Large format displays, which are basically huge computer monitors, are better than TVs when it comes to latency and scaling.
Large format displays, which are basically huge computer monitors, are better than TVs when it comes to latency and scaling.
I haven't done extensive testing of scaling lag in my monitor myself, but I know there has got to be some amount. Probably not much. Stuff seems playable with it enabled. The quality is pretty good actually, although it's not nearly as "accurate" as you'd get from a standalone scaler box.Originally Posted by kedawa
Just in case I guess I should lay out what the four likely options are, as I understand them:
- Use classic systems only on CRT televisions and get a low-lag LCD TV for modern consoles - probably the default option. I don't know if the PS3 720p "disclaimer" applies, but otherwise 1080p sets seem to be the standard.
- Get a scaler in addition to the above so you can enjoy classic systems on current televisions.
- Find some kind of screen that scales nearly without lag and with good quality - but if there is one of these, people don't know about it. Also, if it needs to be replaced you're back at square one. This kind of route will severely hamper your choices and I think it's best to be able to choose a screen you'd like. It's kind of like trying to find a good computer monitor with a portrait rotation function - sounds like a good idea in theory but it ends up just limiting your choices and it's just a function you can get from a third party device anyway.
- You could also look into getting a good monitor like kedawa mentioned, but I think those get expensive and generally don't seem big enough for comfortable distance viewing. However this doesn't entirely solve the problems because you will still need to convert from the console's output to HDMI, DVI, or whatever the screen uses. On top of that, a good scaler will be faster and have cleaner output than most displays. Maybe the current Sony OLEDs have a good fast scaler inside but I wouldn't count on it.
If you're trying to buy a LCD TV to use on retro video games you're doing it backwards and making yourself jump through hula hoops.
All you need is a CRT TV. I wouldn't buy any scaler for $500 dollars though.
Already said that. CRTs don't last forever and not everybody has them, so a scaler can be a very flexible piece of equipment to have. For example, if you were taking games on the road to a meet. I assume there may still be new scalers made in years to come but there are some pretty good ones out right now. I expect they will only get better as time goes on though.
Where I live you can get a CRT TV for under $20 bucks if not free. As people upgrade to flat screens their old picture tube TVs sit in storage. For many people they are big and bulky and take up space so they give them away.
CRT TVs won't last forever just as a scaler won't last forever either.
We're not talking about "forever" because yes, the end of the universe may well be low-energy photons drifting out into endless space.
In the short term, CRTs have a relatively limited service life; even if they are well treated things can go wrong and the number of parts and technicians willing to deal with them at an affordable price is decreasing. A scaler box doesn't likely have nearly as short a lifespan as it is mostly made up of solid-state components. There is also no reason to think that scalers are going out of production any time soon.
I think by now we've all read the OP's clarifications that he is set for Trinitrons, so that is really just so much water down the sluice at this point.
yea and i passed up a 32" flat tube trinitron the other day while i was dumpster diving, manufacture date of 2000.
but yea all i am looking for is a tv that is best at laving a low lag without getting any thing else, i havent got much other than a bunch of "get a crt!" capt. obvious posts and then the occasional scaler in addition to a tv posts i havent herd much about a tv that by it self has a low ammount of lag.
i've been thinking for a long time about to word this so just to make it clear:
A good LCD tv that has a low ammount of lag by it self with out buying extras.
47"+ 1080p other than that not really much in the way of requirements other than the bolded larger low lag statment above
i know theres going to be lag but i realize that some are going to be better than others
and if i said i wanted to play the old games in true form i would have asked what was a good tv in the CRT post a few down from this one....or you know actually read the post before posting to make sure the question asked is applicable to my input or seccondary question
It looks like this has a bunch of links to useful resources. Basically go through the links and look for info.
Unfortunately I checked AVSforum (linked a few times above) and the whole forum display is cluttered with "Official X Owners thread" type stuff - pretty useless when you want to find out what's good to start with unfortunately.
Now, if you're interested in getting a TV just for Modern Gaming (as opposed to Classic Gaming...) then there are many options available to you (although native resolution and scaling-caused input lag can still be a problem if you have a mismatch between 720p and 1080p, for example).
Also, I've recently read that once you get above around 42" input lag gets markedly worse.
No need to get snippy with people trying to help - you posted in Classic gaming, you mentioned your set is dying but not that you had CRTs, you mentioned you wanted to play SNES on LCD (see quote above) and I'm still not sure you understand that input lag varies from system to system. So chill.
Last edited by Ed Oscuro; 01-03-2013 at 06:24 PM.
i have nes.snes,sms,genesis,wii,ps3 hooked up to a 50" LG Plasma I bought a few years ago and they all work flawlessly. Burn in isn't horrible and goes away quickly.
Using anything except RF, they look fantastic. I swear my nes and snes look way better than they ever did on a CRT. Crisp clean corners, no weirdness, bright vibrant colors.
Plasmas are getting harder to get but I sure love mine over the LCD in our bedroom any day. The picture is just so much better.
We have the 60 Hz version of this TV and like it quite a bit. It doesn't have the vertical lines you usually get without a dedicated upscaler (thanks to looking into it more since joining here). We only have the 42" but relatively certain the larger ones will be similar.
Would that be this one?
I actually could check this year's LG 42" myself, which is also a 60Hz. I don't like its scaling of SD material at all (blurry damn mess, and when you turn the blur off, a pixelated damn mess; at no time do you get the correct aspect ratio, either) but it does pretty well with Blu-Ray and DVD. There is something about the way things look on these sets that I don't like but that's really not a matter here. I should check that out and get back here with my thoughts.
It's a bit frustrating, honestly, to try to give any recommendations like this because one never can be sure how the input lag or quality will be from one system to another. It does sound as if it has a low input lag, but its performance with native resolution doesn't guarantee that picture quality or low lag with other sources.
Last edited by Ed Oscuro; 01-03-2013 at 10:42 PM.
There's a pretty active thread about low-latency displays on the shoryuken.com forums. You may want to check it out.
I recommend not recommending things for which the OP was NOT seeking recommendation :P
So common on this forum. People feel this strange need to TELL you what you want and/or need, even when you're not at all asking for that sort of info, and it's often as if to say "I know more than you".
Last edited by wiggyx; 01-04-2013 at 08:42 AM.
So where do you come off patrolling his thread for him, numbnuts? I don't see where you got appointed his protector. If the worst things we had to deal with involved getting too much information, life would be pretty good.
If nobody else knew more, then he wouldn't need to ask a question, dontcha think? Also WOW, you're pretty clueless if you think that what Fudoh says about lagless televisions doesn't matter. The truth sucks, but I guess it's more polite not to mention this? If it was me, I'd rather somebody mentioned what I needed to know (or at least tried to be helpfully contrary) so I didn't end up buying something that wasn't right for me.
So why don't you be the champ and tell us how we're going to get lagless SNES gameplay on a LCD without a scaler? Because the actual OP (and, y'know, the choice of subforum this was posted in) seems to indicate that a set for classic systems is a primary consideration.
p.s. I already explained why I gave more information instead of less, but keep beating this dead horse and trolling with old post responses, maybe some good will come of it! As opposed to, y'know, actually doing what the OP asked, which is actually mentioning a tv that will work (and not blaming your Samsungs because you don't know how to connect retro consoles to them).
Last edited by Ed Oscuro; 01-04-2013 at 11:32 AM.
Name calling is a great way to further your point.
I can recommend some great people to help you with that borderline personality disorder. Just me me know. I'm here for ya'.
Yes, that's the one. I don't find it to be terrible with blur. I get next to no delay. It may not be as good as a CRT, but for main living area where you want multiple generations connected, it's not bad either.
I hope you've had fun, but you aren't even pretending to keep things on-topic at this point, as you were protesting about so stridently earlier. So far the only thing you've mentioned which was on topic wasn't even useful information yet ("I don't know how to get classic systems to work well with my Samsungs" is not a good reason to avoid all televisions from the brand; they manufacture many good televisions and panels used by a variety of manufacturers in good TVs).
Borderline personality disorder...name calling...that's a good joke! I'll be nice and assume you're not just blindly hypocritical.
I'm just here to help the OP so he doesn't spend a lot of money for a TV just because it has low lag only to find out it's not the best solution because it doesn't also have a fast internal scaler.
Unfortunately no LCD is going to be as good as a CRT but you have to make do with what you get.
I've got the chance to look at an LG 42LM3700. I read somewhere or other that your LG is a bit faster than the 2011 model...no idea if it's actually true as it was just somebody's impression. This has gotten me interested in trying to figure out what the input lag is like on this set - I'd be happy to spend a minute testing out a SNES and seeing what it's like.
One problem I'm having with trying to help with the OP's request is that nobody really has any comprehensive listing of lag for televisions (and there are so many), even for regular HDMI (there is a new testing device out that will help with that). When you get to old SD sources, the situation gets somewhat worse because the set has to scale (as we've mentioned).
All that being said I have to admit there's not necessarily any reason to be frantic about it; even on the Shoryuken forums many people say that even the pros can't detect 2 or 3 frames of lag (but then other people will say that you need those). For many games it should be more than enough.
Really, the input lag stuff is not a big problem for most offline, non-competitive gaming. If you like loading up a favorite platformer now and then it's probably easy to adjust your timing a bit, if that's even necessary. If you wanted to play some of the toughest games from years past it might be a bit different. I would say "don't even worry about input lag if you aren't gaming competitively" but unfortunately some sets are just that bad you will notice no matter what, and you want to avoid those.
I think the best recommendation will probably be this: Take a system you would like to be able to play and get the store to let you try it out. For best input lag you will want to disable all kinds of motion interpolation, blurring, color correction, etc. - put it in "game mode" if it has it, obviously. This is really the only way to tell if it is up to your standards, or whether you don't mind changing your standards a little bit to suit what's available now. If it is, then there's no problem.
Last edited by Ed Oscuro; 01-04-2013 at 10:51 PM.
Where's that ignore button...
Found it.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
Having a fast internal scaler is precisely what makes it 'low lag'.
I am a collector of the classics (Atari, NES, SNES, Genesis, 3DO, Saturn, etc.)
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