WD's Victor Ireland is Back! (Oh, And He Wants Half-A-Million Bucks.)

[TonyTheTiger]

I don't get the impression that this was specifically about Class of Heroes II. It seems to me that he wants to get back into the physical market. Making the jump from digital releases to physical ones is tough. Now maybe he can work baby steps and build capital through digital games to, at some point, enter the physical market with perhaps a better title he'd acquire with that capital. This project seems to have been an attempt to circumvent that process had there been the interest. Regardless of this particular failure, it doesn't mean the opportunity will never present itself down the line. It just means Ireland can't do it right this very minute with this very game.

Kickstarter itself probably muddied the issue, too. 7000 preorders is a lot but that number, at least, does not sound especially unreachable. The problem with Kickstarter is that it can be somewhat wishy washy and off putting to people not familiar with it. First, you have to actually register. The attrition rate of potentially interested people is probably shockingly high right at the gate for that very reason. Then you have the trouble of dealing with different dollar values with how much each person is asked to invest and also what the investment is specifically for. Consumers aren't in the business of investing in game companies and parsing all that. They're in the business of buying games. If Victor had promoted a simple preorder program with a flat cost (pretty much what Super Fighter Team does) with the caveat that the project will only go forward if the 7000 goal is met, it might have seen better performance. It may not have hit the 7000 but it probably would have gotten a hell of a lot closer if it were a program specifically tailored to simply selling the game to people accustomed to buying games.

[wingzrow]

You would think he would have tried localizing valkyria chronicles 3 or one of the monster hunter games. At least those games had an established fanbase.

[TonyTheTiger]

It's not so simple. Just because he may want a game doesn't mean he can get it. First, the original publisher may want too much for it. Second, they may not want to deal with a third party at all. Do you really think Sega or Capcom are going to give anything more than a "thanks but no thanks" to a small fry publisher?

[Bojay1997]

That was the biggest problem from my perspective. He kept making vague promises about other physical releases, none of which there was any evidence he could deliver, but everyone was required to buy or at least contribute to a deluxe edition of a game very few people wanted to purportedly move his plans forward in that way. As I expressed early on, I don't agree that Kickstarter is a proper vehicle for commercial projects of this type. It would have been very easy for him to simply open up a pre-order process on a website or even through Amazon marketplace and just take orders for the game at $60 a pop pre-paid. If he hit his target number, it moved forward and if not, it didn't. He already said the game is going to get a digital release, so other than collecting the pre-order money for the physical version, there wasn't really a need to start a campaign of this type despite his vague references to adding voice over and a few other features if the project funded.

I don't agree with you that Kickstarter places too many barriers for people to contribute or that it's confusing. Tens of thousands of people contributed to Wasteland 2, Double Fine, Banner Saga, Jane Jensen, Leisure Suit Larry, etc...Yes, not everyone has a credit card and not everyone likes using Amazon payments, but more than enough JRPG fans certainly could have made this happen if they really cared about it. Unfortunately, very few people did and ultimately, that's why it failed.

I don't get the impression that this was specifically about Class of Heroes 2. It seems to me that he wants to get back into the physical market. Making the jump from digital releases to physical ones is tough. Now maybe he can work baby steps and build capital through digital games to, at some point, enter the physical market with perhaps a better title he'd acquire with that capital. This project seems to have been an attempt to circumvent that process had there been the interest. Regardless of this particular failure, it doesn't mean the opportunity will never present itself down the line. It just means Ireland can't do it right this very minute with this very game.

Kickstarter itself probably muddied the issue. 7000 preorders is a lot but that number, at least, does not sound especially unreachable. The problem with Kickstarter is that it can be somewhat wishy washy. First, you have to actually register. The attrition rate of potentially interested people is probably shockingly high right at the gate for that very reason. Then you have the trouble of dealing with different dollar values with how much each person is asked to invest and also what the investment is specifically for. Consumers aren't in the business of investing in game companies and parsing all that. They're in the business of buying games. If Victor had promoted a simple preorder program with a flat cost (pretty much what Super Fighter Team does) with the caveat that the project will only go forward if the 7000 goal is met, it might have seen better performance. It may not have hit the 7000 but it probably would have gotten a hell of a lot closer if it were a program specifically tailored to simply selling the game to people accustomed to buying games.

[wingzrow]

It's not so simple. Just because he may want a game doesn't mean he can get it. First, the original publisher may want too much for it. Second, they may not want to deal with a third party at all. Do you really think Sega or Capcom are going to give anything more than a "thanks but no thanks" to a small fry publisher?

I don't understand how these companies work to be honest. Why not? It's brand recognition, they don't have waste resources on it, the fans get what they want, the developer gets money. The only case I can think of where this might be a bad idea is when a game already has too much saturation, but this late in a system's life I can see why in this specific case it wouldn't work.

He should have tried this a few years ago, when the PSP still had some steam.

[j_factor]

In the end, he picked the wrong game

I think this is the bottom line. Class of Heroes just wasn't a very good game. He should have found something better.

[TonyTheTiger]

Nah, because it shouldn't be about JRPG fans jumping through the Kickstarter hoop to make something happen. It should be about selling a game to people regardless of their implicit associations. JRPG fans want to buy RPGs, not invest in RPG companies. Therefore, you don't gauge interest by asking them to navigate perhaps unfamiliar channels like Kickstarter. You will lose people just from that. The act of having to register is a seemingly small barrier but you'd be amazed at how many people look at "register username/password" pages and say "eh, fuck it." You can just look at any website's stats to see for yourself. The difference between "number of users online" vs. "registered users online" can be tremendous at times.

And then, of course, there is the simple fact that when presented with Kickstarter you aren't immediately made aware that you are going to acquire the game as a result of investing a certain amount. You have to read the page for that. TL;DR is not just a euphamism. Think of how many "JRPG fans" would have had to register and invest to hit $500,000 if they were hitting the smaller "support" amounts like $20. That number is staggering. Meanwhile, putting out a $60 preorder campaign with no Kickstarter funny business is simple, direct, and makes clear exactly what the deal is.

Essentially, I think Victor Ireland may have been too up front about things. People don't really want or need to know what he plans to do in the future or where the dollars are going. They just want to buy games. And Kickstarter made it somewhat difficult to make clear that, yes, you are being offered the opportunity to buy the game. In fact, that's why the number is so skewed in favor of the higher amounts. Of the people who did jump through the hoops, the overwhelming majority decided to use it as essentially a preorder process anyway. So why the extra hurdles? It's like GameStop asking people to preorder games and then making them complete a Sudoku puzzle before they can actually pay for it. You're going to lose a lot of people that way.

Yes, maybe the game itself just wasn't right for the project. But using Kickstarter must have made it worse. And this is coming from a guy who did invest ($59 option).

I don't understand how these companies work to be honest. Why not? It's brand recognition, they don't have waste resources on it, the fans get what they want, the developer gets money. The only case I can think of where this might be a bad idea is when a game already has too much saturation, but this late in a system's life I can see why in this specific case it wouldn't work.

He should have tried this a few years ago, when the PSP still had some steam.

Well, to put it in perspective, Victor Ireland got his start by making unsolicited calls to Japanese publishers and simply bothering them nonstop until they stopped saying no. So even in the early 90s it wasn't so easy. Today? It's probably exponentionally harder.

[Bojay1997]

I'm guessing you haven't been following all of the Kickstarter games that have fully funded and over funded since Double Fine? Shadowrun, Banner Saga, Wasteland 2 all brought in far more than they asked for and Leisure Suit Larry is within $50K of its $500K goal with nine days to go. People have no problems contributing if it's something they want and contrary to your assertions, I think gamers are among the most progressive/forward thinking and tech savvy of anyone out there in society. Sure, some people are put off by privacy concerns or having to register or needing a credit card, but let's be honest, if you pre-order games on Amazon or any other on-line site, the process is identical. The only people excluded by Kickstarter are those who regularly walk into Gamestop with cash to pre-order or never pre-order anything and while that's some percentage of JRPG fans, it's not most of them.

I also don't think Kickstarter is all that confusing. If done correctly, it's very clear what you will receive if the project funds for your contribution. Personally, I have contributed to Double Fine, Shadowrun, Wasteland 2, Leisure Suit Larry, Jane Jenson and even this doomed project. I'm not confused in any way by what happens if the project funds. It states very clearly what you will get when you confirm your contribution as well as clearly laying it out along the right side of the description when you browse Kickstarter.

Finally, Vic was not clear enough in my opinion. Many people who contributed did so to support the general idea of localizing more games in physical release deluxe versions. I don't know many people who stated that they really cared about Class of Heroes II in any way. I can only imagine how many hundred fewer contributions there would have been if it was literally just Class of Heroes II that Vic was talking about. Having said that, I think trying to promote this release based on non-specific future releases was dishonest at best as ultimately, it's not clear that even if this funded that Vic would be able to convince other publishers or developers to license games for similar campaigns.

I do agree with you that a simple pre-order campaign would have been better and perhaps more successful, but ultimately, it also would have failed unfortunately given the current PSP user base and the general lack of interest in this particular game series.

Nah, because it shouldn't be about JRPG fans jumping through the Kickstarter hoop to make something happen. It should be about selling a game to people regardless of their implicit associations. The act of having to register is a seemingly small barrier but you'd be amazed at how many people look at "register username/password" pages and say "eh, fuck it." You can just look at any website's stats to see for yourself. The difference between "number of users online" vs. "registered users online" can be tremendous at times.

And then, of course, there is the simple fact that when presented with Kickstarter you aren't immediately made aware that you are going to acquire the game as a result of investing a certain amount. You have to read the page for that. TL;DR is not just a euphamism. Think of how many "JRPG fans" would have had to register and invest to hit $500,000. Unless there are an inordinate of very well off people willing to drop a grand each, the number is staggering. Meanwhile, putting out a $60 preorder campaign with no Kickstarter funny business is simple, direct, and makes clear exactly what the deal is.

Essentially, I think Victor Ireland may have been too up front about things. People don't really want or need to know what he plans to do in the future. They just want to buy games. And Kickstarter made it somewhat difficult to make clear that, yes, you are being offered the opportunity to buy the game.

Yes, maybe the game itself just wasn't right for the project. But using Kickstarter certainly didn't help.



Well, to put it in perspective, Victor Ireland got his start by making unsolicited calls to Japanese publishers and simply bothering them nonstop until they stopped saying no. So even in the early 90s it wasn't so easy. Today? It's probably exponentionally harder.

[TonyTheTiger]

Again, the difference between those other games is that there seems to be a clearer reason to use Kickstarter as opposed to some other method. And I still disagree about the Class of Heroes II project being anywhere near as well advertised as those. I just looked. Not seeing it.

If you're saying that the project would have failed no matter the method used, I'd concede that possibility, even perhaps likelihood. But if you're saying that it would have failed by as much as it did had it used a simpler method than Kickstarter, I vehemently disagree. I think Kickstarter took what was a very simple concept and made it needlessly complex. And that alone chases people away. It's not about understanding it. It's about not wanting to bother with it. Anybody will tell you that the more complex something becomes the more people will just lose interest. Make things as simple as they can realistically be is a virtue in everything under the sun. Tech savvy people are just as susceptible to it. Just let people buy the game and the numbers would have been higher. I don't know how much higher but they'd be higher.

[Press_Start]

I said it before in another thread and I'll say it again.

Vic Ireland should do what he does best....reviving old ass retro classics we never would got here in USA. Moon Crystal, Radia War, Super Adventure Island 4, Baby Upa, Kid Dracula, Sweet Home, Titan Warriors, Penguin Dream Adventures, Splatterhouse (NES), Robocco Wars, Getsu Fuma Den, Dragon Scroll, Silva Saga, Holy Diver, Nadia, Samurai Pizza Cats, Zombie Hunter, Secret Ties, Sunman, Solomon's Key 2, Bio Force Ape, King Kong, Mr. Gimmick, Twinbee, Greylancer, Battlemania 2, Monster World 4, F-Zero 2, Bahamut Lagoon, Clock Tower, King of Demons, The Firemen, Wonder Project J, Terranigma, Mystical Ninja 2 3 & 4, etc.

Best of all, no one's seriously tapped into this endless golden honeypot yet. Licensing probably far cheaper and the tinge of nostalgia for 8-bit/16-bit games would attract tons of old-school fans out of the woodwork to donate if physical carts were involved somewhat. I would anyway.

[Bojay1997]

I said it before in another thread and I'll say it again.

Vic Ireland should do what he does best....reviving old ass retro classics we never would got here in USA.

Licensing probably far cheaper and the tinge of nostalgia for 8-bit/16-bit games would attract tons of old-school fans out of the woodwork to donate if physical carts were involved somewhat. I would anyway.

I'm not following, when has Vic Ireland ever really focused on reviving old retro classics that were unreleased in the US? I know Gaijingames has worked with other companies to do digital releases of old WD games, but none of what they have re-released was ever unreleased in the US. With the exception of the Lunar remakes for PS1, everything WD ever localized was a current generation game. Also, how much money do you really think can be made releasing games very few people have ever heard of on long dead systems that most people don't have or care about on physical media? That's a niche of a niche of a niche if I've ever seen one.

[Bojay1997]

Again, the difference between those other games is that there seems to be a clearer reason to use Kickstarter as opposed to some other method. And I still disagree about the Class of Heroes II project being anywhere near as well advertised as those. I just looked. Not seeing it.

If you're saying that the project would have failed no matter the method used, I'd concede that possibility, even perhaps likelihood. But if you're saying that it would have failed by as much as it did had it used a simpler method than Kickstarter, I vehemently disagree. I think Kickstarter took what was a very simple concept and made it needlessly complex. And that alone chases people away. It's not about understanding it. It's about not wanting to bother with it. Anybody will tell you that the more complex something becomes the more people will just lose interest. Make things as simple as they can realistically be is a virtue in everything under the sun. Tech savvy people are just as susceptible to it. Just let people buy the game and the numbers would have been higher. I don't know how much higher but they'd be higher.

Where did you look? If you do a Google search with Class of Heroes II and Kickstarter, you will see the story was printed on literally hundreds of other sites including Wired magazine's video games site, Joystiq, Kotaku, Siliconera, Destructoid, Gamespot, G4, Neogaf, Cheap Ass Gamer, Pocket Gamer, Blu Ray Forums, a number of Anime sites and dozens of other publisher forums like NIS, Xseed, etc...Many of those sites even did follow-up stories. I guess I'm not aware of what other media could have been used other than print which frankly is a bit of a non-factor for short term projects like this given the huge lead times even today to get stuff printed and distributed. This project got a lot more buzz than Leisure Suit Larry and Jane Jensen both of which I found almost totally by accident on adventure gaming sites.

As for Kickstarter adding a layer of complexity, I disagree. If anything, it's too simple to donate as my credit card bill this month will attest. It's literally two clicks and a password entry and you are supporting the project. It was no more or less complex than pre-ordering a game on Amazon. I will agree that it adds an additional element of uncertainty because you don't know if the project will fund or not and you never really know when it will be delivered, but that's true of many niche titles anyway today as release dates are always changing and games still get cancelled from time to time. I'm not going to dispute that some people may have been put off by having to go through Kickstarter, but I just don't think most gamers are that lazy and they certainly are generous as has been proven time and time again with Child's Play, donations to the Classic Videogame Museum and other charitable projects. This was just not a well thought out project which was executed very poorly which in the end is why it failed.

[TonyTheTiger]

I think whenever you add needless extra layers and barriers, however small they may be, you increase the odds that interested people who'd have jumped on a simpler scheme will drop off the second you start compounding it. It's just human nature and it's not worth the risk. If the extra layers are necessary, fine. But if they aren't, you only stand to hurt yourself.

I'd argue another reason why some of those other Kickstarters are performing so much better (aside from the obvious name recognition). There seems to be much less at stake for Class of Heroes II. Class of Heroes II is still getting made regardless. The Kickstarter is for a bonus. That's going to reduce the urgency of it by a long shot. It becomes a niche of a niche. You're not attracting JRPG fans. You're attracting JRPG fans who give a shit about deluxe packaging. In other words, this Kickstarter has very little to do with the game itself. There is a major difference between "I'd like to play this game" and "I like this game SO much that I want it to have five star deluxe treatment instead of remain an ordinary digital download." If Victor had left all that out and just said "we want to get this game to you but need preorders to make it happen" it likely would have seen more people jumping on board than have here. As it stands, people who'd want Class of Heroes II (or whatever game it could have been, for that matter) aren't really losing anything by not participating. Most people are pretty OK with digital games.

[Press_Start]

I'm not following, when has Vic Ireland ever really focused on reviving old retro classics that were unreleased in the US? I know Gaijingames has worked with other companies to do digital releases of old WD games, but none of what they have re-released was ever unreleased in the US. With the exception of the Lunar remakes for PS1, everything WD ever localized was a current generation game. Also, how much money do you really think can be made releasing games very few people have ever heard of on long dead systems that most people don't have or care about on physical media? That's a niche of a niche of a niche if I've ever seen one.

Popful Mail, Lunar, Exile, Arc the Lad, etc. Sure they weren't "retro" at the time but they might well be considered "unreleased" if it weren't for Vic and WD. Hey, no one's heard of Class of Heroes 2 either, an average-looking sequel to an average-looking dungeon-crawler that, just on Victor Ireland's celebrity alone, garnered nearly $100K including a $10K donor, a $5K donor, over half a dozen grand donors, and dozens giving $200 or more. That's impressive for only a modern niche game in its own right.

Imagine starting a new Kickstarter, assuming better organization and moderately reasonable goals, for three awesome "Lost Classics" available for digital distribution (VC, XBLA, PSN, Steam, etc) AND....offering nostalgic bonuses like authentic NES grey cart copies, "Zelda" gold carts, CIB packages, CIB gold packages, etc. for each successful level. And don't say they can't, Bojay. Airline tickets, music boxes, engraved pocket watches....they were willing to go the distance. I can't say why not for this and think will be vastly more successful thanks to the thousands Japanese classics readily, cheaply available and simply taking advantage of the wave of nostalgia for 20s-30s that flourished within the last 5 years. Sure, it ain't a million sales winner but doesn't need to be.

[Bojay1997]

Well, they have heard of Class of Heroes which saw retail distribution as a result of Atlus publishing it a few years ago. Sure, in its time WD localized a number of niche current generation games that were unreleased in the US. I own a complete set of WD releases on every platform they ever supported, so I'm hardly unaware of their contribution. Today, there are lots of companies that do the same thing including Aksys, Atlus, Xseed, Rising Star Games and NIS. You can argue about this all you want, but they only secured around 750 people who actually committed to pay the $60+ it would have cost to obtain a physical copy of Class of Heroes II. While 750 people isn't insignificant, according to Mr. Ireland's own posts, he needed 7K people pre-ordering at $60 or above for the project to make financial sense. In that respect, the Kickstarter wasn't even close.

I agree that there is a market for niche digital games. A small market, but one that could be self-sustaining for a small publisher. Unfortunately, Vic and Gaijinworks aren't really that interested in supporting that market as his own comments on various sites in connection with this Kickstarter have shown. Vic is looking to release the same kind of physical collector's editions that WD was doing a decade ago. Unfortunately, he's a day late and many dollars short to the party.

Popful Mail, Lunar, Exile, Arc the Lad, etc. Sure they weren't "retro" at the time but they might well be considered "unreleased" if it weren't for Vic and WD. Hey, no one's heard of Class of Heroes 2 either, an average-looking sequel to an average-looking dungeon-crawler that, just on Victor Ireland's celebrity alone, garnered nearly $100K including a $10K donor, a $5K donor, over half a dozen grand donors, and dozens giving $200 or more. That's impressive for only a modern niche game in its own right.

Imagine starting a new Kickstarter, assuming better organization and moderately reasonable goals, for three awesome "Lost Classics" available for digital distribution (VC, XBLA, PSN, Steam, etc) AND....offering nostalgic bonuses like authentic NES grey cart copies, "Zelda" gold carts, CIB packages, CIB gold packages, etc. for each successful level. And don't say they can't, Bojay. Airline tickets, music boxes, engraved pocket watches....they were willing to go the distance. I can't say why not for this and think will be vastly more successful thanks to the thousands Japanese classics readily, cheaply available and simply taking advantage of the wave of nostalgia for 20s-30s that flourished within the last 5 years. Sure, it ain't a million sales winner but doesn't need to be.

[TonyTheTiger]

It might be in his best interest to branch out into internal development. I mean, yeah, keep plinking away for those Japanese diamonds in the rough but instead of putting all your eggs in that one basket maybe look to produce something original, or publish some games from up and coming American studios. Brand new games that have the Working Designs spirit from back in the day. If Studio Archcraft can create Black Sigil, an incredibly accurate recreation of the spirit of SNES era RPGs, and get it published on the Nintendo DS then I can't imagine Victor Ireland couldn't do something along the same lines. A game doesn't have to be legitimately Japanese in order to "feel" like a Working Designs game. And the end result could easily be far better than Class of Heroes II.

[Press_Start]

I agree that there is a market for niche digital games. A small market, but one that could be self-sustaining for a small publisher. Unfortunately, Vic and Gaijinworks aren't really that interested in supporting that market as his own comments on various sites in connection with this Kickstarter have shown. Vic is looking to release the same kind of physical collector's editions that WD was doing a decade ago. Unfortunately, he's a day late and many dollars short to the party.

Well, til I hear (or read) from his own mouth, hope springs eternal for me I guess. I mean the prospect seems tailor-made for Victor's rogue-like, "stand out in the masses" approach WD's infamous for. Like everyone's fighting over themselves grasping for as much gold as they can get their hands on even the clouds of gold dust while there's a huge silver mine a few miles down the road forgotten by time that no one's jumped on ready to be claimed on a silver platter per say. I think that's a perfect place for Victor or like-minded people savvy as him to make a name for themselves....again.

[TonyTheTiger]

We know for sure that collector's editions are still viable, perhaps more today than ever before. Victor seemed to imply in the AnimeNation interview that he just doesn't like the direction they've taken in that now most are either non-sets in that they don't give much of anything for a $20 markup or feature some obscene oversized crap for a $100 markup. The criticism is valid, I think. Collector's editions have gotten pretty ridiculous lately on all fronts and a good one is a welcome change of pace. The real issue isn't that the ship has sailed for his desire to bring good sets to store shelves. That's doable. The tough part are the types of games he wants to do it for.

This is compounded by the fact that he generally seems to prefer it when the collector's edition is the only edition (something retailers themselves don't like given limited shelf space). That means the game will be at least somewhat more expensive when stacked up against similarly themed titles sitting right next to it. Yes, it'll look nice and will hopefully stand out (which itself can increase sales) but if you're already marketing to a niche of a niche, particularly in a hobby where people are increasingly looking for cheaper options given the state of the economy, it's definitely going to be a tough sell.

[Bojay1997]

Sorry to necro bump, but there is a good chance of a limited physical release of Class of Heroes 2 happening. If you're interested, you can register at http://www.gaijinworks.com/ $35 for the game, manual and case plus a digital download sounds pretty fair for what could be the last UMD release for the PSP.

[xelement5x]

Here's the pertinent information for anyone interested:

If we can pre-sell at least 2,500 copies of a Physical PSP version with a color manual, UMD with color disc label, and a digital download code, we can do a physical+digital combo version for $34.99, shipped to you. At this time, all we want to do is gauge interest in this offering, so if you want to purchase this version were it made available, sign up using the form below with your email address, your name, and the number of copies you want. As an extra special thank-you, supporters of our Deluxe edition Kickstarter that did not fund will get a special UMD label art that's different from the general run.

AND

By signing up for this "Special" mailing list, I'm indicating I have the need and funds to know the satisfaction that comes from buying a physical version of Class of Heroes 2 for the PSP (with a digital download code included as well). If enough signups are made here for at least 2500 copies within the next 7-10 days, an official ordering link through Amazon Payments will be opened, the physical version of the game will be a go, and fans can reserve their copy or copies with the Amazon link.

The only thing that gets me that there is no way to purchase the other UMD variant. I'm sure many extras will be found in a closet 2 years later though