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Thread: Any one else keeping up with all the Archie drama?

  1. #51
    Strawberry (Level 2) SEGA_Queen's Avatar
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    Well, it looks like this mess is almost over:


    http://www.tssznews.com/2012/12/04/s...opyright-case/


    It about time! I just hope Archie can still use Ken's character's.

  2. #52
    Great Puma (Level 12) JSoup's Avatar
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    In other news, 99% of the echidna characters have been erased from the storyline, thanks Ken.

    http://www.tssznews.com/2012/12/27/f...rs-settlement/

    Although, BobR has stated that this had nothing to do with Ken's end of the lawsuit and that the agreement came in too late to effect the current issues. He seems to think this all is something Archie is forcing to cover their asses.

    http://www.kenpenders.com/forums/vie...php?f=5&t=2514

    Edit: You know, what actually makes me mad about this whole situation is that I saw this coming. Video game comics are hard to sell, they don't normally last for more than a few issues, maybe a collected volume if they're lucky. Sonic, I think, is one of the longest lasting video game comics around and it's lasted as long as it had due to Archie pushing Sega to let the writers do their jobs, which Sega did to a point. Now both companies are are tightening their belts and it's heavily effecting the story. Meanwhile, Penders popularity is at an all time low, which I imagine is going to affect the sales of his new book, whenever that get's released. So, congrats Ken, you've killed your own career and one of the longest running video game comics, all for what amounts to a moral victory.
    Last edited by JSoup; 12-28-2012 at 11:03 AM.




  3. #53
    Great Puma (Level 12) JSoup's Avatar
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    Supposedly BoBR posted something somewhere that implies that Archie has completely lost the rights to Sonic, but I can't find anything like that anywhere.....




  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSoup View Post
    Supposedly BoBR posted something somewhere that implies that Archie has completely lost the rights to Sonic, but I can't find anything like that anywhere.....
    The only place I've heard something like that is in this blog:

    http://amomentofarchiesonic.tumblr.c...#disqus_thread

    However, even the blog writer doesn't know where BobR's statement came from originally. I think it's more likely somebody has been overanalyzing BobR's statements.

    And speaking of statements, Ian Flynn has made an interesting one:

    http://www.tssznews.com/2013/01/29/f...comics-future/

    I don't know if that's a good thing or bad thing, but I doubt it's a total "apocalypse" like some fans are fearing.

    EDIT: I was browsing on Ian's forum, and one of the member's mentioned that Sonic Select Volume 7 has no edits whatsoever. All of Ken's characters are intact. So I hope it's a good sign.
    Last edited by SEGA_Queen; 02-05-2013 at 03:38 PM.

  5. #55
    Great Puma (Level 12) JSoup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SEGA_Queen View Post
    I was browsing on Ian's forum, and one of the member's mentioned that Sonic Select Volume 7 has no edits whatsoever. All of Ken's characters are intact. So I hope it's a good sign.
    Not surprising. There seem to be few edits to the archive series, aside from removing Ken's name from the credits and a few formatting issues. People who have previewed Archive 20 say that there are little to no changes, same as most of the archives before it.




  6. #56
    Strawberry (Level 2) SEGA_Queen's Avatar
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    Well, I just read an interesting post from Ken's friend/fanboy BobR.

    It's in this thread in Pender's forum: http://www.kenpenders.com/forums/vie...=2514&start=25

    I'm referring to the following conversation:

    Mavrickindigo wrote:

    I suppose, but this whole deal is turning out pretty bad for Mr. Penders. I mean his lawsuit caused the ruination of his characters in the comic. He no longer has a legacy.

    BoBR Wrote:

    Actually, that's fine, because then they'll get used properly when he publishes the "Lara-Su Chronicles."

    Sir Bert Leaman Wrote:

    BobR, are you perhaps hinting at the real nature of what's going on behind the scenes?



    Now, it could just be BobR's personal opinion on the situation. But, as Sir Bert Leaman said, it could also be a hint as to how the settlement turned out.

  7. #57
    Great Puma (Level 12) JSoup's Avatar
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    Lovely. When this whole thing started, I figured I'd read the regular comic and whatever related thing Pender's put out (aside from his questionable art style, I do generally enjoy his writing), but now I'm not so sure. Forcing a break in the story, a story that has been chugging along at an amazing pace since Ian took over, just to do a retelling of previous material doesn't strike me as something I should support. I imagine I'm not alone in this.

    I recall having a brief IRC discussion with some guys over at RetroSonic last spring about this. Pender's had stated on his forums that he had vastly more fans in the Sonic fandom that people wanted to admit and that his book would sell fine whenever he decided to put it out. I had suggested that all of the major Sonic fansite get together and hold a public poll, "Will you be buying Pender's new book?", then pull a statistic from all the results. Basically, call Pender's bluff.




  8. #58
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    There's finally some new reports on the situation, but it doesn't sound good:

    http://www.tssznews.com/2013/03/27/a...opyright-case/

    I'll say this though: if things do end up badly for Archie, I'm glad I own most of the stuff Ken wrote/drew.

    EDIT: A few members on Ian Flynn's message board pointed out that the info in the TSSZ article is apparently several months old. Basically, since the dismissal never happened in January, it might be a good sign.
    Last edited by SEGA_Queen; 03-27-2013 at 03:44 PM.

  9. #59
    Great Puma (Level 12) JSoup's Avatar
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    I feel like I missed a step here. Why is that even an issue when Penders/Archie already reached a settlement?




  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSoup View Post
    I feel like I missed a step here. Why is that even an issue when Penders/Archie already reached a settlement?
    Well, the way I understand it is that Archie and Penders came to an agreement on the specific terms during their Dec. 2012 meeting. However, they didn't actually finalize the settlement at that time.

    According to today's TSSZ article, the reason why they haven't done so is because the two parties can't agree on one specific point in the terms. Namely, the fact that Penders creations look like knockoffs of Sega's designs for Knuckles.

  11. #61
    Great Puma (Level 12) JSoup's Avatar
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    Seems Penders is trying to halt the release of Knuckles Archive 4 and Archie has until Tuesday to get back to them about it.

    http://www.tssznews.com/2013/04/19/p...al-in-dispute/

    Also, I've been curious as to the extent of SEGA's power here. They secured copyrights months ago to make sure this doesn't happen again. But did they secure the rights to published derivative works? If they did, they might be able to help Archie end-around Penders.
    Last edited by JSoup; 04-20-2013 at 09:56 AM.




  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSoup View Post
    Seems Penders is trying to halt the release of Knuckles Archive 4 and Archie has until Tuesday to get back to them about it.

    http://www.tssznews.com/2013/04/19/p...al-in-dispute/

    Also, I've been curious as to the extent of SEGA's power here. They secured copyrights months ago to make sure this doesn't happen again. But did they secure the rights to published derivative works? If they did, they might be able to help Archie end-around Penders.
    Well Penders (and his posse) have claimed that you can't copyright a certain "style", which is true. However, trademark law does have section about "consumer confusion".

    Basically, if Sega believes that Ken's comic & characters are being mistaken as an official licensed product, then they could theoretically sue Ken. But before they can do anything, they have to prove that there actually is consumer confusion.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by SEGA_Queen View Post
    But before they can do anything, they have to prove that there actually is consumer confusion.
    Too bad this all didn't come up in the 90s, when we had a million Knuckles clones running around enacting drama, eh? I imagine there was a fair amount of confusion with younger readers at the time (I know I at least had difficulty keeping up with the names and who was who without keeping notes....or at least having back issues near by).
    Last edited by JSoup; 04-21-2013 at 03:46 PM.




  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSoup View Post
    Too bad this all didn't come up in the 90s, when we had a million Knuckles clones running around enacting drama, eh? I imagine there was a fair amount of confusion with younger readers at the time (I know I at least had difficulty keeping up with the names and who was who without keeping notes....or at least having back issues near by).
    To clarify further, in order for Sega to successfully sue Ken for "consumer confusion", they would have to prove that their characters (in this case Knuckles) have a "secondary meaning". This refers to the legal doctrine that when a consumer sees the particular character, it associates it with a particular source.*

    Of course the best example would be Mickey Mouse.* Everyone on the planet knows that that character stems from a particular source…Disney.* To the same extent would be Bugs Bunny, the source being Warner Bros.* This secondary meaning then allows the consumer to know that when he or she sees or relates to that character, that the particular source is behind it, either directly or through some quality-controlled licensing arrangement.

    Credit for the above information goes to author of this article: http://www.ivanhoffman.com/characters.html

  15. #65
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    It might be difficult for Sega to implicitly prove such a thing, but I'm sure such a thing did happen during the days of nothing but Knuckles related stories.


    In other news, Archie is challenging Penders motion to prevent sales of Knuckles Archive 4 on the grounds that he hasn't and won't be able to prove his copyright over anything. They even brought in an issue of Knuckles (apparently the only one noted in the original copyright claim, which seems odd to me) and showing inconsistencies between what has been copyrighted and what is actually there.

    http://www.tssznews.com/2013/04/25/a...opyright-case/




  16. #66
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    So, Sega formally stepped into this mess last week and apparently had a stern conversation with both sides:

    http://www.tssznews.com/2013/05/07/s...ers-mediation/

    And it's having both good and bad results.

    http://www.tssznews.com/2013/05/10/a...e-a-fine-mess/

    Sega getting involved might help bring this matter to a close, but it also might result in the comic taking more damage.




  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSoup View Post
    So, Sega formally stepped into this mess last week and apparently had a stern conversation with both sides:

    http://www.tssznews.com/2013/05/07/s...ers-mediation/

    And it's having both good and bad results.

    http://www.tssznews.com/2013/05/10/a...e-a-fine-mess/

    Sega getting involved might help bring this matter to a close, but it also might result in the comic taking more damage.
    I was almost literally face-palming after reading the court transcript. Archie's lawyer is only now realizing two things that the fanbase had figured out ages ago:

    1) That Ken's characters could be considered derivatives of Sega's stuff, and

    2) That the licensing contract between Archie and Sega might have a section stating who owns the copyrights to what's published in the in comic. (In other words, the statement "Sega owns everything in the comic" might actually be true.)

    Seriously, if Sega and Archie had just worked together from the start, they probably could have curb stomped Ken by now.

  18. #68
    Great Puma (Level 12) JSoup's Avatar
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    At this point, I don't think it'll matter much, the damage to the comic has been done. I haven't read any of the cross-over yet, but others are telling me that the story is pointing towards a soft-retcon in August that will probably remove whatever is left of Penders's contributions.




  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSoup View Post
    At this point, I don't think it'll matter much, the damage to the comic has been done. I haven't read any of the cross-over yet, but others are telling me that the story is pointing towards a soft-retcon in August that will probably remove whatever is left of Penders's contributions.
    Yeah, that's the vibe I'm getting too. It would have been nice to see a proper resolution to the whole "Naugus possessing Geoffrey's body" plot, but I'm totally expecting the Genesis Wave to separate the two of them offscreen.

    On the plus side, Ian the rest of the Archie crew should have more than enough time to make the story coherent. So it shouldn't be as jarring as Endangered Species was.

  20. #70
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    I'm surprised that nothing has come up yet, it's been just a tad over a month now I think.




  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSoup View Post
    I'm surprised that nothing has come up yet, it's been just a tad over a month now I think.
    Well, according to Ken' latest blog, the trial is over and he'll be moving forward with the Lara-Su Chronicles.

    http://www.kenpenders.com/forums/vie...php?f=9&t=2546

    My reaction: It's about freaking time! At this point, I don't care if Ken's characters are stripped from the book. As long as the comic isn't cancelled in the process, and Ian still gives us some decent stories, then I'll be happy.

  22. #72
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    Hmm. :/

    I've been in two minds about this from the start. On the one hand, I want to see Penders fail on the grounds of not fucking up the comic (that whole thing I posted about video game comics being a hard sell from earlier on in the thread). But then, him losing makes it harder for the next guy to get paid and encourages Archie to continue being contract trolls because "well, hey, we got away with it once!"

    I'll probably read Penders's thing along with Archie's. Sonic has never been a better book and Penders's stories are pretty damn good, even when removed from Sonic completely. There is a possibility that Penders didn't completely win out, a few changes to this and that will make Lara-Su completely publishable without screwing with copyright. Guess we'll have to wait and see.




  23. #73
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    So that's that. Looks like the court dismissed both sides arguments.

    http://www.tssznews.com/2013/07/02/j...-penders-case/

    Ian Flynn had a few comments:

    http://www.tssznews.com/2013/07/03/f...rs-settlement/

    Now we just have to read the books and see the damage. :/




  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSoup View Post
    So that's that. Looks like the court dismissed both sides arguments. Now we just have to read the books and see the damage. :/
    I'm actually curious to see whether Ken was forced to change his character designs for the LSC. That was the one thing that was delaying the finalization of the agreement until now. Guess we'll have to wait until next week when gives another update.

  25. #75
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    Well, this could have been worse. It seems that Penders series is picking up right after the events of Sonic #144 (end of Mobius: 25 Years Later) and will deal with the non-main cast. Seems that he isn't going to go out of his way to screw with the current Archie continuity.

    So, supplemental reading, which is the best you could hope for. While his art leaves something to be desired, I remain that Penders is a decent writer. I think I can live with this.

    http://www.tssznews.com/2013/07/11/p...s-ive-created/




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