If this practice became common I wonder how it would affect game rarity down the road.Originally Posted by Oobgarm
If this practice became common I wonder how it would affect game rarity down the road.
This was before. I imagined the people who liked that stuff in those days would like it now, too.
But in my opinion, he's putting entirely too much effort into the goodies instead of, you know, the game itself.
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I meant the newer games suck ass and having developed good older games doesn't mean that his newer games will be any good. I like Maniac Mansion and Monkey Island.
Everything in the above post is opinion unless stated otherwise.
To be fair, marketing can play a huge part in a game's success or failure. Creative ways to get your product to stand out among the sea of similarly themed titles can be extremely important. In some ways, putting effort into the goodies over the game (although it doesn't have to be a zero sum game either) might actually be the best course of action if the game will have trouble selling itself on it's own merits. And on the PSP, it just might.
Opps. My bad. Didn't realize this was the shit on Vic Ireland thread.
Well, it's more contributing to the idea than to the man itself. That's the sentiment I'm reading from the comments at Kickstarter and even if it fails, it's feels like the next non-tradition avenue for gamers hungering for good games to be part of the process that 95% of the industry has flat out ignored and/or underestimated for the last 28 years. With 300K+ pre-orders rumors for Xenoblade looming abound (200K according to VGchartz), this "lost" market is becoming a growing presence day by day possibly beyond what Operation Rainfall aspired as there's already talk about getting Fatal Frame IV/2 Remake over here by building awareness of Spirit Camera in hope the sales will warrant FF's localization in the states.
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Is the industry really ignoring "good games" though? I mean Class of Heroes was released for the PSP and it wasn't a financial success, at least not enough to justify a follow-up release from Atlus. Frankly, I bought it at launch for full price and played it for a few hours and then never played it again. It just wasn't a great game IMHO. Many of the commenters on the Kickstarter site and on other message boards seem to agree.
It seems like we are getting tons of obscure and niche games from publishers like Atlus, Aksys, Ignition, NIS, Rising Star which is now going to be releasing Cave shooters over here, Xseed and several others. Heck, even Bandai Namco is getting into the swing of it with Dark Souls. There are also lots of opportunities for digital only releases on services like XBL and PSN. Sure, there will always be games that never make it over from Japan, but there are also lots of really bad and mediocre Japanese titles that have limited appeal to any audience. It's really no different than any other product like movies, magazines, books, etc...Not everything is always going to get a worldwide release and generally, if something has mass appeal or at least can result in profitability, it will eventually make it out over here.
The reality is that videogames are a business and while Kickstarter has been interesting over these past few campaigns, there are other ways to do the same thing which don't involve paying large percentages to Kickstarter, paying taxes on the contributions and everything else that essentially sucks up the same amount of money as a distributor might on a more traditional release. My big concern with this specific campaign is that the company already has funded or has funds to do the digital release. All they are really looking to do is to make a few small changes to the save system and the controls and then create a deluxe physical release. That doesn't require $500K or a Kickstarter campaign. They could have simply taken pre-paid orders at $60 a pop and gone from there. It's not like they are building something from the ground up which is what both the Double Fine and the Wasteland 2 campaigns agreed to do. Essentially, they are asking for our support so they can avoid any risk with sticking some swag crap in a box for the release. That's not exactly the kind of thing that's going to convince anyone to invest more in obscure niche releases since most video game companies don't make their money off the swag, they make it off the software itself.
Beggars can't be choosers. It's an unfortunate reality but small publishers don't get the pick of the litter. While you're always trying to make sure to avoid picking up genuine crap, sometimes you have to pick from the leftovers that might fall short of AAA, the games that nobody else wants and can be licensed on the cheap. Working Designs itself dealt with this when they localized the likes of Vay and Albert Odyssey. Hardly great games but you do your best and hopefully get more out of it than you sunk in and just maybe if it works out you'll have better options down the line. And that's arguably why Victor Ireland is pushing deluxe packaging and all the bells and whistles. It's very easy for an ok game to get completely lost in the shuffle. What are you supposed to do to stand out if you know the only games available to you are merely decent?
Last edited by TonyTheTiger; 03-29-2012 at 05:19 PM.
Sure, but that's my point. The market already dictates that many good niche games get released over here and the ones that aren't as good ultimately don't. The great thing about digital services is that titles that may only sell thousands of copies can become financially viable based on a revenue sharing model and by minimizing localization costs and cutting out the physical distribution costs. Yes, as a collector I don't like it, but as a gamer it's really pretty perfect.
Let's be honest, whether this campaign fails or succeeds, Vic and his start-up are not going to change the way the industry operates. Trying to make up for the fact that you have a mediocre game by slapping a bunch of mediocre game related swag in a box and then going the extra step of asking people to take away all the risk by covering your costs up front isn't a sustainable model. The next game he does if this one gets fully funded will also be a lower end title because ultimately, if the market is proven to be there, bigger developers will keep stepping in and releasing stuff just like Bandai Namco did with Dark Souls.
Working Designs was a great company at a time when the industry was less willing to take risks with Japanese product. Thankfully, those days are largely over and there are many, many companies out there who do the same thing WD used to but in many cases better and without the silly Westernization that he is talking about doing to this particular release. Has everyone all of a sudden forgotten about his Clinton jokes or OJ references in games? It's not like he respected the integrity of the original product with any great discipline.
This method isn't for "good" niche games. It best fits the exceptionally out there ideas. Those serious risky games most people outside fan circles would never buy. If hear about at all. Letting companies more directly gauge users' financial interest in a project.
With the traditional preorder model, usually it's too late to back out. The company has already spent many resources on development and licensing first. Only in rare cases do they cancel a game once preorders are open or even shipped to stores. We don't need an NBA Elite 11 repeat. Besides there's no telling how many preorders placed will be picked up.
Lum fan.
Sure, but a company can always do what anime publishers and even companies like Studio 38 just did with Amalur and require that the collector's editions be paid off 3-4 months in advance. That way, they know exactly how many to press in advance of the 4-6 week lead time needed to create various promo items and packaging.
No it doesn't. The market dictates what will more than likely get sales, not whether the game is any good or not. There is a lot of shit that's on all consoles and portables this gen, more than any other generation. Like many other generations, there's a lot of great games that don't get released here, some of which I've played, others of which are quite obvious as they're practically the same game with revions of others that I've played. Most are PSP games, but there are DS and PS3 games as well. A lot of these games are much better than most of the games that we do receive.
Dark Souls didn't come to the US by Namco Bandai deciding to get into releasing niche titles, it came to the US because Namco Bandai wanted a western style franchise that didn't bomb like the previous four from western developers.The next game he does if this one gets fully funded will also be a lower end title because ultimately, if the market is proven to be there, bigger developers will keep stepping in and releasing stuff just like Bandai Namco did with Dark Souls.
Everything in the above post is opinion unless stated otherwise.
Oh right. Afro Samurai trying to start a new publishing label failed terribly at doing that sort of thing.
Lum fan.
I always find it fascinating when people make this claim that there is this vast supply of great games out there that never get localized. When you then ask them for some examples, it's always some obscure JRPG or other niche Japanese title that probably didn't even sell well in Japan and which is another rehash of the same old formula. Are there some great games that never get localized? Certainly. Are there tons? Nope.
The video game business is probably the most globally oriented of all mass media with the possible exception of films and even then, the distribution usually flows from the US to the rest of the world and far less frequently the other way. Many of the top developers and two of the three major manufacturers of hardware are Japanese companies. A significant percentage of games on every platform except perhaps the Xbox 360 and to a lesser extent the PS3 are developed by Japanese companies. Simply put, publishers publish what will sell and be profitable. Any business with any goal other than that is headed for bankruptcy and is not a business at all. Fortunately, gamers are smart consumers and generally buy games that are great. Poor quality games just don't sell well. Word of mouth ends up killing them. Just ask Acclaim and more recently THQ which is hovering the bankruptcy drain.
Namco Bandai picked up Dark Souls because Atlus did tremendously well in the US with the earlier game Demon's Souls. I don't see how you can argue that either game is a Western oriented game. They are niche to an extreme and yet because they are great games, they both sold quite well.
Xenoblade Chronicles, Last Story, Pandora's Tower, Trace Memory R, Day of Disaster, Night of the Sacrifice, Reginliev, Fatal Frame 4, Fatal Frame 2 Remake, Sky Rodea, Earth Seeker, Megaman Legends 3, Ace Attorney Investigations 2, Valkyrie Chronicles 3, Nightmare Busters, Policenauts, Mr. Gimmick, Trip World, U-four-ia, Kid Dracula (NES), Baby Upa, Penguin Dream Adventures, Twinbee, Parodius, Gradius II, Moon Crystal, Adventure Island II, Chronicle of Radia War, Super Mario Bros 2: Lost Levels, Final Fantasy 2, Final Fantasy 3, Mother, etc. So, the answer is your question: hell yeah!
I mean if it weren't, then Operation Rainfall wouldn't need to exist would it?
Yeah, after Atlus did all the heavy-lifting work for them on Demon's Souls, thank you very much. Next time maybe Namco should ask Mayor Quinby to be their new mascot.
Yet they still donated. Evidently, some have given upwards to $1000. So it proves my point that it's more than about the game and getting swag. It's more of an avenue of outcry for these gamers cause they think no one is listening to them. The fact Operation Rainfall resorted to metaphorically kicking down the door screaming to lay a huge sack of money at Nintendo's feet just to localize a trio of RPGs, practically ready for American markets on a sliver platter, is a colossal joke.
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It's not really fair to answer that question with 25 years worth of history. Lord knows that far more quirky Japanese games end up here today than ever before. He's absolutely right that the playing field as it is today is far more conducive to good games finding their way here in some form or another than it was in the past. It ends up meaning that if Victor Ireland wants to continue in the Working Designs tradition, he's probably going to have a much harder time landing another Lunar, Popful Mail, or even Rayearth. For a small publisher, these diamonds in the rough are harder to come by these days.
You've listed a ton of games that have either already been released in the US (albeit not on their original platform) or are planned for US release or haven't been released anywhere and therefore nobody knows if they would be great or not. Seriously, Megaman Legends 3? Day of Disaster and Trace Memory R? Talk about games that could have been great but turned out mediocre despite all the hype. I have both from the UK and I can honestly say we missed nothing by not getting them over here.
I don't want to burst your bubble, but Operation Rainfall didn't cause Xenoblade and Last Story to get a US release. Gamestop and Xseed and Nintendo knowing that there was profit to be made are the only ones responsible for that decision and ultimately it was a business decision because they are great games which will sell. When those two games sell significant numbers, I'm sure Pandora's Tower will be close behind.
You're right, Atlus did all the heavy lifting, but it doesn't change the fact that Namco recognized a good game coupled with a good business model and made it an even larger success.
You can make the Kickstarter campaign about whatever you want, but I would encourage you to study what his business plan is stated to be and the terms and conditions Kickstarter requires when using its services. The money can only be used for this game, not general development of other titles. As such, it will have zero impact on getting other games released from your list and its not going to encourage Nintendo or Capcom or any of the other IP holders of many of the games below to suddenly open the flood gates of niche titles. The point is, this campaign wasn't well planned, it's not even backing something people desire and frankly, I'll go out on a limb here and predict it won't meet its goal, thus doing more damage than good when other companies realize that there isn't some huge groundswell out there for niche mediocre games.
I think most have already figured that out. The sea of generic anime titles is probably not moving large numbers. Atlus saw this back on the PS2 with games like Metal Saga and Steambot Chronicles. That seems to be part of why Disgaea was such a surprise. The runaway success stories are rare and when they do happen the publisher can easily lose out on the sequels (which also happened). I don't think anybody anywhere doesn't already know that these games have limited appeal. NISA tried a preorder stunt with Holy Invasion of Privacy, Badman in an effort to gauge interest in a physical release. It failed, apparently miserably so. Victor Ireland is doing essentially the same thing except using Kickstarter instead. Maybe there's reason to argue that Kickstarter is worse for something like this. That could be true. But if it fails it won't be telling people anything they don't already know.
Last edited by TonyTheTiger; 03-30-2012 at 12:22 AM.
There may not be tons, but there are more than a few. If you look back at Namco Bandai before the merger, Bandai released a hell of a lot of Gundam titles in the west. Some weren't really good, but most were. Aside from Gundam Crossfire which sucks total ass, the only Gundam games that have made way outside of Japan are Koei titles. Dynasty Warriors Gundam, bullshit.
But you want a list, I'll list games that I've played. Gundam Battle/Royale, Chronicles, and Universe. All great games, there's also Tactics and the other one with Seed characters, but I haven't played those. Gundam vs Gundam, Gundam Extreme Vs, The newer Gihren's Greed games(Advance Wars with Gundam,) etc. There's a lot of good Gundam games, and while you may or may not be a fan, that doesn't change the fact that these games are very good. But hey, maybe you don't want to see a list of Gundam games, so here are non Gundam games I've played.
Black Panther Yakuza Demo(amazing,) Jump Ultimate Stars, Fist of the North Star Arc System Works(PS2,) and Tales of Phantasia X. That's really about all I've played though, because I'm not too big on importing or playing games unless I understand the text. If the games not text heavy, which is why there are so many Gundam games, then I really don't care and will play them no problem. You might ask why I list Tales of Phantasia X though? The PSP version is a much improved version over even the PSX version. It's like comparing how Street Fighter 2 plays to Street Fighter Alpha 3 with infinite V-Ism. It's that much of an improvement.
Games that I want to play and I probably won't ever unless they're translated? Retro Game Challenge 2, Half Minute Hero 2, Tales of Destiny 2(PS2 or PSP,) Tales of Destiny Director's Cut(PS2,) Black Panther Yakuza(full game obviously,) Black Panther Yakuza 2, Valkyria Chronicles 3, Phantasy Star Portable Infinite, The Little Battlers, Sora no Kiseki SC, Sora no Kiseki TC, Zero no Kiseki, Zwei!!, Brandish Dark Revenant, the new Suikoden PSP game, Final Fantasy Type 0, and Shining Blade.
These are only games that I know of or are the only ones I can really think of off the top of my head. While it doesn't mean that there's a long list of games that might be better than these games I've listed, it also doesn't mean there's not a list of amazing games I may have not have heard about, etc. Still, missing out on 30 games that are good/more than likely good unless importing is a big number.
Everything in the above post is opinion unless stated otherwise.
According the Nintendo of France....
So yeah. Nintendo of America didn't want to localize Xenoblade Chronicles given
a) They showcased Xenoblade (aka Monado) at E3 2009 but not for following years at E3 2010 and 2011
b) NoE was handling the translation first, not NoA
c) NoA themselves saying they didn't think it was going to "sell".
Thus, if Nintendo of America weren't officially releasing Xenoblade, no way in hell we were getting Last Story or Pandora Tower. Hence, thanks to Operation Rainfall's efforts, not solely Nintendo's, in approx. one week, North American gamers will have their hands on a copy of Xenoblade Chronicles, a game one year ago Nintendo didn't believe was worth it. With the Last Story coming in June and Pandora' Tower now a possibility.
So, your assumption Operation Rainfall didn't do anything was a big, fat false. Second, your logic that Nintendo wanted Xenoblade and Last Story cause they were "great games" was proven wrong. Third, it shows one example why the modern video game industry is so messed up that a whole market is ignored thanks to some bean-counter in a corporate suit in his high office in his ivory tower somewhere is so tone-deaf and ignorant of gamer culture that they thought Fortune Street was a viable venture than Xenoblade. (For the record, Fortune Street sales = 120k, Xenoblade pre-orders = 170K. Suck it, corporate idiot.)
Then why didn't Namco outbid Atlus for Demon's Souls too? Cause Namco never thought it was a good venture until after it sold over a million overseas and now look like the dam bloodsucking parasites that they are for snatching Dark Souls from Atlus' rightful hands, after the fact. Once again, you're dam wrong. It ain't about the games....."it's the money, Lebowski."
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