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Thread: "Outgrowing" the JRPG

  1. #21
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    I find that i dislike a whole lot of the genre, but I think it's unfair to blame the genre as a whole. The real problem is that only "sure thing" titles are localized into a language I can read. Everything has to be as close to Final Fantasy as possible or it stays in Japan.

    There are tons of funny RPGs, modern day RPGs, horror RPGs, etc. 90% of what we get is generic fantasy (and if I WANT that, I will play Dragon Quest, because it always does it best!), with characters and settings that are just so over-designed that it just all looks like noise.

    Thankfully we are pretty solidly getting Megaten games now. Too bad it took us a couple dozen before that started 8/ Even if they have standard fantasy creatures, it's normally presented in an interesting setting, and does interesting things with them (ie contact instead of fighting, overcoming boss creatures to trigger personal growth in characters, so on). Monsters have invaded the school! Grab a a mop and a stolen gun and kick their asses (or dance and make them laugh, whichever).

    Current-gen RPGs I have enjoyed to some degree:

    Blue Dragon is alright. It's a tad generic, but at least the save the world story has personal vendettas involved for the characters for the most part.

    Lost Odyssey is a bit better overall, I don't care much for it's browngrey overdesigned environments very much but the storyline at least attemps creativity, and again, personal reasons for stopping the final boss instead of just "because you were told to do so". Also this is a game where you can become very damn powerful and it's pretty fun to be absorbing damage instead of taking it from most enemies.

    Adventures to Go for the PSP is pretty fun, it's terribly generic in many ways, but the dialog is pretty funny (immature, probably not present in the original version, but funny) and the entire setup of the adventuring concept is pretty well a giant parody.

    Haven't got too far into Operation Darkness, it's pretty slow, but it's one of those games i thought we'd never get in a million years so I'm happy that we did and voted with my dollar about it too. WWII tactical RPG with animu girls and zombies and shit, hey why not.

    Infinate Undiscovery is pretty much everything I dislike about RPGs put together. I hate nearly every single party member in that game so very much god damn it RPGs why do you keep having kids as party members and bitchy women and complete idiot doormat protagonists? At least he eventually sort of gets better but DAMN I hate those people.

    well this was quite a rant I think i'm done now. tl;dr: there are good ones still, just they don't come to america / get advertised anywhere / are Megaten and Dragon Quest.

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    You sure it's the fact you've outgrown it, and not any sort of gaming apathy? Sometimes this happens to me, where I can't play a certain game... but it's always just a phase.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NayusDante View Post
    Lost Odyssey might be what I'm looking for, and it's definitely on my Christmas list. Where do the other current SE-related RPGs stand (Last Remnant, Infinite Undiscovery...)? I haven't really considered the other developers much, but Eternal Sonata, Star Ocean, and the like strike me as more of the same (would love to be wrong, though).

    Here's the stack on my desk:
    -Xenogears
    -Xenosaga Ep1
    -Final Fantasy IX (I got to the end, need to replay though)
    -Rogue Galaxy
    -Final Fantasy XII
    -Dragon Quest VIII
    -.hack//INFECTION

    Given that I just stepped off of FFX, which of these would be the most satisfying to move onto next, given what I've said?
    Eternal Sonata would have been the greatest JRPG on the 360 if it wasn't so darn linear. The story is a little cliche, but they find an interesting way to tell it. It's also one of the few 360 games that I've played for more than a week without quitting in total disgust and boredom.

    I only played a bit of Infinite Undiscovery but I couldn't get the hang of the battle engine (you control two characters in tandem) and the story doesn't start off promising at all.

    Xenogears, I hated it. Mostly it just doesn't feel playtested at all. The storyline is almost incomprehensible if you don't play the entire game in one sitting. There are certain design ideas that are just so mind-blowing stupid that they pretty much break the game (like having platforming elements in an RPG where you can get into random battles in mid-jump).

    Xenosaga 1 is an anime disguising itself as a game. Don't be fooled. You'll spend more time w/ the controller resting on your lap than you will w/ it in your hands.

    Dragon Quest 8 is a game that I really enjoyed, and it doesn't star a bunch of teenagers either. There is some real emotion to the characters and how they interact. I'd suggest this one if you have to choose from that pile.

    Personally, I think JRPGs have been going downhill since the PS2 era, tho even there there was some great games (Shadow Hearts, for instance), but part of my problem is that developers got so into making 3D landscapes that they decided they just couldn't figure out a good way to connect all the forests and towns and dungeons so they made the overhead map into just points that you click on. I think this actually started on the PS1 but got a lot more prevalent on the PS2. It really destroys the feelings of wanderlust that older games engendered.
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    I've recently discovered that I can't play JRPGs anymore, either. When I was much youger, I'd often load up The Bard's Tale on my Apple IIc and attempt to play it, but at that age I never had the patience to actually succeed at it. It seemed more like work to draw maps and manage my characters than anything else. Now that I'm older, nothing seems more exciting to me than a dungeon crawler. Oddly enough, dungeon crawlers such as Wizardry are now almost exclusively designed by Japanese developers, so in order to find RPGs I want to play I'm still looking through a catalog of Japanese games. I played through The Dark Spire on my DS a while ago and absolutely loved it, and I'm currently making my way through Etrian Odyssey II. The DS has been a great platform for me lately. I just read today that Etrian Odyssey III had been announced in Famitsu, and I'm already eagerly anticipating Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey. Because no one else seems to be developing and/or publishing first-person dungeon crawlers in America these days, I've become a huge fan of Atlus for their apparent devotion to the genre.

    Also, Nethack has always been a good standby for when I can't find a decent RPG to play. Maybe it doesn't have any kind of story to speak of, but in terms of gameplay it has quite a bit of depth.

    When it comes to platformers or action games, I don't think I've outgrown them. I think they've outgrown me. I love playing through Megaman 2, a game I can beat in an hour or so, but I hate all of the modern games with achievements, items you can overlook, secrets, and endings which are only viewable after completing every "optional" challenge included in the game. They aren't really optional challenges if you have this horrible feeling you haven't really beaten the game if you don't complete them. I usually try to complete the extra challenges on my first playthrough, get frustrated with them 2/3 of the way through, and give up in order to play a different game that doesn't ask so much of me. I shouldn't feel the need to access a walkthrough every time I play a game, ESPECIALLY a platformer or an action game. If I'm playing a game like that, it's specifically because I'm tired of all of the complicated things I have to deal with in real life, and I just want to do something simple like jump on monsters or shoot robots. I usually only have an hour or two to play games anymore, and I want a complete experience in those few hours I have. Movies only last two hours, and a lot of them are awesome and can be re-watched dozens of times. Why can't video games be the same way anymore? When I see a label that says "over 50 hours of gameplay!" on a game that isn't an RPG these days, usually that's a sign that I'm never going to have any fun playing it. They might as well put a label on the game that says "this game is horribly tedious!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehusephat View Post
    I've recently discovered that I can't play JRPGs anymore, either. When I was much youger, I'd often load up The Bard's Tale on my Apple IIc and attempt to play it, but at that age I never had the patience to actually succeed at it. It seemed more like work to draw maps and manage my characters than anything else. Now that I'm older, nothing seems more exciting to me than a dungeon crawler. Oddly enough, dungeon crawlers such as Wizardry are now almost exclusively designed by Japanese developers, so in order to find RPGs I want to play I'm still looking through a catalog of Japanese games. I played through The Dark Spire on my DS a while ago and absolutely loved it, and I'm currently making my way through Etrian Odyssey II. The DS has been a great platform for me lately. I just read today that Etrian Odyssey III had been announced in Famitsu, and I'm already eagerly anticipating Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey. Because no one else seems to be developing and/or publishing first-person dungeon crawlers in America these days, I've become a huge fan of Atlus for their apparent devotion to the genre.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NayusDante View Post
    Here's the stack on my desk:
    -Rogue Galaxy
    FYI: Rogue Galaxy is probably the most juvenile JRPG I've played in years. Exhibit A:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhJfg9IxpI8

    (vomit)
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    Quote Originally Posted by heybtbm View Post
    FYI: Rogue Galaxy is probably the most juvenile JRPG I've played in years. Exhibit A:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhJfg9IxpI8

    (vomit)
    O_O

    I might have to save that one to do on my Livestream when I get some friends to commentate. This could be funny. I honestly thought it might be GOOD, but wow... that's the complete opposite of what I expected...

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    Quote Originally Posted by NayusDante View Post


    I might have to save that one to do on my Livestream when I get some friends to commentate. This could be funny. I honestly thought it might be GOOD, but wow... that's the complete opposite of what I expected...
    I expected better from Level 5 since their previous game (DQVIII) was a masterpiece. Rogue Galaxy has excellent music and graphics, a so-so battle system, and chalkboard screeching dialog/plot. Play at your own risk.
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    The "old fashioned" Western RPG has grown on me a little, but there's nothing that says JRPGs have to be dumb or easy. Vagrant Saga does have a maze map, but beyond that it's very involving - almost more than it has business being.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NayusDante View Post
    Here's the stack on my desk:
    -Xenogears
    -Xenosaga Ep1
    -Final Fantasy IX (I got to the end, need to replay though)
    -Rogue Galaxy
    -Final Fantasy XII
    -Dragon Quest VIII
    -.hack//INFECTION

    Given that I just stepped off of FFX, which of these would be the most satisfying to move onto next, given what I've said?
    Coming from FF10 I'd say any game you've listed seems like a good choice. FF10 is nothing more than switch characters then attack and repeat an endless amount of times. Every area is point a to point b. Terrible game. Blitzball is good though, one redeeming quality so keep your save file and do nothing but play Blitzball next time you play the game.

    You already know what you're getting with FF9. A terrible storyline with gameplay that pretty much makes up for it.

    Anyways, Xenosaga is the one with the best story of the bunch. Like mobiusclimber stated, you'll be watching storyline most of the time. Don't let this seem like a bad thing though. Xenosaga has one of the best storylines to an RPG. The level design on the game is fairly simple and has a lot of secrets and stuff. The battle system is the killer of the game though. The game has 90% storyline 10% everything else, then once you get to the last dungeon you'll be in battle the majority of the time as it's the longest dungeon in the game. It wouldn't matter if the game has a good battle system, but it doesn't, the battle system is one of the worst out there.

    Xenogears has a great storyline. Platforming RPG and it does a great job at the battle system, great level design, amazing storyline, and also a few sidequests to complete on the second disc. The only problem with this game is that the second disc has three parts that are nearly an hour of nothing more than text and in game visuals where you have little control over. Even during that portion the storyline is still good, you'll just need to be prepared for almost nothing but story.

    The gameplay to Xenogears is sort of Legend of Legaia lite. It's gameplay has a similar type of Legend of Legaia but not really in depth. A few good things is that it's more simpler to use and it's still fun, but it's not really anything really that in depth. Gears battles are only slightly different than land battles but really just the bosses in the Gears battles are the major focus of them and those are actually sometimes fairly difficult.

    Finally. The music of Xenogears is some of Mitsuda's best work. Atleast I think so.

    With Dragon Quest 8, if you're a fan of Dragon Quest you'll love it. The story really seems a bit of a step back from Dragon Warrior 7 and you feel too limited in comparison to pretty much every other game in the series since Dragon Warrior 3 due to the new system which you pick what abilities you want to level up. The graphics however are some of the best on the PS2 and the world is just beautiful. Overall, while I it's only better than Dragon Warrior 2 and definitely better than the original, it's still an amazing game. If you don't choose Xenogears choose this one.

    Rogue Galaxy. The storyline isn't too good and you'll either be able to bear it and take it for what it is and find a great game, or you'll think the storyline is unbearable and hate the game. I for one enjoyed the game. It's overall similar to Dark Cloud 2 minus the town creation and better gameplay. I'd say choose this one if you skip choosing Xenogears or Dragon Quest 8.

    Finally there is FF12. I probably need to give this game another chance, but so far this is the only game on the list I haven't completed. I actually beat FF10, though believe me, FF12 is much better. The thing that I didn't like with FF12 is that you can either take much more time to choose your attacks by having to open the menu with O, choose what character(or the character it starts on,) choose an ability, then wait for the ATB to fill. Repeat for all your characters. If you need to use a different ability while a character is mid ATB, it resets and you have to wait for it to start all over again.

    However, if you don't feel like wasting the time by opening the menu and then moving the option over to just attack which is mostly what you'll be doing on FF12, then you can just use the Gambit system which the characters will automatically choose these actions for you or whatever is best in each situation depending on how you placed it in the menu. This instead turns FF12 to a game that plays itself rather than you playing the game. Either way you're stuck with one extreme or the other, which is why I disliked the game. Also, treasure chests in the game are useless and you'll even be penalized later in the game for opening specific ones which you're given no clue which ones you can't open.

    Now. Here is what I actually liked about FF12. The world map is again linked together. However, rather than being just point a to point b, you now have a huge detailed world to explore(as long as you can actually go to the area first.) You are limited by the barriers of each map, but still it's able to be explored. The best part about FF12 that I did like was the Hunter's Guild. Final Fantasy 12 is a game with quests that are done right, which is always a good thing(sitting right behind Arc the Lad 2 and Phantasy Star Online in how fun the quests are to do.) Sidequests are also fairly good in this game.

    Quote Originally Posted by mobiusclimber View Post
    Xenogears, I hated it. Mostly it just doesn't feel playtested at all. The storyline is almost incomprehensible if you don't play the entire game in one sitting. There are certain design ideas that are just so mind-blowing stupid that they pretty much break the game (like having platforming elements in an RPG where you can get into random battles in mid-jump).
    Actually, it's impossible to get into a random battle in mid jump. Once the game is going to start a random battle, it locks out the ability to jump, pause, and go to your menu then you don't get into the random battle for a full two seconds. The game is timed to go into a random battle seconds after it finds one.

    If you never played the game on the original Playstation you should try it. You'll hear the disc drive stop spinning then start spinning again, at that point it locks everything down except movement and starts the time limit. PS2 doesn't make any sounds that will notify you that you're about to get into a battle, but once you're unable to jump you'll realize you are about to get into one.
    Last edited by kupomogli; 12-09-2009 at 09:32 PM.
    Everything in the above post is opinion unless stated otherwise.

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    I wonder too if anything has to do with the presentation.

    Back in the day, no matter how old the characters were, they were all stumpy little nimrods with big heads running around. Kids/Adults looked the same. Maybe the visuals + voice overs of whiney kids *cough* Tidus *cough cough*

    is throwing you off.


    Actually, it's impossible to get into a random battle in mid jump. Once the game is going to start a random battle, it locks out the ability to jump, pause, and go to your menu then you don't get into the random battle for a full two seconds. The game is timed to go into a random battle seconds after it finds one.

    If you never played the game on the original Playstation you should try it. You'll hear the disc drive stop spinning then start spinning again, at that point it locks everything down except movement and starts the time limit. PS2 doesn't make any sounds that will notify you that you're about to get into a battle, but once you're unable to jump you'll realize you are about to get into one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NayusDante View Post
    What are some recommendations for more "mature" JRPGs? (not necessarily violent or inappropriate, just more age-relevant)
    If you haven't played the Shadow Hearts games then I suggest giving them a shot. The first one is an alright game with some really cool ideas but just wasn't executed as well as it could have been, but it was still a dark, foreboding, unique and overall enjoyable RPG. However, it lays the foundation and sets the story for the phenomenal big budget second installment Shadow Hearts: Covenant.

    Both these game are fairly cheap and not too tough to find used. Similar to Panzer Dragoon Saga, there aren't too many other RPG's that you can compare them to. They have a fun unique battle system, very good Gothic story, and interesting characters. The games have an identity.

    The third Shadow Hearts game is really good as well, but it seemed to take a few steps back from the first two games and fell into the standard JRPG template.
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    About Xenogears: I got into random battles mid-jump a LOT of times. So I was supposed to listen to my PS1 to find out if it was going to happen? WTF?! Come on guys, the developers shouldn't have made it possible for those random battles to occur when I was mid-air. It happened all the freakin time to me where I'd have climbed way up and then bam! random battle and once that ended I fell like a stone all the way back down.

    I'm sorry, but I have no interest in devoting my time to learning a completely new language, which is why Xenogears and Xenosaga really didn't do anything for me. Xenogears would throw out all this annoying babble that doesn't make any sense until you've played the game for twenty hours, but of course by the time you get to the point where something that was said twenty hours ago makes sense, there's already been ten billion other cutscenes that don't make sense. If this was just a movie, it wouldn't matter. You'd get the info you need to decipher wtf is going on soon enough. But in a video game, it just doesn't work. I get the feeling some people had more time on their hands than I did when I played it because I never really understood much of what those anime cutscenes were getting at. The storyline that you actually PLAY made sense, but they kept switching. You'd play as one character (Fei?) and view everything through his eyes, until an anime started up that seemingly had nothing to do w/ the main plot (and wouldn't find out what it had to do w/ anything until twenty hours later). It was just frustrating.

    Xenosaga, on the other hand, wasn't as bad in that most of it made sense almost immediately, but there'd be all these terms that you had to look up in your in-game dictionary to understand what they were getting yet. YES YOU HAD AN IN-GAME DICTIONARY. So if you like reading encyclopedia entries on everything while watching a movie and barely playing a game, you might like Xenosaga. Unfortunately, the gameplay was awful. Not only was the battle engine terrible, but what passed for gameplay at times was just "walk from one end of the ship to the other." So you have this long ass movie to watch, then you'd get control of your character and you'd literally walk from one end of the ship to the other. What was at the other end of the ship? A boss battle? A treasure chest? Please God the end of the game? Nope, just MORE movies! The game actually had a movie that was so long they gave you the option of saving in the middle of it.

    So that my post doesn't end up being nothing but me bitching about a couple of RPGs, here's a list of some that I absolutely love and that you may or may not have played:

    Koudelka, Shadow Hearts, Shadow Hearts: Covenant - I still haven't played "From A New World" or whatever it's called. Koudelka is for the PS1 and is only tengentially related to the other two games. It's also the most broken. I liked it for its atmosphere and storyline, but the gameplay really wears thin. Weapons break in the game, the battles are laid out like a cross between strategy and regular turn-based combat, so they take forever and happen way too frequently. Shadow Hearts is my favorite of the three. Covenant does have improved gameplay, but it's a comedy whereas the first game was more of a horror title. A cheesy horror title, but that's what made it awesome. Gameplay is excellent in both games, but Covenant just refines it.

    Tales of Symphonia - Yeah the storyline is seriously cliche in parts, it's more how they tell it and what they do to change it up and make it different that sets it apart. That, and the battle system is just amazingly fun.

    Dragon Warrior VII - Parts of this game get seriously dark. I love the chances Enix took in this game too, particularly the beginning of the game. Its the last game I really felt like maxing out my characters in.

    Some other games I love that are JRPGs without being tradition JRPGs: Vagrant Story, Parasite Eve, and the Wild Arms series.

    I'm also wondering if you aren't maybe just getting burnt out on newer (PS1 & up) JRPGs. Maybe try taking a break and play some old school stuff. Dig up games you haven't played yet. There's gotta be some old school JRPGs you haven't played. Here's some quick recs:

    For NES: Crystalis, Faria, Magic of Schehezerade, Destiny of an Emperor, or maybe some fan-translated Japanese-only releases.
    For SNES: Shadowrun, EVO, Inindo.
    For Genesis: Only one you might not have played would be Beyond Oasis, your only other choices are the Phantasy Stars, the Shining games (including Shining in the Darkness, which is awesome) and Shadowrun and a few others developed by US companies (Warriors of the Eternal Sun, Faerie Tale Adventure, etc). Can't think of any good JRPGs that aren't obvious.

    I guess what I'm getting at is that there ARE a lot of different JRPGs out there. Some games do tend to play the same cards that have always been in that deck, so it's just a matter of figuring out what kind of game it is.
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    For me, I always thought I was outgrowing RPG's, as while the 16 bit and 32 bit era's of gaming where current I played more JRPG's then any other genre. Then after FFX everything went dowwnhill, I just cant seem to care for them anymore. To be honest though FFX isnt an RPG, its a "Let us hold your hand and walk you through a story" action adventure.

    I keep on purchasing RPG's and have all the ps2 RPG's I could ever want along with everything from this gen, but have yet to find anything that has enticed me to play through to completion. Then mai reason is the story to action ratio, take something like Wild Arms, I loved the story so much that anything gameplay wise that seemed a chore was overshadowed by it, then take LO on the 360 and while the gameplay might be good I am completly bored by the narrative so I notice the bordem more.

    Maybe its me, maybe its a genre running out of orginality due to the ever increasing development costs.
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    My personal suggestion try the new horizons series on the super nintendo. Its literally a pirate simulation rpg and its pretty complicated , plus the story is rather boring for a younger audience but I can imagine older people getting into it.
    Last edited by Richter Belmount; 12-10-2009 at 01:18 PM.
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    i think this has been touched on a little, but with the current state of video games, the more in depth the story is in a given game, the gameplay suffers. on the other side, in an MMO, the gameplay and exploration are phenomenal, but the story is minimal.

    it is very difficult to balance the two

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    Quote Originally Posted by heybtbm View Post
    FYI: Rogue Galaxy is probably the most juvenile JRPG I've played in years. Exhibit A:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhJfg9IxpI8

    (vomit)
    I found that to be really amusing, yet would not want to be caught dead actually playing the game. I can only imagine how it gets later on

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    I thinking saying I've "outgrown" something sounds too... snobbish to me. I prefer to simply say that my tastes have changed. Just like they've changed for a lot of things over time (music, movies...)
    Time will be when the broadest river dries
    And the great cities wane and last descend
    Into the dust, for all things have an end

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    I just picked up Valkyrie Profile 2 at a pawn shop, and I'm actually finding it somewhat enjoyable. The character design/story could have used some work, but in terms of gameplay it's very much unlike other RPGs I've played. It has a battle system that's very fluid and action-oriented, but I still feel like I'm in control of the game, unlike in FFXII. I think I may have to give this one a shot. Not that it's really a classic game or anything...

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    While I haven't outgrown the JRPG, I have definitely moved on from Final Fantasy to games in the Shin Megami Tensei series. FF was by far my favorite RPG franchise though FFVIII. I didn't care for X or X-2 and was unimpressed by IX. I enjoyed XII for the gameplay, which was fantastic, but couldn't get into the story. If not for the battle system I probably would have avoided it.

    SMT: Nocturne was my first game in the SMT series and it blew me away. The story was more mature and I loved the gameplay, art and music. I've since played through Persona 1-4,DDS 1+2 and the English translations of SMT and SMTII on the SNES. I might give FFXIII a try at some point, but unless it's a masterpiece I don't see myself going back.

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