PS4 Not Playing Used Games, What Is This Hobby Coming To?

[IHatedSega]

I cant support this at all. Games cost way too much nowadays for me. Not to mention after a game is discontinued the only way to really buy it is used, so this patent to stop used games from being played, to me, may create a lost generation of games. We wouldnt be able to play Earthbound without emulation or playing a used copy. I hope that when games are discontinued that they would let used copies of that game be played, at least. Who knows how this will work out, but just the act of them filing this patent makes me not want to support their next console. I dont like Gamestop and their stock fell from this rumor, I hope it drives them out of business and more companies spring up to take its place somehow on a national level. More so I hope this would make games less expensive. If we cant buy a used copy of a game it better be reasonably priced. $60 is way too much for a game that can be beat within a week, I dont care about trophies. The cloud method of all future games being downloaded to the console though would make this an non issue, but them filing this shows that the PS4 will have a disk drive in it.

I may buy a 360 because of this, the new model that doesnt burn out. But Microsoft filed a patent to monitor people watching "pirated content" or that you yourself bought this video to play and if someone else comes into the room you get charged for them seeing it too.

WHAT THE HELL IS HAPPENING TO GAMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What do you guys think?

[CDiablo]

Patent may just be tech that will not see the light of day. Titles wont be lost but collecting will be. There will be digitial distribution, emulation, modding, and whatnot to preserve the games in that sense. I dont support it but if a console does do that sales will be down due to people that sell used/buy new wont have the same income from their used and cannot afford $60/$70 games.

[kupomogli]

Not enough people are online for this patent to become useful during this current time, but it's something Sony used on Playstation All Stars when giving out the free copy. The free copy was on disc, you had to be online and activate it, and it was checked off on the PSN server side to active PSABR PSV version on the specific account.

More than likely Sony is just patenting this technology for use later in the future or if companies ever decide to use this feature, no matter who they are, Sony then can either decline the use of this patent or get paid per game for use of the feature.

I'll quit collecting when this type of patent goes into effect. The physical copy will then be useless on another console. So during that time, what happens if my console dies in the future when PS4/5 whatever uses this patent is no longer in development. I'm stuck with games that are completely useless. So when that time comes, I'll be exclusively on PC.

[Ed Oscuro]

Let's see what actually makes it into the consoles first.

Honestly, it doesn't seem outrageous to have some kind of model based on a backend which ties your use of games (and statistics) to your account (no need for a per-console lock-in as some people suggested would happen with the PS3, some years back). This is basically what we've been doing since 2003 with Steam (on PC) and not terribly later for other games, like EA's Battlefield series (codes needed for pretty much every game in the series, locked to your account, disc worthless as it can't be reused) and pretty much any online / DLC content for the Xbox 360. The good point of this is you don't have to deal with expensive cartridges anymore...the down side of it is pretty much the same thing!

Boxed games at retailers are pretty much just becoming coupons for a download service. I said I didn't like it, too, but Steam has gotten my grudging respect, at least.

For the moment, though, there's still a fair number of good systems out there which have physical media, thank goodness.

Basically: Same story, different generation. The march to intangible goods continues!

[Atarileaf]

Applying for a patent, in and of itself, doesn't mean much. If it actually gets implemented in a new console, then we've got something to worry about. As others have mentioned, many people fund their collections by buying a game, beating it and then selling it to buy other games. Without this ability, people will simply buy less games which will defeat what Sony is trying to do.

[megasdkirby]

If this becomes true, I would hack my system and pirate the games. I'm not kidding...or I would not purchase the console. Simple as that.

It won't happen, though. Too much backlash. Unless Sony want's to commit suicide, which is what they are doing now anyway.

[IHatedSega]

Itll be 15 or 20 years before the ps3 can be properly emulated like the ps1 is now. By making this thing a reality Sony is begging people to hack their consoles.

Im buying up ps2 games right now since theyre not retro and prices are great. I have to buy them used of course.

[wiggyx]

A patent filing is just a patent filing. It can't reliably be used to predict the future.

[kaedesdisciple]

Itll be 15 or 20 years before the ps3 can be properly emulated like the ps1 is now. By making this thing a reality Sony is begging people to hack their consoles.

Im buying up ps2 games right now since theyre not retro and prices are great. I have to buy them used of course.

Devil's advocate ahoy!

15 or 20 years? Would love to see the science behind those numbers...

By making this thing a reality Sony would be putting a measure in place to help protect their intellectual property as well as the IP of the authors and publishers that pay licensing fees from those that would exploit the device and software with the intention of stealing from them. Tell me again how protecting investments from theft is a bad thing or rather, I would love to see you explain to a board of directors why protection of investments from theft is a bad thing.

Everyone needs to get it through their heads: it's all about the revenue. Since second-hand sales provide zero revenue to the manufacturer, publisher or author, those who suffer from second-hand sales will take any reasonable measure they can to stifle the concept. Online passes and other types of first-owner DLC do help to recover some of that lost revenue, but the fact of the matter is they are still losing that first sale revenue and they want it back. Whether it's through a measure like this or something else, they will find a way.

Awesome that you're able to buy up all of those PS2 games now that they're cheap and used. Of course, this doesn't benefit the manufacturers, authors or publishers now, but I'm glad it makes you feel better.

[wingzrow]

SONY's stock is already at "junk" status. With that and the poor vita sales, this may be the last thing they do to kill themselves.

With that said, companies make patents all the time, sometimes just to sell to OTHER companies that are actually stupid enough to go through with hem.

[8-bitNesMan]

Devil's advocate ahoy!

15 or 20 years? Would love to see the science behind those numbers...

By making this thing a reality Sony would be putting a measure in place to help protect their intellectual property as well as the IP of the authors and publishers that pay licensing fees from those that would exploit the device and software with the intention of stealing from them. Tell me again how protecting investments from theft is a bad thing or rather, I would love to see you explain to a board of directors why protection of investments from theft is a bad thing.

Everyone needs to get it through their heads: it's all about the revenue. Since second-hand sales provide zero revenue to the manufacturer, publisher or author, those who suffer from second-hand sales will take any reasonable measure they can to stifle the concept. Online passes and other types of first-owner DLC do help to recover some of that lost revenue, but the fact of the matter is they are still losing that first sale revenue and they want it back. Whether it's through a measure like this or something else, they will find a way.

Awesome that you're able to buy up all of those PS2 games now that they're cheap and used. Of course, this doesn't benefit the manufacturers, authors or publishers now, but I'm glad it makes you feel better.

I see your points but the one argument I've never fully understood is that second hand used sales hurt manufacturers, publishers, and authors. Didn't there have to be a first hand sale when the game was new for there to be a second hand sale?

[Collector_Gaming]

Well I personally think gaming as we call it with actual consoles and PC's is coming to a slow halt. Thanks to smart phones and tablets and simple based gaming that is wide spread and easy to access.

And for the hardcore gamers they are now reaching out to figuring out ways to emulate higher end games onto said devices. I mean they just recently released Grand Theft Auto Vice City in its entirety in the Apple App store! To me it seems consoles in wide spread market that includes hardcore gamers like us and the casual gamer that enjoys firing it up once in awhile and plays simple online or party games slowly dying out (yes i know call of duty is selling like hot cakes and such still but pretty soon thats gonna die out as a gone fad specially when smart devices are starting to catch up on graphics with the console counter parts).

PC Gaming yes Steam sales are still astronomical. But its only catering to customers that been there since day one just about. Its becoming harder and harder for new pc gamer to get into it because everything is online just about now a days. and its becoming increasingly harder to buy a gaming pc in stores. You basically gotta buy it online and even thats kinda hard to do. Your best bet is to learn how to build a pc and make it yourself. The local best buy here has I think 4 Non tablet style all in one PC's that cater the gamers who like to mod their pcs and also have something out of the box they can hop on steam and buy something and play it without much worry.

I think we are starting to move onto shakey grounds with gaming and it will be interesting to see what the next 10 years will bring us

[kaedesdisciple]

I see your points but the one argument I've never fully understood is that second hand used sales hurt manufacturers, publishers, and authors. Didn't there have to be a first hand sale when the game was new for there to be a second hand sale?

Sure there was a first hand sale, and that was great. Let's put it to math for a second (all fictional but easily illustrated numbers):

Let's start our example by saying that 1,000,000 people have played Super Jumping People (SJP) and I am playing the role of the publisher.

If the 1,000,000 people that played the game bought it first-hand at full retail and my cut of that sale as a publisher of $10, that's 1,000,000 * $10 = $10,000,000 in revenue.

Now let's play with the numbers a little bit:

The same 1,000,000 people have played SJP.

However, if only 80% of those that played the game bought it first-hand at full retail, that reduces my cut to 800,000 * $10 = $8,000,000 in revenue. Now I'm missing $2,000,000 since I don't get a cut of second-hand sales. All of that extra money is now going to either private dealers or second-hand game sellers. Either way, this is now money out of the pocket of the people that own the rights to the IP.

Now I see that there is a control that I can put in place to take those second-hand sellers out of the equation to get some of that revenue back into my pocket? After realizing that it's a risk vs. reward discussion to determine whether it's worthwhile for me to use it for my product. If I lose the small percentage of hardcore gamers that protest the product but the vast majority don't care and buy the product anyway, I still get a nice chunk of my revenue back. Starting to lean towards sold for me...

[IHatedSega]

Devil's advocate ahoy!

15 or 20 years? Would love to see the science behind those numbers...

Awesome that you're able to buy up all of those PS2 games now that they're cheap and used. Of course, this doesn't benefit the manufacturers, authors or publishers now, but I'm glad it makes you feel better.

The ps3 has been out for 6 years now or so and theres only a rumor of some guy cracking it, which hasnt been said in awhile. With the first xbox, there is far more people making emulators to play older games on it than to emulate it and play the games on their computers like the first playstation.

These ps2 games arent printed anymore or sold new by stores which would give the money to the developers. Buying them used is all I can do to experience their hard work and Ill buy other games in the future, most likely new since used prices arent competitive with newer games. Guilty Gear developers made Blazeblue and Im gonna get that as soon as I get a 360. Itll be awhile though since I dont have the money for it yet.

The movie studios and governments closed down megaupload for having movies on it, but they werent making as much money off that like used stores all around the world. The used market like thrift stores and retro game stores arent seen as a black market but online sites like megaupload are going down since peopl are freely downloading games. Theres these people who make money like Goodwill reselling stuff to people who will pay less for a product and thats seen as normal business while some teenager downloading stuff for free from a site that takes occasional donations just to stay up and running are seen as criminals. I really dont understand this.

[Damaniel]

Not enough people are online for this patent to become useful during this current time, but it's something Sony used on Playstation All Stars when giving out the free copy. The free copy was on disc, you had to be online and activate it, and it was checked off on the PSN server side to active PSABR PSV version on the specific account.

The interesting thing about this patent is that it's entirely offline - the ownership information is written to a RFID at the time the disc is first used, and all consoles would check for the presence of the tag and whether the ownership information in the tag matches the console. No internet connection is necessary.

I don't think that Sony will roll out this 'feature' in the next Playstation. Like any other company, they chose to file a patent for an idea they came up with, regardless of whether they plan to use it or not. If Nintendo or Microsoft choose to use the feature, then they'd have to work out a licensing agreement with Sony to do so.

All of this is moot anyway - the next generation (post-PS4) will probably be digital download only.

[dendawg]

the next generation (post-PS4) will probably be digital download only.

[kedawa]

RFIDs are completely programmable, so this could create a huge market for 'refurbishing' game discs.

[Mr Mort]

Sure there was a first hand sale, and that was great. Let's put it to math for a second (all fictional but easily illustrated numbers):

Let's start our example by saying that 1,000,000 people have played Super Jumping People (SJP) and I am playing the role of the publisher.

If the 1,000,000 people that played the game bought it first-hand at full retail and my cut of that sale as a publisher of $10, that's 1,000,000 * $10 = $10,000,000 in revenue.

Now let's play with the numbers a little bit:

The same 1,000,000 people have played SJP.

However, if only 80% of those that played the game bought it first-hand at full retail, that reduces my cut to 800,000 * $10 = $8,000,000 in revenue. Now I'm missing $2,000,000 since I don't get a cut of second-hand sales. All of that extra money is now going to either private dealers or second-hand game sellers. Either way, this is now money out of the pocket of the people that own the rights to the IP.

Now I see that there is a control that I can put in place to take those second-hand sellers out of the equation to get some of that revenue back into my pocket? After realizing that it's a risk vs. reward discussion to determine whether it's worthwhile for me to use it for my product. If I lose the small percentage of hardcore gamers that protest the product but the vast majority don't care and buy the product anyway, I still get a nice chunk of my revenue back. Starting to lean towards sold for me...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this scenario is under the assumption that the developer/publisher in question is still printing/distributing copies of this game.
What about a game that is 10-20 years old that is no longer being published? Should I be denied the right to play said game because the publisher/developer decided they didn't want to sell any more copies?

How does my purchase of a used copy of TMNT III on the NES, or a used copy of Hagane on the SNES hurt Konami or Hudson Soft, respectively? They're not selling those games any more either in physical copy, or any kind of Virtual Console or digital distribution service. Should gamers be denied the ability to play these games?

Other forms of media such as film, music, and literature have various forms of public archives, so that people can continue to enjoy them long after their time has passed. Where is such an archive for gaming? Leaving it up to corporations is dangerous IMO, because games would either be lost altogether, or we would be forced to pay outrageous prices, or they'd be subject to altering, or restrictive use.

This goes far beyond used game sales, it's about preservation of the medium.

[Rickstilwell1]

Sure there was a first hand sale, and that was great. Let's put it to math for a second (all fictional but easily illustrated numbers):

Let's start our example by saying that 1,000,000 people have played Super Jumping People (SJP) and I am playing the role of the publisher.

If the 1,000,000 people that played the game bought it first-hand at full retail and my cut of that sale as a publisher of $10, that's 1,000,000 * $10 = $10,000,000 in revenue.

Now let's play with the numbers a little bit:

The same 1,000,000 people have played SJP.

However, if only 80% of those that played the game bought it first-hand at full retail, that reduces my cut to 800,000 * $10 = $8,000,000 in revenue. Now I'm missing $2,000,000 since I don't get a cut of second-hand sales. All of that extra money is now going to either private dealers or second-hand game sellers. Either way, this is now money out of the pocket of the people that own the rights to the IP.

Now I see that there is a control that I can put in place to take those second-hand sellers out of the equation to get some of that revenue back into my pocket? After realizing that it's a risk vs. reward discussion to determine whether it's worthwhile for me to use it for my product. If I lose the small percentage of hardcore gamers that protest the product but the vast majority don't care and buy the product anyway, I still get a nice chunk of my revenue back. Starting to lean towards sold for me...

Developers making more money isn't what pisses me off. It's developers cutting off their products and not making them available anymore that does. With this business model you will never be able to rent or afford all the games you want to play, so by the time a few years go buy and you finally have time to get to the 50th game in your list, it's "Fuck You, you can never play this game because we discontinued it just before you got to it" If it's "fuck you it's cancelled", then it's fuck them back with piracy cause I wanna play the old game they didn't give me time to make enough money to purchase. Get it?

[kedawa]

where is such an archive for gaming?.

tosec