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Thread: Any collectors of MSX or X68000?

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    Apple (Level 5) Arkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Oscuro View Post
    The MSX2+ wasn't sold in America either - I think that also was Japanese exclusive; even if it wasn't who wants to import a 220V machine? As I've said before - I really should test this out in BlueMSX - if the Turbo R runs Undead Line, that'd be a real pro for the system. I've no clue though since it either emulates the VDP of the MSX2+ or includes one; neither seems likely to offer different performance. I believe I've seen a list of the Turbo R exclusive games, don't recall anything that stands out.

    The only thing I'll say is that any Turbo R exclusive I'd want to play (Illusion City?) I'll emulate.
    Nothing useful in terms of MSX was released in North America. When I say Japanese only I mean in terms of the countries that were lucky enough to get MSX releases besides the pisspoor MSX1 stuff. That's the reason why the Turbo R doesnt have alot of software. Only one country got the model, whereas the other stuff was spread all over.

    a Turbo R can run anything ever released for the MSX line of computers, and the list of exclusive titles isn't much. Illusion City is one of the only ones of any consequence.

    an MSX2+ isn't really that much different than a 2. It usually has some extra feature, usually MSX-MUSIC built in. Nothing groundbreaking that makes it a must-have. FM-PACs are cheap and have SRAM so they're good to buy anyhow.

    NA people have to import either way, so if a Philips NMS8250 is just as available as an HB-F1XD/XDJ/XV , it wont make much difference which one you get. In fact the Philips 8250 is easier to open and replace things, has room for 2 FDDs, and has 128k ram stock, so its actually better than a stock Japanese MSX2.

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    drowning in medals Ed Oscuro's Avatar
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    The lecture is starting to grate on me. Sure, a lot of the "MSX2+" marked software just needs a MSX2, but no MSX2 is going to run Golvellius 2 or Space Manbow properly. Having the FM-PAC built-in saves another headache.

    The Turbo R doesn't have a lot of software because the computer's market share was gone. DOS-V had shown up by that time and even the market leader's (NEC) market share was disappearing rapidly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhan View Post
    NA people have to import either way
    I get the feeling this discussion has been...stunted. I already said that!

    Thanks for making me look into why so many MSX2 games also have the MSX2+ on the front (marketing, and the music ROM is built in; not necessarily use of hardware scroll).
    Last edited by Ed Oscuro; 11-03-2009 at 03:48 AM.

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    OK, so how exactly does one procure an MSX2 system (or 2+ because having recently tried Space Manbow... yeah, 2+ then :P ) in the states?

    Is there an online shop people trust for imports or are you folks good with the Rinkya?
    -AB+

    Holy crap. It's been a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AB Positive View Post
    OK, so how exactly does one procure an MSX2 system (or 2+ because having recently tried Space Manbow... yeah, 2+ then :P ) in the states?

    Is there an online shop people trust for imports or are you folks good with the Rinkya?
    well, i think shipping is still going to kill you

    theres always here
    https://www.risingstuff.com/store/in...tqto1on7d11nq7

    i think JGS only stocks games for it but you can still check there. I see them on ebay alot but price varies and they are usually a JP or EU seller.

    i lucked out on my MSX2 and found one CIB by a NA seller on the PCEnigneFX forums but that was the only MSX i've seen on a forum and havn't seen one for sale since

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    When you're dealing with heavy, bulky items from Japan personally I would just wait until someone based in the US/Canada has one, thru an online store, ebay, or another forum. It'll probably cost a little more, but you'll save on shipping costs. Unless you go with surface mail, but it can be a pain too.

    I got my MSX2+, a tape unit, and some software from a seller in the US.

    Also, Rising Stuff is a great store, despite the recent thread here about them.

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    Apple (Level 5) Arkhan's Avatar
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    An MSX2 can run Golvellius and space manbow just fine. I don't know where you are getting that you need an MSX2+ to enjoy them. A philips NMS82xx series MSX2 can play them perfect. Having the horizontal scroll of the MSX2+'s VDP doesn't really make the game different. Its cosmetic. Plays the same without it.

    A 2+ also doesnt have an FM-PAC built in. It just has MSX-MUSIC. You don't get the SRAM so you would still need a regular PAC if you want to have an external save device.




    if you want to import the options are:

    find a european with one since they speak english usually so communicating is alright. If you go this route youll need a stepup converter, and like a 1084S monitor to use RGB since trying to use PAL in USA is stupid. (unless they sell you a JP model)

    and then you can go on ebay, this guy RKLok sells import japanese MSX's from the netherlands, but he charges out the ass for everything. He shipped me 3 games wrapped only in newspaper overseas and they showed up smashed and wet since it was snowing out. Beware.

    and then there is rinkya, etc.

    All routes will cost a shitload to ship It sucks really.


    You can find an MSX2 euro model for around 20$ and maybe 100$ to ship it. Lots of spare Philips models floating around. They are the easiest ones to open up and do things to since they're a desktop platform one instead of a wedge-keyboard.

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    I have a 1702 so PAL tv modes are no problem as long as it's A/V out - I was thinking a Brit model anyway since I also eventually want to nab a Speccy... but the power step-down might be tricky.

    Shipping's always a bitch. I found quite a few nice a600s on eBay.uk a while back, less than $20 USD all of 'em... but nearly $70 to ship even without power. Annoying, to say the least.
    -AB+

    Holy crap. It's been a while.

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    Well the Amiga power bricks are light compared to the C128 / 64 ones... thats why they didnt make a shipping difference.


    If you are NA, youll need a step UP transformer. We put out 110 and it wants 220. You can get a working step up for about 9$. Those travel ones work since the computers use low amperage. No need to buy one of those expensive ass brick ones that takes up the space of a coffee brewer. I bought 3 of them off ebay. they're tiny little black ones w/ blue chinese writing all over em. They work great.


    If you're going Euro-MSX, shoot for a Philips NMS model. You won't regret it!

    They (NMS) have composite out, I *think* a 1702 will work out ok. You might get B&W image, and want to cry. Making an SCART to RGB cable isn't too hard though.

    (though they weigh more since they're in a metal casing)


    Rising Stuff had an MSX2 at one time, but iirc it was a Panasonic A1WX and has no disk drive, which does not help you at all. You could get a CF cartridge and use that as a giant FDD, but that's costly. Those are around 50$
    Last edited by Arkhan; 11-03-2009 at 12:32 PM.

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    drowning in medals Ed Oscuro's Avatar
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    Grab some popcorn folks, untangling this one is gonna take a while.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhan View Post
    An MSX2 can run Golvellius and space manbow just fine. [...] Having the horizontal scroll of the MSX2+'s VDP doesn't really make the game different. Its cosmetic.
    There is something inherently wrong with you telling me not to trust my own eyes. I would bet money you have not actually used a real MSX2+ due to your unfamiliarity with its actual features. This is no smear against your character; it's just hard to find good sources of informati-oh wait. I appreciate your contributions, but you have made some errors that I would like to address.

    [b]MSX2+ hardware scrolling feature[/url]
    I look at the MSX2 game Nemesis II (on real hardware) and can imagine Space Manbow moving like that - no thank you. I can just barely deal with Nemesis II, and even Space Manbow on the MSX2+ is not as smooth as I would like (ideally, of course). That's bad for my eyes, and for judging movement when the background is jerking along slower than the sprites; it's not just a "cosmetic" issue. Both Nemesis II and Space Manbow (and Nemesis III, aka Nemesis '90 Kai on the X68000) use the Gradius formula of hiding warps and peppering the game with walls you can crash into, so it's directly related to ship movement as you need to be able to dodge the scenery as well as bullets and enemies. A buddy of mine who bought my first MSX2 and my spare Space Manbow later is NOT satisfied by the poor scrolling, and is waiting for the day he can get a MSX2+. I ought to ask him if he's played Space Manbow on the MSX2, but I'm pretty sure he has and was disgusted. Both of us are semi-serious shooter players (I'm no good at them, but that's all the more reason to get all the help I can by playing them on the intended hardware). I had thought the unique MSX2+ features were more widely used than they are, and appreciate being informed otherwise - but you're way off the mark in saying that they are no use for the games designed with them. I appreciate your correcting some disinformation on my part, but you're spreading some of your own making.

    I think the bottom line is this: If you don't plan on playing any of the games that use MSX2+ features, by all means be happy getting a plain MSX2.

    Yet paying $200+ (which would be an excellent deal) for Space Manbow and then cheaping out on the computer to play it on doesn't make a mite of sense. It wouldn't likely be that big a savings either - $100 for a MSX2 seems to be the going rate (I paid $150 with shipping out of Japan back in August 2002, without knowing any better, for an MSX2 and a couple boxed SFC games [Ogre Battle 7 & Shin Megami Tensei II], which brings the price down to $70 if not cheaper). If you're seriously considering paying RKlok's prices for MSX2 units, + or otherwise, you ought to look elsewhere. Do so fast, though, because his prices may well soon become the norm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhan View Post
    [RKlok] shipped me 3 games wrapped only in newspaper overseas and they showed up smashed and wet since it was snowing out. Beware.
    I'm surprised he did that, and sorry to hear it. I was buying my MSX2 stuff some years ago straight out of Japan - with a native English speaker, so I had no problems. I have been interested in some of RKlok's stuff, and told him that if the prices were more competitive I might actually buy something. As it is, it's impossible to spend so much on his stuff.

    European MSX2 units vs. Japanese MSX2 or 2+
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhan View Post
    find a european with one since they speak english usually so communicating is alright. If you go this route youll need a stepup converter, and like a 1084S monitor to use RGB since trying to use PAL in USA is stupid. (unless they sell you a JP model)
    It sounds like you have had a tough MSX experience. Buying a European model if you live in 120V NTSC territory makes no sense because of the limits on video and the sheer amount of support hardware you need. You can use Japanese units with a cheap step-up - if you so desire, it's not actually necessary. A model that will more than cover the MSX series costs only $30; you can get a 1000W model - which will more than drive the biggest retro computer and monitor you can find - for roughly $80; compare that to importing 220V region consoles where you must buy a stepdown transformer at roughly the same price. Note that the 220V stepdown transformers all step down to 110V - so buying a 120V to 110V stepdown transformer leaves you right where you started with the Japanese unit without a transformer.

    Video is the other big issue. Buying a 1084S monitor is outrageous (and actually shouldn't be necessary even if you get a European MSX; just fool with the pinout to make it compatible with the NTSC world's RGB, or better yet don't buy a European MSX); they're older than most of the MSX consoles. There are other solutions for RGB; save the 1084S monitors for the computers they were designed for. My Japanese Sony F1-XDJ MSX2+, and the Panasonic FS-A1 before it, both have composite video with mono audio, and additionally RGB output. No fooling around with this SCART stuff is required (although the cables may well be the same before taking the different pinouts into account; mine uses a SCART style connector to plug into a XRGB2, and the traditional Japanese round connector on the other, which is something of a standard for retrogaming), and they also work fine on any domestic NTSC television with RCA jacks. Better than some of the original Japanese television game consoles from what I understand. Certainly better than packing along a bunch of stuff to play your MSX games on a television - all I need is a single empty space in a power brick to plug in the MSX's slim connector, and two RCA jacks for the mono sound.

    MSX-MUSIC confusion
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhan View Post
    A 2+ also doesnt have an FM-PAC built in. It just has MSX-MUSIC. You don't get the SRAM so you would still need a regular PAC if you want to have an external save device.

    You are confused. References for what I'm about to distill for you: #1 The Ultimate MSX FAQ - MSX2+ section, #2 - Same site, PAC and MSX-MUSIC section. The FM-PAC is MSX-MUSIC. You do not need the FM-PAC with a MSX2+, whose introduction marked when all manufacturers started routinely building MSX-MUSIC compatibility into their computers. It did not happen before with the MSX2 (~1986).

    The front of my MSX2+ clearly says "FM SOUND" on the front. It's not called FM-PAC or MSX-MUSIC because those are Panasonic's names for their terrible hackjob audio expansion. Everybody else just adopted the audio features because software developers already had started using the expanded capabilities, making support by other manufacturers a necessity going forwards. It serves Panasonic right for arguably betraying the intent of making the MSX a standard.

    On the point of SRAM, I believe you would still need a cartridge for saving if you had MSX-MUSIC built in, as it just adds the music. The Pana Amusement Cartridge just integrates that to sucker people into buying it. On a MSX2, you can buy a save-RAM cartridge without the music, and this is all you'd need on a 2+.

    tl;dr roundup:

    Japanese MSX2+:
    - Play the game as it was meant to be, dodging scenery with the greatest of ease, while enjoying not getting a headache
    - You don't need ANYTHING to play them on a US television besides what they came with (my Sony machine has the power lead built right into the console; the Panasonic FS-A1 has a unique, heavy, and rather nasty, power brick)
    - You don't need to buy an FM-PAC for MSX-MUSIC; it's in many 2+ units if only by another name on non-Panasonic units. You have a wider choice of SRAM cartridges as a result.
    - It's expensive and heavy to ship

    European MSX2:
    - Enjoy Nemesis II-style painfully slow scrolling and having walls lurch into view
    - YOU MUST Buy heavy and expensive 220V to 110V step-down transformers
    - YOU MUST Buy an obscure and hard-to-find monitor ~or~ other expensive video support equipment just to get a picture (you'll still need to get the sound output somehow; on the Japanese machines this should be a discrete signal in the RGB cable).
    - Is a disk drive built in?
    - It's still expensive and heavy to ship
    - You need to buy an FM-PAC or similar for MSX-MUSIC because it wasn't built in.

  10. #50
    Apple (Level 5) Arkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Oscuro
    There is something inherently wrong with you telling me not to trust my own eyes. I would bet money you have not actually used a real MSX2+ due to your unfamiliarity with its actual features


    You're right. I've never used an MSX2+. Should I take a picture of the XV also? Or are you done being pretentious.. Good thing you didn't bet money.

    As far as "improvements", Golvellius is OK scrolling no matter which VDP it uses. On MSX2 it just uses the line copy method instead of scrolling it in. You know they figured out smooth scrolling with software before the 9958 right?

    Space Manbow uses the adjust register instead of the scrolling on an MSX2. It plays the same. I've played on an NMS8250 and it is perfectly fine. Thats a European MSX2.

    Plus if your complaint is the jerky scrolling, I suggest you not bother much with an MSX in general. Unless you plan to not play any MSX1 or MSX2 titles that dont scroll super smooth which are most of them. The rest of the MSX gaming world knows how to cope with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Oscuro
    You can use Japanese units with a cheap step-up - if you so desire, it's not actually necessary
    Uh. Duh...

    hmm..

    There is no extreme limit to video when buying a Euro model, and a 10$ step up transformer isn't exactly support hardware. You make it sound like having a european model is a huge chore. Its quite simple really. Almost as simple as just having a Japanese one.

    You do not need some heavy disaster stepup/down for low amperage old computers. I was stepping up with a travel electric shaver adapter for awhile. Radio shack sells some decent ones cheap too. So "heavy" and "expensive" need not apply.

    PAL/NTSC makes no difference in ANY games once you have a picture on screen. and for that matter if you're forking out the cash for an expensive overseas machine, buying a 1084S or equivalent RGB ready monitor is nothing. I've got 3 of them. One was free, one was 30$, and the other has been in my house for over a decade from an A500. Plus making an SCART to RGB cable is trivial at best. You can make it without even soldering the wires. twisting and taping works fine. RGB is independent and has nothing to do with NTSC/PAL so I don't think I follow your "fooling the pinout for NTSC rgb".

    All you have to do is take a the video wires from SCART and connect them to the right pins on an 8-pin din. its trivial. Color matching. A toddler could do it. Not sure how there is really a better solution. Hell you could even take the audio wires from the scart and make the cable have RGB DIN and audio connectors on it and it'd be an all in one SCART to North America cable.

    There are even some mods you can do to be able to use composite and get color. Or you can get one of those pricey boxes. If you're forking out a load of cash for the overseas stuff, having a box to deal with PAL if you need to isn't so bad.

    I'll assume you haven't touched a Euro msx. They have mono audio out on the back of them. You seem to think its all shoved into the SCART. It has composite out on the back too.

    The 1084 is one of if not THE best, most used, and widely sought out RGB monitors of the retro computing era, younger than some MSX computers (not MSX consoles. Sheeesh), not even MADE by Commodore in the first place, and very versatile. They are just Commodore skinned.

    Using them for the computers they were designed for? Cmon, really? Should Atari users buy Atari monitors, and MSX users buy MSX monitors (Which don't formally exist)? I've seen the 1084/1702 monitors used with Atari, Commodore, Amiga, Tandy/CoCo, MSX, TI, and more. They were designed for anything that can be plugged into them, not just stuff with matching logos. Hell I have a PC Engine plugged into one right next to the MSX2+ that I've never used.

    oh and it has built in speakers, so... you can plug the audio cable right in the back next to the video cable. No real puzzler to get the sound output since there is mono out on the back of the european models just like the US ones. It's even got a headphone jack built in. Have you ever actually used/seen one in the flesh?

    If you can't find a 1084S, there are other RGB monitors in existence which will do just fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Oscuro
    You are confused. References for what I'm about to distill for you: #1 The Ultimate MSX FAQ - MSX2+ section, #2 - Same site, PAC and MSX-MUSIC section. The FM-PAC is MSX-MUSIC. You do not need the FM-PAC with a MSX2+, whose introduction marked when all manufacturers started routinely building MSX-MUSIC compatibility into their computers. It did not happen before with the MSX2 (~1986).

    The front of my MSX2+ clearly says "FM SOUND" on the front. It's not called FM-PAC or MSX-MUSIC because those are Panasonic's names for their terrible hackjob audio expansion. Everybody else just adopted the audio features because software developers already had started using the expanded capabilities, making support by other manufacturers a necessity going forwards. It serves Panasonic right for arguably betraying the intent of making the MSX a standard.

    On the point of SRAM, I believe you would still need a cartridge for saving if you had MSX-MUSIC built in, as it just adds the music. The Pana Amusement Cartridge just integrates that to sucker people into buying it. On a MSX2, you can buy a save-RAM cartridge without the music, and this is all you'd need on a 2+.
    The FM-PAC was the first MSX - Music cartridge. There was a PAC BEFORE the FM-PAC which was a save ram only cartridge. Its called the FM-PAC because it has FM MUSIC AND PAC save features. I think YOU are the one who is confused. Thats what happens when you read the ULTIMATE MSX FAQ like its a bible. Everyone knows to take that thing with a grain of salt.

    The point of the original FM-PAC, and it's clones (which don't include save features and hence are not called FM-PAC), is to give computers without FM audio the ability to have them without spending the cost for the MSX-AUDIO cartridge (The Philips Music Module). It's no shame on Panasonics part. Thats a stupid, overly opinionated thing to say and sounds like it is fueled by the editorial on the MSX FAQ about the FM-PAC. Europe never even got an MSX2+. Does that make all of the European manufactures wrong for never doing so? No. Not really. I mean you can clearly see how vital the + model was since nothing outside of Japan and Korea even got one.

    Plus if you use the FM-PAC on top of the built in FM, you can do some strange things with audio.

    MSX-MUSIC and MSX-AUDIO are both a standard.

    That's why if you use music software on an MSX (I will assume you never have), you can output to MSX-MUSIC, MSX-AUDIO, SCC, and PSG. It doesnt say "FM" or "FM SOUND". There are standards. Follow them.

    It says FM sound because that is more marketable to the average buyer than MSX-MUSIC.


    And before I forget, the Philips line of european models can have TWO disk drives installed. The only JP ones to do that are the HB-F700 and F900.

    Good luck finding one of those for 10$ like you can with an NMS
    Last edited by Arkhan; 11-03-2009 at 09:05 PM.

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    drowning in medals Ed Oscuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhan View Post
    You're right. I've never used an MSX2+.
    What I'm interested in finding out is if your wonderful PAL machine is actually running at 60Hz or just 50Hz.

    Plus if your complaint is the jerky scrolling, I suggest you not bother much with an MSX in general.
    We're not here to ask your permission. I'm just trying to interject some facts into the discussion and my impressions. Would you kindly dispense with the infantile behavior? Thanks.

    Back on topic:

    You're right that there's actually not much difference in Space Manbow between MSX2 and 2+ - looks like Konami was full of marketing baloney, and not optimizing their games. I fell for it. I'll admit this. Thanks for the correction, but keep the attitude.

    [quote]
    There is no extreme limit to video when buying a Euro model, and a 10$ step up transformer isn't exactly support hardware. You make it sound like having a european model is a huge chore. Its quite simple really. Almost as simple as just having a Japanese one.
    Once more - no special monitor is needed in NTSC territories to get a great-looking picture out of a NTSC MSX2 / 2+. No transformer (and lol @ $10 transformer). The big issue I forgot to mention is the 50/60Hz one - if the machine is set for 50Hz the game will play slower than it was meant to and the music is downtempo. Both are bad things.

    I was stepping up with a travel electric shaver adapter for awhile. Radio shack sells some decent ones cheap too. So "heavy" and "expensive" need not apply.
    That all depends on

    PAL/NTSC makes no difference in ANY games once you have a picture on screen.
    That's not a high standard. What about the game playing at the right speed, and the sound not being slower than usual? Those "cosmetic" details are more than slightly important to some of us. Playing any of my Japanese NTSC games at 50Hz would drive me up the wall.

    If you're forking out the cash for an expensive overseas machine, buying a 1084S or equivalent RGB ready monitor is nothing.
    If you're forking out the cash you might as well do it right the first time and get the MSX2+ which will output both mono composite and RGB so you have flexibility and the correct output frequency.

    RGB is independent and has nothing to do with NTSC/PAL so I don't think I follow your "fooling the pinout for NTSC rgb".
    SCART is not Japanese NTSC. Anybody who has experience with Japanese machines knows this. The pinouts are different; the refresh rates are different.

    I'll assume you haven't touched a Euro msx.
    That is also a correct assumption.

    I'd love to see a video capture out the back of one of these machines; I'm not a betting man as you noticed but I'm fairly certain the game plays too slow.
    They have mono audio out on the back of them. You seem to think its all shoved into the SCART.
    No, I know it has composite. It just happens that having audio on the RGB lead is standard in Japan. It's true for 15-pin and 21-pin as well. When Europeans start making consoles and upscalers like the XRGB2 that I can use together on the full range of domestic PC equipment, I will likely...have to hack together an ugly cable. With Japanese NTSC, I can use one cable for everything. This RGB cable will work on the many different machines that have a RGB port - even the ancient SC-3000 I have lying around.

    Should Atari users buy Atari monitors, and MSX users buy MSX monitors (Which don't formally exist)?
    No. The MSX user should just be aware that there are other options available, such as the XRGB2, the MultiSync XM29, and many others - all much newer than the 1084S and similar. A moot point for AB Positive (at least until that monitor dies), but significant for others who don't have them lying around, or who are interested in planning ahead.

    The FM-PAC was the first MSX - Music cartridge. There was a PAC BEFORE the FM-PAC which was a save ram only cartridge. Its called the FM-PAC because it has FM MUSIC AND PAC save features.
    Yes, that is what I wrote. What was in dispute was your assertion the MSX2+ units don't have MSX-MUSIC built in (without ever having used one so you would know the difference - the better to "take it with a grain of salt," I suppose). Most do. The unit you linked a picture to, identical to mine, has it built in. It's just called FM SOUND here because Sony isn't using Panasonic's term. These music extensions are functionally identical.

    Yes, we know that the PAC is a save-ram only cartridge. If you have a MSX2+, all you need for save ram is a PAC, non-MUSIC; you don't need the MSX-MUSIC features. That is why I said you have a greater range of options for save RAM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhan View Post
    It says FM sound because that is more marketable to the average buyer than MSX-MUSIC.
    It says FM SOUND because that's what it is - it describes the actual chip inside, which Japanese consumers would have known from consoles such as the Japanese Mark III FM sound unit, or the Japanese Sega Master System, possibly certain Famicom games with special mappers, and other systems. MSX-MUSIC doesn't describe what it actually is. When the MSX2+ machines were being rolled out, there was no MSX-MUSIC standard set forth by ASCII - not until the Turbo R. The other manufacturers likely didn't want to credit Panasonic for creating it, yet had to incorporate those features as they had already become a de facto standard.

    You made a point somewhere about your favorite PAL - region MSX having the capability two disk drives. I would like to point out that, according to your own criteria, this isn't very useful (for gamers) and thus isn't a selling point for most users; thus you ought to discredit it entirely. For practical usage it doesn't interest me much - I can use any disk game that I care to just fine on my apparently crippled MSX2+ with its paltry one built-in disk drive

    From where I'm standing: MSX2 non-plus requires an extra cartridge for MSX-MUSIC, which chips away at any savings from not buying a MSX2+. The speed of the PAL area units likely stinks to high heaven, and yes, you still need a step-down transformer. I'm not surprised you could get by with a cheap one...but as we've both been fond of saying, it doesn't make sense to get one that doesn't have a fuse in it and a little extra wattage capacity would be a smart idea as well (for the ability to use it with other devices if nothing else).

    I sincerely hope that clears up the last of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhan View Post
    There are standards. Follow them.
    Quote of the day.
    Last edited by Ed Oscuro; 11-03-2009 at 10:44 PM.

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    Apple (Level 5) Arkhan's Avatar
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    Attitude? Sorry, I guess I tire easily of people who use excessively over confident phrases like "get out the popcorn, this ones going to take awhile to untangle", followed by false assumptions, and incorrect information/statements.

    I only said the thing about scrolling and not playing MSX because well, basically every MSX1 game is herkyjerky, and most MSX2 games are too, so if you don't like it, you're screwed.

    I never said MSX2+'s don't have MSX-MUSIC built in. When did I say that? I said that they don't have an FM-PAC built in, because they sure don't. If you type _FMPAC without an FM-PAC installed, you sure as hell wont be taken to the FM-PAC screen. There is a definite difference between having FM sound capabilities built in, and having an FM-PAC built in. When will you understand this. Understanding this would have probably made you less willing to bet money that I've never used an MSX2+

    It's pretty commonplace to refer to the onboard FM of the 2+ line as MSX-MUSIC. Technicalities and splitting hairs doesn't accomplish much. Moonblaster, and Oracle for example use MSX-MUSIC/AUDIO as the indicators. Not "FM SOUND" and "OTHER FM SOUND"

    (and as a side note, that is my MSX2+ HB-F1XDJ, incase you didn't realize that)

    as far the PAL/NTSC thing, the refresh rate of the VDP doesnt effect the games unless the coder uses that timing mechanism explicitly. That's why when I put Hydlide 1, 2 or 3 in my NMS8250 it plays the same as it does in an HB-F1XV. Sure you will run into some games that are slow, but you can overcome that problem with a few lines of typing at the prompt IIRC (you can set the VDP refresh rate manually). I've run into I think two games that run slow and can't even remember what they are.

    You are aware that the majority of European MSX users use Philips models and play all of the Japanese games without issue because it isn't an issue?

    Also, if the soul purpose of your MSX endeavors is to play games, why even get a real one? Blue/OpenMSX suit that perfectly fine. Yes having real hardware is better, yadda yadda, etc. etc., but for the sake of saving money/hassle, it's alot easier to emulate. Every machine except I think ONE has all of the system ROMs available so that you can set an emulator up to use an exact computer models system roms. Its pretty nice. I use my MSX for more than games, so two disk drives is pretty handy.

    Id like to know where I said that having two disk drives is a bad thing. Some games benefit from two disk drives.

    again as for the 1084, sure there are some other options, but if you are setting up a dedicated MSX station, having a monitor beats having a TV any day.

    Whats so funny about a 10$ transformer? I can't help it you can't find them cheap. Or do you feel the need to buy the over the top brick sized ones that over-accomplish the mundane task of stepping up a low power 8bit computer. Please note, its STEP UP not STEP DOWN. Stop saying step down. How do you step 110v down to 220v?

    These work fine:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/110V-to-220V-50W...item58842540fd

    Last edited by Arkhan; 11-03-2009 at 11:41 PM.

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    drowning in medals Ed Oscuro's Avatar
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    Oh man I must've been having a bad day yesterday. I missed or misread half of your points, unfortunately I can't blame them on sarcastic misleading comments like the MSX2+ pic. Ah well, live and learn. I apologize for having wasted your (and my own) time quite so much, but at least I learned a couple things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhan View Post
    Sure you will run into some games that are slow, but you can overcome that problem with a few lines of typing at the prompt IIRC (you can set the VDP refresh rate manually).
    Something else to fool around with, great.

    It's weird that you disparage the MSX2+ / Turbo R for having some extra features that can be used for games (guess what this site is dedicated towards?) and yet argue for a system running in a region where most people will have to use the step-up, can't use their TV, have to set the refresh manually on a couple games, and so on.

    A PAC would be just a luxury if one has a 2+, and by not using one I leave the second cartridge slot open. I personally don't have a use for it.

    If having the second disk drive is more important than NTSC video for you, that's great, but most folks here would rather be able to plug into their television - that's also all that one might be able to afford. The "just use an emulator" comment is almost best left unaddressed; by using real hardware we (hopefully) learn things about the hardware and history; not only this, but most folks have bigger televisions than computer monitors. Warping of the screen, inconsistent brightness and dot crawl aren't a major issue for me with the NTSC composite of the MSX2 / 2+ - less annoying than having the background jump around in Space Manbow (which is not to say that I need use composite with the MSX2+; I can use RGB as well).
    Last edited by Ed Oscuro; 11-04-2009 at 08:30 AM.

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    Apple (Level 5) Arkhan's Avatar
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    In the interest of importing, its sometimes easier to locate a working Euro one for cheaper than a Japanese one. Like I said, you can find them for like 10 Euro.

    In most cases, people setting up old computers are looking to setup a "80s esque" setup, so factoring in a monitor is a given.

    If you're planning to plug into a TV then yeah, you are probably better off getting one that matches your native refresh rate, unless you already have the means to deal with it or don't mind getting the stuff.


    and, a PAC is just a save cartridge. They're still useful with a 2+. FM-PAC is the one you don't need so much.



    Theres 2 FM-PACs and a regular PAC


    also, note the little music note logo on the FM-PAC. You can note the same logo on the XDJ below the FDD casing, and on the box.

    Thats the MSX-MUSIC standard's logo.
    Last edited by Arkhan; 11-04-2009 at 09:58 AM.

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    drowning in medals Ed Oscuro's Avatar
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    Very interesting - I thought that PAC was only the name of the MSX-MUSIC enabled cartridges. I thus limited my searches to "save RAM" which doesn't bring up much - I could have looked for PACs all along! They aren't much use to me since I play the shooters straight through, but it's nice to know. I recall recently seeing a Konami cartridge (I believe), with I think a gold Pentarou or Konami Man on the cover that I thought was a save cartridge, although save RAM cartridges seem rarer than I had thought. Of course, if the MSX-MUSIC enabled PAC is the most common by far, it's probably still best to get that one for cost reasons.

    There is one last question I have, then: What difference is there between the Sony F1-XDJ and the XV? When I bought mine, I had the option of getting the XDJ or the XV. I'm happy with mine, but I've been troubled ever since by the seemingly identical features between the two machines. As best I can tell, they both have the same MSX2+ features (the FM chip, one disk drive), the ren-sha and CPU speed sliders, the kanji ROMs, and MSX-JE. I've always been puzzled how Sony could have differentiated the two in the market because they don't seem to be different.
    Last edited by Ed Oscuro; 11-04-2009 at 01:41 PM.

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    Apple (Level 5) Arkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Oscuro View Post
    There is one last question I have, then: What difference is there between the Sony F1-XDJ and the XV? When I bought mine, I had the option of getting the XDJ or the XV. I'm happy with mine, but I've been troubled ever since by the seemingly identical features between the two machines. As best I can tell, they both have the same MSX2+ features (the FM chip, one disk drive), the ren-sha and CPU speed sliders, the kanji ROMs, and MSX-JE. I've always been puzzled how Sony could have differentiated the two in the market because they don't seem to be different.
    The main difference between an XDJ and an XV is the MSX - MUSIC quality there were supposedly some circuit rearrangement to reduce noise. Nothing major really. The other difference is the case progression by the FDD.

    XD: Red
    XDJ: Gray
    XV: Black

    dont fret over having an xdj instead of an xv.

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    Apple (Level 5) Arasoi's Avatar
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    I own a Sony F1-XV, and it's a great little system. I got it to be able to play Space Manbow and some others on real hardware.

    I've been using the composite video output so far, I just haven't gotten around to making an RGB cable to plug into my NEC XM29 monitor yet.

    It's definitely a fun adventure for anyone who likes 8 bit gaming.

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    Apple (Level 5) Arkhan's Avatar
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    the msx is far and wide the best 8bit computer in terms of features and game variety

    The machines are built far better than the C64 too.

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    Insert Coin (Level 0) TheRogue's Avatar
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    Hey, greetings from Vancouver, BC, Canada! I've been a lurker for a while on this forum, but not posted much. I just had to contribute to this topic though. I am a collector of classic computers and game consoles. In regards to this topic I have a Panasonic FSA1-ST MSX Turbo-R upgraded to 512k of mapper memory, a Sunrise IDE interface with hard disk and CD-ROM, and MegaFlashROM SCC 512k for playing MegaROM images. I also have a Sharp X68000 XVI with XsimmVI memory upgrade and original monitor, keyboard, mouse/trackball and original system software in the original plastic disk case that came with the computer. I'm in the process of acquiring an FM Towns as well. I have many many other computers, but these are the ones that seemed relevant to the topic. If anyone wants I can post pictures of these machines for you all.

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    Apple (Level 5) Arkhan's Avatar
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    thats one expensive as hell MSX setup!

    very nice. Have you considered toning the sunrise IDE down to the CF reader instead? I imagine the one you have now is pretty desk-covering!

    pictures! now!
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