges the buyer for something they are already protected from.

This would be fine with me except that for international sales it just doesn't work (i.e. First-Class Int'l has no DC). I'm this close (holds up fingers) to just ditching international shipping altogether. I know it is fine in 99.9% of cases, but it still just stresses me out.

[jb143]

The shipping insurance option was always a bit goofy anyways. Offering it to the buyers that is. Shipping insurance only protects the one shipping the package(the seller). All the sellers that had something along the lines of "if you do not choose to include shipping insurance, I will be not be held resposible..." are just plain wrong. As I'm sure that many sellers(and buyers) on here can testify to, paypal has the buyers backs. Paypal, is the buyers insurance. I for one am glad to see the option go.

[ryborg]

The shipping insurance option was always a bit goofy anyways. Offering it to the buyers that is. Shipping insurance only protects the one shipping the package(the seller). All the sellers that had something along the lines of "if you do not choose to include shipping insurance, I will be not be held resposible..." are just plain wrong. As I'm sure that many sellers(and buyers) on here can testify to, paypal has the buyers backs. Paypal, is the buyers insurance. I for one am glad to see the option go.

Dead on. You took the words right out of my mouth.

However, a lot of buyers still like having items insured. I'd say about 5-8% of my transactions involve the buyer paying for insurance. If someone asks for insurance and hasn't paid yet, I'm simply going to create a new invoice with the additional fee. If they refuse, well, too bad. I'm not paying $2.25+ out of pocket every time.

[jb143]

If they refuse, well, too bad. I'm not paying $2.25+ out of pocket every time.

I always offer insurance, that's for sure. If a buyer doesn't know any better and is willing to pay for it then that's fine by me. Otherwise I try to weigh the risk on a per item basis. For example, if the item sells for a lot and I made a bit of profit on it and the buyer doesn't pay for my insurance, then I'll pay it out of pocket anyways. Some times it's just not worth it to insure shipping though. In the unlikely case that it does get lost in the mail sure, I'll probally have to send a refund or something but it's still going to be cheaper in the long run than insuring every item. Really the only effect this change is going to have on me is that the before mentioned 5% of buyers won't be paying my insurance charges for me...that, and I won't have to double check the paypal invoice to see if they paid for it or not(I'm always afraid I'm going to miss it).

[ryborg]

In the unlikely case that it does get lost in the mail sure, I'll probally have to send a refund or something but it's still going to be cheaper in the long run than insuring every item.

Exactly why I'm not paying for it out of pocket. I've shipped tens of thousands of items domestically, and only 2-3 TOTAL were "lost in the mail." A lot of people bitch about the post office, but I really think they do a great job overall, especially when you consider the volume involved. As long as I'm covered under Paypal's Seller Protection, that's all that matters to me.

[bb_hood]

Exactly why I'm not paying for it out of pocket. I've shipped tens of thousands of items domestically, and only 2-3 TOTAL were "lost in the mail." A lot of people bitch about the post office, but I really think they do a great job overall, especially when you consider the volume involved. As long as I'm covered under Paypal's Seller Protection, that's all that matters to me.

Its true that stuff pretty much never gets lost in the mail. In my humble opinion, buying shipping insurance is just throwing your money away. The one time that I had something shipped to me with insurance (a complete pcengine cdrom system) and it arrived damaged and not working, the Post Office pretty much game me a big F.U. when I tried to file a claim.

[grolt]

This would be fine with me except that for international sales it just doesn't work (i.e. First-Class Int'l has no DC). I'm this close (holds up fingers) to just ditching international shipping altogether. I know it is fine in 99.9% of cases, but it still just stresses me out.

Yeah, as much as I do like the coverage that PayPal offers as a buyer, as a seller it still drives me nuts. It really is only designed for people doing business inside the US - everyone else basically gets screwed. In my auctions I always provide shipping options with insurance, but when it comes to shipping inside Canada, the cheapest option for something small like a Genesis game or a Saturn game is $13.50. That is nuts, since I can ship to Australia with the same package for $6.10. So for that I offer the option of uninsured lettermail, and up until now have had a disclaimer that while I do offer an insured option, if you want the cheaper option you are acknowledging that I cannot provide insurance. Delivery confirmation is another thing I'm basically S.O.L. on being a Canadian, too, since anything international isn't going to have it unless the pricing is insane. So both in using Canadian lettermail or in shipping anything international (which is probably 70% of my business) I am always faced with the fear that the buyer will file a claim and I won't be able to get my insurance rebate from Canada Post (since PayPal can't do anything for me).

Since I'm ranting, how about the insanely short window for filing a claim with PayPal? Basically, if I do any business with anyone in Europe or overseas I have to open a claim knowing full well the package will probably arrive, but since the timeline PayPal sets is much shorter than what it takes for an international item to travel surface, I am forced to lock up the seller's funds when they are not at fault. Really, what harm does it do extending the claim deadline?

I also like how you can't even *mention* the word "check" or "money order" in an auction anymore without eBay flagging it and refusing to let you post it. On top of that, they won't let you post but they also won't tell you the reason why, so you'll spend hours trying to figure out what formatting errors you've made, only to discover you had the word "check" in the body. My TurboLister still has the "check" and "money order" options, but under no circumstances am I ever to use them. Sounds like a great idea to me, like apples in the garden of Eden.

[savageone]

Wups I forgot I even made this post. Any ways, interesting replies.

You know I can understand them telling sellers to remove the "not responsible" babble from their descriptions.. But taking out the insurance option entirely? That's just laughable.

As a buyer there are certain items I want insured, and there is no reason to suddenly have to jump through hoops to get it done.

As a seller it doesn't affect me terribly much, very few of my buyers want insurance since most of the stuff I sell is pretty low value. But I still see it as yet another invitation for shadier and shadier buyers to pollute eBay.

[stonic]

.....

[Japan-Games.com]

PayPal's claims system made all Sellers self-insurers. They're mostly just admitting to that with their new rules. Instead of going to the post office to make a claim Buyers can just click a few buttons and make a PayPal claim instead.

Insurance is a myth anyway. The US post office always has an out....the "improperly packaged" option where they deny the claim. I sent a Panasonic Q to the US from Japan in a brand new 5 mm thick shipping box with 2 inches of padding on all sides and it arrived damaged. We made an insurance claim, which is nearly impossible since they intentionally don't train their staff on how to handle it (ie conflicting information depending on who you talk to), and in the end they denied the claim because of "improper packaging." Then they never bothered returning the console to the Buyer.

[Japan-Games.com]

Someone said..."Since I'm ranting, how about the insanely short window for filing a claim with PayPal? Basically, if I do any business with anyone in Europe or overseas I have to open a claim knowing full well the package will probably arrive, but since the timeline PayPal sets is much shorter than what it takes for an international item to travel surface, I am forced to lock up the seller's funds when they are not at fault. Really, what harm does it do extending the claim deadline?"

Yep. As a Seller it's frustrating. I had a couple of people do this to me. Not only does it lock up the funds, it cancels any transfers that are in progress. I was about 4 days into a $2,000 transfer and they canceled it because of a claim for that reason. The claim was only $150, but my entire $2,000 transfer was canceled. So I had to make an $1,850 transfer the next day and start the whole waiting process over again.

Not only that, Sellers get strikes against them for any claim made, even if we win. Just the claim itself creates a negative mark on our accounts.

The guy actually said in the claim that there weren't any problems, he was expecting the item to arrive, he just wanted more protection. He literally wrote that in the claim itself. I protested to PayPal saying that that goes against the spirit and intent of the "item not received" claims process. He's making a claim that the item has not arrived and at the same time he's saying he knows the item shouldn't have arrived. It's completely illogical. It was an obvious abuse of the claims process to get around PayPal rules.

Anyone can actually do that with PayPal. You can file an "Item not received" claim the same day the Seller ships and you can basically turn the transaction into a COD situation by holding the funds until the item arrives.

PayPal's response? Just let it go. If I push the Buyer too much he can just make a credit card reversal then I'll never see my money. Gee, I said, I thought PayPal "vigorously" defends Sellers against chargebacks. His response? Well....uh......

So the entire result of the conversation was that PayPal was fine with him making a false claim to just to get extra protection, putting a strike on my account, canceling my transfer, withholding funds, and admitting that they do nothing whatsoever to fight chargebacks. But they did assure me that if the Buyer did this too many times he would be banned. Banned for what, I asked? You just told me he's within his rights to do that. So my only hope is that Buyers like him get banned by doing something PayPal says they're allowed to do....heh....

[tkusina]

Correct me if I'm wrong here. So for example, I ship out an arcade machine to someone, and the buyer choses a freight company that charges extra for insurance. The buyer opts not to pay extra for the insurance and the freight company ends up ramming a fork lift through the machine. I'm on the hook for that?! Damn right I'm not going to be held responsible.

If the buyer chooses and is responsible for securing freight and delivery of an item then that is the buyers responsibility. Most transactions on ebay have a designated method of shipment that will be used and is usually not negotiable.

The buyer should bear all the responsibility of the product being delivered. This includes choosing a reliable shipping company even if that means hand delivery.

Looking at this from a sellers perspective i could only imagine buying something from a company/person, having my credit card company/paypal not route the payment correctly and telling the seller "hey i made the payment, its my credit card companies fault, im not responsible for you receiving payment, please ship the item".

[megasdkirby]

I add insurance to an item because I want it protected. For example, placing insurance on a valuable item guarantees that the post office won't fuck up the delivery (although I've been surprised in the past...). When something in insured, I feel confident that an item will arrive, in most cases anyway.

Some items just don't deserve to be insured. Recently, I purchased an HDMI cable for $7 and the seller wanted $4 insurance? Fuck it, that's plain robery. I said no, and the seller sent me numerous messages about insuring the package, about not being his fault if it gets lost, etc. I told him that that's ok, since it's just a $7 cable, that it did not need insurance. The guy got pissed. I got the cable today, in perfect condition, and it works great. I'm guessing the seller wanted me to add insurance so he can pocket some $$$? I know I should not jump to that conclusion, but $4 on a $7 HDMI cable? Come on...

If I buy a rare game, or something with somewhat high value, I will insure it, no matter what. This is just a way to guarantee (???) that it will arrived to me nicely (???).

But I'm not going to insure a $1 item...

Also, I've had sellers in the past that ask for insurance and NEVER place it on the package (when insurance was paid for). I've had this happen a few times in the 10+ years on Ebay and on EVERY occassion, the seller stated that "I never paid for insurance" when I clearly did. So they have no choice than to reimburse me. Other times, they I've had sellers not put insurance (when paid for) and the items arrive. My guess is because the seller wanted to "pocket" the money.

When I sell on CTC, and the buyer asks for insurance, I will put it becuase it's for the item's safety and because the buyer paid for it. It's not nice to keep the money for something they paid for and I did not add. That's just not right. Other times, when I sell some expensive items, I add insurance myself even if the buyer does not pay for insurance, because I want the item to arrive nicely to the buyer and he/she can be happy.

[ryborg]

Yep. As a Seller it's frustrating. I had a couple of people do this to me. Not only does it lock up the funds, it cancels any transfers that are in progress.

Yeah, this is the worst. I've learned to never withdrawal 100% of the funds in my Paypal account just so I know it won't be canceled due to a chargeback attempt.

Another annoying, needless consequence of a Paypal dispute is that you can't use Paypal shipping for that item. I use Paypal shipping for all US transactions and any international when Priority or Express is used. What's the point of this?

I just had a buyer pay and IMMEDIATELY file an "item-not-received" dispute. What the hell? Now I had to manually create a shipping label and pay for it at the post office (or use my international payment loophole, but I like to keep those for Amazon purchases). What a joke.

Not only that, Sellers get strikes against them for any claim made, even if we win. Just the claim itself creates a negative mark on our accounts.

Got any proof of this? I've heard this a few times, but I've never seen any real evidence. I get more disputes and chargebacks than anyone I know and my account has never been hurt by strikes or marks or whatnot.

[jb143]

Wrong. The whole point of the insurance is to protect the buyer's investment, as well as putting the blame on the mishandling where it belongs (on the handler).

That's what many sellers have been saying for years, and some buyers being led to believe as well. Maybe it's technically true but practically it's just not. The seller fills out and keeps the insurance form and is responsible for filing a claim if anything goes wrong. The simple fact of the matter is that if a package arrives damaged or gets lost in the mail, then paypal & eBay is going to side with the buyer. If the seller doesn't want to worry about problems then it's the sellers responsibly to make sure the package arrives, not the post office and not the seller. Anyone who has sold enough items on eBay to have encountered problems knows that *practicality* this is the case.

As far as the buyer wanting to use another shipping option that the seller didn't specify, well I can't speak for that. I'd guess that they should both take responsibly.

Maybe the rules have been changing as far making claims, but this is the way it's always been in all my years of selling. Maybe as a seller I've just taken more responsibly than some.

[Ed Oscuro]

Does eBay get a cut of the handling fee? I thought that was just the sale price they were getting a part of.

Speaking of eBay / PP horror stories...once I had an issue with an item's condition, so I asked for a partial refund. We settled upon a small amount, but then PayPal ran through a day or two later and doubled the size of my award, even though I recall they should have known the size of the reward we'd agreed upon. Did not make me look nice.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Does eBay get a cut of the handling fee? I thought that was just the sale price they were getting a part of.

They get a cut of the PayPal transaction, which includes the sale price and the shipping / handling. So in essence, they charge you twice for everything you sell there.

[Ed Oscuro]

They get a cut of the PayPal transaction, which includes the sale price and the shipping / handling. So in essence, they charge you twice for everything you sell there.

Yes, but that's fixed at 4%. Still outrageous yes, but at least you aren't getting hit by the "invisibly folded-in" fees pushing you into another fee bracket.

[Japan-Games.com]

Yeah, this is the worst. I've learned to never withdrawal 100% of the funds in my Paypal account just so I know it won't be canceled due to a chargeback attempt.

Well I'm talking more about transfer time. My bank account is in Japan and sometimes it takes a full 7-10 business days for a transfer to come through. That's up to 2 calendar weeks. So I can be 10 calendar days into a transfer, then someone makes a claim and cancels my transfer, then I have to start a new one and wait 2 more weeks. So in total it would take 24 days to get the money that the guy hasn't made a claim on. Really crazy.

Now if I have a large amount of money in my PayPal account I do a transfer for maybe 80-90% of the funds, then follow that up with a second transfer for the last 10-20%. That way if a claim is made hopefully it will be covered by the second, smaller transfer, and the larger transfer continues on through.