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Thread: Model Recommendations for Each Platform

  1. #21
    Red (Level 21) Jorpho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ze_ro View Post
    Well, there are always other ways. Personally, I use my above-mentioned Mac to write Apple II disks.
    Well, in that case you'd also need either a 5.25" drive for the Mac or a 3.5" drive for the Apple II - neither of which seem particularly common.

    It occurs to me that a Mockingboard would be nice to have for hardcore Apple II users, but actually I don't know how much software really used it.
    "There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." --Bertrand Russel (attributed)

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    Alex (Level 15) InsaneDavid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorpho View Post
    Without a serial port, you are pretty much limited to whatever disks you can find "in the wild". A serial port can be used to transfer data from a PC.
    Correct, but you can buy a cable that works for the IIgs and the IIc at RetroFloppy or make one yourself. Much easier to do with a IIe and a Super Serial Card however. ADTPro info for it here.

    As for the Mockingboard, one was inside my Enhanced IIe and it's fun to screw around with. In the big box of diskettes that came with the computer were a couple things written for it, pretty cool simulated voice sounds.

  3. #23
    Cherry (Level 1) JustRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneDavid View Post
    Correct, but you can buy a cable that works for the IIgs and the IIc at RetroFloppy or make one yourself. Much easier to do with a IIe and a Super Serial Card however. ADTPro info for it here.
    I second ADTPro. There are multiple vectors for transferring app/game data to a real Apple II with this app, it's cross-platform, and it can even bare metal boot it for you if you don't yet have a Dos 3.3 or ProDOS diskette.

  4. #24
    drowning in medals Ed Oscuro's Avatar
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    X68000
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhan View Post
    X68000: The X68030 model. Its got the fastest CPU and RAM, and looks cool as hell.
    I'm not aware of any gaming software that makes use of it. The XVI with regular 5.25" floppies is all most people will need: 2MB RAM at the least, 10 / 16 MHz switch for faster software. There are some games that would definitely have benefited from the higher specs of the 68030 and more RAM, like Gunship I believe, or Geograph Seal, or whatever other games were out there. The choppy nature of these games seems inherent, and you shouldn't be able to boost the resolution.

    Myself...hmm, I have a Pro (desktop format, expandable), disassembled X68000 Ace HD (black) with busted monitor, and an XVI.

    As Blue Lander also said recently, a lot of the X68000 software consists of arcade ports. Not a lot of original software, though it has the legendary Akumajo Dracula from '93 and Nemesis '90 Kai. It may be best just to go for arcade PCBs if one is looking for specific games that got arcade releases, depending on the price of the PCB. You'd probably save some money, on the whole, going with X68000 given how ubiquitous and cheap some ports of specialized arcade games are, i.e. Space Harrier or Thunder Blade; of course controllers are usable across many different games, games like Pac-Land have their own dedicated controller but you shouldn't have to use them and it's still a money and especially savings over arcade setups. Konami games tend to be more expensive, but so are the PCBs.

    Funny story: After paying out the nose for the XVI, my source then comes up with an X68030 in like condition. Of course he probably had no idea it was coming, so...

    FM Towns:
    There's a whole ton of configurations to choose from here.

    FM Towns Marty 1 & 2: I'm told the difference is just cosmetic. Used as a home console. Might not be compatible with all software; reportedly you may need a floppy drive for some games.

    FM Towns Car Marty: Used for a GPS system, but can be pressed into service as a close analogue to a Marty. Can be used on a regular television with a special cable. Has ports on the back for floppy and keyboard (mouse as well I think). Seems overhyped due to its supposed rarity without promising new features. I like the form factor though (integrated carrying handle!).

    FM Towns II - seems more like a complete hardware rev, i.e. more powerful processor and so on. Mine seems to be a small '95-era Macintosh-form slim "monitor pedal" desktop, and a monitor to match that. Others include a "classic Mac" all-in-one form factor machine with integrated monitor. Should be compatible with everything of note. I haven't started testing / playing my software on that system though.

    Note: I have seen TV tuners for both X68000 and FM Towns. They may have some use for playing on a television.

    Keep in mind that the FM Towns series is also home to a lot of arcade ports, so if that is your focus Blue Lander's notes about the uselessness of such a system applies again with MAME and superguns around. After the enthusiasm wears off, what do you have that you can't get elsewhere? The system shines with RPGs and adventure games though - not the H-game material the system is infamous for, but ports of famous games from Lucasarts, Origin Systems, and some others. It's got the best version of Loom, some Ultima games with CD voice acting (!) and other fun stuff. Ultima Underworld (I think both of them) adds a FPS element. Not too shabby, but it seems only sellers who don't know what they have will let these titles go cheaply.

    Many of the arcade ports run better on original hardware. Hishou Zame (Flying Shark or Sky Shark) has amazingly bad video modes on a TV. Raiden (as Raiden Densetsu) is squeezed into a smaller space than normal. You've got craptastic CD music in most games that's either arcade plus echo, or "enhanced:" hardly beyond the quality of an X68000 with Roland synthesizer plugged in, and usually far worse than arcade original (although I think that Blandia fares pretty well on FM Towns). On the other hand, awesome music remixes seem to be the only saving grace for Galaxy Force II. Still, the music was worth the entry fee IMO.

    I still love the FM Towns games in general - nicest game artwork available outside of game flyers and the original game cabinets, for instance. It has a fairly beefy CPU as well; Ving, CRI, and whoever was putting out Taito ports seemed to put a good amount of resources into programming for this system, and they also should've had a little extra over the 68000 to play with.

    Mac Classic
    So many models to choose from - find games first, then think about a model. If it's a non-Apple II-line game, you should be able to make do with the '95-era Macintosh Performas or similar running System 7.6.1, which is about the time they switched to the PPC. I have about three or four Macs from that era. For Macintosh IIc (maybe up to IIe?) there is also the system-on-a-chip that plugs into the Processor Direct Slot on some systems. I don't have one of those, unfortunately.
    Last edited by Ed Oscuro; 11-08-2009 at 10:47 PM.

  5. #25
    Apple (Level 5) Arkhan's Avatar
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    If youre going to get a 68000 you might as well get the beefed up one incase you decide to do something besides play games on it. They all cost out the ass anyways half the time. lol

    plus 680xx assembly is awesometime

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    Red (Level 21) Jorpho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhan View Post
    incase you decide to do something besides play games on it.
    Like what, exactly? Use some obscure Japanese application program? Browse the Internet with some poorly-supported outdated web browser?
    "There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." --Bertrand Russel (attributed)

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    Startin' From Scratch Custom rank graphic
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    Hey, if you can go on IRC on an A8, why not put a X68000 online?
    -AB+

    Holy crap. It's been a while.

  8. #28
    I like Fezzes. Fezzes are cool. ubikuberalles's Avatar
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    I'll just touch on a few:

    Atari 8-bit: Can't go wrong with the 800XL.
    Atari ST - I prefer the 1040 STE although I'm not familiar with all the ST models.
    Apple II - I like the Apple IIgs the best.

    (Pronounced: OO-bik-OO-ber-ALL-ess)
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soviet Conscript View Post
    you do like me and buy or make a towerized A1200. you can probibly put one together for cheaper then buying a stock 4000T and more powerful in some respects
    Probably cheaper than a 4000... but certainly not cheap in a general sense! For anyone other than a power user, I'd say you're perfectly well off with just a regular '030 accelerator, which should fit just fine in the trapdoor slot without having to gut the entire computer.

    I know there are much faster accelerators available, but anything that you can't do with an '030 is probably best done on your regular computer anyways.

    --Zero

  10. #30
    Apple (Level 5) Arkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorpho View Post
    Like what, exactly? Use some obscure Japanese application program? Browse the Internet with some poorly-supported outdated web browser?
    I was thinking more like programming, mods, experimenting....those obscure Japanese programs aren't really as much of a problem if you can read them though....

    plus when you're talking old-computer you're automatically talking obscure and or poorly supported software with no actual use in 2009 most of the time.

    most people arent buying these things to replace their WinXP desktops.
    Aetherbyte: PC-Engine and more homebrew

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    Red (Level 21) Jorpho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhan View Post
    most people arent buying these things to replace their WinXP desktops.
    Indeed, they're probably using them to play games.
    "There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." --Bertrand Russel (attributed)

  12. #32
    drowning in medals Ed Oscuro's Avatar
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    Is there anything stopping one from getting a Pro and swapping out the CPU?

    Well, maybe that's a question I'll be better prepared to answer if / when I remember to get enough money to ship together and can still convince NeoGeoMan that it's mine...and the stars align, and so on. I think that it may not be surface mount, but maybe that's just a dream.

    The BIGGEST problem with the X68000 series and expandability, I would guess, is hard drive support. I'm not aware of anything like a SASI -> SCSI adapter that works on the X68000 (that would make things much simpler); whenever "FM Towns / X68000 compatible" drives (of unknown reliability) show up on eBay they go for as much as an XVI Compact.
    Last edited by Ed Oscuro; 11-09-2009 at 06:43 PM.

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    Apple (Level 5) Arkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorpho View Post
    Indeed, they're probably using them to play games.
    thaaaat was why i said

    If youre going to get a 68000 you might as well get the beefed up one incase you decide to do something besides play games on it. They all cost out the ass anyways half the time. lol
    lol
    Aetherbyte: PC-Engine and more homebrew

  14. #34
    drowning in medals Ed Oscuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Family Computer View Post
    I am interested in getting more knowledge about retro computers. I was hoping we could get some model recommendations for each type of computer, and I can update this first post with all the findings.

    Maybe something like: Minimum Recommended, Overall Recommendation, and Rare/Overkill Recommendation
    So have we all been missing the point?

    I find it hard to believe the OP was looking for a software development, I think "rare" was more like "this is not going to be useful for many game titles." Easy enough to say what one means in a post though.

    I doubt that an XVI is more expensive than a X68030, so there may be a savings there which will let somebody buy a game or peripheral they otherwise would have had to put off. That is important when games are the focus.

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    Apple (Level 5) Arkhan's Avatar
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    im pretty sure the original point was to get input on various models for old computers for a hobbyist in terms of what they can do with said machine.

    That usually implies that the person intends to do more than just fire up some games. Just because it doesn't replace a modern computer doesn't mean there are non-game aspects to the computers worth exploring.

    Aetherbyte: PC-Engine and more homebrew

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    Cherry (Level 1)
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    Thanks to everyone who has given their input so far.

    I have been lurking this thread everyday, and its exactly the type of info/discussion I wanted to get going.

    I plan to update the first post as stated, but I just wanted to give the discussions a little bit more time to develop. I am a newbie for all these computers, so I don't personally have much to add.

    As far as the original point? I really meant recommendations for overall use of the computer. Even though games are obviously a big part of it, I think that part of the appeal of these retro computers is seeing how technology has changed (and hasn't changed). So I would definitely be digging into whatever the computer has to offer, even if its not necessarily practical for everyday use.

  17. #37
    drowning in medals Ed Oscuro's Avatar
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    Then my suggestion is to try emulation before you do something like me and get a bunch of stuff and not use it...these machines get rarer by the year and upkeep can be a pain in the butt (X68000 especially, what with the exploding power supply). It's not that I don't think anybody would be careful, but more the point that there is a lot of trouble getting some of these systems set up properly and to go through the expense of buying a machine and then not really using it...well. Amiga, not so big a deal. MSX2, again not so big a deal. FM Towns and X68000, bigger deal! Bigger sticker shock! Harder to find drives, and so on.

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    Red (Level 21) Jorpho's Avatar
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    By the way, would there be much point to getting an MSX Turbo R at this point? Does it break any compatibility?
    "There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." --Bertrand Russel (attributed)

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    Here's my recommendations for getting a PC-8801: First, you need to decide if you want a model that can play old PC-8001 games. Most of these games were on cassette, and many of the newer PC-8801's don't have a Cassette tape interface. If you don't care about that, go ahead with one of the newer, nicer looking models.

    Secondly, you need to decide if you want a PC-88 you can upgrade. Some of the smaller newer units don't have expansion ports, so you can't add additional cards for hard disk controllers and whatnot. You can save a lot of money on shipping if you get a small light unit, but you probably won't be able to upgrade it later.

    Lastly, I recommend buying a COMPLETE unit, meaning with a keyboard included. Different models of the PC-88 take different kinds of keyboards, and they all have incompatible connectors. Finding the right keyboard can be difficult and expensive, so better to just buy one with the unit.

    This is the first PC-8801 I bought, the FE: http://www.old-computers.com/MUSEUM/...asp?st=1&c=400
    It's small, light, and you can hook it up to a TV. However, it doesn't support a cassette deck, it doesn't have BASIC built in, and there aren't any expansion ports. I then bought a PC-8801 MKIIsr which is a fullly featured unit that works with just about anything. However,you have to hook it up to an RGB monitor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Oscuro View Post
    X68000

    I'm not aware of any gaming software that makes use of it. The XVI with regular 5.25" floppies is all most people will need: 2MB RAM at the least, 10 / 16 MHz switch for faster software. There are some games that would definitely have benefited from the higher specs of the 68030 and more RAM, like Gunship I believe, or Geograph Seal, or whatever other games were out there. The choppy nature of these games seems inherent, and you shouldn't be able to boost the resolution.
    Is Geograph Seal better on a 68030? I've only played it on a 68000 based X68000, and it's not too bad considering the hardware it's running on...

    I can't recommend a specific model of the X68000 to buy, but I can tell you NOT to buy the original one, because that's what I bought. It's cheaper than the others, but it's very difficult to upgrade the RAM in it. It's only got a megabyte built in, which is good enough for most games, but many require 2 megs. Each model X68k requires a different model memory upgrade module, so you can't put a megabyte of RAM designed for a newer X68k into an older one or vice versa. it took me three years of scouring YAJ to find the extra RAM for my X68k, and I bought two incorrect modules before I bought the right one.

    Also, the original X68k only supports SASI hard drives, it won't work with SCSI.

    FM Towns Marty 1 & 2: I'm told the difference is just cosmetic. Used as a home console. Might not be compatible with all software; reportedly you may need a floppy drive for some games.
    My FM Towns Marty (I think it's a 2) has a built in floppy drive. Some games use it for saving data (like Zak McKraken). You can also hook up a keyboard and mouse to the Marty. I think the only things you can't do with the Marty is upgrade the RAM and add a hard drive. I have maybe 10 or 15 FM Towns games and they all run on the Marty without any problems, but I guess there may be games out there that require extra memory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhan View Post
    If youre going to get a 68000 you might as well get the beefed up one incase you decide to do something besides play games on it. They all cost out the ass anyways half the time. lol

    plus 680xx assembly is awesometime
    I'd recommend an old *NIX workstation like a NeXT Cube, Sun 3, SGI Iris or even an HP 9000/300 series computer if you want to do meaningful work other than gaming or if you want to play with 68k assembly and don't want to cross compile it on a more modern platform for whatever reason. I also found the Atari ST to be a really easy computer to learn 68k assembly on. It's not a very powerful platform, but the architecture is very simple and easy to learn.

  20. #40
    Flawless Rawkality Flack's Avatar
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    Here's my own two cents on a Commodore 64/128 setup. I'm not the authority on the matter, this is just my opinion.

    Need: Computer, Monitor, Floppy Disk Drive, Joystick.
    Highly Recommended: Fast Load Cartridge, second disk drive.
    Unnecessary: Cassette Drive (Datasette), Modem, Printer.

    Computer: I'll narrow it down to 4 machines: C64 (the original bread box), C64c (the white version), C128, and the portable (luggable) SX-64. The C64 bread box and the C64c are essentially the same machine. All peripherals are interchangable. There are slight internal differences in sound chips and trust me, I have a hard time hearing them. Unless you have both machines side by side you probably wouldn't know and it's even less likely that you'll care. The C128 is 100% backwards compatible, plus it can run 128 software. I believe there are around two dozen C128-specific games, and since there are something like 20,000 C64 games, it's really not a big deal for me. Some people like the shape of the 128 more but I've yet to find a used one with all of its keys (not sure why that was such a problem). Then there's the SX-64 which is good if space is a concern, although you'll be doing everything on a 7" screen.

    Disk Drive: There were a lot of 3rd party disk drives released for the Commodore and I don't think any of them are 100% compatible. You really want a 1541 or a 1571. 1571s are built slightly different and, as a result, don't have the alignment problems the 1541s did. If you plan on copying many disks you'll want two drives, and to hook up two 1571s you flip a dip switch and to hook up two 1541s you have to disassemble the drive and cut solder traces.

    Joystick: Any Atari 2600 compatible stick will work, including a Sega Genesis pad.

    Monitor: Any Composite monitor will work. Commodore monitors have fantastic pictures, but you can run it into your flat screen TV, too.

    Fast Load Cartridge: (Short Version) Commodore drives are slow. Fast Load cartridges make them go about 7x faster. My favorite is Epyx's FastLoad, but there are dozens to choose from. Some of the other models add other features like freezing games, editing memory, etc. All of them add shortened disk commands; for example, instead of having to type LOAD "PAC-MAN" ,8,1, with fastLoad you can just type %P*. Instead of having to type LOAD "$" ,8 and then LIST to get a disk's directory, you can simply type $. Much easier for new people to learn and it'll save you a lot of typing.

    As for the unnecessary stuff, the Commodore Cassette drive is even slower than the floppy drive. Some games came with turbo loaders that sped things along but I don't think any of them were as fast as a simple disk drive with a FastLoad cart. The C64/128 has a cartridge port so between that and a disk drive, a Datasette is pointless. Unless you're really hardcore you won't need a modem or a printer, either.

    Ideal Setup:

    Computer: C64/C64c/C128/SX64
    Drive: 1571, then 1541
    Monitor: Any
    Accessories: Joystick, FastLoad Cart

    ---

    Two additional suggestions for "power users".

    The first is JiffyDOS. JiffyDOS is a DOS replacement for the Commodore that involves burning eproms and soldering and installing chips and all kinds of fun. It's better and faster and probably not worth the money or effort for someone just getting into the Commodore. I know several people here have it installed. I don't and I get by just fine. If you get a Commodore setup and in five years find its OS limiting, you might look into JiffyDOS.

    The other is a 1541 Ultimate, which I do own. It's a "disk drive" that uses SD cards for storage and reads/writes D64 images (the format used by most Commodore emulators). It has definitely replaced the x1541 family of cables as the quickest and easiest way to convert real disks to virtual disk images (and back). It's also awesome for downloading D64 disk images and playing them on a real 64. They're expensive ($200? More?), but I don't know anyone who bought one who regrets it. Again, if you're just getting into the 64 it's overkill, but I can hardly see owning a 64 setup these days without one, especially if you are converting disks back and forth.
    Last edited by Flack; 11-10-2009 at 01:00 PM.

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