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Thread: Retro forum taboos: Why roms and not reproductions and pirate carts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by treismac View Post
    "Donor carts" concerns me as well. With websites like retrousb selling boards and cases, I believe it is unacceptable to kill a video game that didn't need to die.
    What about the gazillion copies of Madden '9something out there? Those make for excellent donor carts and nobody really gives a crap about them anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmond Dantes View Post
    I like that repros exist. I don't like emulators because they don't feel authentic enough--and what's the point of having real hardware if you're not gonna use it?

    What I don't like is the whole "donor cart" thing, and how for every repro made there's another game lost forever. This is okay when its something dirt common like Super Mario Bros, but I've heard of people using fairly rare games as donor carts (someone on these very forums once used Bandit Kings of Ancient China as a donor) and that kind of thing just scares me.
    I'm scared too. I'm all for using sports games but when you take something as rare as that and turn it into something else, that could have easily be emulated you've gone too far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ApolloBoy View Post
    What about the gazillion copies of Madden '9something out there? Those make for excellent donor carts and nobody really gives a crap about them anyway.
    No no..you save them for something more practical...
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    Yeah, it is maybe a touch hypocritical. I'm up for unlicensed games, myself, ones that are completely original games that were just made without permission from the hardware manufacturer, but actual pirates that steal a preexisting game shouldn't exist, in my book. And they're a bane for collectors that want the real deal but have trouble distinguishing between, say, fake GBA carts and legit GBA carts. It's pretty bad when even GameStop was selling pirates because the store employees didn't know how to tell the difference.

    As for repros, I don't like seeing people trying to profit off of stealing games and fan translations, but if someone wants to make their own, that's their business. I just don't understand the fascination myself. There's SO much discussion of repros and homebrews on here these days that it seems like no one even wants to discuss actual licensed, commercial releases anymore (I'm exaggerating, yes, but sometimes I feel like I'm wading through so much of that stuff). Personally, if I want a game that didn't come out in the US, I just buy it. Simple as that. If it's in Japanese, I play it in Japanese. I use an FAQ for some help if its available and I need to, or I figure it out on my own. Very few games absolutely require knowing a language. Even RPGs are typically easy enough to figure out. Talk to everyone in a town, trigger whatever events you need to, explore a dungeon, fight battles. Simple as that. If the actual gameplay is engaging, I don't care if I'm missing out on some of the story (a lot of a video game's story is told visually, anyway). Most of the time in an RPG is usually spent in dungeons. You don't need language to run around exploring, and figuring out the commands of a battle system typically wouldn't take more than a couple minutes of trial and error. And so much is number-based, which is universal (unless you're playing a super Japanese-y game that uses kanji to represent the numbers).

    I'm digressing, though. Personally, if I did want to play a translated game, I think I'd buy the legit release and then either emulate the patched version on my PC or get one of those flash carts if I wanted to play the translation on actual hardware. Making a stand-alone fake US release for a single title seems like a massive waste of money and the packaging probably still won't be as nice as the legit foreign release, which is probably a fraction of the price. But different strokes for different folks.

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    Strawberry (Level 2) sloan's Avatar
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    More so than just looking the other way as forum posters discuss hacks, repros, and pirate carts, I fail to understand how sites like AA get by with selling Namco IP directly off their store link while Namco continues to license those same properties to companies like Jaaks Pacific, Radica, etc. Similarly, it is easy for anyone to visit Good Deal Games and see Pac Man Collection available for Colecovision. Is Namco's stance possibly that AA and GDG are selling so few of those games that it is not really a threat?

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    Take this one for example


    That's someone making money off officially licensed Nintendo games, they are short versions of the real thing but they are the real thing. But then would you almost consider them demos?
    What if someone started taking demos and putting them into fancy cases and selling them. That whole repro world is boarding on to much moral and legal grounds. I wouldn't personally want to be a part of it.

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    Then take the test cartridges


    These are worth some money and look like one of the easiest things to fake I've seen.

    I know in other hobbies repro's are a huge part of the business such as vintage coke machines and signage, clothing, vintage toys etc...

    At least in this hobby the community is really close to a point and the big stuff like the world championship carts are hard to fake just for the fact that people who buy them want a detailed history.
    Last edited by Panzerfuzion; 03-08-2012 at 04:41 PM.

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    "That's someone making money off officially licensed Nintendo games, they are short versions of the real thing but they are the real thing. But then would you almost consider them demos?
    What if someone started taking demos and putting them into fancy cases and selling them. That whole repro world is boarding on to much moral and legal grounds. I wouldn't personally want to be a part of it. "


    What? this makes no sense at all. Short versions of the real thing but they are the real thing? no they are not. Thats a repro from retrozone, clearly its a repro. NWC are only gold or grey. Therefore it certainly is not a "real thing"

    and....demos? demos of what? what is a demo cart?

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "These are worth some money and look like one of the easiest things to fake I've seen.

    I know in other hobbies repro's are a huge part of the business such as vintage coke machines and signage, clothing, vintage toys etc...

    At least in this hobby the community is really close to a point and the big stuff like the world championship carts are hard to fake just for the fact that people who buy them want a detailed history. "


    yeah you can make repros of test carts, keep in mind its nearly impossible to match the label quality, so thats always a dead giveaway.....

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    Honestly though, beyond GBA and Neo Geo carts, has anyone ever bought a counterfeit cart that you honestly thought was the real deal?

    Playstation 1/2 & Saturn HK silvers are obvious at first sight to be counterfeits.

    I don't think I've ever seen a counterfeit factory produced NES cart. Beyond NWC or other competition carts, I've really not seen any homemade reproductions that were counterfeits.

    Every single SNES or MD counterfeit I've ever seen had some form of hideously deformed cart sticker art or box inserts, and even if that wasn't the case most of the time the shell's they use are either from the wrong territory or universal pirate notched shells. To me, as far as the 8 & 16 bit market goes, I don't see how anyone that's even the slightest bit of a collector is going to be duped into buying a boot. If you're dropping 3 & 4 digits on a 20 year old "game tape" chances are you probably have done your homework.

    And I don't really understand why anyone would look down at people that buy or play counterfeits. If you're looking to pass them off as the real deal to make a buck, then yeah you're a real piece of shit. If you just want to play the game, why is buying a $5 pirate of Alien Soldier blasphemous yet emulation/flash carts/MAME circle jerks are above reproach?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jb143 View Post
    No no..you save them for something more practical...
    http://i40.tinypic.com/qyepkx.jpg
    That's absolutely disgusting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    As for repros, I don't like seeing people trying to profit off of stealing games and fan translations, but if someone wants to make their own, that's their business. I just don't understand the fascination myself.
    I don't think it's anymore unusual than the fascination of any other video games. But then I don't think most people who are into these reproduction or fan-translated games have a 'fascination', they just enjoy playing classic games, and having them in a convenient format that they enjoy and are familiar with.

    Personally, if I want a game that didn't come out in the US, I just buy it. Simple as that. If it's in Japanese, I play it in Japanese. I use an FAQ for some help if its available and I need to, or I figure it out on my own.
    That's like the complete opposite of fun to me. Playing a game and having close to no idea what the hell I'm doing, or what's going on, and having to wade through a walk through, spoiling everything, and simultaneously rendering the whole 'playing' aspect tedium, seems powerfully unfun, IMO. Trying to read only enough in an FAQ as to not reveal more than I care to know about the plot seems laboriously ridiculous if there's a domestic language alternative that I can play like I do every other game. While I'm not fascinated with fan translated imports, I completely understand why people would want them rather than trudge through a menu heavy game in a language COMPLETELY foreign to them. I've known and heard people over the years who act like being an import purist is some sort of badge of honor or something (don't get me started on Otaku). As if enjoying the media in their own native language somehow completely diminishes the experience (despite playing hundreds of Japanese games which are/were officially released domestically in their language).

    I honestly don't get it. I mean, why play the domestic release of Final Fantasy (pick a number) at all if it's such a bad thing to have it in English? Why does it matter if it's an official release or an unofficial fan translated release?

    Very few games absolutely require knowing a language. Even RPGs are typically easy enough to figure out. Talk to everyone in a town, trigger whatever events you need to, explore a dungeon, fight battles. Simple as that.
    I don't know (or care) if I'm in the minority, but a pretty large part of why I enjoy RPG's is the engaging story lines. I don't want to "figure it out", I simply want to enjoy it, fully understood and realized.

    If the actual gameplay is engaging, I don't care if I'm missing out on some of the story
    Fair enough, however you don't really know how much of the story you're actually missing out on though. That some could be little, or plenty. Now, I wouldn't presume to tell you or anyone else what they should enjoy, but personally, I care a great deal about the story/plot/events of a game that's chiefly story driven.

    I'm digressing, though. Personally, if I did want to play a translated game, I think I'd buy the legit release and then either emulate the patched version on my PC or get one of those flash carts if I wanted to play the translation on actual hardware. Making a stand-alone fake US release for a single title seems like a massive waste of money and the packaging probably still won't be as nice as the legit foreign release, which is probably a fraction of the price. But different strokes for different folks.
    That sounds like a lot more work than just purchasing a translated cartridge and putting it into your game system. You're not doing the developers or publishers any favor either way when you purchase a game second hand after all, so unless you're mainly in it for the sake of collecting, I don't understand what the big deal is playing a fan translated hardcopy version.

    I mean like you said, different strokes, but I think it's strange if someone into gaming can't understand the appeal of wanting to playing games in your native language without jumping through hoops, or using unorthodox methods that hinder the fun and simple ease of play that classic gamers grow up with.

    I own a lot of import games, but none of them are Japanese text heavy, and they're all non-text driven genres like puzzle, action, shooters, and platform games. I don't own any fan-translated carts, but I would like to get some one day (for cheap, or course). Especially ones which are 'missing' installments of series that came over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parodius Duh! View Post
    "That's someone making money off officially licensed Nintendo games, they are short versions of the real thing but they are the real thing. But then would you almost consider them demos?
    What if someone started taking demos and putting them into fancy cases and selling them. That whole repro world is boarding on to much moral and legal grounds. I wouldn't personally want to be a part of it. "


    What? this makes no sense at all. Short versions of the real thing but they are the real thing? no they are not. Thats a repro from retrozone, clearly its a repro. NWC are only gold or grey. Therefore it certainly is not a "real thing"

    and....demos? demos of what? what is a demo cart?
    I'm not sure what you are talking about or don't understand, I'm talking about the games on that NWC Repro are Super Mario Bros, Rad Racer and Tetris. Those are all officially licensed games from Nintendo but on the repro just like the real thing they are shorted versions because they were for the competition. But the repro cart he is selling has Super Mario Bros, Rad Racer and Tetris on it in playable form. The guy is selling a Reproduction Cart with nintendo games on it. Not sure what part of that didn't make sense to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Az View Post
    To me, as far as the 8 & 16 bit market goes, I don't see how anyone that's even the slightest bit of a collector is going to be duped into buying a boot. If you're dropping 3 & 4 digits on a 20 year old "game tape" chances are you probably have done your homework.
    It can be very difficult at times to tell a real Famicom game from a pirate, so there's at least one example from the 8 and 16-bit generations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Megas
    I mean like you said, different strokes, but I think it's strange if someone into gaming can't understand the appeal of wanting to playing games in your native language without jumping through hoops, or using unorthodox methods that hinder the fun and simple ease of play that classic gamers grow up with.
    I can understand the appeal of wanting to play a game in English (I mean, I personally almost never import a game if a domestic version is available), and I understand the appeal of not wanting to jump through hoops, which is exactly why I said that if I was to play a fan-translated game, the easiest, most logical approach in my mind is to either emulate on a PC and spend nothing, or, to play on actual hardware, get a flash cart and put as many patched games as you want (and be able to change the contents when updated patches are released or new patches come out). I know flash carts can be pretty pricey, but that seems like nothing compared to paying $50+ for each single game repro. No way would I spend money like that on a fake. But, like I said, that's just me.

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    I personally enjoy repros because it kinda gives me that "what-if" feeling to it. The only one I own is Earthboud zero/Mother 1. and i like the idea of having the cartridge and playing it on original hardware and its almost like it was released. I do agree tho that there should be some kind of small indication that it is a repro.

    the only thing I can think of to differentiate between a repro and a pirate would have to be quality, but thats a stretch sometimes. theres really not a big difference.
    However i do for some reason find a lot of amusement in the demake category of pirate famicom games, like ALTTP or DKC on famicom.

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    What about patched carts? Take FFV, for example, that was only released in Japan, and add an English translation patch to it? (I don't know all the specifics of how that works, only that it does work, and I'd rather have a Japanese Super Famicom cart that plays an English game than emulation or even pure repro).

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    I believe playing Sweet Home on a toploader Nintendo Entertainment with a bonafide NES controller in hand, literally impossible 20 years ago, is like living a dream come true. Emulators, I tried....not the same thing. Yeah, sure, you can buy an aftermarket NES adaptor for your laptop but, imho, there's no experience like plugging a cart, turnin' on the analog tv, poppin' a can of cold soda, and go bonanza like it's 1992. And if developers want a cut? Virtual Console, Xbox Live Arcade, PSN, Steam....so many options have at it, Hoss. If one fan in his basement can translate a rom by himself a decade ago, what stopping a multi-national video game company and its hundreds of employees now?

    Heck I think they should've unloaded their vaults this gen, start an aggressive ad campaign to introduce these classics to both old n' new generations, called them "Lost Retro Classics", and encourage consumers to buy Nintendo VC, PSN, XBox Point Cards in every Walgreen, Walmart, Gamestop, and Best Buy out there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    I can understand the appeal of wanting to play a game in English (I mean, I personally almost never import a game if a domestic version is available), and I understand the appeal of not wanting to jump through hoops, which is exactly why I said that if I was to play a fan-translated game, the easiest, most logical approach in my mind is to either emulate on a PC and spend nothing, or, to play on actual hardware, get a flash cart and put as many patched games as you want (and be able to change the contents when updated patches are released or new patches come out).
    My father and several of my friends wouldn't know the first thing to do, and I'm sure they aren't alone. Honestly, that whole sentence would be like Greek to them, and to a lot of people who only have a casual interest in retro gaming, and aren't that tech savvy. I hear the conversations all the time in stores that deal in older games. A lot of people who have fallen out of the hobby, but have dusted off an old system for kicks, and grab a few carts at the flea market or gaming specialty stores don't want to do anything but put a cartridge in and turn the power on. Many of them don't know what emulators even are, or flash carts for that matter, but they know how to use eBay and purchase games. I have a friend who was an RPG fiend, but he knew fuck-all about computers (and didn't care, really). He was open to pretty much all platforms, and would definitely spend money on a fan-translated cartridge if it meant playing a game in a series he heard good things about, or played other installments off and enjoyed. I doubt that he would spend $50 for a fan-translation (do they normally go for that much...yikes!), but I'm sure he would have spent half that if not a little more. He's in jail now serving a life sentence for shooting his ex-girlfriend in the forehead, execution style, so that's neither here nor there.

    With all that said, I understand your point of view a little better now. The current gen game price point of a reproduction cartridge or fan-translated game would definitely deter me, and most of the people who aren't up on things like emulators most likely aren't the people populating gaming forums who are seemingly fascinated with repros and fan-translated carts. In the end my only real concern is the prohibitive pricing of these reproductions. As many others have said, there's plenty to be said for playing an older cartridge title the old fashion way. It just feels right/better to a lot of gamers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Press_Start View Post

    Heck I think they should've unloaded their vaults this gen, start an aggressive ad campaign to introduce these classics to both old n' new generations, called them "Lost Retro Classics", and encourage consumers to buy Nintendo VC, PSN, XBox Point Cards in every Walgreen, Walmart, Gamestop, and Best Buy out there.
    exactly. and with that new 3ds VC thing doing portable classics, bring in some of the gameboy games we didnt get either. mother 3 maybe?

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    Man I'd love a repro of a translated Mother 3. I have it on a stupid flash cart that I dedicated just to that game, but it's just not the same.
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    IMO the distinction between repro/bootleg just comes down to the intentions of the makers. If they're out to turn a profit, it's a bootleg. If they only charge for parts and labour, because they want to provide a service to people who want to play otherwise inaccessible games on real hardware, I'd consider that a repro. The quality of the product doesn't matter - bootlegs can be hand-assembled and repros can be professionally produced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel_king View Post
    IMO the distinction between repro/bootleg just comes down to the intentions of the makers. If they're out to turn a profit, it's a bootleg. If they only charge for parts and labour, because they want to provide a service to people who want to play otherwise inaccessible games on real hardware, I'd consider that a repro. The quality of the product doesn't matter - bootlegs can be hand-assembled and repros can be professionally produced.
    Now, I can't judge the hearts of people, but I am fairly certain that the dude running retrousb.com isn't merely providing a service to fellow retro gamers with repros running from $28 (complete Donkey Kong)-$85 (Nintendo Campus Challenge).

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