SNES vs Megadrive (Genesis)

[Zebbe]

You logic is flawed for the very simple reason that ram has a different context on consoles that it does from computers, etc. If a console cart added some more ram, does that mean it's in a different league altogether? In the TG16 (more so in NES) case, a ram boost on cart would bring it up to speed with the other consoles - not give it an advantage. But in the CD case, ram is temporary "cart space/size".

Anyway, yes - it added a one PCM channel. But the TG16 has practically no system ram. 8k - that's it. This "ram" you mention is actually "cart space". Ouuu... CD 2.0 has 0.5 megabit cart space and CD 3.0 has 2 megabit cart space. It doesn't give it more vram, add any additional processing, give it more video hardware like scaling or rotation, it doesn't give it a brand new audio synth chip (SegaCD PCM sample synth chip), etc. *Not* even close to the SegaCD upgrade. Not even. It gives it ram to make it functional. It needs to hold code/graphic somewhere. It doesn't have rom to do it. Oouuu... it's soo unfair that the TurboCD has equivalent to a 2megabit cart perload. /sarcasm off

It's no different than saying the Neo Geo CD addon is upgrade to the Neo Geo because it has 8megabytes (64megabits) of ram. That's cart space.

Like I said, it's the only system in history were the addon replaced and surpassed the main design, AFAIK. And before half its life span. The TurboCD *is* the main system, with many more CD titles than hucards, and TG16 *is* the subsystem.

The SCD 3.0 card came built into the Turbo Duo (which *is* the main system). So there's really only 1 upgrade card from that. The Arcade card. Again, 1994.... just a ram upgrade. Plain Jane SF2 couldn't even be done on the TurboDuo. At minimum, half the frames would be missing compared to the *other* console ports, which already have less frames than the arcade. Half. Sure, the Arcade card adds 16megabits of ram. No, it can't be used for code. Only graphics/sounds. And 1994-1996, I think it's comparable/competitive to consoles getting bigger rom sizes. 40megabit SSF2 on Genesis, 64megabit Star Ocean (and two others) for SNES/SFC.

Little off topic: But just to show how little the Turbo Duo ram is, later games started going back to "chip" music because they had to cut down on load times. Stopping an audio track, seeking a data track, loading, then starting an audio track - really kills the load times. Playing an RPG where it has to load the town, load the enemies, load whatever... each time. All because even 2megabit cart space wasn't enough. You either sacrifice animation/graphics/etc to pack it into that small amount of ram, and still endure load times. Game developers took a step back and ditched CD audio just to cut down. It's not that I don't like chiptunes, but when you have fantastic CD sound tracks of other games and then devs decide to go back to chiptunes all the way through. Well... it's a little disappointing. Legend of Xanadu 1 & 2, released in 1994 and 1995. Using chiptunes instead of CD audio. Quite a few games didn't even use the extra ADPCM channel because they treated it as slow ram (and it is slow to read the port from) - just to get an extra 64k. So in some cases, even those minimum extra upgrades - still go out the window.

If the TurboDuo "*is*" the main system, then the CDX might as well be the "main system" and any library comparison can add all MS games to the MD library, as the Power Base Converter adds no hardware at all (not even a single PCM channel or RAM. Not even), the same way you call TG16 the "sub-system".

And yeah, if RAM is used for graphics/sounds, it would be the same to me as any other hardware upgrade, no matter what time or when during it's "lifespan" it is released.

But to put it in another way: since the TG16 CD games didn't add any hardware and by that reason count to the TG16 library, Mega-CD games can belong to the MD library too if they don't add any hardware either. I think games such as Popful Mail, Vay, Lunar 1, Final Fight CD and possibly Lords of Thunder (CDA doesn't count as new hardware, right?) should be MD games by your logic then. :P

[nebrazca78]

Nebrazca78
30
Genesis

Well, I have always been a big Genesis fan since I first saw it in action at a Toys R Us. The graphics blew away the NES so much it was a jawdropper. Large sprites and colorful graphics abound. Once we finally got it for Christmas we were ecstatic.

Later we also got a Super Nintendo but it was somewhat of a disappointment. I did like the fact that it had even more colors and the sound was better in certain games but too many games were disappointing. Super Mario Kart is one of the best games of all time and worked great with the SNES controller, however we were also Street Fighter addicts. The SNES controller was totally lame for fighting games so we ended up going with Street Fighter II SCE and a Genesis 6-button.

RPGs were also big in our house. We had Sega CD so were playing Lunar, Snatcher and Shining Force CD. The cinematics of these games blew away standard RPGs in our view so we really didn't get in to SNES RPGs.

Really though for the ultimate 16-bit experience I think you need Genesis, SNES and Sega CD. If you consider the Turbo Grafx to be 16-bit that should be in there too. They all have games that provide unique experiences that are not available on the other systems.

[Kevin Muldoon]

I'm actually tempted to look more into the Sega CD to play some of these games you are all talking about.

I love RPGs but try and stay away from them nowadays because they end up draining so much of your time (the main reason why I have avoided elder scrolls 4 on the ps3).

[Sosage]

Sosage
31
Genesis

Really difficult choice, so I am going to give you the answer I made when the two systems were in stores. Both have really good libraries, but the Genesis at the time was more appealing because it seemed "different". We were coming out of a generation dominated by Nintendo and here, going into this new era, was this new overall marketing campaign coming from out of left field. It was black, it was more mature, it had an "attitude" (how embarrassing now :P) and there were all these arcade games available for it. SNES seemed to be more Nintendo, just larger and prettier. There is nothing wrong with what Nintendo was doing, but here was this new looking thing over here. How exciting!

There is one exception: if I had to make my choice after Street Fighter II was announced for SNES and not the Genesis, I would have gone SNES day 1. The arcade release was a watershed moment and waiting for the Championship Edition release was torture.

Of course, there is also the Sega CD. If I had gone SNES instead of Genesis back in the day, I would have been regretting not having a Genesis (or wound up hating on the Sega CD for no good reason). It seemed so high tech and cutting edge at the time. It's kind of not fair to compare it to the SNES, only because Nintendo never released their CD expansion.

BTW: Snatcher is a great game, but it is definitely not a RPG. It's what we use to call a text adventure game, which has now been morphed into "visual novel/visual graphic adventure"...or whatever.

BTW, BTW: To my knowledge, Nintendo did not release a FIRST PARTY pad with 6 face buttons for Street Fighter II. Sega did. Sega actually pushed those things pretty hard IIRC. This is one of those very small incidents that made Nintendo look like they were out of touch with what their audience wanted.

[Icarus Moonsight]

But we are moving away from the initial point. You are saying that the 6 button controller should be included because it was common place. The controller didn't even come out til 1993 in North America, 4 years after the console had been released.

Included as a factor? Most definitely. Genny 6 buttons were packaged with the Model 3 unit and the Nomad had 6... 6 button pads on the Genny are relatively easy to find too. For the most part, I'm not fond of non-OEM controls outside of a few specialty controls (light guns, flight sticks etc.) or arcade sticks.

Nintendo never made a 6 button face (3 over, 3 under) pad AFAIK, and I can't find a decent quality SNES stick with the 3/3 layout unless it's both obscure and the monies. I'd love a SNES 6 button option, but I can't find one easily (net auctions usually) that is worth the price to me. I have a ASCII Super Advantage and it's layout is so odd (o88o), it only gets used for a few shmups, like Space Megaforce or Axelay. Fighters would be weird to play on one. Conversely...

I have no less than 5 OEM Genny 6 button pads (3 wired and 2 wireless, might have more...) and 1 stick. I also have a Majesco mini 6 button that came with my Model 3, and it's alright. I prefer the wireless though. The d-pad on them is near perfect IMO.

[Kevin Muldoon]

That's something I think a lot of people forget about. Many claim playstation was the first to target older audiences but Sega did it first with the Genesis/Mega-Drive with more arcade/sports titles and less cutesy characters (cutesy is a word you know!)

[Sailorneorune]

Username: Sailorneorune
Age: 25
Console: Genesis
Main Reason: SEGA CHANNEL!

I actually grew up with both consoles (got SNES at launch, Genesis for 12th birthday), but I'm leaning towards the Genesis as I had gotten to experience a wider variety of its titles through that big, ugly, cumbersome, but wonderful other black plastic mushroom with wires hanging out of it. I speak, of course, of the Sega Channel Adapter.


Living in a small town with 2 or 3 video rental stores, all with the same 3 RPGs checked out until what seems to be the end of time for your average 12-year-old, the Sega Channel was a godsend. Playing a fun game like Vectorman before its official release was a big deal to me back then. I can also thank the Sega Channel for indirectly contributing to me pissing away $50 to import Pulseman from an ebay seller in Singapore. And the RPGs! Beyond Oasis! Phantasy Star IV! Shining Force II! All of these at my fingertips, and without having to spend $70 in hard-earned babysitting/chores/dog-walking money sight unseen just for one of these. I could do that whenever I darn well pleased, and with the added advantage of getting something I know I'll LOVE.

Winning an art contest with a lovingly rendered (as lovingly as a bored 6th grader could do anyway) sketch of the Shining Force didn't hurt either.

The games I loved back then are mostly dirt cheap now, which is another nice thing about the Genesis. Try getting Earthbound for $10.

Also, there's the Nomad. Sure, the battery life might extend to 20 minutes on nights when the moon is full and after you've sprayed it with holy water and danced naked around the rechargeable battery pack for six hours, but I can play it at work! There's something special about beating up street punks after a particularly bad phone call.

[tomaitheous]

The Sega CD (as well as 32x) still uses the Genesis hardware along with the hardware it adds. It's not independent. In order to make a Sega CD "console by itself", you'd need to include the entirety of the Genesis hardware. You can't divorce the Sega CD from the console it's dependent on.

I didn't say it *was* independent. I said how close it was from being independent. Which is pretty damn close. Same with the 32x. Matter of fact, someone could rig up the 32x to be a standalone system. You're avoiding specific facts so you can include it as part of the Genesis system, and at the same time TurboCD doesn't count? You're in conflict with yourself.

Nobody had any business using a 3 button Genesis controller for Street Fighter. The 6 button controllers were widespread and commonplace. Four face buttons is definitely not adequate for Street Fighter. They had to alter certain moves in order to make them doable in the SNES versions of the game. That's weak.

The Genesis 6 button controller is extremely common and tons of people had them. Eventually they stopped selling the 3 button controller in stores. Few people had an SNES arcade stick, and the Super Advantage wasn't set up for Street Fighter either, only some third-party ones were. Those are all sticks, though. I've never seen an SNES pad that had six face buttons. One might exist, but if it does it's pretty obscure.

Wow, I didn't know 6 button pads for Genesis were wide spread and common place when the SNES came out. I must have been blind. Sega must have been giving away 6 button pads with every purchase of SF2, as well. I mean, cause they were so common place when SF2 came out. Anyone who didn't already own a 6 button pad for the Genesis as soon as SF2 hit the streets, should have been bitch slapped

If the TurboDuo "*is*" the main system, then the CDX might as well be the "main system" and any library comparison can add all MS games to the MD library, as the Power Base Converter adds no hardware at all (not even a single PCM channel or RAM. Not even), the same way you call TG16 the "sub-system".

Zebbe: tl;dr, right? Right? Did you not understand anything I wrote?

And yeah, if RAM is used for graphics/sounds, it would be the same to me as any other hardware upgrade, no matter what time or when during it's "lifespan" it is released.

OMG. It's c-a-r-t-r-i-d-g-e s-p-a-c-e, man. What can't you understand about that? Did you also not understand the point where the Duo system was actually hindered by the minimal amount ram (even though it was a second memory upgrade), as well? So...by your same logic, any carts higher than 4megs is a hardware upgrade. I mean, it's no different - right? Cause ROM is used for graphics/sound. ......;>_>

It's best if you don't comment on the ram thing if you have no idea what it means in console context... and even more so, CD console context. Not everyone is a coder/techie

But to put it in another way: since the TG16 CD games didn't add any hardware and by that reason count to the TG16 library, Mega-CD games can belong to the MD library too if they don't add any hardware either. I think games such as Popful Mail, Vay, Lunar 1, Final Fight CD and possibly Lords of Thunder (CDA doesn't count as new hardware, right?) should be MD games by your logic then. :P

Uhm... what? I never said the MegaCD didn't add any hardware. Actually, I REALLY quite said the opposite. So... how are they both the same, again? I also really like to know the point where the SegaCD format surpassed the cart format and became the dominate system and there were soo many more CD games than carts, etc. I must have been asleep. Sorry Charlie, but CDX != Duo. Sure, count CDDA if you want. That's perfectly valid. I mean, it comes along with the CD tech. They'd be stupid to ignore it. But does it improve graphics hardware? No. Does it increase or add processing power? No. Does upgrade the sound system?. Yes. Oouupp... it's different system then. Has a sound upgrade. ...."Le sigh"

It's like the that one french classic forum where members don't believe you that an Arcade Card is nothing more than memory upgrade. "How could an 8bit system move such big sprites around? It must have been a hardware upgrade." or "It increases video ram 'cause it's ram upgrade" or "It adds a co-processor".. etc.

[Rob2600]

Later we also got a Super Nintendo but it was somewhat of a disappointment. ... The SNES controller was totally lame for fighting games so we ended up going with Street Fighter II SCE and a Genesis 6-button.

Or you could've simply bought a six-button SNES controller. See Kevin Muldoon's posts above.

[Sosage]

I just want to say, the point about the controllers isn't a major issue. It's kind of dumb actually. Like I said in my other post, this is a potential minor example of Nintendo being out of touch with what the audience needed. Sega had the foresight to provide hardware for one of their biggest third-party titles. Actually, when you think about it, Sega had to release their own six button controller themselves. How are you going to have a platform that is going to officially support six buttons, but your only first party controller is only a three button?

Sorry. Point is. It isn't a huge blow in one direction or the other. It's minor in the grander scheme of the two platforms.

Also:

Foul! That doesn't look like a 6 button on face controller. Unless you count that switch as a button.

[Ed Oscuro]

Nuh-uh. That's how many unique games were released between the US and Europe. That's not even counting Japan at all. Japan got nearly 1500 games alone, so if you add in the games that didn't come out in Japan, it should be well over 1500. And that's not counting Satellaview releases either.

That total does seem correct for worldwide Genesis releases, though, so in terms of which has more, I'd say at a bare minimum that the SNES has at least 700 more titles (an additional amount big enough to be its own large library for another system).

This is true, and I did know that. No excuse.

On the subject of controllers, the Genesis should take advantage of a huge range of Atari port pin-compatible controllers, but the SNES has a couple great sticks with metal casings, like the Hori Fighting Stick for the SFC, which has turbo switches for every button, and an arcade cabinet-style button layout on the face of the stick. It's better than the NES Advantage on account of a better joystick. I imagine it's not as good a stick, especially for twitch games like shooters and so on, as some of the specialized arcade sticks one can buy or modern Hori Real Arcade Pro sticks (if what I hear is true), but damn good for the money.

[j_factor]

Which moves did they alter? I played the arcade game religiously before it came out. The main reason I actually purchased the SNES was because of SF II (I for the SF II bundle).

Off the top of my head, I know they altered Vega's backflip move. In the arcade version (and most other versions) you have to press all three punches simultaneously. It wouldn't be as easy to press X+Y+L.

I think the argument that 6 button controllers were commonplace is weak. And I don't think they were commonplace anyways, certainly not in the UK. All the games I played on the Mega Drive was on the 3 button controller (which I liked).
(snip)
But we are moving away from the initial point. You are saying that the 6 button controller should be included because it was common place. The controller didn't even come out til 1993 in North America, 4 years after the console had been released.

Regardless, they were everywhere. I didn't know anybody who bought Street Fighter for Genesis and didn't buy a 6-button pad. At some point, I remember them not even selling 3-button pads anymore, I went to buy an extra Genesis controller and only 6-button ones were available. And eventually it became the pack-in controller, although they took far too long to do that.

When I got back into the Genesis (a few years after having sold it all off), I went to a local used game store to buy another controller, and they only had 6-button pads. I kind of wanted a 3-button actually, because Golden Axe II doesn't like the 6-button pad and using "mode" has always been a little finicky for me. The dude there said that they get the 6-button pads a lot more often. Nowadays I own multiple Genesis systems -- two Model 1's, a CDX, X'Eye, and a Nomad. All of them were purchased used online, except for the Nomad which I bought off a friend, and all of them came with a 6-button pad. To this day, I don't own a 3-button Genesis controller.

What difference does it make that it was four years after the system was out, anyway? That's when Street Fighter came out, too. If we were talking about the Playstation, would you say that the Dual Shock controller should be excluded from discussion because it took three years to come out?

Are you kidding. There were dozens of SNES joypads with 6 buttons on the face of it.

Sorry, I meant a first-party one.

I didn't say it *was* independent. I said how close it was from being independent. Which is pretty damn close.

I don't see how that's the case. You said a Sega CD would only need a video controller to be a console by itself, but actually it would also need another 68000 CPU, a Z80, a little bit more RAM, and two sound chips.

In any case, I don't see how "closeness" means anything. Either it is or it isn't.

Same with the 32x. Matter of fact, someone could rig up the 32x to be a standalone system.

How could you do that? As far as I'm aware, every 32x game (possibly excepting the 32x CD FMV games, I'm not sure how they work) uses a combination of Genesis and 32x graphics. If you had just the 32x, you'd only see half the game. In fact you can see that with a normal Genesis+32x setup if you disconnect the video crossover cable.

You're avoiding specific facts so you can include it as part of the Genesis system, and at the same time TurboCD doesn't count? You're in conflict with yourself.

I never said Turbo CD doesn't count. Quite the opposite! Turbo CD totally counts, just like Sega CD and all the other add-ons I mentioned. I only brought up Turbo CD because nobody seems to exclude it from Turbo discussions, and yet Sega CD is being excluded here. The only differences between the two are internal hardware details and the fact that NEC chose to phase out hucards in favor of CDs, whereas Sega did not go that route. I don't see how either of those have any bearing. Either add-ons should all count as separate systems, or they should all count as extensions of the systems they add on to. Saying that they are sometimes separate systems and sometimes not, depending on the specifics of the hardware involved and the strategy that the manufacturer had for it, just sounds to me like you're making up arbitrary rules.

Wow, I didn't know 6 button pads for Genesis were wide spread and common place when the SNES came out. I must have been blind. Sega must have been giving away 6 button pads with every purchase of SF2, as well. I mean, cause they were so common place when SF2 came out. Anyone who didn't already own a 6 button pad for the Genesis as soon as SF2 hit the streets, should have been bitch slapped

They were available as soon as Street Fighter was available (actually a bit before), and widely so. Bringing up the three-button controller in regards to Street Fighter is silly -- who the hell actually played it that way? Yeah, it wasn't the standard controller yet at the time, but they were standard-issue for Street Fighter fans.

[Kevin Muldoon]

Foul! That doesn't look like a 6 button on face controller. Unless you count that switch as a button.

haha I didn't even notice that before That's what happens when you google something too quickly!

Off the top of my head, I know they altered Vega's backflip move. In the arcade version (and most other versions) you have to press all three punches simultaneously. It wouldn't be as easy to press X+Y+L.

I assume you are referring to SFII turbo but this isn't true. You had to push all three buttons. Feel free to double check this with any snes move lists out there. The fact is, the SNES games were as close to arcade perfect as you could get at the time. All the moves were included, none were removed. Look back at any of your gaming magazines at the time and I'm 100% sure they will stay the same.

Regardless, they were everywhere. I didn't know anybody who bought Street Fighter for Genesis and didn't buy a 6-button pad. At some point, I remember them not even selling 3-button pads anymore, I went to buy an extra Genesis controller and only 6-button ones were available. And eventually it became the pack-in controller, although they took far too long to do that.

When I got back into the Genesis (a few years after having sold it all off), I went to a local used game store to buy another controller, and they only had 6-button pads. I kind of wanted a 3-button actually, because Golden Axe II doesn't like the 6-button pad and using "mode" has always been a little finicky for me. The dude there said that they get the 6-button pads a lot more often. Nowadays I own multiple Genesis systems -- two Model 1's, a CDX, X'Eye, and a Nomad. All of them were purchased used online, except for the Nomad which I bought off a friend, and all of them came with a 6-button pad. To this day, I don't own a 3-button Genesis controller.

What difference does it make that it was four years after the system was out, anyway? That's when Street Fighter came out, too. If we were talking about the Playstation, would you say that the Dual Shock controller should be excluded from discussion because it took three years to come out?

There was a reason why 3 button controllers for the Genesis became obsolete at the end, it's because 6 button controllers gave gamers and designers more freedom. This was the same reason the PC Engine Duo RX came with a 6 button controller (an upgrade from two buttons).

I won't go as far as saying the 3 button controllers were obsolete at the end but it was more practical to sell them instead of 3 button controllers as it would allow customers to play with more games.

The fact is, a lot of games didn't need many buttons. 3 buttons was more than enough for most genesis games. I'm sure the majority of snes games could have worked with 4 too. You only need to look at how useless the L and R buttons were in mario world to see my point.

With regards to the dual shock, it was an improved controller but it had the same design, same shape, same number of buttons etc.

Anyways, we could go on about this all day. I just think it's unfair to compare the snes controller to the 6 button Genesis controller as Sega only released that to negate the limitations of it's original controller and allow people to play SFII i.e. they had to release the controller in order for people to play the game.

[Icarus Moonsight]

How is it unfair? They were out congruently and became the standard, it's not like we're talking about a last ditch effort or anything. For all that, I'd say that it's unfair to think it's unfair.

[Kevin Muldoon]

it's unfair to think it's unfair

It is hard to argue with that logic!

[Zebbe]

Zebbe: tl;dr, right? Right? Did you not understand anything I wrote?

OMG. It's c-a-r-t-r-i-d-g-e s-p-a-c-e, man. What can't you understand about that? Did you also not understand the point where the Duo system was actually hindered by the minimal amount ram (even though it was a second memory upgrade), as well? So...by your same logic, any carts higher than 4megs is a hardware upgrade. I mean, it's no different - right? Cause ROM is used for graphics/sound. ......;>_>

It's best if you don't comment on the ram thing if you have no idea what it means in console context... and even more so, CD console context. Not everyone is a coder/techie

I misread about the graphics/sound and thought it was as regular VRAM/sound RAM, but now that you explained to me that it was for "cart space", I get it. People usually have to explain anything three or more times to me before I get it, but you only had to do it twice, so you should be glad. Tom, you win this round, but next... !!!

Uhm... what? I never said the MegaCD didn't add any hardware. Actually, I REALLY quite said the opposite. So... how are they both the same, again? I also really like to know the point where the SegaCD format surpassed the cart format and became the dominate system and there were soo many more CD games than carts, etc. I must have been asleep. Sorry Charlie, but CDX != Duo. Sure, count CDDA if you want. That's perfectly valid. I mean, it comes along with the CD tech. They'd be stupid to ignore it. But does it improve graphics hardware? No. Does it increase or add processing power? No. Does upgrade the sound system?. Yes. Oouupp... it's different system then. Has a sound upgrade. ...."Le sigh"

I didn't say you said the Mega-CD didn't add any hardware, but you said the Turbo-CD games count to TG16 library because it didn't add any hardware. So by that logic, any Mega-CD game that doesn't use PCM or scaling/rotation and can be put on cart with just enough ROM can count to the MD library (like the games I mentioned). And by the same 100% not making sense logic, any SNES game that uses co-processors can't be counted to the SNES library.

I don't get why your arguing are built up in two parts, the no hardware update part and the CD taking over card format part. Really, why does the CD have to "take over" the cartridge format to count to the library? The last Mega-CD games were (in the three major markets) released until the same time the MD games were stopped being produced. I think it would have been different if the Mega-CD was dropped not soon after its release and the MD lived on several years. But to be honest the only thing that matters to me is that when you buy a system, you can count anything officially released to it as part of it (as it's intended), whether it's a game with co-processor, CD addon with arcade card, cart/cd-addon with hardware updates, modem, HDD, portable console linking, anything & whatever as long as the original console model can do this with the new equipment. So to me, the Laseractive can count the TG16 and MD libraries, but not the other way around. It's a complicated world we live in .

[Thrillo]

Off the top of my head, I know they altered Vega's backflip move. In the arcade version (and most other versions) you have to press all three punches simultaneously. It wouldn't be as easy to press X+Y+L.

Uh, pressing X+Y+L is dead easy on a SNES pad, but pressing a horizontal line of buttons is nearly impossible to do on a Genny 6 button pad. I would have to move my thumb and wrist in some weird angle to hit all three at the same time.

I never understood why people love having so many buttons on the face when there's plenty of space for other fingers to use them (SNES style). It's much easier to control button timing and pull off moves when you don't have to dance with your thumb. Plus, the SNES had the face buttons arranged in a cross, which REALLY works well for Smash TV: it's practically perfect. Even if the Genny version was new enough to have used the 6 button pad, it still would have felt awkward.

With all this being said, I like the 6 button Genny controller's D-pad far more than the SNES's, which is a shallow, mushy, vague-feeling, half-assed version of the amazing NES one (dozens of systems and 22 years later it's still my favorite!). I dunno why they changed it .

[chrisbid]

Plus, the SNES had the face buttons arranged in a cross, which REALLY works well for Smash TV: it's practically perfect.

oh cmon... perfect? that is severe adjective inflation. the cross is adequate, it gets the job done, but the best setup (save for using two arcade sticks) is to hold two controllers vertically like the NES and Genesis versions of smash tv.

in fact, the NES version of smash tv had the best control of the three... too bad the game had to be crippled to run on the NES

[tom]

the CX40 only has one button

[chrisbid]

the CX40 only has one button

did i miss something?