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Thread: VITA owners UNITE!

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    Quote Originally Posted by kupomogli View Post
    There are "ports" and "ports." Most PS3 games are 360 ports, yes, which you've explained, but what most people mean when they say "port" is just a rerelease. It's called a homonym.
    I don't know about most people, but when the term "port" is used in the video game industry, it has a pretty specific meaning and it's not how you have defined it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    Two years ago I would have fully agreed with you, but I now believe there is no doubt that the video gaming industry is changing (note, not crashing) and it is pretty inevitable that physical media and mid-budget niche titles are going to be the first casualties.
    We've been seeing the decline in games that you could categorize between budget and AAA for years now (It's why space shooters are gone, traditional rally racer's are almost gone, and countless other genres and franchises that used to enjoy healthy fringe lifes in this industry are gone). But I'm still far away from believing it could go away.

    If anything the longer generation we're now in, the time developers have had to become used to HD, and the growth in a few licensable engines that dominate much of the industry is going to help matters. It's pretty widely held that ballooning game development cost such as the adoption of HD were greatly responsible for this decline we saw this generation in particular when developers could no longer afford to go after smaller subsections of this industry when expected revenues and profits weren't rising in tune with cost. So the more that happens to help stabilize things is just going to help matters rather than hurt them if revenues have a chance to do a bit of catching up so you don't need a runaway hit just to make money from a project with a healthy sized budget.

    But that's not what I said. An increasingly number of people are now jumping off the deep end and proclaiming that AAA game development is an endangered species and that gaming in the future is going to be dominated by Angry Birds style experiences...

    And while I subscribe to it being inevitable that physical media is endangered, it's still going to require internet infrastructure to be in a certain state before it really becomes a possibility for the handheld and console world (Among a range of other things that have to gradually happen as well for it to be smoothly accepted). The fact that things like bandwidth caps are becoming more common and that many people are getting close to hitting them just by being an avid user of streamed standard definition video content from places like Netflix should suggests that the capacity for an all download future for videogaming is still quite some ways off.

    Yet we still get the nuts that suggest everytime when we get even a hint of a rumor of a console revision that Sony, Nintendo, or Microsoft will be doing it without an optical drive for existing platforms. And the same with upcoming platforms including the Wii U.

    The fact of the matter is the infrastructure to allow it just isn't in place yet and won't be for quite sometime. So that's our physical media guarantee for the next few years and at least through this upcoming console generation. I'm really quite sure it's not going to be this switch they just hit like some people seem to expect. There's no way we're going to go from physical game distribution being their primary distrbituion system one generation to being nonexistent the next.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    Heck, the new iMac doesn't even come with an optical drive.
    Computers are an entirely different matter. Consumers themselves have been abandoning optical drives in the computer world for years, file sizes are often reasonable enough for many programs where it's not a real problem even with bandwidth caps to download many programs, etc. And the convenience of Steam and the many inconveniences publishers like Ubisoft always seem to be placing upon their physical PC game releases has driven many devotees of PC gaming gradually towards downloads.

    And it hasn't been an overnight transition. It has been a long and gradual one with a long road ahead before 100% downloading and no optical drives becomes commonplace. And I expect the console world to do likewise. We saw the birth of digital distribution in the previous generation, we saw it grow into a practical and important secondary form of distribution with this current generation, and I expect we'll see it be on a equal footing with physical this upcoming generation (where it's confirmed on the Wii U and all but a guarantee on the Xbox 720 and Playstation 4).

    Then, I'm even willing to wager that physical media will have at least one more run out of the gate in the console world afterwards as a secondary distribution method while they convert the large minority that hasn't yet fully embraced downloading (With optical drives perhaps even being optional add-ons or nonstandard across all SKU's).

    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    I also don't see a viable path for handhelds 4-5 years from now, especially when I see lots of eight year old kids with iPhones and iPads and other devices.
    I think there will still be a place for handheld gaming devices dedicated to playing games.

    Of course I think the large section that traditionally went this route for portability will continue to shift towards devices they're already taking with them that can do a multitude of other tasks in addition to gaming. But many gamers playing handhelds never took them out of the house and appreciate the advantages for gaming that a dedicated system provides. Just witness the popularity of tv/out options in the past for some evidence of that segment of handheld gamer's being significant

    Handhelds don't necessarily equate to portability. I suspect many a 3DS and Vita has never even left home and that segment isn't going to go away. I'm sure the days of 100-150 million handhelds is part of the past, but I see no reason why these two handhelds and future handhelds can't pull console like install bases.

    Quote Originally Posted by RCM View Post
    I stand by my comments, but thanks for stopping by.
    As do I...

    It won't be long if you're right before we hear about many publishers jumping ship, hardware manufacturing being discontinued, hardware and software disappearing from stores, etc.

    Yet somehow I think I'll be able to walk into any retailer that carries videogames six months or a year from now and buy a new Vita and buy games from a selection of new releases.
    Last edited by Leo_A; 10-24-2012 at 07:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_A View Post
    As do I...

    It won't be long if you're right before we hear about many publishers jumping ship, hardware manufacturing being discontinued, hardware and software disappearing from stores, etc.

    Yet somehow I think I'll be able to walk into any retailer that carries videogames a six months or a year from now and buy a new Vita and buy games from a selection of new releases.
    Just keep ignoring what I originally stated...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    I don't know about most people, but when the term "port" is used in the video game industry, it has a pretty specific meaning and it's not how you have defined it.
    Rarely does anyone use the term port for its intended purpose. It's very commonly used as rereleasing the game over on another console after its original release. Why the term "enhanced port" then, since additional content is added and it's not exactly a port then is it?

    Even with all the shitty 360 to PS3 ports we get, people don't ever use the term port when describing a multiconsole game. It's always used about a game that is being ported over to a device at a later time.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kohler
    The issue that happened with PSP is we got overrun with ports. It became very difficult for us to define what made PSP unique. The content development became a bit unstructured or decentralised, in that we got a lot of content that was on PlayStation 2 and got thrown over to the handheld
    Seems like John Kohler's using the term just as I described it.
    Last edited by kupomogli; 10-24-2012 at 07:37 PM.
    Everything in the above post is opinion unless stated otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RCM View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_A View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RCM View Post
    I stand by my comments [About the Vita being at risk of not seeing a second Christmas season]
    It won't be long if you're right before we hear about many publishers jumping ship, hardware manufacturing being discontinued, hardware and software disappearing from stores, etc.

    Yet somehow I think I'll be able to walk into any retailer that carries videogames six months or a year from now and buy a new Vita and buy games from a selection of new releases.
    Just keep ignoring what I originally stated...
    Was I?

    Quote Originally Posted by RCM View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_A View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RCM View Post
    Unless things change (price cut, great exclusives) this may be Vita's last holiday season.
    That's nonsense, there's zero chance that the Vita is going away anytime soon.
    Is it nonsense?
    I largely agree with you. Sony needs to be doing better with the Vita, they've gotten off to a slow start, and this market itself isn't what it once was and is providing them with extra challenges as a result.

    But worst case scenario, this thing struggles along for several years being a disappointment before discontinuation. Failure is an option but a disappearance in 2013 simply isn't. That suggestion that it could go away in the next few months is all I ever was contesting and you did state it.

    Unless Sony itself implodes, the Sony Vita will still be on store shelfs a year from now with new hardware and games still being produced. It's not at any risk of disappearing anytime soon.
    Last edited by Leo_A; 10-24-2012 at 08:04 PM.

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    @Leo. Here's my original statement:

    "Unless things change (price cut, great exclusives) this may be Vita's last holiday season."

    Nowhere does it say PS Vita *won't* be around next Holiday. Get it?
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    I never suggested that you ever said that it absolutely won't be here for Christmas 2013. But you're stating that it's a legitimate possibility that it might not make it.

    And that's what I was contesting. Disappearance next year isn't in the cards unless Sony itself dies. And as far as I know despite a rocky road over the past few years, that doesn't seem to be a possibility anytime soon.

    But I suppose we could always wake up tomorrow with a shock. That's how Penn Central went 40 years ago after the CEO and board had spent several years trying to hide the truth before it simply became impossible and the world saw its largest bankruptcy in history up to that time. I suppose even in today's tightened corporate world that a large company like Sony could be far worse off than they appear to the outside world and could be the next Penn Central, Enron, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_A View Post
    I never suggested that you ever said that it absolutely won't be here for Christmas 2013. But you're stating that it's a real possibility that it might not make it.

    And that's what I was contesting. Disappearance next year isn't in the cards unless Sony itself dies. And as far as I know despite a rocky road over the past few years, that doesn't seem to be a possibility anytime soon.

    But I suppose we could always wake up tomorrow with a shock. That's how Penn Central went 40 years ago after the CEO and board had spent several years trying to hide the truth. I suppose even in today's tightened corporate world that a large company like Sony could be far worse off than they appear to the outside world.
    "Rocky Road" is a diplomatic way of putting it. They reported a $6.4 billion dollar loss earlier this year: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/11/bu...lion.html?_r=0. Sony as a whole is not doing well and they are dabbling with the app market with their PS Mobile initiative. It's smart and a way to continue competing in the mobile market. With Sony continuing to take losses it is a real possibility that they could decide to cut under performing platforms like Vita or let them die slow deaths like PS Move. They'd still have PS Mobile to fall back on, at least.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCM View Post
    "Rocky Road" is a diplomatic way of putting it. They reported a $6.4 billion dollar loss earlier this year: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/11/bu...lion.html?_r=0. Sony as a whole is not doing well and they are dabbling with the app market with their PS Mobile initiative. It's smart and a way to continue competing in the mobile market. With Sony continuing to take losses it is a real possibility that they could decide to cut under performing platforms like Vita or let them die slow deaths like PS Move. They'd still have PS Mobile to fall back on, at least.
    It's not Sony's videogame division that is posting those losses though. They've lost a huge amount of market share in the television market, that they once dominated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamevet View Post
    It's not Sony's videogame division that is posting those losses though. They've lost a huge amount of market share in the television market, that they once dominated.
    You are 100% incorrect. The Consumer Products and Services Division which houses the Playstation as well as television unit posted a substantial portion of this loss. Sony specifically cited the cost of price cuts for its Playstation 3 hardware and increased marketing costs for Playstation as factors in the loss. Were losses due to declining TV market share a factor and possibly a larger proportion of the loss? Absolutely. That doesn't mean the Playstation division was profitable or not a part of the loss.
    Last edited by Bojay1997; 10-24-2012 at 09:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    You are 100% incorrect. The Consumer Products and Services Division which houses the Playstation as well as television unit posted a substantial portion of this loss. Sony specifically cited the cost of price cuts for its Playstation 3 hardware and increased marketing costs for Playstation as factors in the loss. Were losses due to declining TV market share a factor and possibly a larger proportion of the loss? Absolutely. That doesn't mean the Playstation division was profitable or not a part of the loss.
    According to the article it isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYTimes
    Mr. Kato said that tepid sales of TVs, especially in the United States, Sony’s biggest market, were hurting profitability most at the manufacturer. But he also blamed the strong yen, which has battered Sony’s profitability abroad, as well as the lingering effects of damage from the tsunami in Japan last year and flooding in the manufacturing hub of Thailand.


    Analysts also point out that Sony needs to focus its resources on its strengths, like its entertainment and video games units, and abandon areas, like televisions, in which it is no longer competitive. But Mr. Hirai has previously denied that Sony would go so far, saying the company was not prepared to give up on such a central and time-honored business.
    Sony was losing money on every PS3 sold, but it's been sold at a profit since 2010. The Vita might be a different story though.

    http://www.edge-online.com/news/sony...ow-profitable/

    Quote Originally Posted by edge-online 2010
    This year is the first time that we are able to cover the cost of the PlayStation 3," Shuhei Yoshida, president of Sony’s Worldwide Studios, told IGN. "We aren’t making huge money from hardware, but we aren’t bleeding like we used to."

    Sony most recently updated PS3 hardware earlier this year, shipping new consoles with smaller and more cost efficient graphics chips as part of its long-running bid to reduce manufacturing costs and boost profitability. And now that it’s making money on the hardware, the company isn’t thinking of cutting the PS3’s retail price in the near future.
    The PS3 hardware has been scaled down again, so it should be even more profitable than it was with the introduction of the slim.
    Last edited by Gamevet; 10-24-2012 at 09:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamevet View Post
    According to the article it isn't.



    Sony was losing money on every PS3 sold, but it's been sold at a profit since 2010. The Vita might be a different story though.

    http://www.edge-online.com/news/sony...ow-profitable/



    The PS3 hardware has been scaled down again, so it should be even more profitable than it was with the introduction of the slim.
    You're using outdated and vague sources. Here is a specific citation to the most recent quarterly report. The games division alone lost $45 million US or 29 million GBP.

    http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1517042...s_decline.html

    Also, to your point, it doesn't matter if they make money on each PS3 or Vita sold or not. All that net profit can be wiped out by marketing costs, development costs on the next generation, poor software sales, losses from piracy, etc...Similarly, it wouldn't be a problem if they lost tons of money on the hardware as long as their software or digital services were highly profitable which unfortunately they are not right now, at least not enough to make a net profit.
    Last edited by Bojay1997; 10-24-2012 at 09:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    You're using outdated and vague sources. Here is a specific citation to the most recent quarterly report. The games division alone lost $45 million US or 29 million GBP.

    http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1517042...s_decline.html

    Also, to your point, it doesn't matter if they make money on each PS3 or Vita sold or not. All that net profit can be wiped out by marketing costs, development costs on the next generation, poor software sales, losses from piracy, etc...Similarly, it wouldn't be a problem if they lost tons of money on the hardware as long as their software or digital services were highly profitable which unfortunately they are not right now, at least not enough to make a net profit.
    But you're overlooking the big picture; The games division wasn't Sony's loss leader. The company lost $ 6.5 billion across the board, with a paltry $45 million being from the games division. The losses from the game division were accounted to 400k less in sales of the PS2 and PS3, and 400k less in sales of its portables, compared to the previous fiscal year.



    Quote Originally Posted by nowgamer
    Sony's games division posted an operating loss of $45 million (£29m), citing declining demand for consoles and games.

    Falling PlayStation sales were somewhat hidden, with Sony lumping PS3 and PS2 sales together (2.8 million, down from 3.2 million the previous year) and the combined PSP and PS Vita unit sales down to 1.4 million from 1.8 million the previous year.
    The PSP is actually doing very well in Japan, with software sales. It's a money maker in their country, but with the devalue of the Yen, their sales in North America are actually hurting profit.

    http://www.the-magicbox.com/1209/game120927d.shtml

    http://seekingalpha.com/article/3781...han-the-dollar


    Quote Originally Posted by seekingalpha
    At this moment it seems likely that the Yen will lose value faster than the Dollar, hence justifying a long position in the USD/JPY currency pair. It does not necessarily mean that the Dollar itself will appreciate, but it will gain relative strength as the Yen declines. Seeing paper currencies in relative, not absolute, strength is the striking characteristic of currency pairs.
    Let's not forget Nintendo, that is nearly 100% videogames, reported much larger losses.

    http://www.webpronews.com/nintendo-r...pected-2012-10

    Quote Originally Posted by webpronews
    Nintendo shocked the world earlier this year by announcing the first annual loss in the company’s history. The loss was attributed to sluggish 3DS sales, but the company had hoped to return to profitability this year. That doesn’t look like it’s going to happen.

    Nintendo announced today that its annual net profit forecast has been cut by 70 percent. It’s due in part to first-half losses of $351 million which is 40 percent more than expected. Now the company expects to bring in $75 million in profits this fiscal year, a far cry from the original forecast of $251 million.
    Last edited by Gamevet; 10-24-2012 at 10:33 PM.

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    I love my Vita. To me it is like being able to own a TurboExpress back in 1991. Nothing else can touch the tech, the screen is nice, the game selection is great. I can't think of a knock against the Vita, really. I got mine during a GameStop $250 bundle special that added on a free game of my choice (Wipeout) and an offical Sony case. $20 for a 4GB card wasn't so bad. Looking at Slickdeals, I was able to pick up Mortal Kombat for $12 or so too. $200 of the trade credit was all thanks to a good timed 3ds trade in, the most over hyped handheld I've owned.

    I also really like the remote desktop like feature of the Vita and PS3. It is fun being able to play any PS1 game, like Raiden Project or R-Types, on the Vita from the couch. Give me a good enough coffee shop or library connection and I'd bet I could play them away from home.

    The Vita is the handheld gaming experience I've always wanted. Even if it gets discontinued tomorrow, I could see myself tracking down the software that's been released so far for a complete collection. I'm hoping to add Gravity Rush and Marvel vs. Capcom 3 sometime. I would love a port of Fallout 3 on the unit.

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    First off, let me just say that if anybody wants a Vita, it shouldn't be very hard to find one on Craigslist for $150 cash money. I've bought several at that price. (I have 3 vita's at my house, one for me and two for my two boys). We bought all of our Vita's off Craigslist, and each time I got them for $150. Also, you can get most of the games for $15 via Craigslist or $20 via Ebay. I just recently got Madden 13 on Ebay for only $10.13 shipped. Normally it goes for closer to $15 to $21 shipped, but I got lucky. There are tons of great games on the Vita. I think the Hot Shots Golf is absolutely outstanding. One of the most addictive portable games I've ever played. Wipeout on Vita is damn impressive. I'm a huge Wipeout fan, and the Vita version is well worth the price of admission (especially cause you can find the game for $19.99 places).

    Fifa Soccer on the Vita is another example of a top notch Vita game. Easily the best portable version of soccer in existence. When I play that game on my Vita, it's like holding a miniature sized PS3 with a copy of Fifa 12 running on it. Yeah, I know the new Fifa Soccer 13 is a ripoff, because they basically took the last version and only added a roster update. Forget Fifa 13. Just get the first one, you can probably find it for $15 or less on Craiglist or Ebay. Trust me, the game is fucking brilliant. Playability out the ying yang. There are lots of fun demos to play on PSN as well. Super Stardust is awesome. Montezuma, the match 3 game is fun to play once per day. It's one of those freemium games.

    GameStop had Mortal Kombat vita for $10. I'm not sure what the price is now, but so many of them were sold at that price, that it shouldn't be hard to get from somebody else for $10 to $15. It's well worth that. It's a damn good game. Lots of good games to get on the cheap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamevet View Post
    But you're overlooking the big picture; The games division wasn't Sony's loss leader. The company lost $ 6.5 billion across the board, with a paltry $45 million being from the games division. The losses from the game division were accounted to 400k less in sales of the PS2 and PS3, and 400k less in sales of its portables, compared to the previous fiscal year.





    The PSP is actually doing very well in Japan, with software sales. It's a money maker in their country, but with the devalue of the Yen, their sales in North America are actually hurting profit.

    http://www.the-magicbox.com/1209/game120927d.shtml

    http://seekingalpha.com/article/3781...han-the-dollar




    Let's not forget Nintendo, that is nearly 100% videogames, reported much larger losses.

    http://www.webpronews.com/nintendo-r...pected-2012-10
    I'm sorry, but now you're just trying to redirect the argument despite the fact that you were factually proven to be wrong. You claimed the gaming division wasn't part of the reason for the loss and was in fact profitable. You were wrong about that. The fact that Nintendo or anyone else suffered a bigger loss is irrelevant. Unlike Sony, Nintendo has very few places to go if its video game business goes bust. The company would basically cease to exist at that point. As such, Nintendo is going to stick it out regardless of the outcome.

    Sony lost money on its game division last quarter and has lost money in the gaming division for at least the past few years. If those losses get worse or continue for too long, Sony will do what it has done in other divisions and cut unprofitable product lines. Does that mean Sony will get out of video game hardware completely? Probably not, but anyone that thinks they will let Vita go on for as long as PSP if it's not profitable is ignoring Sony's own history and its recent actions in other divisions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    I'm sorry, but now you're just trying to redirect the argument despite the fact that you were factually proven to be wrong. You claimed the gaming division wasn't part of the reason for the loss and was in fact profitable. You were wrong about that. The fact that Nintendo or anyone else suffered a bigger loss is irrelevant. Unlike Sony, Nintendo has very few places to go if its video game business goes bust. The company would basically cease to exist at that point. As such, Nintendo is going to stick it out regardless of the outcome.
    Nope, I said:

    It's not Sony's videogame division that is posting those losses though. They've lost a huge amount of market share in the television market, that they once dominated.
    The videogame division isn't posting huge losses. The rest of the company accounts for over 99.9% of the losses. The videogame division isn't what is wrong with Sony's profit margin, it's the rest of the company that is hemorrhaging cash.


    Yeah, the launch of the Vita was a big part of the $48 million profit loss for the videogame division of Sony, but I've clearly pointed out that Nintendo suffered bigger losses with the launch of the 3DS. The PS3 caused much larger losses for Sony's videogame division, than the Vita has, so I see no reason why Sony would cut and run on the Vita so soon.
    Last edited by Gamevet; 10-24-2012 at 11:44 PM.

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    nevermind
    Last edited by kupomogli; 10-25-2012 at 10:50 AM.
    Everything in the above post is opinion unless stated otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamevet View Post
    Nope, I said:



    The videogame division isn't posting huge losses. The rest of the company accounts for over 99.9% of the losses. The videogame division isn't what is wrong with Sony's profit margin, it's the rest of the company that is hemorrhaging cash.


    Yeah, the launch of the Vita was a big part of the $48 million profit loss for the videogame division of Sony, but I've clearly pointed out that Nintendo suffered bigger losses with the launch of the 3DS. The PS3 caused much larger losses for Sony's videogame division, than the Vita has, so I see no reason why Sony would cut and run on the Vita so soon.
    I'm sorry, but you are misrepresenting your own statements. To my comment "That doesn't mean the Playstation division was profitable or not a part of the loss." You said "According to the article it isn't." "It isn't" is a direct denial of my claim that the Playstation division was part of the loss. You also stated that "It's not Sony's videogame division that is posting those losses though." I never said anything in there about the losses being "huge" and neither did you. Your clear representation was that the videogame division has not been posting losses. It has been and is still posting losses as of the last quarterly report.

    As for the other part of it, nobody really knows how much appetite Sony has for further losses. Sony was much more profitable when the PS3 launched, having come through two successful previous console releases and in an era when they still led in television and other consumer electronics sales. As such, they were probably much more willing to stick things out for the long term assuming that the PS3 would eventually be profitable. While I don't think they will "cut and run" after this holiday season, I certainly don't think they will let things go on for several more years if the losses continue. It's a publically traded company, so at some point shareholder pressure will force a change.

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    Kirby (Level 13) Leo_A's Avatar
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    A 48 million loss for videogaming at Sony is almost nothing. Unless Sony itself goes under, I don't see the videogaming division being a target for draconian cuts. It has traditionally been a very profitable enterprise for Sony and it seems as if they've done much over the past 5 years to get the ship righted and headed back in that direction after scores of poor decisions in the middle half of the past decade.

    I have to think that the Vita is an important aspect of their plans for the future. But who knows, they sure don't seem to be trying particularly hard on the software side of things. So maybe I'm giving them too much credit.

    I think it would be a shame, a poor business decision, and would greatly hurt their reputation in this industry if they were to let this thing just wither on the vine.
    Last edited by Leo_A; 10-25-2012 at 04:50 PM.

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