Best and Worst N64 games?

[Aussie2B]

Huh? None of what you're saying makes any sense at all.

I never said that the Dual Shock and 360 controller are "almost the most ergonomic" for me. Far from it. I would rank MANY controllers between the N64 and those. With the 360 controller, I have to choose between a comfortable hold and a decent grip on the stick, because I can't have both (my thumb just doesn't reach far enough unless I hold the controller in an incredibly awkward and uncomfortable way, so I resort to placing the tip of my thumb on the bottom left edge of the stick), and I find the Dual Shock too heavy, with grips that are too stubby, and a stick that's also in an uncomfortable, unnatural spot (so I usually use the original, non-Dual Shock PS1 controller unless a game really benefits from analog).

Like I said, I don't think I'm "special". There is just as much defense of the controller in this topic as criticism, as you point out. I wouldn't say it's rare to come across support of it. It's just a divisive controller, so at most it's 50/50. Maybe it could be considered bad design that it isn't universally loved to quite the same extent as some other controllers, but I know I sure as hell ain't gonna wish it was designed totally differently when it works so well for me personally. It's also worth pointing out that, as a Japanese system, the controller is first and foremost designed for the Japanese, who, in general, have smaller hands than the average American gamer, like myself. Due to the lack of RPGs, the N64 wasn't hugely popular in Japan to begin with, but I have to wonder, for those who did play it, if the complaints about the controller were far fewer over there.

You're completely misreading if you think I'm saying my experience is more important than anybody else's. I merely want to see mutual respect. No controller is going to be comfortable OR uncomfortable for EVERYBODY. As somebody who's been on the Retrogaming Roundtable for many years, I'm just weary of EVERY damn N64 topic degrading into an argument over the controller (or the ever-popular "the N64 has no good games"). If you (I'm using "you" in a general sense here) hate the controller and/or system, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but don't look at every N64 topic as an opportunity to troll and vent. Your opinions aren't facts, whether you hate the controller/system or love the controller/system. And you (Ed) are entitled to think that this topic isn't as I see it, but you've been gone from the board for long stretches as best as I can tell so you may not be able to recognize the pattern as well as I. Nobody has to listen to me, but I'd like just once to see an N64 topic that isn't bogged down with the same tired old stupid arguments. Can't we, just once, talk about the GAMES?

[Ed Oscuro]

You write the same thing a few times over, so I'll try to restructure this in order to be brief but clear:

First of all, I understand and commiserate with you about repetition and uselessness - it is annoying to have people talk about the same things over and over. You may have noticed that I have had a sabbatical from DP for a while, and this is partially the reason. It's just not worth it to tell the new people that some topics are withered "evergreens" or that some topics are just plain dumb. But, seriously, do YOU play your collection? When I don't like something just based on my opinion of its use, I try not to respond to it. Getting called out for things I said, and especially when I get called out for things I didn't say, is an exception which I think you can understand. I don't try to confuse facts and opinions so that people forget they were answering a simple question with their own humble observations from personal experience. I don't respond to factual evidence by saying "I am super special and these things do not apply to me, so therefore your facts about how they DO work for some people...they are invalid!" Well, guess what - your feeling "uncomfortable" with a controller is trumped by somebody else's feeling pain using another. This is not much of an exaggeration (see Mario Party's Fake Jesus comic above). Obviously, it would be nice to let facts be facts without dismissing individual or group opinions.

You know what else is annoying? Having whole realms of discussion become Officially Disinvited, verboten. Once upon a time it happened to Anthony1 and RGB. So yeah, how about them opinions.

Speaking of things that are bad and which sap brainpower, let's talk about needler trying to get a fellow Forumer kicked out for repros. Let's talk about people who think that ignorance is strength and resent the fact that other people might have their own pet peeves and even, gasp, agendas they would like to pursue...by writing comments in a public forum! [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Gf8NK1WAOc]I am shocked, shocked![/quote]

Look, you got into this thread late, and after your initial claim that I was stirring up shit turned out to be untrue, you tried again with something like 5 variations on that theme in your last post, and you started talking about people, "using 'you' in a general sense here," who aren't actually here.

So then we have your final plea. "Can't we talk about the games for once?" Yes, by all means. You're welcome to comment on my own postings about good and even underrated games on the N64. That would be awesome!

I'd like just once to see an N64 topic that isn't bogged down with the same tired old stupid arguments. Can't we, just once, talk about the GAMES?

Can't we, just once, talk about WHAT PEOPLE WERE TALKING ABOUT? Or what WE WANT to talk about? WITHOUT calls for censorship? Because I'll tell you what - it's a free country. And your attempts to fight about this have only made things uglier and more confused. Even if you had started out by saying "I don't want to talk about the N64 controller, but the games," even that wouldn't have gotten a negative reaction.

I have a piece of advice for you failed censors: If you don't want to read about something, DON'T WRITE ABOUT IT.

At the same time, I will be happy to agree that we should put aside discussion of the N64 controller for this topic, because it does tend to overshadow discussion of the great and groundbreaking games available for this system. See? That wasn't painful or aggressive at all! No reason to make it so, no facts disrespected, no toes trodden on. I even managed not to use the possibly, if inadvertently, sexist phrase "super special snowflake" once!

[A Black Falcon]

I like the Dreamcast controller quite a bit as well... it's not quite as good as the Saturn 3D Controller or the N64 controller, but still, it's a great gamepad.

That's a nice big lump of "well I never had that problem." Well, good for you. I wish everybody was that lucky.

I still have no idea why you're calling it painful to hold. On the right side it's a quite normal controller, and in the center it's similar to positions like the analog stick on the Xbox/360 controllers, or the d-pad on Sony controllers. As for the left... no need to hold the left side in 95% of titles, it's only for fighting and wrestling games and a few platformers.

I used the N64 controller for years and years. I had that system and used it regularly well into the PS2 era, and I've got a huge box of different style N64 controllers. I think I know which end plugs into the system by now.

So if we split the difference between a modern-style Dual Shock or Xbox controller being "almost the most ergonomic," as far as you're concerned, then it's no big deal for you either way.

Then we get people who find the analog joystick in the N64 an absolute disaster and indeed uncomfortable to use at times, whereas the Xbox sticks seem to work for everybody. That's a much bigger difference.

Absolute disaster? No, it's not usually stated that strongly... that'd be, like, the Atari 5200 or something.

A standard joystick should be comfortable for everybody to use, not just the special people.

Basically, you're saying "I feel that my slight comfort improvement is more important than somebody else being able to use the thing comfortably at all." Cool story.

The idea that only 'special" people actually like the N64 controller is completely ridiculous and absurd. Really, it's mostly Sony fans who hate it, and I think that a lot of them have an agenda...

I know that it's not normal looking, but every controller has its own unique things about it.

Before you jump into the thread and start saying that people are denying other people their personal opinions, maybe you better take a look at the earlier posts. Your accusation that people are just hunting down N64 threads to troll them is completely wrong. Sol Badguy states, in the fourth post, that he didn't understand why there was any dislike of the N64 controller, and a few of us brought up some reasons. Not "you're wrong to like the N64" reasons, but reasons based on simple observation without attempting to overstate things. Certainly nobody said that it was wrong to personally like the N64 controller. I didn't come to DP just to take part in an echo chamber. Opinions (and facts!) can be respected for what they are, and we certainly don't need people coming into threads saying "stop what you were talking about because IDONTLIKEIT" - that doesn't help things at all.

[Ed Oscuro]

I still have no idea why you're calling it painful to hold.

I don't know either, since I keep saying it's the joystick I'm most at odds with. The overall shape is awkward for many people, that's all I've said on that count.

The idea that only 'special" people actually like the N64 controller is completely ridiculous and absurd. Really, it's mostly Sony fans who hate it, and I think that a lot of them have an agenda...

Again with the talking to people who aren't in the room. I assure you that you're not talking to one of these hateful agenda-driven people. I think only the arrival of $2.99 PSX games saw me getting a bigger PSX library than N64 (I haven't actually got any numbers on which system I have more games for in total, or which one I have more games I enjoy for), and only the strange framerate-induced headaches keep me away from playing the N64 oftener (but, as I stated earlier, I have a SECRET PLAN to overcome this, so yeah, it's not for lack of love). I also think we all know that if we went out and had random people hold both the N64 joystick and a Dual Shock, they would find the Dual Shock much more intuitive to use and easy to securely hold while easily manipulating the joysticks, all pretty good points. Saying "mostly Sony fans" (whoops I started typing "Microsoft" there) like it is pretty silly when even Nintendo went over to a more comfortable joystick and placement more like the Hori and in turn more like the Dual Shock; in turn Microsoft copied that rather closely. So did a whole bunch of third-party joystick manufacturers...in fact, we were talking about one of these manufacturers earlier - Hori, who made the Dual Shock-inspired N64 controller with a more comfortably sited stick. I still won't rave about the texturing of the GameCube and Hori controllers' joysticks, but Baby steps towards honesty, here. We'll get there eventually.

I wonder if some of this disagreement is due to differences in holding various sticks. I can't find my Hori N64 controller at the moment, but I compared a bunch:

N64: Very small surface area. Holding the controller so that you can press the left shoulder at any time, and quickly press either the d-pad or the main joystick, requires holding the left wing, rather like the Dual Shock in practice. I know there is a "grasp the center" method, but this seems wrong because then you give up using the L button at any time. However, I find that I have to stretch my thumb a good ways out to get to the center joystick. Having gotten there, I also find my thumb tends to slide off the center joystick nub - especially with up-left or down-right directional inputs. This is why I talk about pain from putting your fingers up against that thin hard disk, and this is why people play Mario party by placing the joystick against the center of their palms.

Dual Shock: The joysticks are much closer to the hand so that you do not have to stretch the thumb towards them, and it takes less exertion to move them in circles. The Dual Shock joysticks also have a wide and pleasantly textured surface that allows you to keep a grip more easily. I honestly have trouble understanding how anybody, unless they get hand cramps, can find the "thumb close to fist" concept more awkward.

Dreamcast: The stick is very close to the d-pad, unlike the N64, so you do not lose a lot of time switching back and forth, so the d-pad can be used for more timing-important game functions. It's still a bit small and unergonomically blocky, though, seemingly more than the N64's d-pad, but like the Hori stick's smallness, what might seem like a demerit actually seems like a good thing: Pressing firmly down, it's easier to get feedback about which direction you're pushing the d-pad in; it's got more downwards travel, and the d-pad shape is actually quite comfortable. But what most stands out here is that once again the joystick is close to the grip.

GameCube: Like all the other controllers, the joystick is again close to the grip. However the joystick texture is still not very good, and it's still thin and doesn't have much of a lip. Unfortunately, there was some kind of oily substance on the top of mine...excuse me, I'm going to go grab a cloth to wipe it down now, ugh. First, though, I should mention that having the stick closer to the grip did alleviate a lot of the trouble of the N64's joystick design and placement. Now it's easier to readjust your grip on the stick while keeping a firm grip on the left handle. The joystick's top surface is also wider, so slipping is still slightly less likely than with the N64.

If anybody says "I use the N64 joystick by holding the center column and I can put my thumb wherever I like!" I WILL LAUGH AT YOU, because your grip style cedes one whole button and probably also requires you remove your hand from the central column to even get to the d-pad...and that assumes a left-handed joystick grip; the right-handed middle section grip would be even clumsier and less useful. Yeah, this controller isn't very leftie-friendly either, from what I can tell.

[SOL BADGUY]

I was in a retro store once, and the only reason I heard some guys complaint about it, was because of how weird it was shaped. It wasnt painful to them, they just didnt like how it looked.

[Ed Oscuro]

I was in a retro store once, and the only reason I heard some guys complaint about it, was because of how weird it was shaped. It wasnt painful to them, they just didnt like how it looked.

cool story, srsly

By the way, would you guys do a little experiment:

1.) Make a fist
2.) See where your thumb lies (if you closed your fist with your thumb inside, I will laugh at you again, because you're going to break your thumb punching somebody that way)
3.) Observation: Thumb closer to fist = good.
4.) Observation: Thumb able to move up and down over fist = good.

Forcing your thumb away from your fist, and also out at an angle, gives you less leverage and more distance to travel (again, assuming you are gripping the left wing of the controller and not the center; if you grip the center, see my post above). This might not be a problem for people with quite large hands or thick thumb pads, admittedly.

But yeah I admit the real reason is that the N64 controller looks too cool. (It does.)

[SOL BADGUY]

If you think about it, Nintendo has always made weird controllers.

[Koa Zo]

best:
Sin & Punishment
Bangaioh

[Aussie2B]

Look, you got into this thread late, and after your initial claim that I was stirring up shit turned out to be untrue, you tried again with something like 5 variations on that theme in your last post, and you started talking about people, "using 'you' in a general sense here," who aren't actually here.

I'm not really interested in taking this any further since, as you said, the more I respond to this, the more I'm taking the discussion away from where I'd like it to be. But I do want to point out that my initial reply to this topic directly followed a post of yours by mere coincidence. It was never intended as a direct reply to you or an attempt to call you out on anything. If we're going to name names, it was understatement who got got the ball rolling in terms of turning this into yet another topic for N64 system/controller haters to vent and troll. My response was simply a commentary on the general direction that the topic was going in, not an issue with any single person, and an expression of my frustration over how just about every N64 topic on this board goes.

Finally, FYI, if you're stretching your thumb from the left prong to the stick or otherwise trying to access every button, you're using it wrong. This isn't an opinion; it's fact. Nintendo made it very clear back then what the purposes of the controller were and how it should be used, and every game's manual clearly showed in pictures how to hold the controller for that specific game (sometimes with multiple options). The N64 controller is all about customizability, both for the developer and the player. You are NEVER intended to access every button at once. Thinking you need to access everything at once and complaining about how the controller feels as you do so is the equivalent of jamming on the shoulder buttons of a SNES controller in a game that doesn't use them and getting mad that nothing happens. The L button and the Z trigger are typically equivalents in N64 games (if the L button is assigned any function at all; many developers didn't want to incorporate the left prong in their control schemes). The only time you should access both the L button and Z trigger is if you're using a control scheme that uses the left and center prongs (I think some FPS do this, but overall it's pretty rare), in which case the right prong and its buttons is unneeded.

It amazes me that after all these years so many gamers STILL don't understand how to use the N64 controller. Is it really that confusing? I immediately knew how to hold the controller when I tried out Super Mario 64 on the store displays in September 1996. Granted, I was getting Nintendo Power and read about the system, so I probably had a slight advantage. Either way, unused buttons weren't some foreign concept in gaming prior to the N64, so I don't know why gamers seem to think that they need to access all at any given moment. Hell, even if you tried, wouldn't you test out the buttons and quickly learn that some buttons do nothing or do the same thing as another? Wouldn't you then adjust your grip to something that would feel better? I generally don't like the feel of resting my index fingers on shoulder buttons, so one of the first things I do with games on controllers that have them is see what, if anything, the shoulder buttons do, and if they do nothing or something I'll rarely use, I immediately move my fingers off of them and rest my fingers below.

Err... I kinda failed there at keeping this short and nipping this discussion in the bud, but, yeah, this is the last I'm going to talk about the N64 controller in this topic. Some people like it, some people hate it, and some people are perpetually confused by it. At the end of the day, who cares. The controller wouldn't matter a hoot if there were no good games to play.

[wiggyx]

That's a nice big lump of "well I never had that problem." Well, good for you. I wish everybody was that lucky.

I think the N64 controller has always been either a love it or hate it device. I loved it at the time, but it sure does feel really weird today :/

[understatement]

Aussie2B I don't think you understand what Ed was trying to say but I'll let him explain if I'm right and he wants to again.

I will say that I only answered with my opinion and I stick by it that I find all N64 games the worst with the original controller and can only play games on it with the Hori mini pad, I asked for no rebuttal and didn't demonize the N64 controller only stated what I find wrong with it, the same can be said about Ed. After that all the fans of the controller start insisting that they can't understand how someone can feel this way, to which would seem more explaining would be necessary and that's what's throwing this off.

[A Black Falcon]

N64: Very small surface area. Holding the controller so that you can press the left shoulder at any time, and quickly press either the d-pad or the main joystick, requires holding the left wing, rather like the Dual Shock in practice. I know there is a "grasp the center" method, but this seems wrong because then you give up using the L button at any time. However, I find that I have to stretch my thumb a good ways out to get to the center joystick. Having gotten there, I also find my thumb tends to slide off the center joystick nub - especially with up-left or down-right directional inputs. This is why I talk about pain from putting your fingers up against that thin hard disk, and this is why people play Mario party by placing the joystick against the center of their palms.

So ytou're holding the controller incorrectly, and then complain that the controller is uncomfortable to hold when you use it wrong? That's just absurd, and needless to say is a fundamentally flawed argument.

But yeah, of course it is uncomfortable when used incorrectly! Hold the controller correctly, by holding the center with your left hand and the right with your right hand, and most of your complaints will disappear. Your idea that you actually need to use the d-pad or L button much is bizarre, because there are no N64 games that require you to frequently use those buttons and the analog stick and Z button at the same time, or at least there aren't any that I have played, and I own over 150 N64 games. There are a handful of gmaes that use the dpad or L button for some rarely-used function like turning on or off the map in Zelda OoT, but that's about it.

Seriously, your entire argument is pretty much completely negated by the fact htat you're basing it all on holding the controller incorrectly. Have you ever opened an N64 game manual, and looked at the pictures of how you're supposed to hold the controller? It's left and right for dpad games, center and right for analog stick games. There is no other sane way to hold the N64 controller. I've seen people make this "I hold it on the left and then reach over uncomfortably to the center stick" argument before, though I've never seen someone in real life who did something so bizarre as that while holding an N64 controller, and generally assume that it's something said, again, mostly by Sony fans wanting to bash the N64 controller.

Try holding the controller correctly next time. Maybe read an N64 manual before playing the game and look at the pictures on the third page. They show you how to hold it. And no, it is NOT complicated. As I said, I've never seen even one person in real life hold the controller wrong. It should take about five seconds to figure out how it's correctly held. Now maybe two-prong controllers can be figured out even faster than that, but I don't think that a couple of additional seconds means anything whatsoever, and would never agree if someone said that the N64 controller was too complicated or something. It isn't. It's pretty simple, really, and is not hard to figure out. I knew how to hold it from the first time I saw one in person, and I'm sure I was not the only one.

Aussie2B I don't think you understand what Ed was trying to say but I'll let him explain if I'm right and he wants to again.

I will say that I only answered with my opinion and I stick by it that I find all N64 games the worst with the original controller and can only play games on it with the Hori mini pad, I asked for no rebuttal and didn't demonize the N64 controller only stated what I find wrong with it, the same can be said about Ed. After that all the fans of the controller start insisting that they can't understand how someone can feel this way, to which would seem more explaining would be necessary and that's what's throwing this off.

No, what he's saying is very clear: he's complaining about the controller because he's holding it wrong and then griping about that. The N64 controller is not designed so that you can use both the analog stick and d-pad at the same time, it's an either/or design. And for games from that time, that's just fine.

(As for the Dreamcast, it needed that d-pad next to the analog stick because they removed two of the face buttons from the superior Saturn 3D Controller when making it, and with the face buttons, say, for movement in a FPS, that leaves nothing for the other functions which on the N64 would go on the A and B buttons. So, dpad.)

[YoshiM]

I too never ever understood the hate the N64 controller. By far for me in that generation it was the most comfortable and versatile controller for what the system was geared towards: 3D games. Hold the center prong like a pistol, rest your thumb on top-what more is there? I tolerate my PS3's controllers as it still feels awkward to extend my thumbs for the two sticks, but then again I have small hands (dang Carnie blood in me).

My best and worst? The N64 is one of my fave systems, so it ranks up there with picking one of your kids as your favorite. I have to ponder this.

[CelticJobber]

Best:

5. WWF Wrestlemania 2000
4. WCW/nWo Revenge
3. Perfect Dark
2. WWF No Mercy
1. Zelda: OoT

Honorable Mentions:

Donkey Kong 64
Wave Race
1080 Snowboarding
San Francisco Rush
Mortal Kombat 4
Zelda: Majora's Mask
Conker's Bad Fur Day
Bio Freaks

Worst:
Hey You, Pikachu!
Pokemon Snap!

[Daltone]

Hold the center prong like a pistol, rest your thumb on top-what more is there?

No, what he's saying is very clear: he's complaining about the controller because he's holding it wrong and then griping about that. The N64 controller is not designed so that you can use both the analog stick and d-pad at the same time, it's an either/or design. And for games from that time, that's just fine.

As far as I am aware - this is "wrong":



It just looks awkward. I've never seen anyone hold one like this (not my hands by the way..)

This, on the other hand...



Is how everyone has ever met has held one (for 95% of games where you don't need the D-Pad).

I agree that the analogue stick is crap. I don't think that it is the best laid out controller ever. It is ok. Not bad. The GC controller, on the other hand, is a nightmare!

[The Adventurer]

The GC controller, on the other hand, is a nightmare!

What? The GCN controller is the most comfortable controller ever created by man or god.

Edit: also who in their right mind would hold the N64 controller as shown in pic 1? How would you press the Z Trigger?

[Daltone]

What? The GCN controller is the most comfortable controller ever created by man or god.

Edit: also who in their right mind would hold the N64 controller as shown in pic 1? How would you press the Z Trigger?

I know lots of people like the GC* conroller but I hate the damn thing. It's always felt awkward to me, even after hours of use. Even the fatty Xbox controller and the Jaguar "WTF is this?" felt more comfortable.


* (side note - why is it always GCN? I get "GC" as Game Cube. "N" is Nintendo? So it is "Game Cube Nintendo"? Surely NGC would make more sense. Or am I miles off?)

[o.pwuaioc]

* (side note - why is it always GCN? I get "GC" as Game Cube. "N" is Nintendo? So it is "Game Cube Nintendo"? Surely NGC would make more sense. Or am I miles off?)

This is Nintendo's doing, for whatever reason. http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/sys...uble_sound.jsp

"Are you using any accessories that didn't come with your GCN? Unlicensed products are not fully compatible and may not work correctly."

Also, I knew of folks who used the N64 controller the first way. They absolutely sucked at anything competitive (like Mario Kart 64), but alas, I couldn't break them of the habit.

[understatement]

Well, I could be wrong then if he's holding it as the first picture shows.

With the second picture, if you’re able to maintain that hand posture for prolonged periods of time more power to you. As for me I don’t like the feeling of developing carpal tunnel in my left hand so I position my wrists at about the same angle from each other and if you do that you get the cater-cornered angle I was talking about.

*Edit* I meant right hand.

[Daltone]

With the second picture, if you’re able to maintain that hand posture for prolonged periods of time more power to you. As for me I don’t like the feeling of developing carpal tunnel in my left hand so I position my wrists at about the same angle from each other and if you do that you get the cater-cornered angle I was talking about.

I think I tend to bring the N64 controller closer to me and point the face buttons more towards may chest than I would with, say, a Playstation controller. That bends my wrists "out" away from the controller. Anyway! Yeah, it's ok.

o.pwuaioc - thanks for that. I've always sort of wondered.