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Thread: Edge reports durango to block used games!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by WCP View Post
    Can you elaborate a bit more on what you mean by that ? I'm not sure what you're implying about a relation between piracy and used games..
    Well, years ago when Internet speeds weren't what they are now it wasn't practical to download a full CD of few hundred megabytes of information from the Internet. Sure some people did it anyways but it wasn't that easy. However it was a much easier buy a game, make a copy of it and just download a 100k crack to disable any copy protection and then just return it or sell it back to Gamestop. Getting the source data was the challenge and used/rented games was a very easy and very cheap source for it. Piracy on consoles certainly exists but it's generally a lot more difficult than just making a copy of a DVD and running a crack since they're closed systems unlike PCs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostDog View Post
    Sony better see what Microsoft is doing and not go that route. Sony even said they're waiting to see what Microsoft is doing with their new system before making their move. Well, Sony, now you see and don't make the same mistake.
    If Sony followed suit, I'd hardly call it a mistake. At least financially speaking.

    People/Customers are sheep. Look at people waiting in line on Black Friday,, or even lines for popular gadgets or games for evidence of this. If Sony follows suit, they will both be equal and customers will still buy these consoles at the same rate they have every previous console. However, if Sony decides to make it VERY CLEAR they will allow used games - They will have a major marketing opportunity to destroy Microsoft's market share. Possibly for good. It's not even about "Used Games" really. People are losing sight of the various kids who simply let their friends borrow games, or go to each others houses and bring (insert game here) over to play. It would be absolutely devastating for your average high school kid to NOT be able to bring his latest "Call of Duty" over to a sleepover and have it locked out, because it's not registered to that console. Not to mention that the parents who by and large purchase these games would adamantly boycott the system that eliminates used or borrowed games. The TV commercials write themselves....

    Little Jimmy Brings "Mega Man 87 - The Elder Years" over to little Bimmy's house - Inserts it into his friends X-Box when a screen pops up - "You cheap ass. You are locked out. Go buy this game for full price Welfare Boy!" - FLASH: Announcer pops up showing the New Sony Console, with kids lending games to one another, buying used ones, hot chicks fawning over the console, trading games with each other when a big graphic caption pops up. "Plays any game. Used, New, Borrowed, or found. No Lockout's like those other guys. We don't discriminate against the 99% like those other guys. Occupy Xbox!" - BAM, what kid or parent is going to choose an Xbox over the Sony?

    The reality is that the ball is in Sony's court at the moment. They can either destroy the used games market entirely, or they can destroy Microsoft's console aspirations. It will be interesting to see what they opt for, however any decision made, won't be based on people threatening to not buy either, or pirate games. It will be based purely on which option they think will benefit them long-term. It will be interesting to see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mangar View Post

    The reality is that the ball is in Sony's court at the moment. They can either destroy the used games market entirely, or they can destroy Microsoft's console aspirations. It will be interesting to see what they opt for, however any decision made, won't be based on people threatening to not buy either, or pirate games. It will be based purely on which option they think will benefit them long-term. It will be interesting to see.

    I'd be willing to bet that some collusion has already taken place. They must already have an agreement. Microsoft probably was the one that really wanted it, and Sony was willing to agree, as long as Microsoft got more out in front of the issue, and then Sony can look like they are just hopping along for the ride. Sony probably wasn't as insistant as Microsoft about this strategy, so they'd prefer that MS takes a bit more of the net rage than they will. MS is in a stronger position financially, so they can look a little bit more like the bad guys, and it's not necessarily going to kill their company. Sony is on dangerous ground, so I don't see them championing this anywhere near as much. I expect them to eventually follow suit before launch, with their plan to have the disc marry the console.

    Both Microsoft and Sony could "allow" a one time license transfer for a fee of $15. Your rights to the game would be revoked, it would delete off your system, and would transfer to another system. It can only be done once, and there is a $15 fee paid by the buyer to activate the disk.


    I also would expect that both Sony and Microsoft would offer a rental plan of some kind. If games are locked to one system, then there wouldn't be a rental market either. I would expect both companies to fill the void digitally. You can rent games and download them level by level. The fees will probably be similar to RedBox / Blockbuster.


    Basically, I see both companies trying to kill several industries that are leaching off their products. You have the used game market, the rental market, and possibly the pirate market (if their always online system has the right security). They want to replace two of those, with their replacement version, except with them getting all the money. Think about every bit of revenue that GameFly and Blockbuster and RedBox and all the other rental places get from renting games. All that revenue would go directly to Microsoft and Sony (to be shared with the publishers of course). Same thing with the used game market. Used games can still happen, it's just that any time a game changes hands, Microsoft and Sony get $15 (to be shared with the publishers). Also, an exchange can only happen once. One game doesn't end up constantly being flipped to the next owner. It's a one time deal.


    These companies have to do this now, because we could be looking at another long gaming cycle, possibly more than 5 or 6 years. I'm sure MS and Sony might not want to rush into the no used games thing right now in 2013, but at the same time, they know that these new systems could have to hold their forts down for the next 7 or 8 years. They have to think long term. I'd be dollars to donuts that they will both have DD only versions of their respective systems before their lifetimes are over with. They know they can't get away with it in 2013, but in 2018, it could be a totally different story.
    Last edited by WCP; 02-13-2013 at 10:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WCP View Post
    Same thing with the used game market. Used games can still happen, it's just that any time a game changes hands, Microsoft and Sony get $15 (to be shared with the publishers). Also, an exchange can only happen once. One game doesn't end up constantly being flipped to the next owner. It's a one time deal.
    They could never make this happen with physical media. Again, I think companies like Gamestop would rather just not carry the products at all than give up their most profitable source of income. They've already said that they expect consoles that allow no used games to sell much worse than ones that don't. And if they want to go into digital distribution, they're going to be butting heads not with the retail industry, but major ISPs.

    If gaming companies really want to cut out the middle man, they need to own their own factories, run their own independent ISPs, and sell only their games only via digital distribution from their proprietary online stores.

    I don't think any company is big enough to do all of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tupin View Post
    They could never make this happen with physical media. Again, I think companies like Gamestop would rather just not carry the products at all than give up their most profitable source of income. They've already said that they expect consoles that allow no used games to sell much worse than ones that don't. And if they want to go into digital distribution, they're going to be butting heads not with the retail industry, but major ISPs.

    If gaming companies really want to cut out the middle man, they need to own their own factories, run their own independent ISPs, and sell only their games only via digital distribution from their proprietary online stores.

    I don't think any company is big enough to do all of this.
    Oh, they're already making this happen, in little bits and pieces, with physical media. Someone I talked to rented Dead Space 3. He couldn't play online without being told to cough up 800 Microsoft points to unlock it. This trend is disturbing enough, but if they can lock down specific aspects of games, there's not much to prevent them from doing it with the entire game, on the console itself, especially tying it into a forced always-on mode. And that forced always-on mode would eliminate anyone living in the dorms at my former college, because they had (and still have) a strict policy of not allowing non-computer devices on their network, and not allowing students to run their own routers or hubs to try and bypass that.

    GameStop did a study that said supposedly 60% of people said they wouldn't buy a console that wouldn't allow for used games. The site where I saw this linked had a poll asking the same question, and at the time I answered yesterday, the percentage was 65% of people saying they wouldn't buy it. I don't think as many people are willing to roll over and take this as the game industry would like. I noticed EA already backpedalling a bit today by calling the used game market a "double edged sword" rather than saying it's inherently bad, and mentioning positive aspects of it. That tells me they've been watching consumer reaction over the past week or so pretty closely, and they aren't willing to alienate customers just yet.

    I also found this comment interesting:

    "Jorgensen said that the industry "will probably never be 100 percent digital" do to "bandwidths constraints" and the limitations of in-home storage, pointing to the continued importance of high street retail channels."

    If people in the industry are even saying that, I think that's a sign that a fully-digital console is a long, long way off, and they realize it's definitely not a viable model within the next few years.

    http://www.computerandvideogames.com...dged-sword-ea/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tupin View Post
    They could never make this happen with physical media. Again, I think companies like Gamestop would rather just not carry the products at all than give up their most profitable source of income.


    What if Sony and Microsoft both do it? Do you really think GameStop could afford not to carry their games at all ? Target, Best Buy and Wal-Mart would still carry them, and GameStop would end up becoming irrevelent even faster than they already are. They would only have Wii U games and legacy games. No PS4, no Xbox Infinity. I don't see it.

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    If both PS4 and NextBox lock out used games, Wii U is the winner this next gen. Probably not, but to those of us who want our discs to be useful 20-30 years down the road, it will be the winner. I'll still get a PS4 or NextBox if they have exclusives I like, but all my multiconsole games will be purchased on PC or Wii U. Wii U if it even gets a multiconsole version that's worth picking up and PC because so much cheaper and much better version than the PS4/NextBox versions.
    Last edited by kupomogli; 02-14-2013 at 12:38 AM.
    Everything in the above post is opinion unless stated otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WCP View Post
    What if Sony and Microsoft both do it? Do you really think GameStop could afford not to carry their games at all ? Target, Best Buy and Wal-Mart would still carry them, and GameStop would end up becoming irrevelent even faster than they already are. They would only have Wii U games and legacy games. No PS4, no Xbox Infinity. I don't see it.
    Technically, Walmart's #1 in video game retail sale volume. Gamestop's only #2. But even so, GS is the public face and goto guy for non-online video game shopping to your average joe schmoe and THAT gives them huge sway. Whether they ultimately agree with the anti-used game feature or not, GS, as a business, is screwed either way. So, yeah, expect a huge fight between now and 2014 crippling MSony cause I don't see them coming out unscathed. A substantial chunk of their userbase buy their new games from Gamestop. So, I wouldn't be surprised if GS start counterattacking by informing their customers of the "Evils" in banning the second-hand market or facsimile thereof. Forget WiiU. It's MSony vs Gamestop!
    Last edited by Press_Start; 02-14-2013 at 02:35 AM.
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    You're just a hypocrite. I'm bashing Nintendo because I'm anti Nintendo, but my reasoning behind bashing them is always accurate. You should learn to do some research.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    I personally think it's greed to expect that you can pay for a game once and then do whatever you want with it.
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    All the ads and commercials you see from Gamestop is advertising a NEW game or console somehow. If Sony and Microsoft and distributors stopped channeling their stuff to Gamestop then people would walk in there, see a bunch of crappy coverless boxes on the walls, and walk out. Its that simple, if they became a use only store, theyd go out of business, unless they started taking in older games, which most people who sell off their old games know to take them to a local used store. If they didnt go totally out of business theyd have far less stores.

    DRM is all about greed, thats it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kupomogli View Post
    If both PS4 and NextBox lock out used games, Wii U is the winner this next gen.
    I don't see it that way. The way I see it is that I have the choice to buy a Xbox or PS4 that won't play used games or buy a Nintendo console that will play used games but generally doesn't have any games that I enjoy playing. Personally I never trade in my used games so my decision would likely be to purchase the Xbox though I wouldn't do so until I saw how much they were going to charge for the games. If the games are still in the $50-$60 range then I probably wouldn't purchase any console and will continue to be an almost 100% PC gamer.

    DRM is all about greed, thats it.
    It's greed to not want a single copy of a game that you might have spent a year making pirated a million times? Personally I see nothing wrong with developers wanting to get paid for their product.
    Last edited by Griking; 02-14-2013 at 03:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Griking View Post
    I don't see it that way. The way I see it is that I have the choice to buy a Xbox or PS4 that won't play used games or buy a Nintendo console that will play used games but generally doesn't have any games that I enjoy playing. Personally I never trade in my used games so my decision would likely be to purchase the Xbox though I wouldn't do so until I saw how much they were going to charge for the games. If the games are still in the $50-$60 range then I probably wouldn't purchase any console and will continue to be an almost 100% PC gamer.



    It's greed to not want a single copy of a game that you might have spent a year making pirated a million times? Personally I see nothing wrong with developers wanting to get paid for their product.
    Except used goods aren't piracy. Seriously, that attitude needs to end. It is greed to expect people to pay $60 for your product and not be able to do what they want with it when they're finished. If I buy a book and resell it, the author doesn't track me down and yell at me. ALL industries that produce physical non-consumable goods are affected by this, across the board - the game industry is *not* special.

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    But you could lend it to a million friends!

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    Quote Originally Posted by danawhitaker View Post
    Except used goods aren't piracy. Seriously, that attitude needs to end. It is greed to expect people to pay $60 for your product and not be able to do what they want with it when they're finished. If I buy a book and resell it, the author doesn't track me down and yell at me. ALL industries that produce physical non-consumable goods are affected by this, across the board - the game industry is *not* special.
    been like that for hundreds if not 1000s of years too! Thats just how it is.

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    ALL industries that produce physical non-consumable goods
    Which is why the video game industry is trying so desperately to turn games into non-physical, consumable goods. Every time you hear some CEO talk about "games as a service" this is what they mean.
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    Quote Originally Posted by danawhitaker View Post
    Except used goods aren't piracy. Seriously, that attitude needs to end. It is greed to expect people to pay $60 for your product and not be able to do what they want with it when they're finished. If I buy a book and resell it, the author doesn't track me down and yell at me. ALL industries that produce physical non-consumable goods are affected by this, across the board - the game industry is *not* special.
    So what? Just because something has been done a certain way for a long time that is no longer working doesn't mean it can't be changed. I personally think it's greed to expect that you can pay for a game once and then do whatever you want with it. You're also ignoring the fact that software has been sold under a license model for many, many years and your copy of Windows 7 on a disc is also a physical non-consumable good but cannot be resold or lent to others.

    I don't have a problem with some type of model akin to the movie industry where first run games are licensed to specific consoles/users and months later games are released on disc at a purchase price point and then that disc can be resold or lent to others. I just don't think the sale price of that unrestricted copy can be as cheap as the individual user license since it can be resold multiple times and none of that revenue will flow back to the publisher.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    So what? Just because something has been done a certain way for a long time that is no longer working doesn't mean it can't be changed. I personally think it's greed to expect that you can pay for a game once and then do whatever you want with it. You're also ignoring the fact that software has been sold under a license model for many, many years and your copy of Windows 7 on a disc is also a physical non-consumable good but cannot be resold or lent to others.

    I don't have a problem with some type of model akin to the movie industry where first run games are licensed to specific consoles/users and months later games are released on disc at a purchase price point and then that disc can be resold or lent to others. I just don't think the sale price of that unrestricted copy can be as cheap as the individual user license since it can be resold multiple times and none of that revenue will flow back to the publisher.
    Why is that greed? It's *my* money. I spent my hard-earned money on something, and if I decide I'm done with it, and choose to sell it, give it away, etc., why should any corporation have the right to tell me I can't? I could understand if it meant I still retained the ability to play the game once I got rid of it - but that's not the case. Do you think all goods should be like this? You mention the movie industry - but you can still buy DVDs and Blu-ray discs and resell them the way the used game market currently works. They aren't locked to your player. You can loan them out, rent them, borrow them, etc, pretty much without restriction. The same goes for books. You can buy them, loan them, trade them, sell them, borrow them from the library. If I buy a shirt from the Gap and decide I don't like the way it looks, the Gap doesn't prohibit me from giving it to a friend, or donating it to Goodwill. I'm sure they'd prefer that I'd send my friend in to buy a brand new shirt from them instead. Every industry would love it if we all patronized their establishments more and paid full price for everything, and never shared or traded. Cars manufacturers would be thrilled if everyone had to buy new cars. Do you think any of these moves would actually be good for the economy? Prohibiting people from being able to purchase things second-hand (and more affordably) is a slippery slope that I'm just not willing to go down. It's bad enough we've gotten to the point we have with software licensing. I wish I could sell my copy of Diablo 3 because it's garbage and not worth the $60 someone has to pay. Unfortunately it's tied to my Battle.net account for eternity, where maybe I could allow my daughter to play it. But only while she's a minor. Then Blizzard restricts you from sharing your Battle.net account. I love corporations telling me what I can and can't let other family members play on the computer I paid for, with the software I paid for.

    Even with licensed software, if I give away or sell my entire computer, with all the software installed, Microsoft has no idea that I've transferred my copy of Windows to someone else. They have no way to stop it. The only way they'd be able to is if they take the Steam, Origin, or Blizzard model and require you to tie your software keys to a single-user account. Why are you so willing to sign away your rights to use products you buy? Do you really hate gaming the way it was in the 80s and 90s and early 2000s so much that you want to see all our rights as collectors out the window? I'm absolutely at a loss I guess as to how people in the gaming community can be so willing to roll over and let the corporations trample all over us. Or maybe there are just some industry shills here pushing the agenda. I can't fathom people choosing to be anti-consumer-rights.

    Why is it for a few decades many companies have been able to do just fine in this industry, yet all of a sudden it's a problem? I saw yesterday the 360 has sold 76 million units worldwide? Cry me a river about lack of profits. Even if the slim profit margin on hardware, that's a lot of money by itself. No one is advocating a model where all games are free and cost no money. Show me ten game companies that went out of business because people were buying used games instead of new ones. I bet you'll find significantly more went of business due to mis-management, failing to understand the demands of the market, and developing or publishing games that were sub-par on a consistent basis. In fact, I bet you won't find one that went out of business because of used games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by danawhitaker View Post
    Why is that greed? It's *my* money. I spent my hard-earned money on something, and if I decide I'm done with it, and choose to sell it, give it away, etc., why should any corporation have the right to tell me I can't? I could understand if it meant I still retained the ability to play the game once I got rid of it - but that's not the case. Do you think all goods should be like this? You mention the movie industry - but you can still buy DVDs and Blu-ray discs and resell them the way the used game market currently works. They aren't locked to your player. You can loan them out, rent them, borrow them, etc, pretty much without restriction. The same goes for books. You can buy them, loan them, trade them, sell them, borrow them from the library. If I buy a shirt from the Gap and decide I don't like the way it looks, the Gap doesn't prohibit me from giving it to a friend, or donating it to Goodwill. I'm sure they'd prefer that I'd send my friend in to buy a brand new shirt from them instead. Every industry would love it if we all patronized their establishments more and paid full price for everything, and never shared or traded. Cars manufacturers would be thrilled if everyone had to buy new cars. Do you think any of these moves would actually be good for the economy? Prohibiting people from being able to purchase things second-hand (and more affordably) is a slippery slope that I'm just not willing to go down. It's bad enough we've gotten to the point we have with software licensing. I wish I could sell my copy of Diablo 3 because it's garbage and not worth the $60 someone has to pay. Unfortunately it's tied to my Battle.net account for eternity, where maybe I could allow my daughter to play it. But only while she's a minor. Then Blizzard restricts you from sharing your Battle.net account. I love corporations telling me what I can and can't let other family members play on the computer I paid for, with the software I paid for.

    Even with licensed software, if I give away or sell my entire computer, with all the software installed, Microsoft has no idea that I've transferred my copy of Windows to someone else. They have no way to stop it. The only way they'd be able to is if they take the Steam, Origin, or Blizzard model and require you to tie your software keys to a single-user account. Why are you so willing to sign away your rights to use products you buy? Do you really hate gaming the way it was in the 80s and 90s and early 2000s so much that you want to see all our rights as collectors out the window? I'm absolutely at a loss I guess as to how people in the gaming community can be so willing to roll over and let the corporations trample all over us. Or maybe there are just some industry shills here pushing the agenda. I can't fathom people choosing to be anti-consumer-rights.

    Why is it for a few decades many companies have been able to do just fine in this industry, yet all of a sudden it's a problem? I saw yesterday the 360 has sold 76 million units worldwide? Cry me a river about lack of profits. Even if the slim profit margin on hardware, that's a lot of money by itself. No one is advocating a model where all games are free and cost no money. Show me ten game companies that went out of business because people were buying used games instead of new ones. I bet you'll find significantly more went of business due to mis-management, failing to understand the demands of the market, and developing or publishing games that were sub-par on a consistent basis. In fact, I bet you won't find one that went out of business because of used games.
    I don't hate old games at all, in fact, I've been collecting for more than two decades now. Having said that, I also love modern games and many big budget games. I don't want those to go away and I certainly don't want to go back to playing simple games programmed by one or two people as the only alternative. As such, I understand that the pay once do whatever you want model doesn't work for big budget modern games. You can disagree all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that financially it's not a stable model.

    I would disagree with your premise that everything has always been great in the video game industry. All of the big players in the pre-Nintendo era collapsed and no longer make consoles or games. Sega is software only. Panasonic, Philips, 3do, and countless other companies saw their video game divisions shutter in the 90s or early 2000s. There are actually a relatively small number of publishers remaining and even fewer hardware manufacturers. Did used games kill all these companies? Of course not. Did it have an impact on their profitability and their ability to stay in business? Absolutely.

    I'm pro consumer, but I'm also someone who makes a living in the entertainment industry, so I understand the underlying economics. There are some types of media where used resale is not a big part of the bottom line. There are others where a pure direct, unrestricted resale model doesn't work. If there was no pay cable, no VOD, no pay per view, no broadcast release and no theatrical release, there would be no profitability in the movie industry. In fact, the physical disc based model of movie sales has collapsed despite the fact that prices have come down significantly. You can't have it both ways. You either have to accept much less elaborate games or accept being nickeled and dimed on DLC or accept a single user/licensed model. Personally, I buy my games new, so I would much rather have more and more elaborate games without worrying about DLC. Does it suck as a collector? Sure, but I haven't bought a DVD or Blu Ray in months and the last physical CD I bought was literally years ago. Frankly, it means less clutter and it's the way all media is going.

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    The current model would work fine if companies stopped wasting money on doomed projects and using the few games that make it to retail to subsidize their failures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kedawa View Post
    The current model would work fine if companies stopped wasting money on doomed projects and using the few games that make it to retail to subsidize their failures.
    That's the nature of creative endeavors unfortunately. You really never know if something is going to be both good and financially successful until you put it out there. Frankly, that's a big reason we get so many sequels nowadays and publishers are very hesitant to take risks. Eliminating used sales won't correct that problem, but it will give developers and publishers a much larger buffer and the ability to take more risks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    I don't hate old games at all, in fact, I've been collecting for more than two decades now. Having said that, I also love modern games and many big budget games. I don't want those to go away and I certainly don't want to go back to playing simple games programmed by one or two people as the only alternative. As such, I understand that the pay once do whatever you want model doesn't work for big budget modern games. You can disagree all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that financially it's not a stable model.

    I would disagree with your premise that everything has always been great in the video game industry. All of the big players in the pre-Nintendo era collapsed and no longer make consoles or games. Sega is software only. Panasonic, Philips, 3do, and countless other companies saw their video game divisions shutter in the 90s or early 2000s. There are actually a relatively small number of publishers remaining and even fewer hardware manufacturers. Did used games kill all these companies? Of course not. Did it have an impact on their profitability and their ability to stay in business? Absolutely.

    I'm pro consumer, but I'm also someone who makes a living in the entertainment industry, so I understand the underlying economics. There are some types of media where used resale is not a big part of the bottom line. There are others where a pure direct, unrestricted resale model doesn't work. If there was no pay cable, no VOD, no pay per view, no broadcast release and no theatrical release, there would be no profitability in the movie industry. In fact, the physical disc based model of movie sales has collapsed despite the fact that prices have come down significantly. You can't have it both ways. You either have to accept much less elaborate games or accept being nickeled and dimed on DLC or accept a single user/licensed model. Personally, I buy my games new, so I would much rather have more and more elaborate games without worrying about DLC. Does it suck as a collector? Sure, but I haven't bought a DVD or Blu Ray in months and the last physical CD I bought was literally years ago. Frankly, it means less clutter and it's the way all media is going.
    WAIT.

    WAIT.

    WAIT.

    WAIT.

    WAIT.

    GUYS.

    WAIT.

    ...

    ...

    ...

    ...

    Did somebody just say something that made sense in this fucking thread?
    "And the book says: 'We may be through with the past, but the past ain't through with us.'"


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