Are "hardcore" gamers ruining the industry?

[Rob2600]

In the Duck Tales thread, a couple of "hardcore" gamers said $15 is too expensive for a new video game. I can't believe we've gotten to the point where "hardcore" gamers feel like $15 is too expensive.

There's also this thread (How will a cheap bastard (me) pay full price for PS4 and Xbox Infinity games ? It's against my nature).

And people say "casual" gamers are ruining the industry? At least they support developers and pay full price for games (Madden, COD, Halo, etc.).

"Hardcore" gamers demand more and more, nitpick everything to death, and wait until games hit the $5 bargain bin before buying them. I've realized many "hardcore" gamers today are very cheap people with entitlement issues. Is this good for the industry??

[Tupin]

The only thing "ruining" the industry are people who insist on categorizing people into neat little groups based on what games they play the most.

As a consumer, I'm going to be smart. I'm not going to spend $60 on a game when I know it will be $40 next month. If this causes some companies to go under or sequels not to be made, well then, I guess the industry learned its lesson. Despite what some people believe, the games industry revolves around us. As a responsible consumer, supporting companies that have good business practices and refusing to buy from ones that have bad is very important. It's the only thing we can do against companies that look for every possible way to screw us over.

Saying that "hardcore gamers" are the death of the industry is absolutely silly to me. If it weren't for people like that, who actually stand up against companies, the games industry would have degenerated into nothing but freemium games and realistic FPSes. There's nothing wrong with wanting quality.

As for not spending $15, I suppose I could see the logic behind it. Capcom hasn't exactly been very friendly to consumers, cancelling several franchise titles and releasing sub-par games. They bring out this game that is obviously trying to appeal based on nostalgia, and rather than scoop it up, some people question their ulterior motives. Some may disagree with paying so much for a digital game. I don't think there's anything wrong with either of those thoughts. However, I will still be buying the game because I like DuckTales.

[Rob2600]

As a consumer, I'm going to be smart. I'm not going to spend $60 on a game when I know it will be $40 next month. If this causes some companies to go under or sequels not to be made, well then, I guess the industry learned its lesson.

What lesson is that?

Despite what some people believe, the games industry revolves around us. As a responsible consumer, supporting companies that have good business practices and refusing to buy from ones that have bad is very important. It's the only thing we can do against companies that look for every possible way to screw us over.

Saying that "hardcore gamers" are the death of the industry is absolutely silly to me. If it weren't for people like that, who actually stand up against companies, the games industry would have degenerated into nothing but freemium games and realistic FPSes. There's nothing wrong with wanting quality.

There's a difference between standing up to bad companies, and making good companies suffer because hardcore gamers are too cheap to buy games at full price. I'm all for "voting with your wallet" but when hardcore gamers wait for cool new releases to hit the bargain bin, what vote are they casting in that situation??

[vrikkgwj]

The terms "hardcore" and "casual" for gamers is subjective as can be, and therefore the whole argument about which camp is ruining or saving gaming is completely insane. How can someone yell at the other side of the fence if they don't even know the boundaries?

I've been gaming for years. I like games. I read about them, post on forums, and listen to podcasts. But I don't play games often (maybe once or twice a week for an hour maximum), and have no idea the new games coming out. Where does this put me? A hardcore onlooker? A casual gamer but who likes to read?

It's nonsense.

[Tupin]

What lesson is that?



There's a difference between standing up to bad companies, and making good companies suffer because hardcore gamers are too cheap to buy games at full price. I'm all for "voting with your wallet" but when hardcore gamers wait for cool new releases to hit the bargain bin, what vote are they casting in that situation??

If a company does nothing to convince me that their game is worth buying at full price, they deserve to "suffer" by me waiting to buy until its cheaper. I don't care how good the company is. I'm not going to buy a game at full price for their health. I'll buy it if they've convinced me it's worth the asking price.

[Xander]

The terms "hardcore" and "casual" for gamers is subjective as can be, and therefore the whole argument about which camp is ruining or saving gaming is completely insane. How can someone yell at the other side of the fence if they don't even know the boundaries?

Well said. It's so much easier to understand an issue when you put people into well defined categories, it's a human trait. In this case it's not possible as the categories are not well defined at all and the issue is and will remain a huge mess to sort out.

I don't have an explanation and much less of a solution to offer either. But when you know you have a lot of gamers not willing to pay 15$ bucks for a game and when you have gamers sitting on a game until it hits the bargain bin before buying it, you get to understand a little bit why some companies want to kill the used game market.

[Bojay1997]

In the Duck Tales thread, a couple of "hardcore" gamers said $15 is too expensive for a new video game. I can't believe we've gotten to the point where "hardcore" gamers feel like $15 is too expensive.

And people say "casual" gamers are ruining the industry? At least they support developers and pay full price for games (Madden, COD, Halo, etc.).

"Hardcore" gamers demand more and more, nitpick everything to death, and wait until games hit the $5 bargain bin before buying them. I've realized many "hardcore" gamers today are very cheap people with entitlement issues. Is this good for the industry??

I think you're overreacting and frankly, if the game is good, it will probably sell well at $15. Having said that, I'm one of those people that waits for games to fall in price before I buy them on modern consoles and with digital stuff especially, I tend to be very cheap. I don't think gamers who share my practices are hurting the industry. The industry is well aware of us and does things like create expensive collector's editions and launch copy DLC or other upgrades. Sometimes that stuff works in getting me to pay full price and sometimes it doesn't. Steam, Microsoft and Sony all do regular digital sales on their respective stores to capture revenue from gamers who share my practices and they seem to be doing pretty well, as do most of the publishers that participate in those sales.

In any event, $15 might be too much for a new video game depending on how extensive the remake is and how good the game is. None of us really know until it's finished. There are lots of great games that launch for $5 or $10 out of the gate, so it's not like price and quality are mutually exclusive.

[Rob2600]

First of all, I put "hardcore" in quotes because I know it's a vague term. But I'm using it in this thread to represent gamers who read all the magazines, web sites, and blogs, who also participate on forums, and have large game collections...who are also the type of gamer who complains that the Wii is catering to "casual" gamers and Nintendo can go F itself...etc.

Those things are fine...but then these same "hardcore" gamers refuse to pay full price for anything and look for any way possible to screw over developers.

I'm really tired of the "you better release an AAA game that blows my mind, but I'm going to wait for it to hit the bargain bin before buying it...but hey, I'm a 'core' gamer and I'm the one really supporting this industry, not those part-time 'casual' gamers" entitled mentality.

I think you're overreacting and frankly, if the game is good, it will probably sell well at $15. Having said that, I'm one of those people that waits for games to fall in price before I buy them on modern consoles and with digital stuff especially, I tend to be very cheap. I don't think gamers who share my practices are hurting the industry. The industry is well aware of us and does things like create expensive collector's editions and launch copy DLC or other upgrades. Sometimes that stuff works in getting me to pay full price and sometimes it doesn't. Steam, Microsoft and Sony all do regular digital sales on their respective stores to capture revenue from gamers who share my practices and they seem to be doing pretty well, as do most of the publishers that participate in those sales.

In any event, $15 might be too much for a new video game depending on how extensive the remake is and how good the game is. None of us really know until it's finished. There are lots of great games that launch for $5 or $10 out of the gate, so it's not like price and quality are mutually exclusive.

If people want to wait for games to go on sale, that's fine. The thing I have a problem with is people posturing all over the internet claiming to be "core" gamers or "hardcore" gamers and that Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft better cater to them or else they'll go bankrupt...but then those same gamers who call themselves so important to the industry refuse to buy new releases at launch or pay full price for them. They wait for games to go on clearance and then snatch them up for pennies on the dollar.

From a value perspective that's great! And if people want to be cheap and wait for games to hit the clearance rack before buying them, that's fine. But then don't blab all over the internet about how gamers like you are so vital to the industry and if companies stop catering to you, they'll be sorry. Don't blab all over the internet about how "casual" gamers are ruining the industry and if big companies cater to "casuals" they're making a huge financial mistake because the "core" gamers will turn their backs on them.

Guess what? "Core"/"hardcore" gamers have already turned their backs on them years ago by refusing to pay for anything.

And on top of that, "core" gamers keep demanding better and better games. Bigger levels, more detailed graphics, better physics, more varied music, more options, etc. Those gamers want and want and want, but they don't want to pay. So they wait for the AAA title to hit the bargain bin...and then after they finally buy it, they nitpick it to death and badmouth it all over the internet. "The controls are horrible because I have to press A to shoot instead of B." "Some of the textures are blurry." "I saw some clipping on this one part." "The voice acting should've been better." "The single player missions should've been longer."

They think they automatically deserve technologically and artistically advanced games for pennies just because they've been gaming for a couple of decades. They have a false sense of entitlement and are overly cheap and overly negative/nitpicky/snarky.

I think it's ruining the industry. I also think companies are wising up and are catering to that type of gamer less and less. Companies can never win by catering to that type of gamer because that type of gamer is never satisfied. It's a very selfish, immature attitude that is prevalent in gaming.

[Tupin]

You call it being selfish and immature, I call it what you have a right to as a consumer who spends your money on a product. I have no qualms with buying a "AAA" game day one. They had better just impress me a lot otherwise I'm waiting, though.

If you hype your game up to be the best thing since sliced bread and can't deliver (Peter Molyneux, Notch, Phil Fish, Team Meat, et cetera) then you deserve to be mocked and your game deserves to languish in bargain bins.

Again: if a company can't make a game look realistically good enough for me to buy it at full price, they don't deserve my $60.

[The 1 2 P]

First of all, I put "hardcore" in quotes because I know it's a vague term. But I'm using it in this thread to represent gamers who read all the magazines, web sites, and blogs, who also participate on forums, and have large game collections...who are also the type of gamer who complains that the Wii is catering to "casual" gamers and Nintendo can go F itself...etc.

Those things are fine...but then these same "hardcore" gamers refuse to pay full price for anything and look for any way possible to screw over developers.

I'm really tired of the "you better release an AAA game that blows my mind, but I'm going to wait for it to hit the bargain bin before buying it...but hey, I'm a 'core' gamer and I'm the one really supporting this industry, not those part-time 'casual' gamers" entitled mentality.



If people want to wait for games to go on sale, that's fine. The thing I have a problem with is people posturing all over the internet claiming to be "core" gamers or "hardcore" gamers and that Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft better cater to them or else they'll go bankrupt...but then those same gamers who call themselves so important to the industry refuse to buy new releases at launch or pay full price for them. They wait for games to go on clearance and then snatch them up for pennies on the dollar.

From a value perspective that's great! And if people want to be cheap and wait for games to hit the clearance rack before buying them, that's fine. But then don't blab all over the internet about how gamers like you are so vital to the industry and if companies stop catering to you, they'll be sorry. Don't blab all over the internet about how "casual" gamers are ruining the industry and if big companies cater to "casuals" they're making a huge financial mistake because the "core" gamers will turn their backs on them.

Guess what? "Core"/"hardcore" gamers have already turned their backs on them years ago by refusing to pay for anything.

And on top of that, "core" gamers keep demanding better and better games. Bigger levels, more detailed graphics, better physics, more varied music, more options, etc. Those gamers want and want and want, but they don't want to pay. So they wait for the AAA title to hit the bargain bin...and then after they finally buy it, they nitpick it to death and badmouth it all over the internet. "The controls are horrible because I have to press A to shoot instead of B." "Some of the textures are blurry." "I saw some clipping on this one part." "The voice acting should've been better." "The single player missions should've been longer."

They think they automatically deserve technologically and artistically advanced games for pennies just because they've been gaming for a couple of decades. They have a false sense of entitlement and are overly cheap and overly negative/nitpicky/snarky.

I think it's ruining the industry. I also think companies are wising up and are catering to that type of gamer less and less. Companies can never win by catering to that type of gamer because that type of gamer is never satisfied. It's a very selfish, immature attitude that is prevalent in gaming.

So if I'm reading this correctly you don't actually have a problem with gamers being cheap and waiting for price cuts, sales or titles to hit bargain bins.....as long as they don't talk about it or complain about the companies. Or something like that. But the thing is, as long as people are spending money on a product they are entitled to have an opinion on that product, rather they bought it for $60 or $6. And as you already know, the majority of them enjoy sharing that opinion.

I don't think any one segment of the industry is ruining gaming. I think it's a combination of many things thats causes people to have a negative attitude towards the future of the industry. As for $15 games being too expensive, sometimes they are. Even $10 games could be considered too much. I really liked the X-Men Arcade dlc game but it lasted around 30 minutes or less to beat the whole thing and that is not worth $10-$15 to me(which is why I waited for it to go on sale). I did buy Alan Wake: American Nightmare for the full $15 because that title was worth that price to me and I also wanted to support Remedy. But every game for me(and probably most people) will be a case by case basis for what I feel is worth $5, $10, $15 or $60. It's my money so me and only me will decide rather it's worth it to spend it on any given game/product.

[Rob2600]

So if I'm reading this correctly you don't actually have a problem with gamers being cheap and waiting for price cuts, sales or titles to hit bargain bins.....as long as they don't talk about it or complain about the companies. Or something like that. But the thing is, as long as people are spending money on a product they are entitled to have an opinion on that product, rather they bought it for $60 or $6. And as you already know, the majority of them enjoy sharing that opinion.

I'm fine with gamers who are cheap. I'm not fine with gamers who are cheap, but label themselves "hardcore" and claim they're the backbone of the industry and that companies will be in financial ruin if they don't cater to them.

When I worked at EB in the late 90s and early 2000s, the "hardcore" gamers were the ones who'd constantly ask to exchange games every week for new ones because "the graphics weren't good enough" or "I thought it'd be better." "Casual" gamers spent plenty of money in my store and were usually very easy to deal with, whereas "hardcore" gamers wanted infinite exchanges and were a huge pain to deal with.

Contrary to what they think, they aren't the lifeblood of the industry. Instead, they're the bloodsucking leeches of the industry.

[Bojay1997]

I'm fine with gamers who are cheap. I'm not fine with gamers who are cheap, but label themselves "hardcore" and claim they're the backbone of the industry and that companies will be in financial ruin if they don't cater to them.

When I worked at EB in the late 90s and early 2000s, the "hardcore" gamers were the ones who'd constantly ask to exchange games every week for new ones because "the graphics weren't good enough" or "I thought it'd be better." "Casual" gamers spent plenty of money in my store and were usually very easy to deal with, whereas "hardcore" gamers wanted infinite exchanges and were a huge pain to deal with.

Contrary to what they think, they aren't the lifeblood of the industry. Instead, they're the bloodsucking leeches of the industry.

What does it matter what they or anyone thinks or how they label themselves? The publishers and developers don't sit around reading forums and talking to random gamers who refuse to pay full price. The games industry is just as sophisticated as the movie and television industry and it's a mature enough industry to ignore the noise and pursue a direction they know will be profitable. They know their audience far better than you or anyone else complaining on a web forum does.

Frankly, I don't understand how you're making this giant leap that if people won't pay $15 for a remake of a NES game that they are going to ruin the industry. The thing that's "ruining" the industry is massive competition from an ever growing wave of other forms of low cost entertainment and cannabalization of video games sales by that media. To stop that, you would have to go back in time and destroy the Internet before it became a viable consumer and digital media platform.

[needler420]

Problem with TC and many people posting is that they associate hardcore gamers with a monetary value and quantity of games. Being a hardcore gamer is based on the amount of time you play video games and your skill level to progress in that game. Example who gets the highest score in a game or gets to the last board of an arcade or can set record times in a game etc.


TC is delusional to think that any kind of standard toward being a hardcore gamer is accociated with the amount of money you spend to purchase your games. Supproting the developes of games you like is always a good thing. Hardcore with COD, Madden, Halo etc shouldn't even be mentioned.

My friend that works at a bank plays COD and madden daily. He is as casual as casual gamers can be.

[Leo_A]

In the Duck Tales thread, a couple of "hardcore" gamers said $15 is too expensive for a new video game. I can't believe we've gotten to the point where "hardcore" gamers feel like $15 is too expensive.

Since anyone that has paid that thread attention recently knows I'm one of the people you're clearly referencing, I should point out that first of all, I never said that I wasn't going to buy it or that $15 was too expensive here. I would think my interest and several postings in the thread show that I'm very interested in the project even at $15.

And as I said, I never stated that I wouldn't buy this game or that $15 was too much for it. I merely showed an understanding when someone else mentioned being uncomfortable with buying a $15 download, stated that I think long and hard about $15 purchases myself, showed a preference for XBLA compilation disc for the more pricey downloads when possible, and clearly showed my opinion about digital purchases. I'm fine with things like $5 downloads and as my Xbox Live account shows, such games account for the bulk of my activity since buying an Xbox 360 at its 1 year anniversary.

But $15 is in a territory that I'm not entirely comfortable with where I haven't made many purchases and I give careful consideration on those that I have. And I'm playing a waiting game on several in the hope they will appear on future XBLA compilation disc. It just means that this game won't be an impulse buy.

[needler420]

Since anyone that has paid that thread attention recently knows I'm one of the people you're clearly referencing, I should point out that first of all, I never said that I wasn't going to buy it or that $15 was too expensive here. I would think my interest and several postings in the thread show that I'm very interested in the project even at $15.

Secondly, I don't identify myself as a hardcore gamer. In fact I despise that term. It typically equates, at least the image I visualize when I see that term, people that only play the latest Madden, Halo, and Call of Duty. I'm not one of those people. I consider myself a classic gamer that's more than willing to jump into modern gaming when something appeals to me before heading back into classic gaming until the next exception appears (And much of the time when I am on a current generation console is spent playing classic games). On Xbox Live, the likely platform if I were to purchase this, I classify myself in the "Recreation" group. It's the group that most closely fits the category I think I fall into on the Xbox 360 (Where most of my digital purchases are made and where I'd likely download this instead of on my PS3).

And I do buy downloads and retail games at full price from time to time, although I'm much more careful in the retail world after being stung several times when I bought last generation games at $50 and when finally getting to playing them, could've bought them new for about $10. Sales or discounts, while I watch out for them and take advantage of them, won't be the primary factor that detirmines if I eventually purchase this. Opinions at communities like this, my demo experience with it, and so on will decide that. If I think a better deal is imminent when I decide I want to buy this, I'll wait and be patient. But if I don't, I'm willing to pull the trigger at $15.

And as I said, I never stated that I wouldn't buy this game or that $15 was too much for it. I merely showed an understanding when someone else mentioned being uncomfortable with buying a $15 download, stated that I think long and hard about $15 purchases myself, showed a preference for XBLA compilation disc for the more pricey downloads when possible, and clearly showed my opinion about digital purchases. I'm fine with things like $5 downloads and as my Xbox Live account shows, such games account for the bulk of my activity since buying an Xbox 360 at its 1 year anniversary.

But $15 is in a territory that I'm not entirely comfortable with where I haven't made many purchases and I give careful consideration on those that I have. And I'm playing a waiting game on several in the hope they will appear on future XBLA compilation disc. It just means that this game won't be an impulse buy.

When you hear hardcore you think of Madden,COD and halo? You must not use gamefaqs much. I think that is literally 100% opposite ends of the hardcore gamers.

Those games are meant for people who work 40 plus hous a week and want something to casually play when they get home. That is the majority of the people playing those games.

The people who play those games hardcore for like MLG and tournaments are few and far between compared to the amount of casuals. Those games are like I said meant for casual people with work schedules and kids who need replay value because they can't afford new games and the luxury of collecting.

The only sense of hardcore I get from that is they are playing that particular game so much it would be considered hardcore. Hardcore is more so based on skill level. Then amount of time spent on a game.

If someone can play a game and always set 1 million points compared to 100,000 that average people do that is hardcore.

[Leo_A]

Most gamers from my experience that refer to themselves as "hardcore" gamers are male teens or 20 somethings that don't blink an eye at spending three or four hours a night playing Call of Duty most nights of the week online. They barely touch more than two or three mainstream series and spend hundreds of hours playing the same games online during the course of the year until the next round of annual updates appear.

When you go to a place like here where people love a wide variety of genres, have interests spanning many generations of gaming, and appreciate niches like import gaming and modern vertical and horizontal shooters, those are the truly dedicated fans of this industry as I see it. And almost as a rule, we all shy away from that term since we don't like what it equates to. And I also suspect that many of us think it has a bit of an immature ring to it.

And GameFaqs is a vast wasteland where their forums are concerned. Go look at something like many of the Atari 2600 forums. Thousands upon thousands of postings yet none have anything to do with the topic at hand. I require at least a basic level of proper moderation in order to participate at a forum. That simply isn't present there and the results of it show.

If I'm using that site, it's to look up things like cheats, release dates, and rely on their database of software released for each platform. GameFaqs has its place but it sure as heck isn't to participate in their strange collection of forum communities.

[needler420]

GameFaqs is a vast wasteland where the forums are concerned. Go look at something like many of the Atari 2600 forums. Thousands upons thousands of postings yet none have anything to do with the topic at hand. I require at least a basic level of proper moderation to participate at a forum.

If I'm a user, it's to look up things like cheats, release dates, and rely on their database of software released for each platform.

Everything you say does not deter what I said or the sites credibility. It's well known that on gamefaqs the kids run the site rabid.

You have to realize though its the biddgest video game site with an all purpose discussion about video games. So with that you get all ages. Ask yourself what gaming forum you're on and what it's fundamentals are and you can get a sense of what the demograph will be.

Like this particular gaming site is focused on classic gaming and collectors. Any day of the week more people are in the classic section then the modern. So given that it's pretty obvious you're not going to hear a snarky 13 year old tell us about his nostaglia playing SNES as a kid.

[8-Bit Archeology]

Once upon a time "Hardcore" gamers where looked at as the players of RPGs and more "Complex" games. Reviews and polls agreed. Now when I hear "Hardcore Gamer" I think of MLG Pros. I think the main problem is there has never been a true definition of a hardcore gamer.

[Leo_A]

Everything you say does not deter what I said or the sites credibility.

I'm not out to change anyone's opinion. I simply provided my own. I require at least a basic semblance of forum moderation if I'm to participate. And when situations exist like this one, clearly that isn't the case.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/584743-football

[PreZZ]

Are Hardcore gamers ruining the industry? No. The industry is ruining the industry. DLC, micro transactions, season pass, online pass, no manuals, dirt cheap prices 3 months after release (*cough*ubisoft*cough*), releasing the same game on 2 or 3 different skus with added content (street fighter 4, borderlands come to mind). When you know borderlands 2 will be available GOTY with all DLC a year after release for 39.99, why bother with the original 59.99 game? Companies are wasting too much time making DLC instead of making new quality games. And also whats up with every single game getting special edition packages with figurines and whatnot at 79.99 to 99.99? I can understand for a couple of franchises to have something special, but generic games like Duke Nukem forever and ghost recon? I prefer a company like Atlus making limited early editions for the same price with bonus stuff or Xseed with the Last Story (the awesome package made me buy the game!!!). Games have never been as affordable as they are this generation, I own so many ps3 and 360 games its crazy, they are tons of great software at 9.99 to 19.99. I have games still shrinkwrapped from 3 and 4 years ago, I dont have time to try them all, my nephew went nuts when he came over and unwrapped many games and tried them one after another! Also companies like EA for making dick moves on every game they release. When you know hardcore gamers are expecting games to be 19.99 or less, something the industry created themselves, you know that something went wrong. Back in the 80's if you had more than 8 cartridges for your nes you were either a spoiled kid or a rich kid! Games like final fantasy 3 cost 119.99 BEFORE taxes in canada in 1995 and they still sold a lot of copies.Im sure a lot off you here have tons of games you have never played and never will and are still buying them when you see bargain bin prices on cool games.