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Thread: XBOX360 Ban (modded consoles) class action lawsuit - update - I got my stuff back :D

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    But what is the proper legal result of that circumvention? That's the question. Can MS come to your door and take the 360 from you? That might be the logical extension of them destroying the console's functionality. Granted, the thing can still play games so it's probably moot even if some other fringe functions are disabled but I wonder if this went a little further if it would still be within the law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve W View Post
    What kills me is that nobody makes you go online with your 360, it's not necessary. I've never hooked mine up to the internet and have no interest in doing so. I don't like the kind of people I would be playing with (and on my own admission, I'm totally antisocial from working retail for so many years) and these people throwing a fit that they can't go on Xbox Live anymore because they were screwing Microsoft out of money by pirating games are exactly the type of people I don't want to interact with. Maybe with people actually paying for their games perhaps development studios can make a few more bucks and stay in business a little longer instead of dying off at an insane rate like they've been doing for the past few years.
    I am betting that most of these companies that have been closing is the result of the economy and the shitty games they have put out lately. Most of the "good" ones were bought up before they closed.
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    There's no question that piracy can take a toll but, in general, it's really hard to determine exactly how much harm is done because of it. The measurement is less about how much piracy is out there in total and more about how many people who are pirates would actually buy the product if the piracy option weren't available. That's damn near impossible to figure out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skaar View Post
    Where *I* got pissed off was all of the saved games on the hard drive were suddenly "corrupted" - I could not copy them to memory card and move them to another console. This was an issue for about two games where I hadn't moved stuff over. (this wasn't my main console and had moved most things off it ages ago)

    Mainly I was choked I lost my Viva Pinata garden

    Essentially, Microsoft destroyed data on my hard drive. I think this is where the lawsuit is coming from. All of my XBLA titles that were licensed to that console were also disabled and reverted to trials. I think this is where people have a legit beef. Ban the console from your service, fine. But fuck up all of my saved games? Kill all the stuff I actually spent MONEY on because the online service they don't require to run is no longer available? The hell with you, buddy.

    Don't label everyone who's "modded" their Xbox as a pirate. Because I bet there are a lot of people out there getting fucked over on this too. I probably buy more of their software than a significant amount of their customers and I refused to bend over on marked up hardware... and I took a hit for it. Such is life. I've moved on - but I will cheer for anyone willing to stand up and drag them through the mud for what they've done... but I'll do it out of spite, not morality

    The banned console is now making a family who could not have afforded a 360 very happy... along with a spindle of dual layer DVD-R blanks.
    I can't help but take some issue with this. Microsoft has the right to ban you from their service for violating their TOS, but destruction of property is another matter.

    If these guys want us to consider digital property the same as physical property when they're selling us the stuff, then they should be prepared to be held accountable for what basically amounts to vandalism, and in the case of the legitimately purchased XBLA titles, possibly theft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berserker View Post
    I can't help but take some issue with this. Microsoft has the right to ban you from their service for violating their TOS, but destruction of property is another matter.

    If these guys want us to consider digital property the same as physical property when they're selling us the stuff, then they should be prepared to be held accountable for what basically amounts to vandalism, and in the case of the legitimately purchased XBLA titles, possibly theft.
    All of my XBLA titles were bought legit, either with points bought through CC or retail points cards. I'm all cool with them banning my console for the DVDROM hack, sure. But for not paying the premium for a hard drive they're overcharging for? OEM cost on a 120GB 2.5" HD is like < $50, why the fuck would I pay $130 for the same thing? It's like that 512MB memory card. Seriously. Drop the price based on current market rates for memory, assholes.

    I summon the power of kupomogli here and point out with the PS3 I have NO issue just popping in a larger HD. That being said, I keep the 60GB in there because I never use the damn PS3 anyway.

    It's probably the rum talking anyway

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berserker View Post
    I can't help but take some issue with this. Microsoft has the right to ban you from their service for violating their TOS, but destruction of property is another matter.

    If these guys want us to consider digital property the same as physical property when they're selling us the stuff, then they should be prepared to be held accountable for what basically amounts to vandalism, and in the case of the legitimately purchased XBLA titles, possibly theft.
    Couldn't agree more. Ban whoever you want, but don't mess with their stuff. That crosses a line. Reminds me of a Sony trojan of days past...


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    If you don't want to pay the prices Microsoft has set - then don't. Speak with your wallet. The fact that people are using illegal hard drives just shows Microsoft that people want to play their 360.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skaar View Post
    All of my XBLA titles were bought legit, either with points bought through CC or retail points cards.
    So what did MS say when you called to ask them about it?

    If MS is smart they will say that you just need to provide proof that you bought the games and they will send them to your new account.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyTheTiger View Post
    There's no question that piracy can take a toll but, in general, it's really hard to determine exactly how much harm is done because of it. The measurement is less about how much piracy is out there in total and more about how many people who are pirates would actually buy the product if the piracy option weren't available. That's damn near impossible to figure out.
    That's probably the dumbest argument I've ever heard about piracy. There is no requirement under the law to do a survey and find out who would or wouldn't have bought something anyway if it wasn't for the illegal activity. It's like saying we shouldn't punish arson just because a really crappy trailer park burned down or car theft because the owner was planning on buying a new car anyway in a few months. Everyone who modded their consoles knew they were violating Microsoft's terms of service and did it anyway. As such, they are stuck with the consequences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    That's probably the dumbest argument I've ever heard about piracy. There is no requirement under the law to do a survey and find out who would or wouldn't have bought something anyway if it wasn't for the illegal activity. It's like saying we shouldn't punish arson just because a really crappy trailer park burned down or car theft because the owner was planning on buying a new car anyway in a few months. Everyone who modded their consoles knew they were violating Microsoft's terms of service and did it anyway. As such, they are stuck with the consequences.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    That's probably the dumbest argument I've ever heard about piracy. There is no requirement under the law to do a survey and find out who would or wouldn't have bought something anyway if it wasn't for the illegal activity. It's like saying we shouldn't punish arson just because a really crappy trailer park burned down or car theft because the owner was planning on buying a new car anyway in a few months. Everyone who modded their consoles knew they were violating Microsoft's terms of service and did it anyway. As such, they are stuck with the consequences.
    Don't get your panties in a bunch. I was stating a fact about the measurement of loss, not making an argument that piracy is no big deal or that it shouldn't be aggressively challenged by publishers. I was saying, if you would actually read what I wrote, that the actual numbers require a lot of guesswork. You going to argue that with me?

    EDIT: This is not about people getting banned from Live. That is the consequence, fine. The question is whether punitive action beyond that is legitimate action. You can keep saying "they violated the TOS and so have to live with the consequences" but, logically speaking, those consequences need to be reasonable. The location of that line is debatable at best. Microsoft may be allowed to screw you over but how much can they screw you over?
    Last edited by TonyTheTiger; 11-20-2009 at 10:42 AM.

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    I'm really confused here about the arguement with the XBLA games. It doesn't sound like your account is banned, JUST the modded xbox. You can put your account with all the points on a new system and redownload the games.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skaar View Post
    I was banned on one of my consoles. I'd modded it a year or so ago and put a WD 160GB 2.5 SATA drive in there, flashed to look like a 120GB Microsoft official drive. I found out later that I didn't need to modify the firmware on the DVDROM to do it, but I assumed I did anyway.

    This particular system never booted a burned game. It ran nothing but originals. It was also banned on The End Day.

    By modifying my console (ie upgrading the hard drive myself) I violated the TOS and my console was banned from Live. Fair enough, I'll take the hit.

    Where *I* got pissed off was all of the saved games on the hard drive were suddenly "corrupted" - I could not copy them to memory card and move them to another console. This was an issue for about two games where I hadn't moved stuff over. (this wasn't my main console and had moved most things off it ages ago)

    Mainly I was choked I lost my Viva Pinata garden

    Essentially, Microsoft destroyed data on my hard drive. I think this is where the lawsuit is coming from. All of my XBLA titles that were licensed to that console were also disabled and reverted to trials. I think this is where people have a legit beef. Ban the console from your service, fine. But fuck up all of my saved games? Kill all the stuff I actually spent MONEY on because the online service they don't require to run is no longer available? The hell with you, buddy.

    Don't label everyone who's "modded" their Xbox as a pirate. Because I bet there are a lot of people out there getting fucked over on this too. I probably buy more of their software than a significant amount of their customers and I refused to bend over on marked up hardware... and I took a hit for it. Such is life. I've moved on - but I will cheer for anyone willing to stand up and drag them through the mud for what they've done... but I'll do it out of spite, not morality

    The banned console is now making a family who could not have afforded a 360 very happy... along with a spindle of dual layer DVD-R blanks.
    That kind of punitive punishment by MS doesn't surprise me in the least.

    We're talking about a company that doesn't want you playing -

    Legitimately purchased digital download games,
    residing on a legitimate Microsoft hard drive,
    attached to a legitimately purchased console,
    with your paid Gold XBL Membership on it

    JUST because a user has already transferred their "license" ONE TIME in a 365 day period.

    I personally broke ZERO copyright laws and I had to wait a YEAR to play more than half the games on my HDD when my last 360 crapped out on me because I didn't want to use their repair services and opted to buy a new Arcade Jasper HDMI unit.

    I don't typically like to view/refer to any company as a sentient entity as people are prone to do, but it should be no secret to anybody that Microsoft is one heartless bitch when it comes to kicking people when they're down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skaar View Post
    Essentially, Microsoft destroyed data on my hard drive. I think this is where the lawsuit is coming from. All of my XBLA titles that were licensed to that console were also disabled and reverted to trials.
    Quote Originally Posted by s1lence View Post
    I'm really confused here about the arguement with the XBLA games. It doesn't sound like your account is banned, JUST the modded xbox. You can put your account with all the points on a new system and redownload the games.
    Skaar. It sucks, but why not just buy another 360 and port all your stuff over. Then you could still use your harddrive as long as you don't mod your new 360 I'm guessing.
    Everything in the above post is opinion unless stated otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Porksta View Post
    The thing is, the consoles work fine. They just can't go online.
    Unfortunately that's not true. In addition to not being able to play legitimately bought DLC, As mentioned above they alter the 360 in a number of ways.

    The Windows Media Server integration is disabled (although video library streaming is not) The local data on the hard drive is forceably corrupted, including the gamer profile and your hard drive installed games. Loading games on the hard drive is disabled completely. So, that essentially makes the large hard drive useless on that 360.

    You can move that hard drive to another 360.. however, the catch is once you remove it from the banned one, it further neuters that 360 as a media player since all the DRM is on the hard drive and it can no longer play any USB loaded xvids, etc. So essentially that particular hard drive becomes a dongle tethered to your banned 360 if you want to play any media on it.

    About the only thing you can do with it is play games, but once you save a game on it.. it's there to stay and can never leave

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pente View Post
    Unfortunately that's not true. In addition to not being able to play legitimately bought DLC, As mentioned above they alter the 360 in a number of ways.

    The Windows Media Server integration is disabled (although video library streaming is not) The local data on the hard drive is forceably corrupted, including the gamer profile and your hard drive installed games. Loading games on the hard drive is disabled completely. So, that essentially makes the large hard drive useless on that 360.

    You can move that hard drive to another 360.. however, the catch is once you remove it from the banned one, it further neuters that 360 as a media player since all the DRM is on the hard drive and it can no longer play any USB loaded xvids, etc. So essentially that particular hard drive becomes a dongle tethered to your banned 360 if you want to play any media on it.

    About the only thing you can do with it is play games, but once you save a game on it.. it's there to stay and can never leave
    Oh well, I have no remorse for people that bypass rules because they think they are better than everyone else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Porksta View Post
    Oh well, I have no remorse for people that bypass rules because they think they are better than everyone else.
    At some point, punishment can go too far and actually become illegal (or at least tortious) in the process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyTheTiger View Post
    At some point, punishment can go too far and actually become illegal (or at least tortious) in the process.
    If you don't break the rules you have nothing to fear. The only ones who fear/condemn punishment are the ones violating the rules.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Porksta View Post
    If you don't break the rules you have nothing to fear. The only ones who fear/condemn punishment are the ones violating the rules.
    That's a nice soundbyte but it fails for the simple fact that in all legal matters there are limits imposed by law. No court ever OKs a law on the grounds that "if you don't break it you have nothing to fear." In the criminal realm, the Constitution sets the limits. With something like contracts, there are rules regulating whether the terms were unconscionable among other things.

    Those are just examples but the point is that there's never a time where it's ok for an unjust rule to stand simply because "if you don't break it, you have nothing to fear." Could Microsoft come and take the 360 from the person? Should the company be allowed to do that? If we believe we have some personal private interest in the property (as in, we're not simply borrowing it) then no.
    Last edited by TonyTheTiger; 11-20-2009 at 10:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyTheTiger View Post
    That's a nice soundbyte but it fails for the simple fact that in all legal matters there are limits imposed by law. No court ever OKs a law on the grounds that "if you don't break it you have nothing to fear." In the criminal realm, the Constitution sets the limits. With something like contracts, there are rules regulating whether the terms were unconscionable among other things. Could Microsoft come and take the 360 from the person? Should the company be allowed to do that?
    Microsoft should not take away modded 360s from people. The government should. It is illegal to own a device used to play stolen games.
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