NES Top Loader

[DuckTalesNES]

So I've seen this thing a bit on the internet. Is it more reliable than the original front loading NES?? I'm reading mixed things about whether it has AV capabilities or not. Can anyone provide me with some of this info?

[todesengel]

The top loader is more reliable than the original front loader and can also play PAL format NES releases. Only real downside to it is that it's RF only but you could probably mod it.

[Zoltor]

So I've seen this thing a bit on the internet. Is it more reliable than the original front loading NES?? I'm reading mixed things about whether it has AV capabilities or not. Can anyone provide me with some of this info?

The "official" top loader yes(don't ever buy non Nintendo produced top loaders, they are chinese piece of crap top loader wannabes that don't work right.

In regular NESs the pins are easily bent, and when that happens, It's a pain in the but, to get it to work properly. Also when a game doesn't come on correctly while using the regular NES(aka, you get flashing screen of death), save files are easily erased(thus leading to the tripple save craze of the era, as when save files were deleted, it usually only delete two of them at a time).

With the top loader, you don't have the bent pin issue, thus you don't get the flashing screen of death(so even if the game doesn't load properly, it wouldn't delete saves).

Now the problem is, these were only in stores for a month or so, right at the end of the NES's life, so overall there aren't many out there(atleast nowhere near enough to go around, thus the min 100$ price tag you usually see them selling for).

[A Black Falcon]

So I've seen this thing a bit on the internet. Is it more reliable than the original front loading NES?? I'm reading mixed things about whether it has AV capabilities or not. Can anyone provide me with some of this info?

A lot has been covered already. To answer the last question though, no, the official US toploader does indeed not have AV capabilities. However, the Japanese AV Famicom does. It looks pretty much like a Model 2 US NES, except without the bump around the cart port because the smaller Japanese carts don't need it. It also has AV out and uses the same AV out port that the SNES, N64, and GC all used, so you don't even need a new cable.

It's pretty unfortunate that the US NES 2 didn't have AV out, it's ridiculous that it was RF only after the first NES had AV ports on the side and the NES 2 didn't come out until 1993 or so, well after all other systems had AV...

Oh, it wasn't just on the market for a month, it was longer than that. However, it was quite late in the system's life (released in fall 1993, presumably sold until late 1994, when the last game came out), so it definitely is true that not too many sold. You do see them once in a while though, so they aren't EXTREMELY rare... just pricey. $100 sounds a bit much though, you can get them for less than that... well, if you find one locally at least.

As for the AV Famicom, though it's definitely the most awesome, best model of Famicom or NES there is, it's also really expensive, sadly.

[SPAZ-12]

I have both the toaster and top-loader. Overall, I like the top-loader more (if only because it's "special" or "unusual), though I'm not sure it's a better product.

pros:
- No lockout chip (no flashing games)
- No ZIF socket (the connector lasts longer)
- Rarer (and is fun to show to non-gamers who have no idea what it is)
- Smaller (though you can't stack another system on top of it, which I used to do with the toaster)

cons:
- RF Out only
- Vertical stripes in the video (unrelated to the RF)
- Game Genie issue (only the top password works). I think there is a second compatible version, but I'm not sure.
- More expensive (due to rarity/demand)

There are mods to make it have composite out, so if you're into that sort of thing then you can replace the RF Out. Personally I'm against modifying old hardware in any way, so I just use the RF. Honestly, I think that RF is fine for the NES.

However, the vertical lines in the video might not be fixable. I've read about various methods by which people have been trying to remove the lines, but I don't recall ever seeing a 100% fix. Myself, I just ignore the lines, because they're usually not very distracting.

On a related note, in the more recent (well, around 2008 on) AVGN videos where he reviews a NES game, you can tell that he's using a top-loader, as those vertical lines are there, you just need to know what to look for. If you're not sure whether the vertical lines in the top-loader video will annoy you or not, check out some of those later AVGN NES vids and have a look for yourself--check out the Friday the 13th video, it's pretty apparent in that review.

As for the price, they are more expensive than the toaster, but they shouldn't cost an arm and a leg. I bought mine off of eBay, a bare console with a non-responsive player one port, for $10 plus shipping. One solder reflow later and I had a nice new top-loader.

[DuckTalesNES]

Thanks already for all of the great comments. I noticed a console on ebay that has already been modded to have an AV out so I was curious if people recommended things like that. Will there be any difference in visual/audio quality if I use a modded one with AV out as opposed to a standard one without it? I can use either connection with my TV.

[Arasoi]

Hopefully this won't cause information constipation for a simple question, but a basic quality chart for video from old consoles is as follows, from worst to best:

RF
Composite Video
Svideo
Component (when encoded from RGB)
RGB

You will notice a large jump in quality from RF - composite video, I think it would be worth getting the A/V modded top loader over the non modded. Composite video is the best you can get out of an NES or Famicom without heavily modding the system.

Hope that helps.

[jperryss]

I have both the toaster and top-loader. Overall, I like the top-loader more (if only because it's "special" or "unusual), though I'm not sure it's a better product.

cons:
- RF Out only
- Vertical stripes in the video (unrelated to the RF)
- Game Genie issue (only the top password works). I think there is a second compatible version, but I'm not sure.
- More expensive (due to rarity/demand)

There are mods to make it have composite out, so if you're into that sort of thing then you can replace the RF Out. Personally I'm against modifying old hardware in any way, so I just use the RF. Honestly, I think that RF is fine for the NES.

However, the vertical lines in the video might not be fixable. I've read about various methods by which people have been trying to remove the lines, but I don't recall ever seeing a 100% fix. Myself, I just ignore the lines, because they're usually not very distracting.

Regarding the GG issue, I think you may be confused with the SNES vs SNES2. The GG works fine in the NES toploader, BUT you need to find a GG adapter to make it actually FIT in the toploader.

http://www.atarihq.com/tsr/nes/gg.html

And the vertical lines are definitely fixable with a proper A/V mod. This guy modded mine (he goes by the name Rai on these boards) and the white lines are 100% gone.

[TheCaptain]

I remember when this was released back in 1993 for only $49.99, I kind of wanted one at the time but my standard NES was working fine and I was gearing up to get a SNES that Christmas so I passed on it. A friend of mine has it and uses it instead of the classic NES console because the top loader is more dependable than the classic NES when dealing with longtime play and saving games properly.

I may still get one someday for nostalgic/collector purposes, but I'm fine with my classic NES and my Generation NEX, both consoles do the job perfectly fine for me.

[-hellvin-]

Is the thing really that expensive anymore? With the flood of nexes and what not on ebay I don't see them going for much over 40 anymore...I didn't really look too deep into prices but it doesn't seem to hit what it used to.

[DuckTalesNES]

Without worrying about this being moved to another forum (the what is it worth one or whatever) I saw it typically going for about $60-70 on the low end.

[Raedon]

Buying a Toploader is more of a console completionist exercise. It's about as good as you get for uncommon NES items people will give you kudos for. No one I knew had one before the internet. And I didn't even know about the thing until the N64 was on its way out.

I've got some rare NES items but company never really cared about the bad games. Zelda or SMB in a toploader with a dogbone controller seems to be about the most interesting NES experience for people who have zero interest in collecting but had a NES as a kid.

I prefer a toaster for the AV and lack of the vertical lines but even with new pins the things will blink when the toploader doesn't have a problem with a dirty cart.

If you are going to a New Years party that you know will just be drinking with people who work all day and WoW all night bring an Atari 2600 or NES and some common games. They get a lot of use.

[Jorpho]

The correct terminology for the "vertical lines" is "dot crawl", no?

Zelda or SMB in a toploader with a dogbone controller seems to be about the most interesting NES experience for people who have zero interest in collecting but had a NES as a kid.

I was waiting for someone to mention the dogbone controllers. Apparently they're quite nice.

even with new pins the things will blink when the toploader doesn't have a problem with a dirty cart.

Yes, I understood that it's not just the change in the pins that make the toploader superior, but also the lack of a lockout chip. Of course, to get that benefit you could always just open up a toaster and disable the lockout chip to clip its pins.

[SPAZ-12]

misinformation

Regarding the GG issue, I think you may be confused with the SNES vs SNES2. The GG works fine in the NES toploader, BUT you need to find a GG adapter to make it actually FIT in the toploader...

Yep, I got the two confused. I have both the NES 2 and SNES 2, which is probably why I got them confused. The Game Genie will still work with the top-loader without an adapter, it's just that once it's in, it's not very easy to get out (which I just confirmed for myself). That's ok though, 'cause Game Genies are for wusses!

[shadowkn55]

The correct terminology for the "vertical lines" is "dot crawl", no?

Not in the context of the top loader issue. It suffers from a distinct vertical striping pattern. Getting the a/v mod will fix the issue if the correct amp is built for it.

[Raedon]

The correct terminology for the "vertical lines" is "dot crawl", no?

No, dot crawl happens with any composite video signal. You'll see it around sharp edges and is eliminated by moving to S-Video or a higher video format where the color channels are more separated.


Dot crawl

[savageone]

I think it comes down to personal preference, personally I sold my top loader many years ago. When I initially got one (around 2000 or so) all the rave was about how they work so much better than toaster style NES systems. Long story short: They don't. A dirty game is still a dirty game and it is going to give you just as much trouble in a top loader as it would in a toaster.

One big thing I think the toaster has over the top loader is that there are no worries about abusing the pins with dirty games and what not. If you ruin your pins somehow you can just simply replace them since they are so plentiful and cheap.

The dogbone controller is fantastic and is my choice for playing with these days. Really great controller.

[betamax001]

No, dot crawl happens with any composite video signal. You'll see it around sharp edges and is eliminated by moving to S-Video or a higher video format where the color channels are more separated.


Dot crawl

That looks like my TV when I play SMB through an A/V cable.

[Kitsune Sniper]

This also happens with crap Gamestop S-Video cables which apparently fake the S-Video signal or something.

[Ed Oscuro]

moving to S-Video or a higher video format where the color channels are more separated.

You have the details incorrect. The problem is caused by the luminescence (how bright) or chroma (color) signals being misinterpreted for the other; it actually has nothing to do with "color channels." There is an advantage in separating out color signals so each has more bandwidth, but you don't get separate color signals until YPbPR component or RGB (another type of component video).

S-Video does not have separated color signals; its improvements are wholly due to luma and chroma being carried on separate lines. The extra two pins you see on an S-Video plug are ground pins for each of the signals.

By the way, here's a tip for S-Video cable users: When using an S-Video plug, only plug in the black S-video plug and the left and right audio channels (white and red usually). Don't plug in the yellow cable (if it has one) because your equipment may (theoretically) choose that video over the S-Video signal. It's not so likely to happen but it's a good reminder what you're actually using, and saves a few seconds and wear and tear when you're hooking it up.

It is actually possible to improve the video output quality with most composite RCA signals (i.e. one-plug video on the yellow plug) by using a comb filter, but it does this by adding the signal to itself with a delay, so it inherently introduces some lag. However much, I couldn't say. With a CRT set and a good comb filter this is probably much less than a modern LCD screen, but at the minimum you're probably looking at nothing less than multiple milliseconds (hundredths of a second). Not a lot of delay, but it starts to add up when you're using new equipment.