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Thread: Why the RGB monitor?

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    Pear (Level 6) Oldskool's Avatar
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    Default Why the RGB monitor?

    Just curious as to why some people are running RGB monitors? I always found that they were too small to get any enjoyment out of them as rarely do you see any that are larger than 25"-27" here in the United States, and most people are running the smaller computer screens. I can understand if you are in Europe and that's what every monitor is. But why are people here in the United States running RGB computer monitors?

    I understand that some of you are RGB purists, and that the video quality may be AMAZING, but why? Unless it's sitting up on your computer desk and you are right on it, I don't really see the point.

    And why aren't people running Scart/RGB converters more often? I would think that it's cheaper than a monitor + shipping, and not only that but you can convert the signal into component or S-Video onto a larger screen. Is the difference in quality not worth it?

    Thanks I have always just been curious about this. Not slamming anyone for using one or anything like that.

    Anyone running any RGB hardware/computers on their big screen TV's?
    Last edited by Oldskool; 07-02-2010 at 09:41 AM.

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    Insert Coin (Level 0) Razor Ramon's Avatar
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    hey yo!

    RGB monitors are big & plenty..

    there be the:

    Sony PVM 20 as in 20 inches
    Sony PVM 25 as in 25 inches

    and if that ain't big enough for ya

    gets you a NEC XM29 - that's a 29 inches of RGB beauty brother!

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    Pear (Level 6) Oldskool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razor Ramon View Post
    hey yo!

    RGB monitors are big & plenty..

    there be the:

    Sony PVM 20 as in 20 inches
    Sony PVM 25 as in 25 inches

    and if that ain't big enough for ya

    gets you a NEC XM29 - that's a 29 inches of RGB beauty brother!
    The 29" is about the only one I think I could handle, as the others are too small to me. And also, I seriously doubt these are plentiful in the United States. Most likely you'll have to have one shipped in which cost an arm and a leg right?

    That's the RGB dilemma I think. Finding one, paying for the shipping, and them being too small.

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    Great Puma (Level 12) jb143's Avatar
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    Converting a non-RGB signal into RGB does not get you better quality, it just gets you RGB. That's why people mod their systems for RGB. You can usually get the 3 color signals right out of the chips before they're ever converted to anything else.
    "Game programmers are generally lazy individuals. That's right. It's true. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Since the dawn of computer games, game programmers have looked for shortcuts to coolness." Kurt Arnlund - Game programmer for Activision, Accolade...

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    Pear (Level 6) Oldskool's Avatar
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    I think you mis-understood me. What I meant was converting a console/computer or whatever from RGB to something else that's close to equal, like S-Video or Component - so that you can use it on a standard US TV and not a small RGB monitor.

    I didn't mean converting a system that's S-Video or Composite into RGB, that's going backwards I think.

    I understand the need for having to mod consoles to output RGB, like the NES. But many of them output RGB natively such as pretty much any Sega console, the Neo Geo, and the SNES so I've heard.

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    Apple (Level 5) Arasoi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razor Ramon View Post

    Sony PVM 20 as in 20 inches
    Sony PVM 25 as in 25 inches

    and if that ain't big enough for ya

    gets you a NEC XM29 - that's a 29 inches of RGB beauty brother!
    These happen to be the 3 I have. (I need to recap the XM29)

    Theres also a 37 inch Mitsubishi monitor and an NEC XM37.

    10 different people will give you 10 different answers on RGB and if its worth it. Some will tell you composite or RF is better.. can't say I agree with the overall evidence for this but to each their own.

    All of the RGB monitors mentioned have inputs for S-video and composite video. One of the main reasons is to display a true 240p signal, with hardware scanlines in RGB. Some prefer the look of a CRT TV with scanlines for their classic low res games, some don't. The NEC XM models provide support for VGA as well, though some of the higher res modes are interlaced. I've found this feature useful a time or two.

    If signal clarity by itself without scanlines is the goal, there's no reason not to use a scaler unit or convert to component video (the visible differences between RGB and YPbPr are a lot less prevalent than often stated). I've heard a few video enthusiasts state that a very large plasma or LCD coupled with a scaler unit like an XRGB2 looks better than 240p RGB with hardware scanlines on CRT from the same system.

    Personally, I like my RGB and my scanlines so that's why I track down these monitors. If you're patient, you can get a cheap price on a local unit.

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    Cherry (Level 1)
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    There were actually quite a few large screen 15kHz RGB CRTs available in the US... 27" - 42". There's an incomplete list here:
    http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthread.php?p=140066

    I don't think there were many of these monitors made, but they're still around if you look. I had to drive a couple hours each way to get mine but it was definitely worth it.

    I've got an NEC XM29 too and picture quality is amazing. It supports 15kHz RGB for my old consoles and 480p for Dreamcast VGA box, GC/Wii, and PS2. Can run my laptop, Amiga, or Atari ST in any video modes. Supports NTSC or PAL. And, the rectangular case is tateable for shmups, vertical JAMMA PCBs, or classic arcade compilations/MAME. I think it's the best possible monitor for my game room. (Don't know if I could get a larger RGB monitor up the stairs and larger probably wouldn't be tateable)

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    I've got nothing against RGB monitors, but I do find the that using an XRGB-2 Plus and converting to VGA or component and putting on a nice CRT seems to be nearly the same picture.

    I'm sure the image quality is different, but I can't see much difference in either.

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    The major problem with RGB monitors, is first locating one for sale that you can get to locally. (Monitor are heavy and fragile, shipping is expensive, and poor packing leads to disaster.) Next is finding the same that is better than 20-something inch. Then the cables for the systems... It's a long an arduous road, usual pricey too. I was never really sold hard on RGB. I have had a VGA upconverter box for quite a while displayed through a 19" and later a 21" VGA computer monitor. I considered that good enough, if not equivalent. Then everything changed...

    37 inch Mitsubishi Megaview (yes, it's taller than my couch on the case rack), picked up two off craigslist a couple months back. $50 for both. $100 for two cases with fresh foam. Remotes and cables included. I hit pay-dirt. Ancient cell phone used for this pic, so it's glory is limited. Besides, it's just NES A/V upconverted to 800x600 VGA. I hadn't built my scart box or bought my scart cables yet. RGB is quite nice, and it requires a bit more dedication (my two is over a quarter-ton worth of display, just sayin') and luck than most are willing to go through, so it's not for everyone.

    Last edited by Icarus Moonsight; 07-02-2010 at 11:49 PM.


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    Banana (Level 7) Zing's Avatar
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    How could composite converted to vga possibly look better than just composite?

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    I can't say how exactly, because I honestly don't know. All I know for sure, from experience and comparison, is that it does improve.

    Splitting the NES composite video signal; one to the monitors composite connection, the other to the converter box connected to the same monitor, you can switch between the RGB and Composite inputs and really notice the difference. The NES and Flashback 2 units are my only systems that do not have RGB standard, or relatively simple RGB mod options, or standard VGA/Component, DVI or HDMI. So it's not even that big of an issue. Who needs an HD-NES that bad?
    Last edited by Icarus Moonsight; 07-03-2010 at 03:01 PM.


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    Strawberry (Level 2) allyourblood's Avatar
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    I just picked up a couple 13" RGB monitors from my father in law and I'm waiting on a few components to come in the mail so I can start building some cables. In my living room I play on a 50", but in my studio, I can live with sitting just a few feet from a 13" monitor if it looks nice and clear. Kinda takes me back anyway. What kills me is when people buy a 40" HDTV and sit 10-12 feet away from it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zing View Post
    How could composite converted to vga possibly look better than just composite?
    Depends on the quality of the filter in the TV versus the one in the converter.

    An interesting example here is laserdisc players. Some of the later models have S-Video output... but the video on the disc itself is in composite format, so the player itself has to filter the signal into it's components before it sends it to the TV. However, as technology went forward, TV's themselves got higher quality filters, and you end up with the situation where you're better off using composite rather than S-Video, because the TV itself does a better job handling the signal.

    This might become more noticeable in the future when connections like composite and S-Video become legacy, and manufacturers start using very cheap filters in their TV's (though maybe in the future, even the cheap filters will be better than 90's hardware, who knows).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Icarus Moonsight View Post
    I can't say how exactly, because I honestly don't know. All I know for sure, from experience and comparison, is that it does improve.

    Splitting the NES composite video signal; one to the monitors composite connection, the other to the converter box connected to the same monitor, you can switch between the RGB and Composite inputs and really notice the difference.
    People really need to understand the source video is the defining factor. If you're using composite video out from a system then no matter how many times you filter it its always going to be displaying a compostite video picture. You aren't switching to an RGB input because you've got no native RGB source being supplied into the TV.

    Another common miss conception is that S-Video is an equal to RGB (which has been said in this topic a few times), If that person had seen a well sorted RGB setup then they would agree they are not comparable.

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    Shmup Hooligan Custom rank graphic
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    Some people really should understand that this is not at all what I said. For clarity, not that it really matters, but...

    The converter accepts composite and s-vid and outputs VGA (higher freq RGBHV) either 640x420 or 800x600 (menu selectable). That's one improvement, scaling up to a higher resolution. The signal is taken from the system/source and put into the selected VGA format. My box has options that filter signal noise and normalize the input signal with other filtering. You do still get some telltale composite artifacts, but the processes nearly eliminates the most horrid and noticeable instances of color bleed/rainbow artifacts and to a lesser extent, dot crawl. Considering what the NES RGB mod requires (and also the downsides like the messed up color palette), I'm satisfied with the level of quality this method produces.

    The Megaviews were produced mid to late 90's, so IDK what, if any, filtering process they'd have on the composite and s-vid inputs to itself. Since it was designed as a broadcast/reference monitor, I somewhat doubt it would employ them since you'd want to see the actual quality of what you are looking at unprocessed, ideally. They are not your usual RGB monitor. They can handle a wide range of inputs on the 5BNC RGB inputs, and the set hardware scans, auto-detects and configures to the input. RGBs, RGBHV, RGsB, VGA... Auto-scans the freq range too. They're wonder displays, at least I'm very impressed with them.

    You should have seen the set-up where I played 2600 and TG16 through RF into my DVD recorder, getting s-vid output, and putting that into the converter box and then the VGA into a computer monitor... Frankengaming 101.
    Last edited by Icarus Moonsight; 07-05-2010 at 07:55 AM.


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    I have 3 29" PVMs for arcade and retro Japanese PC stuff but also have the option of using my 65" plasma with XRGB-2plus for all of my RGB consoles/PCs.

    Definitely prefer this setup to having the small 1084s.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shou View Post
    I have 3 29" PVMs for arcade and retro Japanese PC stuff but also have the option of using my 65" plasma with XRGB-2plus for all of my RGB consoles/PCs.

    Definitely prefer this setup to having the small 1084s.
    Nice.

    I'd be right there with you except I don't want to drop the coin on an XRGB* and I haven't a lot of room in my studio as it is. I'd be hard pressed to pass up a nice 20" or larger RGB CRT, but that'd sure take up a lot of space.

    One of these days I'm hoping to trip across an XRGB at a yard sale or CL ad. Until then, the 1084s is gonna have to tide me over. Still makes for a fun little project.

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    FYI: The Megaviews line-double an s-vid signal to eliminate/fill-in scanlines, but composite signals (whether connected RCA or BNC) are displayed with scanlines.

    Connected the Gamecube (via direct s-vid, no VGA box) to play a GBA game on the set and rediscovered this.


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