"Outgrowing" the JRPG

[NayusDante]

Ever since I rented Final Fantasy and spent hours fighting imps to level up before taking on Garland, I've loved the JRPG format. FF6 and Chrono Trigger really marked the high point for me, having that great story and gameplay balance. In a time where game stories were comic-book morality tales where the hero beats the bad guy, JRPGs were (comparatively) complex character stories.

It came to my attention about a year ago that I haven't actually finished a JRPG for quite some time, and I've started to realize why. I've outgrown the JRPG.

Let me explain this a bit... I still love the format, and I'm poised to tackle a huge JRPG backlog. Even if I feel like I've outgrown the story elements, the gameplay is more appealing to me now than ever. What bothers me is that these stories seem so adamantly targeted to the younger teenage mindset. Chrono Trigger isn't the literary masterpiece I thought it was when I was eight. I just finished Final Fantasy X, and I haven't thought any of the characters were "cool" since I was fourteen. I was REALLY looking forward to Blue Dragon, but honestly, I put it down after about an hour.

That said, I have two questions to ask:

1. Do you feel like you've "outgrown" a genre? What was it, and what have you "moved on" to?
2. What are some recommendations for more "mature" JRPGs? (not necessarily violent or inappropriate, just more age-relevant)

[Dangerboy]

The problem with JRPGS isn't that I've outgrown them, it's that they've refused to grow up. In fact, Square has seemed dead on to run their own legacy into the ground. Final Fantasy started dropping off the earth with 7, and the rest of their library is uninspired. It's the same thing.

The problem is that each year the JRPG gets more and more linear. Compare the straight line and lack of exploration that's FFX, and up, and then compare it to say, FF6. No airship flying, no real randomly walking into over-powered enemies (thus giving you fuel to grind), the constant loss of control over an actual party, etc.

Now look at the Western RPGs - Fallout 3, Oblivion, Mass Effect - they all contain that old school feel, but in full 3D. I would purposely run in random directions in Fallout 3 just to see what killer peeps were hiding. I spent large sections of time in Mass Effect trying to figure out my favorite Weapon Attachments (Fire + Poison? Yes Please), and all three had amazing story lines.

Having to go back and play a lot of the classic RPGs on PlayStation for game-rave.com, it's becoming obvious that they aren't aging well.

Japan needs to just take a step back from the safe and sure, and try something actually new.

[Manhattan Sports Club]

The best thing to do is to take the storylines with a grain of salt. I understand what you mean when you say that they don't seem as powerful when you're older. There was a member of the Sega16 forums who commented that alot of RPG stories are mediocre when compared to real films and novels -- they're just more interactive and involving, and often times that is true, though Xenogears' storyline is said to have a considerably more 'serious' tone to it than most FF games usually do.

But back to my point, sometimes it is best to approach the story with little expectation and not take it too seriously. Look at it realistically. You can develop your own impression of it with what comes to you as you play, and you can also view it with a childlike sense of playfulness, or even like you would a movie you enjoy that's campy and simple but fun nonetheless, unless the story proves itself to be otherwise after pondering it at the end, which most don't.

[Jorpho]

As I've mentioned before, as I grow older, I begin to wonder just how much like real life JRPGs really are.

Sometimes in a badly-written RPG, as in life, success can only come if you happen to talk to the right random NPC who only shows up at a certain place and a certain time and will only talk to you if you happen to be wearing the right bauble from the right superfluous side quest - only there no way of knowing in advance who that NPC is, where he's going to be, or what bauble you need, or which sidequests you should be doing. And if you happen to miss that opportunity, it's gone forever, and you're back to bashing on the same old enemies you've bashed countless times before, and running away from the occasional random encounter with something twenty levels too high for you to even approach without getting completely flattened.

It's eerie.

[TonyTheTiger]

Generally speaking, most video games, not just RPGs (Japanese or otherwise), tend to be "kill the bad guy, save the world, get the girl" stories at heart. Probably because in a video game, where the player actually has to participate, that's the most obvious way to integrate actual combat and the like. The player can't really do a whole lot in a video game version of Pride and Prejudice.

This is all well and good but the problem then is it becomes a race to the bottom. Since the core plot generally remains the same and only the details offer any variety, every RPG then seems to try to compete by jacking "story element X" or "character archetype Y" and just rearranges everything into something not wholly derivative but still standard fare. So the middling RPGs, despite not being bad by any means, don't feel "worth it" since we've seen what they have to offer from the cream of the crop, games that did the same thing just more successfully. So out of 100 games, it doesn't feel all that necessary to touch anything that isn't in the top 10%. The fact that RPGs require a significant time investment only exacerbates the problem.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the stories. That's possibly because I haven't matured past the age of 13 but, ignoring that for a moment, I like the standard comic book stylings. As long as the plot doesn't do anything that insults my intelligence I'm fine with it. Then again, even if it does insult my intelligence I've dealt with it.

If there is something that turns me off to JRPGs it has nothing to do with the stories. It has to do with the unnecessary padding a lot of them have. The infamous fetch quest. "I would take you to see the king but I lost my royal crest in the monster infested cave to the south. Go get it for me." "I would take you across the ocean but my sail was stolen. Go get it for me." 16 and 32 bit RPGs were notorious for this. Same thing with level progression. Did I mention how much I don't like random battles? I never did. I put up with it back in the day because it was just how things were but I never once enjoyed being able to see the next town on screen and knowing that I'll get into at least two fights before I actually made it there.

One of the primary reasons I love Chrono Trigger so much is because it was one of the few games at the time that didn't do this shit. It had something that all RPGs should have. It had respect for the player's time. These 60 hour epics are really 30-40 hour games with a lot of filler. I don't mind if a game is long. Just make sure I feel like I'm accomplishing something. "Go get my royal seal" doesn't advance the story. It doesn't get me any closer to saving the world. All it does is stop me from seeing the king for an hour.

So, yes, I can sympathize but for a different reason. I haven't outgrown any particular genre but I have less patience these days for RPGs that move at a snail's pace. If I can only afford to play for a half hour I want to feel like I actually did something during that half hour. I don't want to spend it in some dungeon that I know is only there to delay my progress and fill out the world map.

[Aussie2B]

For a genre that's so often played for the stories, I find it odd that the vast majority have plots that are predictable and unengaging. When I think of the best stories I've ever encountered in video games, none are RPGs.

Maybe you've not outgrown RPGs but just need to reassess your reasons for playing them. If the gameplay itself is appealing to you, then do what I do and play RPGs for the exploration and battling and say to hell with plot, so if you end up becoming interested in the story, consider it a bonus. Target the games in which the developers put gameplay considerations in the forefront, perhaps even before plot. That's why I love the Star Ocean and Valkyrie Profile series. I enjoy a plain traditional, turn-based RPG now and then, but I don't think I'd like the genre nearly as much if they all played like that.

I gotta admit, though, the focus on children does irritate even me sometimes, when an "old man" is 27 or a 23-year-old woman is an "old hag". Gimme a break. And even with my extensive exposure to RPGs, it's hard for me to come up with many exceptions. I guess, again, Valkyrie Profile isn't a bad choice since almost everyone in the first game is above 20, but even then you got an "old" schoolmarm that's only around 35 I think.

Oh well, it is how it is. My biggest problem with RPGs is that I just don't have enough time for them. I still want to play them as if I was a kid, taking my time and doing every last little thing, but they can drag out for months with that approach since I'll often only play for a couple hours a week if that.

[FantasiaWHT]

Lost Odyssey started out (and had through most of it) a really great, deep, mature story line that I enjoyed. Then for about the last 1/3 of it it totally devolved into complete cliches. But the story sequences (when Kai dreams/remembers things that have happened over the last 1,000 years of his life) are really good. They all focus around the theme of life and death, and really give you an idea what it would be like to be someone who can't die.

[FantasiaWHT]

Valkyrie Profile is also an excellent suggestion

[Arkhan]

Whats funny is the story writers for these games are all obviously >20 years old.

Its a culture difference really. The western RPGs of the 80s/early 90s were all more adult-oriented story wise. Everything was and still is more "mature". Its all serious, its all adults running around yelling and or swearing

Ultima for example has always had old dudes running around. Elder Scrolls has never been very kid-oriented..

and then...

Japanese stories have always been what they still are today, which is a bit more sensitive/dramatic/tear jerky/lovey dovey and crap.

Im 21 and still watch sailor moon. Suffice to say, kiddy teenager stories in RPGs are perfectly good in my book.

screw growing up.

[Raedon]

That said, I have two questions to ask:

1. Do you feel like you've "outgrown" a genre? What was it, and what have you "moved on" to?
2. What are some recommendations for more "mature" JRPGs? (not necessarily violent or inappropriate, just more age-relevant)

1) No ... Every game style I've grown a fondness for I've kept it. I'm 36 years old and I'll still play games like Dig Dug like I did back in the day. Platform games? love them. JRPG? D&D? Action RPG? MMORPG? There are games I will not play because of the quality or battle system but the genre itself doesn't fall out of favor.

Gels - they are cute, colored things. They might even be a bit childish. But they are the ENEMY! How do I know this? Because they are covered in slime ... and that's just gross.

2) When I think mature RPG I just keep coming back to the MMORPG and the hardcore gamer. Being good at a class in a game like Everquest is not easy. In WoW you can solo to 80 but that does NOT make you a great rogue, warrior, priest, or whatever. Gamers notice if you are a great RPG gamer inside an MMO world. Maybe this is the type of RPG experience you crave? If not then mature could just mean giant floppy titties, leather goddesses, and fart jokes wrapped up with EXP and ATK points. IDK where to point you for THAT kind of silliness.

[Press_Start]

The main driving force in JRPG are stories and one painful aspect popping up from the latest crop is developers are spending less and less on telling an epic tale. Lunar Knights, Super Robot Taisen OG Saga: Endless Frontier, and Crimson Gem Saga are good games with solid mechanics but each has a story that feels too short or incomplete. I believe the reason the older RPGs are better was the great attention to character development and story progression as a whole. Sorta fleshing out their personalities, giving them depth. Suikoden 1 and 2 are the perfect example of what I'm talking about.

[hbkprm]

ill never outgrow the jrpg ever!

[blue lander]

I noticed the same thing. I just can't buy the "12 year old has to save the world from evil" schtick anymore. I still enjoy the gameplay, though.

[NayusDante]

Lost Odyssey might be what I'm looking for, and it's definitely on my Christmas list. Where do the other current SE-related RPGs stand (Last Remnant, Infinite Undiscovery...)? I haven't really considered the other developers much, but Eternal Sonata, Star Ocean, and the like strike me as more of the same (would love to be wrong, though).

Here's the stack on my desk:
-Xenogears
-Xenosaga Ep1
-Final Fantasy IX (I got to the end, need to replay though)
-Rogue Galaxy
-Final Fantasy XII
-Dragon Quest VIII
-.hack//INFECTION

Given that I just stepped off of FFX, which of these would be the most satisfying to move onto next, given what I've said?

[hbkprm]

blue dragon is a must

[TonyTheTiger]

I'd recommend FFXII. The game is more about experiencing the world itself rather than a complex plot. The actual story is pretty simple. No twists, no romance. I found it a breath of fresh air.

[Ricochet]

Maybe it's the American in me, but to me "story" is a couple pegs down the list of what I look for in an RPG. I will agree that the Japanese generally make better RPGs than us, in terms of accessibility and aesthetic, but in the end what I love about the genre is the mechanics of the gameplay itself, and less about the increasingly cartoonish characters that've made their way into the genre.

There's something to be said about the recent re-surgence of dungeon crawlers that get back to their Wizardry roots. I don't own any modern consoles, so I haven't been able to try out the likes of Etryian Odyssey, but I have been having a grand old time slugging away at Shining In The Darkness and it's given me something of an epiphany about that wonderful balance of minimalism and gameplay.

[Soviet Conscript]

I noticed the same thing. I just can't buy the "12 year old has to save the world from evil" schtick anymore. I still enjoy the gameplay, though.

same here. it seems mearly cosmetic but its just grown tiresome.

as ark said, when you look at alot of western rpg's your usually playing an older individual at least in thier 20's as opposed to jrpgs where everyone is at thier oldest a teen. being 28 myself i just connect better with the older characters and plot elements.

also tend to get tired of the same "evil empire and religion is bad" theme. not that you don't see this everywhere.

[exit]

The Shin Megami Tensei games are generally darker, more mature with deep stories when compared to other RPGs. I gave up on the JRPG years ago and the Shin Megami Tensei series are really the only RPGs I can play anymore that can actually hold my attention.

[blue lander]

same here. it seems mearly cosmetic but its just grown tiresome.

as ark said, when you look at alot of western rpg's your usually playing an older individual at least in thier 20's as opposed to jrpgs where everyone is at thier oldest a teen. being 28 myself i just connect better with the older characters and plot elements.

also tend to get tired of the same "evil empire and religion is bad" theme. not that you don't see this everywhere.

Yeah, it doesn't seem like it'd be a big deal, but every time I pop in a JRPG and it starts with some little kid's village being attacked by an evil empire/church/aliens, I just sigh. And it's not just that the plot is about a 12 year, it's written for a 12 year old audience too. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just hard for me to relate to it anymore.

One of these days I'm going to go back and replay some of my favorite JRPGs like Final Fantasy VI and Grandia II to see if they still appeal to me as much as they did back then.